Landing leg

Highheat55,

quote:

“Just about everytime after pitching, my left knee is pretty sore”

This is the result of how you drop in from you’re leg lifted traditional pitching mechanics where you land with a locked in glove side foot stopping all previously gained forwards momentum that puts the first type of diskinetic stressful action into play.
Pushing off with your groin to then pushing back to stop this previously gained inertia

quote:

“I don't know if it has to be the way I plant my foot”

Traditional Foot plant is the first consideration.
The second is during ball drive since your foot is locked in from keeping you’re bodies mass behind the plant foot when you rotate the hips the femur rotates within the socket by staying static with it’s Fossa (socket)moving in rotation causing extreme stress from the now fully ranged in motion angled Ball (head) and socket of the hip made worse depending on how much recovery back bend you perform. This mal stress translates right into the knee that is not designed to handle lateral twisting forces that is produced by you’re mechanic.

You are rolling the ball across the socket like a mortar and pestle somewhat like you’re shoulder does when it decelerates causing Labrum problems with both joints and other complications like inflammation etc.
The problem manifests itself at all levels but is not perceived as a problem by most because it is not talked about much but puts many in the MLB on the DL.

Many X-MLB players end up with knee and hip replacement surgeries, you have heard of Tommy John surgery but did you know he had complete hip replacement also.
This is why Dr.Marshall is trying to bring the Crowstep rhythm to the mound with his bottom half tenets, these tenets can be lesser but helpfully performed even with the useless leg lift. Dr.Marshall himself has had complete knee repacement because of this destructive bottom half mechanic.

quote:

“if I am doing something wrong”

The Fix,

Stay tall, stride shorter, let you’re plant foot land heal to toe the way we walk, trot and run then rolling around with the rotation of you’re leg and bodies mass. You’re toes should stay in line with the frontal direction with you’re knee all the way through ball drive and release finish.
Firm you’re leg up when it is fully extended with you’re knee at you’re second post position. Attain 180 degrees of free flowing rotation with out any kinetic (locking in the foot) chain discontinuities.

How about some low quality U-tube video to ponder?

Post a YouTube, then we can give some practical advice.

Your knee problem could very well be that you are landing to much on your heel causing your front leg to lock up. You do not want to land on your heel. You want to land basically on the balls of your foot with you chest over a slightly bent front knee.

quote:

Originally posted by NIC15:
You do not want to land on your heel. You want to land basically on the balls of your foot with you chest over a slightly bent front knee.

Can you provide a link to a MLB pitcher that does not land on their heel first?

quote:

Originally posted by SultanofSwat:

quote:

Originally posted by NIC15:
You do not want to land on your heel. You want to land basically on the balls of your foot with you chest over a slightly bent front knee.

Can you provide a link to a MLB pitcher that does not land on their heel first?

I sure can. But I prefer to give advise based on years of personal experience as a player, and coach. I am sure you can give me some regurgitated belief based coaching thoughts that are not your own, but I prefer to be original.

Can you provide me with a link to any MLB Pitcher that says that you should land on your heel first?

I'm with NIC15 that looking to see if you are landing on the heel is a good place to start for finding a fix.

You don't want to land on the heel when pitching. I did watch several videos and most of them were landing on the ball of their foot with a few who would land on what looked like the entire bottom of the foot. I never saw anybody land strictly on the heel and roll onto the rest of the foot.

When you hit heel first you are not athletic and when the foot does land that is the most athletic part of the pitching motion. If you want to be an effective pitcher (or athlete) then you got to end up landing on the ball of your foot.

quote:

Originally posted by SultanofSwat:

quote:

Originally posted by NIC15:
You do not want to land on your heel. You want to land basically on the balls of your foot with you chest over a slightly bent front knee.

Can you provide a link to a MLB pitcher that does not land on their heel first?

Here you go.

http://www.pitchingclips.com/

In the lead clip it looks like Lincecum is landing on the heal, but look at it closely and he lands flat. In general you want to land flat to slightly toward the ball of the feet. Ideal is flat.

That said pitching with pain regardless of landing is a problem and should be checked out by a Dr.

If you look at the Lincecum clip by frame, he lands on his heel. He is pretty effective.

Babe Ruth landed on his heel when batting, so do many many others. Should we not land on our heel when batting also?

If you have a long stride while pitching or hitting you will land on your heel. The key is to have a bent knee when landing.

quote:

Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
If you look at the Lincecum clip by frame, he lands on his heel. He is pretty effective.

Babe Ruth landed on his heel when batting, so do many many others. Should we not land on our heel when batting also?

If you have a long stride while pitching or hitting you will land on your heel. The key is to have a bent knee when landing.

Babe Ruth landed on his heel when batting? Did you see him play? Come on let's start being realistic. And the answer is NO! you are not supposed to land on your heel when batting.

And actually you are wrong about having a long stride causing you to land on your heel, it's actually the opposite. If your stride is to short you often land on your heel, cutting you off.

It appears that Lincecum almost lands on his heel but at the last second lands flat.

Thanks for the Video YGD. Very helpful

quote:

Originally posted by YoungGunDad:
It appears that Lincecum almost lands on his heel but at the last second lands flat.

Anyone can look at this by frame in Quicktime. Lincecum lands on his heel, then 7 frames later, gets the front of his foot down.

quote:

Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
Babe Ruth landed on his heel when batting, so do many many others.

oops, NIC is correct. I had the Babe confused. He did not land on his heel. He landed on the front of his foot, then "spins" on his heel, just like Jim Thome.

SoS: I hope this does not turn into the hair splitting that we see in the hitting forum. You are correct that long striders touch on the heal, the weight transfer is on the flat foot and you are correct the key is a bent leg. You will generally see that most land flat to the balls of the feet, but like anything there are exceptions.

From the clips I've looked at most mlb pitchers land close to flat. More land heel first than ball of the foot first. It scares me to look at Frankie Rodriguez but he lands very heel first and is very effective. The key in all this is to land as close to flat as possible. The worst thing to do relative to being an effective pitcher is land too much ball of the foot first. When you land ball of the foot first it is very difficult to maintain the momentum. You can maintain it easily either flat or heel first. The worst thing as far as putting stress on the knee is landing too heel first, but it works pretty well as far as pitching well goes.

The Lincecum clip above is hard to decipher as it isn't anywhere near 30 fps but Lincecum clearly lands heel first. You can tell from the angle of the foot when the heel first touches.

Teaching kids to land ball of the foot first is one of those myths that messes up a lot of kids and it can be a tough habit to break.

Nic15,

quote:

“Can you provide me with a link to any MLB Pitcher that says that you should land on your heel first?”

Here is one with a Doctorate in kinesiology who has already changed a major sports mechanic QB passing 35 years ago. Dr.MikeMarshall.com

All human forwards motion dictates a heel to toe kinesiological action to be able to conserve bodily inertia where the goal is to keep the mass moving forwards during drive and continues forwards during release. This is how we are built for this action.
To produce a stopping action just achieve ball to heel kinesiological action where the bodily mass stays behind the plant foot. as in the traditional pitching motion.
You will notice when traditional leg lifters transfer from heel to toe they end up at the ball but then never use this foot again for propulsion the way it should be performed by then turning and rolling across with a then lifted (extended) foot allowing you to attain 180 degrees of rotation putting you in the classic safe drop-step position defensive postural finish instead of the vulnerable traditional back bent, backside leg up with only on foot in contact with the ground.

quote:

“And actually you are wrong about having a long stride causing you to land on your heel”

In pitching he is actually right but very wrong about the batting but he corrected himself.

quote:

“If your stride is to short you often land on your heel,

You have this backwards, when you stride long you have a propensity to land heel first because you mass is so far behind your plant foot, giving you less chance at achieving useful rotation.
If you stride short it is more difficult to land heel first but is still performed well this way but now you can rotate from a taller position and roll across to the ball then up on your toes still driving.

quote:

“cutting you off”

Cutting you off of what? The only thing cut off is forwards inertia and ability to rotate by striding long making this stress we are actually talking about more acute.

Coach2709,

quote:

“landing on the heel is a good place to start for finding a fix”

The fix will be to aleve the locking in of the foot and leg as the body centrifugally rotates around the static unit in the traditional motion.

quote:

”You don't want to land on the heel when pitching”

This notion taught by many is the gateway to all the hip, leg and ankle injuries that have plagued traditional pitchers forever.
When you try to attain ball or flat first action you’re brain intuitively balks and does it correctly anyway but more poorly performed than if you voluntarily do it the way you are built. It also makes you perform the locked in foot mechanic that twists up the leg line during drive and finish.

quote:

“I did watch several videos and most of them were landing on the ball of their foot”

I would suggest you do not look at MLB pitchers to figure out how to perform healthy mechanics!

quote:

I never saw anybody land strictly on the heel and roll onto the rest of the foot.

With grainy 30 frames a second video or slow gifs this cannot easily be seen but that lincecum video is over 200 frames a second and shows precisely how most perform it.
None of them roll across and rotate their plant leg and foot because they can’t, their mass has come to a complete stop before the ball even starts forwards. They all finish in a dangerous balancing recovery act where the foot is still planted flat to the ground.

quote:

“When you hit heel first you are not athletic”

All athletes perform heel to toe unless they are driving backwards.

quote:

“when the foot does land that is the most athletic part of the pitching motion”

quote:

“you got to end up landing on the ball of your foot”

Precisely and this is what happens, you end up there after you’re heel hits also.

Sultanoswat,

quote:

“Should we not land on our heel when batting also?”

No you want all forwards body mass to stop and rotate around the front side axis by landing toe to heal, this is why the traditional pitching motion uses none of the early bodily inertia gained from its crotch drive.

BOF,

quote:

“I hope this does not turn into the hair splitting that we see in the hitting forum”

Everybody has an opinion, let them have it, we are talking about injuries from his mechanic that is much more important than the non-injurious batting battles that can be performed many ways.

Cadad,

quote:

“The key in all this is to land as close to flat as possible”

This will ensure continued injurious effect with our original poster

quote:

“When you land ball of the foot first it is very difficult to maintain the momentum”

When you end up at your ball with your foot flat momentum ends anyways with out the next extension of the foot where you turn the plant foot with you’re knee by rolling up to the toes.

quote:

“The worst thing as far as putting stress on the knee is landing too heel first”

This is absolutely wrong! just ask Usain Bolt

quote:

“but it works pretty well as far as pitching well goes”

It works well to cause this injury and many other bottom half and lower back ones.

quote:

“The Lincecum clip above is hard to decipher as it isn't anywhere near 30 fps”

You have this backwards! It is much easier to decipher because there is 8 times as much information and is a delight to see a High speed GIF with over 240 frames for a change.

quote:

”Teaching kids to land ball of the foot first is one of those myths that messes up a lot of kids and it can be a tough habit to break”

Amen!

Highheat 55,

Here is a pic of Babe Ruth actually pitching, notice how his glove side foot is locked in incorrectly even though he finishes higher than most causing less rotational twisting stress but still considerable because he does not release it with his body rotation just as it is done today.
Look at the stress in the knee where the knee has no ability to absorb this stress and does not articulate in this way.





In just a few years we have had many hip, knee and ankle stress reaction posts here at HSBW that can all be mechanically mitigated by rotating the foot and leg through drive and release, you guy’s need to give this a try.

WRONG YARDBIRD. Stopping actually transfers energy. Unless you can stop the earth with your stride, you actually need to stop to transfer energy. All fielders throw better BY STOPPING.

Your best pitcher is that way because he is ignoring several of Marshall's tenets.

You know what Yardbird I believe you are correct. That is the best post I've seen you post so far and it's opened my eyes. I'm going to go back and re-read everything you've put and research Marshall mechanics so I can start coaching my players the correct way. Thank you for the eye opening experience.

By the way this kool aid tastes GREAT!!!! Do you have any more??? You guys need to try the kool aid. I think it's cherry.

Actually, if you watch sprinters you will see that out of the blocks, they are exclusively on the balls of their feet. Once they reach full stride, their lead (stride) leg goes out with the toe pointed upwards but at about 12" abv. the ground it flattens out and touches down on the ball of the foot often looking as if they barely touch the track. Hence, track spikes are only on the ball of the shoe.

Comparing pitching to running or walking is moronic. Totally different set of kinetics.