Lets Talk Pitching - Ask/Discussion about pitching from professional instructor

This was your first post.

This was your second post.

You referred to some of us as the stubborn majority.

That right there gave me a challenge to challenge.

 

In a discussion with son who plays baseball, the scenario is much different for a starter vs reliever. I understand that most HS players train as starters, but let me ask you a question and here is your challenge, how do YOU train pitchers, what plan do you lay out for them to do each day? Long distance running, sprints, poles, swim, weight training, agility excercises, yoga, etc (ask me if you don't understand what etc means.

 

Nolan Ryan demonstrated that you can have a long pitching career by having a consistent work out regimen.   In Nolan Ryan's Pitching Bible he talks about cardio part of his training and how it helped his stamina. 

 

I added 4 pages from his book where he mentions running, for what it's worth. 

 

 

Where did anyone say one should not run.  The issue is that pitching is not aerobic but anerobic and should incorporate training with that in mind.
BTW here is a story of two pitchers. One ran all the time one never did. Guess which guy went the distance almost every outing?
Every person is different. Just because it worked for one guy doesnt mean it will for the next.

I know what my first post was, I am new to the neighborhood and did jot know all of the website rules but once I found out, I will never make that mistake again Sir. TPM. With neighbors like you who would needs an enemy, do u always have to be right?

I've kind of stayed out of this latest round...part of the reason is because for some reason, anytime folks have differing experiences / opinions, it tends to get "chippy" in here, which I hope does not keep others from offering their valued opinions.

 

No doubt there are different ways to skin the cat, and not all sizes fit all.. In fact there are too many "gurus" out there that have put together a "one size fits all" program, and IMO especially for pitchers, there are too many robots out there trying to mimic certain "positions" that have been "scientifically" claimed to be the "proper" mechanics.  I agree there are to some degree, a certain amount of physical training, and mechanical efficiencies that are pretty much given, however I have seen too many "ex college / ex professional" pitchers that really know very little about the complex sequence of events that occur in pitching.  I have also seen many robotic / uncoordinated pitchers on the mound, where their " instructors" have coached the athleticism right out of them.

 

Full disclosure:  my bio on this site references myself as a pitching coach.  I am, however in college I was a position player.  What makes me think I can coach pitching, without a resume of ever stepping foot on the rubber in a high level baseball game?  I would venture a good guess, that I have spent more time, and much more money than most folks that ever read this site, to learn.  I have trained / learned in person with the the best in the business, folks that are referenced on this site by many:  Cressey, Nyman, Boddy, Mills, Wolforth, Wheeler,House... all of which I have the good fortune to have be introduced to, and spent time and resources to travel and learn. 

 

Having had the ability to spend time with these folks, I would not go as far as to say that I agree 100% with all they teach, in fact with some of it, I do not.  All this to say, that while none of us are arguing that the first edition of Windows is as good as the latest, we also know that technology / science as it relates to developing high level pitchers has also advanced, and to ignore that is cheating the pitchers that are being instructed.  Are there better ways of getting cardio than hitting the pavement, YES.  Are some constants the same as they were many years ago, YES.  Does one have to have pitched at a high level to understand, and teach it...NO.  There are some folks out there that are collecting $ from lessons that claim elite status as instructors, that are stealing from their clients....all behind the claim that they pitched in college, etc.....I think PG Staff has posted several times that some of the biggest thieves out there are the numerous claimed "Pitching Instructors"....it is really shameful. 

 

I think discussions like this are beneficial, although unless someone asks  specific questions, the more general ones tend to get off track, and lead to many disagreements.  Hopefully folks can weed through the personality conflicts, and take the differing advice, and form their own opinions.

DeePee,

 

Not to infringe on your discussion(s) with TPM, but He is a She.

well said again, back foot slider, you make a lot of valid points. I thought I was getting into a discussion as well but I felt I got ambushed because I made the cardinal mistake of solicting myself. However I have heard some very educated remarks from this forum. At the end of the day, the road to the big leagues or even playing at a D1 college is very competitive

Well my apologies again, I just feel TPM attacks all that seem to opposE but this is a discussion site

 

Back Foot Slider ,
Great post. Thank you.

Deepee,
You came here soliciting for biz and your resume included being a former pitcher.  I dont think that qualifies anyone for the job.  You completely ignored opinions of others.  FWIW from what I have learned no way would I pay anyone a dime who tells son the secret to longer outings is running.
No way even if I am not a sir!

And I am definetly stubborn!
By the way awaiting on your training for pitchers.
Just want to know if I would pay someone what I would expect?

I never claimed running will make you last longer, I said running should be apart of program whether it is treadmill or outside and I stand by it, you should and will do some running as a Professinal or collegiate player, so why not learn it and love it now.  

Running...as in...long distance?

I am starting to see why texting and discussion pages like this can become extinct. People seem to misinterpret your intentions. For all I have offended, my apologies, I will stick with race to face speaking. I am out of my element with this group. Again my apologies

No not long distance, sprints, dashes, 2 miles is good, if that is  considered long then yes. As a starter, a couple of miles should be good

Why would you bow out? I asked a question. What type of running program do you suggest for pitchers? 
BTW did you read where long distance running eventually  got to Ryan's knees and back?

I dont know where you ever thought no one said not to run. All pitchers run poles.
But the difference is running should not be the primary source for cardio.  I think that was the inpression that I got from your discussion.

       
       


To me (and I don't know where it comes from but I have a theory) this is where the anti running thing comes from. Pitching like any other single contraction activity is not anaerobic. It would only be anaerobic if you sprinted to the mound and then threw. Just like the start of a sprint is not anaerobic. It doesn't become anaerobic until your body is producing energy faster than you can take in oxygen. If the pitchers hands are on his knees trying to catch his breath them yes but as long as he has oxygen it's not anaerobic.

My theory as to where it comes from. It's comes from an illogical assuption. Pitching is explosive. In an explosive movement we use fast twitch muscles. Fast twitch muscles produce ATP anaerobicly. Then the assuption if it's explosive it's anaerobic. No. All muscle fibers use ATP and they don't know nor care how that ATP was formed. Fast twitch muscles will use ATP produced from slow twitch muscles. The rate at which your body produces the ATP has nothing to do with the contraction itself.

So why do we train explosively to increase explosion. Well it's said that the speed our muscle contracts is supposedly determined when forming. So basically your born with muscle contraction already at top speed. However the sequencing of the muscle contraction can theoretically be altered and made more efficient and therefore faster. We do that by doing explosive contractions. For the same reason your muscles will get stronger when put under stress. Your contraction sequence will get better under stress. Well in theory anyway.

Away point is. Using fast twitch muscle fibers does not make an activity anaerobic. Using the energy produced from fast twitch fibers does.

Oh and if you ask then why does a pitcher who's aerobicly fit fatigue. I don't know but theorize it's the same reason a pitcher who's anaerobicly fit does. Right now I would make the assuption it's from a number of things all added together with muscle damage being a primary culprit.

I train football players mostly and they don't deal with single contraction activities. They are mostly rapid multi-contraction. So it's different theory's. I have started studying on it quite a bit thought since the start of this discussion.

Regardless of a few of the little arguments in this thread I am very thankful for it. It has sparked my intrest in studying something different and made me re think the way I look at some things. To me that's about the best outcome one can have on a discussion board.

The one thing that disturbs me is the lack of discussion about core strength which is very valuable for strength not only pitchers but for all athletes even runners.  My impression is that this is very important when organizations look to draft players. How well will a pitcher hold up for the season may be determined by considering core strength not how many miles the pitcher runs.

My interpretation bt deepee was that to be a better pitcher one must go back to the lost art of running.

Just sayin.....