Lets Talk Pitching - Ask/Discussion about pitching from professional instructor

I got a question for you. When I am analyzing video of my bullpens, who should I compare myself to? I am left handed if that matters.

Thanks for your time here, BBallinstructor

 

My question is how often should bullpens be done and should they be part of a regular routine?  Our HS Spring teams (Fr to V) and our Legion teams do no bullpens, so they basically get no work in between starts.  Our pitchers, from Freshman up to V, have struggled this season and I feel this has a lot to do with it.  There are a few kids who have done fine, but they are the exception.  In general, what should pitchers do to stay sharp during the season, especially since there's not much time for lessons this time of year.

Thats a good question nspeltz11 and a complicated question.  

 

Try to identify the type of pitcher you are and the type of mechanics you have and find an mlb pitcher with a similar delivery.  An important thing to think about is that we are all different and require unique checkpoints throughout our deliveries.  So trying to copy another persons mechanics might not give YOU the best results.  If you're watching video of a pro, find checkpoints that include balance, head position, direction(glove side), lower half shift, height throughout the pitch, and balance at the end.  Watch how it all works together with rhythm then try to find that for yourself.  Look for the same things when your analyzing your own video.  It should all be smooth, balanced, and repeatable.  Check out this article for how to work efficiently.

  Keep me posted on how its going.  Try to find more than one MLB to watch, see how they are different yet work the same with common checkpoints.  Hope this helps. 

Cavtrooper,

 

Time on the mound between outings is very important.  Not only is it a time to work on new things but its a time to forget about the bad things.  The bullpens do not need to be at 100%, especially this time of the year.  I would keep it to one bullpen session between starts/outings with the focus being on maintaining a good feel for pitching.  Not sure if you golf but think of it as time on the range.  Get some kinks out, work on stuff, forget stuff but overall just trying to keep the feel.  If a mound is not accessible between starts then work in a "flat ground" routine into the throwing program.  Have his throwing partner squat for about 12 pitches after warming up.  Keep the distance short and the velocity at 60%.  Pitching mechanics are just like a golf swing.  You never figure it out, you just hope to maintain?  

If I start every Friday. What would be a routine to do for bullpen. Run Sat? light throw Sun? Bullpen Mon (how many? FB, CU, CB)? Throw Tue? Light pen Wed?

 

I know it cant be exact, but can you give a skeleton schedule?

You are on the right track with your routine.  Try the following program

 

Friday  - Pitch

Saturday - Light Throw, Distance Run (20 Minute Min)

Sunday - Regular throwing amount, long toss is ok to help with soreness.  Distance/Sprint work.  Workout routine if you have one

Monday - Bullpen Session (25 - 30 pitches)  Work on what you need to work on from previous game. I recommend 3 of each pitch from the wind up and 3 of each from the stetch.  command your fastball. Run - whatever you feel up to

Tuesday - Regular throwing or day off is fine, sprint work

Wednesday - "Touch/Feel" bullpen.  nice and easy just to keep the feel of the mound.  maybe 15 pitches at 60 percent.  distance run

Thursday - Light throwing.  Sprints

Friday - Dominate

Your awesome, Thanks Instructor 50

BaseballInstructor50- I'm curious to hear your thoughts about how distance running enhances a pitcher's performance.

 

Distance running does a few of things for a pitcher.  

The running gets the blood pumping and moving to help relieve soreness in the arm and body.  When a pitcher feels less sore he is able to get back into action throwing again.  It serves as a way to recover quicker, feel better and could help avoid later injuries.

It also provides an opportunity to build endurance.  A pitcher that is in shape can pitch longer in long innings, long games, and long seasons.  Running can help keep pitchers physically fit to perform.

Last but not least, when you are on a distance run, you have a lot of time to think and a lot of time to listen to your inner dialogue.  That voice inside your head that says keep going or quit, Ive had enough.  Its the same voice you listen to when your on the mound.  So in your distance running, push yourself and learn how to make yourself go when the going gets tough.  

Knowing the purpose of distance running and then getting it done will give you confidence on the mound.

Curious, what are your credentials?

please explain more your opinion on how running helps soreness. 

My credentials, 

 

Played professionally for 10 years,

7 different organizations

Cup of coffee in the MLB, 

Also played in Puerto Rico, Mexico, and Korea

 

 

Long distance running helps for pitchers. So does sprints

 

throwing may not be an pure anaerobic contraction. If you had pitched 50 throws in 100 seconds, then I can see more pure anaerobic activty. Pitching for 2 hours would be considered more aerobic. You don't see pitchers with 26 inch pythons. Most of the references above are just opinions. And the ones that are experiments are not specific to baseball pitching.

 

btw instructor50, there is a history here at HSB be some to be anti distance. 

 

Basketball and football is all about explosion. I'm sure they do distance running also

 

 

" we''re not athletes, we're baseball players " Mr Baseball

LABall- I appreciate your opinion. However, I'll wait for science to disprove the science I've provided before reevaluating my stance. I'd encourage you to not only read through the links I've provided, but to take a look at the credentials of the individuals that wrote the pieces. I've never seen evidence that long distance running is beneficial, nor have I heard any experts on the matter say anything contrary to all the info I provided. The "anti-distance" sentiment you described - of which I am probably the leader - is rooted in scientific evidence. I stand strongly behind my word, and based on the evidence. 2+2=4. No baseball players should run any distance. There is simply too much evidence stating the lack of benefit to the exercise. If a coach wishes to ignore the evidence, that is unfortunate and is something I cannot control. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

Any injuries as a pitcher? 

Just curious if so, what were they. What do u think caused them-background on your experiences as a youth pitcher. When u started, how many innings did u average in travel teams, HS, and did u pitch in Fall too/year round.

thanks

Never any serious arm injuries.  I missed a couple of weeks with some bicep tendinitis but that was it.

I pitched all through my baseball career from little league to the big leagues.  While pitching wasn't my primary position until college, I did pitch when needed throughout spring and summer leagues in my youth.

It wasn't until college that I got into a pitching program that included a consistent throwing, conditioning (distance running and sprints) and workout routine.  The program helped to increase my velocity and keep my arm healthy.  My opinion and recommendation is to absolutely DO distance running (a nice slow jog for a minimum of 20 minutes, walking is ok if needed) to your pitching routine.  The goal is to get your heart rate up and flush out the soreness.  Whether that's distance running, biking, elliptical, etc... just get it done.

JH keep fighting the good fight!  Slowly people will have to believe when hit with enough facts.

 

bbinstruct.  please read the articles above.  It's ok to change.  I would have complete respect for a coach willing to progress.

Originally Posted by BaseballInstructor50:

…The goal is to get your heart rate up and flush out the soreness….

 

I get the trying to get the rate up, but I’m not quite sure I understand how the soreness gets “flushed”. I’ve heard similar things, and they usually have something to do with lactic acid.

 

 

I've read that soreness is from sm micro tears in muscle not assoc w lactic acid, which leaves body after 60 min. If activity/pitching causes lactic acid to build how does running a more strenuous activity get rid of it? Wouldn't it causemore? What is newest info show?

First baseballinstruct I think it is a great thread you started and it is good to have a place where questions can be asked and answered. You certainly have the resume and it is great you are here.  

 

I thought the same thing as JH when I saw your post regarding post recovery. 4-5 years ago it was considered appropriate to run 2-3 miles after pitching "to get the blood flowing for recovery and removing the lactic acid" and it was standard practice and it made sense at the time. Well now 5 years later and with more studies done on the subject distance running for baseball players is not considered the optimum, there is no such thing as lactic acid caused soreness in pitching. Same thing with weighted balls, lifting for pitchers, icing, 120 ft throwing limit,  etc.

 

My point is that I think it is important for you, if plan to do this as a profession to read up and discuss with the real leaders in the field. Ron Wolforth, Kyle Body (driveline baseball) Eric Cressey, Bret Strom,  are just a few that are taking a hard look at what has been done in the past and questioning and challenging what athletes are told to do, "just because that is the way it is done"

 

From my reading on the subject (and I am not an expert by any means) the modern thinking is that:

 

1. Distance running has limited benefits for baseball players, and in fact makes them slower.

2. Weight lifting for pitchers can make a huge difference in velocity and longevity.Quick question, What is the single best lift a pitcher can do? Who would have thought it was a "deadlift". (at least not me anyways)

3. Yoga is great for the general population for health and flexibility, but baseball players are better off doing specific stretching and using micro rolling to improve flexibility where it is required.

4. Weighted baseball programs are not only beneficial in velocity development but recovery.

 

 

JH provided some links but I would encourage you to read and be in touch with your peers  particularly the ones that are really questioning historical practices and are trying to understand what is optimal. These include P3 sports in Santa Barbara, Eric Cressey, Drivelinebaseball, Wolforth, and others.

Originally Posted by BOF:

…

1. Distance running has limited benefits for baseball players, and in fact makes them slower.

2. Weight lifting for pitchers can make a huge difference in velocity and longevity.Quick question, What is the single best lift a pitcher can do? Who would have thought it was a "deadlift". (at least not me anyways)

3. Yoga is great for the general population for health and flexibility, but baseball players are better off doing specific stretching and using micro rolling to improve flexibility where it is required.

4. Weighted baseball programs are not only beneficial in velocity development but recovery….

 

I am NOT arguing here, just curious. Are you saying you’ve read scientific studies that gave you your belief about the above? If you, can you provide links?

I don't keep all of the links on the information I have read over the years, but will look through some of my stuff and see what I can find. The two places I know I have read is at Eric Cressey's and drivelinebaseball's site. Dr Bogonzi did his Phd on weighted baseball development over 20 years ago and I know I have some PDF's on the subject, but the modern weighted baseball programs are completely different now, drivelinebaseball has some stuff on them and of course Ron Wolforth. I believe ASMI (or one of their Dr's) did the lactic acid study if I recall correctly. Check out the p3 sports web page it will give you a very good perspective on what is going on in the high performance training of athletes. 

 

I have an interesting story on the long distance running. When my son was a Soph in HS (my goodness 5 years ago....) I ran into a track coach who was working with HS sprinters and he agreed to help my son on speed development, technique, etc. So he would go out a couple days a week with a group of sprinters and work with them. I was talking to the coach and he said that he does not allow any of his sprinters to do any distance running as it slowed them down. At the time that is what baseball players were told to do, and I thought to myself this does not make sense. So I followed up with him and we discussed it. He did not know much about baseball training but said that in his opinion baseball players should be doing repetitive sprints just like he did with his track athletes. He had data that for his track athletes who did cross country running that they came back in track season much slower than when they left him. Looking back now it makes total sense, but not long ago distance running was considered the optimal exercise. 

BOF ~ Are you aware of a deadlift that works best?  Work on all variations?

I love Brent Strom, former pitching coach of mine.  

I have and will continue to provide youth pitchers with a pitching program that consists of distance running.  Not only was it something that I personally did that contributed to my success but I continue to see it work with the kids that I have instructed over the past 10 years..

Pitchers and parents of pitchers, let me know if you have any other questions about pitching.

I have no idea CatsPop, here is a link to a couple of Erik Cressey suggestions.

 

http://www.ericcressey.com/5-g...y-strength-exercises

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gckx6_2lyZQ

 

 

BaseballInstructor50- Even with ALL the evidence saying that distance running is bad for pitchers, there's still no way to convince you to stop? Really? Every expert in the field says that it's bad, but you want to continue to do it? That makes absoluteIy no sense to me whatsoever. I promise you, with 100% confidence, that your success was because of your talent and not because of your distance running. Having players run distance will not help them. No evidence has ever come out on the contrary. I understand that you did it during your playing career - I did too. But that doesn't mean it's beneficial. Continuing to have your clients run distance will not help them, and I would not be able to recommend your services to anyone in good faith for their long-term well being if you continue this practice.

 

If there is anyone reading that I CAN convince to stop running distance, please speak up here or in private. I don't really know what else I can do - all of the evidence I provided above is quite overwhelming and plentiful - but I'll most certainly try. Distance running is bad for baseball, and no one should do it. 

 

BOF- thanks for the contributions.

 

I like that you are so passionate about stopping baseball players from distance running. Very odd but I can appreciate it.

As I tell the many pitchers that I have worked with and gone on to play in college and pro ball.  Stick with the program.  Adjust when necessary but be consistent with your throwing program, running (distance and sprint work), workouts, and stretch.  

My talent got me noticed but the entire program (running included) kept me around and kept me healthy so that I could improve and develop my talent.

Parents and Players, let me know if you have any other pitching questions.  

Long distance running is bad for baseball. I'm sorry, BaseballInstructor50, I have no idea how else to prove this to you. Please do some research on the matter. Until then, I'd advise no one to follow your program if it includes long distance running. 

 

My passion is not "odd." It's right. I'm right. I know I'm right because I've researched this subject, and because the evidence I've found proves I'm right. A consistent program should not include distance running for baseball players. Truthfully, I find it odd that you think it's odd that I'm providing you evidence of something that is helpful to baseball players. That's what coaches are supposed to do...

 

There is no evidence. Those studies can be easily picked apart as they are not pitching specific. Do you know anaerobic energy is only used after  aerobic energy is used up? So   a quality study first need to distinguish wether pitching is aerobic or anaerobic . 

 

JH. Answer this, football is all about explosion , in fact each play last for only 10 seconds and they get to rest a few and reset. By your studies you say thet football players shouldnt do distance work?

 

 

Jogging ng increases blood flow to the whole body, and in our case the arm. Is washes out all the waste products such as lactic acid and bring in neutricients to heal the micro tears. 

 

 

 

 

What? Did you actually read any of the links I provided? Pitching is anaerobic, and therefore an anaerobic threshold needs to be established and increased in order to optimize performance. Lactic acid is not waste, it's necessary for recovery. Those are two main tenets of everything I provided. I'd suggest reading the evidence before telling me there's no evidence. Or, consult with leading kinesiologists, biomechanical researchers, strength and conditioning coaches, and orthopedists, like I have (or that, ya know, wrote the evidence I provided), who all say the same exact thing. Distance running is bad for baseball.

 

I am not familiar with football-specific training so I can't speak to the accuracy of the following assumption. But, knowing the typical movements of a football player throughout a game, I would imagine that training for the sport is similar and that there would be a significant lack of benefit to distance running because of the same principles. Short burst, quick twitch, forceful movements for a small period of time are the sport-specific movements, so I'd imagine optimal training would be aligned in a similar fashion.

 

Once again, for lurkers of this thread…there is NO benefit to long distance running for baseball. I wish anyone luck finding evidence to the contrary.

 

After a simple google search that took me about 3 seconds, I came across this: "In the research study conducted by Potteiger et al. (1992), the researchers found that mean V02 only reached 20 ml. kg.min during the simulated game, and returned to 4.9 ml.kg.min between innings (resting is 3.5 ml.kg.min). The V02s of endurance athletes are approximately greater than or equal to 60 ml.kg.min. Based off this study, V02 does not seem to be a limiting factor for pitchers who want to pitch deep into games. Since a high V02 does not make a great pitcher, why are we training like an endurance athlete, when pitching relies predominately on the anaerobic system? While jogging may help you with body composition and endurance, it’s not going to help you throw more innings in a game. Our emphasis should be on building strength and speed, which are more anaerobic qualities."

More: In a similar study that compared sprint training and long, slow distance running in-season, Rhea et al. (2008) found a significant increase in lower body power for the sprint group, and a drop in power for the distance group...

 

Explain to me how they are easily picked apart, oh great scientist!

 

Funny, that's a quote from an article on Eric Cressey's website, one of the nation's leading baseball-specific strength and conditioning experts. The article is literally entitled "Should Pitchers Distance Run? What The Research Says."    http://www.ericcressey.com/sho...at-the-research-says

 

Arguing against this evidence is like arguing that 2 + 2 doesn't equal 4. It's that obvious, folks. STOP RUNNING DISTANCE.

 

Takes another 3 seconds of googling to see that Football players shouldn't do any distance running. The only thing distance running helps with is distance running.

I am just trying to make pitchers better at pitching.  Not trying to make distance runners out of pitchers.  I know plenty of pitchers that opted not to do distance running but they did jump on an elliptical or bike for the same purpose.  Flush the system.  

I'm not sure what your affiliation is with eric cressey but I'm pretty sure his proof helps him make money. His evidence is against the grain and something that people will bite on, hook, line and sinker.

I will stick with a program that has worked.

Feel free to check out this website that is fun and informative.

 

I've never met Eric Cressey. I've never paid him a penny of my money, nor has he paid me a penny of his. We have no affiliation. I appreciate evidential research, and he provides some of the best on the topic. His evidence is not "against the grain." The fact of the matter is, that you - and everyone else who preaches distance running - don't have any evidence. As I mentioned before, distance running is bad for baseball. If you disagree, you are WRONG. There is no in between. And there is no evidence that says otherwise. 

 

My statements have nothing to do with any affiliation beyond an affiliation with the truth. The truth is, distance running does nothing for baseball. That's it. Period, the end. I can't force you, or anyone else, to stop preaching it. I can only attempt to pass along the truth. And if people aren't willing to accept the (blatantly obvious) truth, then I simply won't refer clients to those people.

 

I am not preaching distance running.  I am preaching a pitching program that includes distance running.  If you're not a fan of distance running then do some sort of cardio to flush the system.

 

I am proof that a program that includes distance running works.

 

 

 

One person is not proof for anything. What exactly are you flushing? Please provide exact terms so I can research your claims (i.e if soreness, what exactly are the things in your body that it is flushing to reduce soreness). Thanks.

I am trying to help young pitchers reach their dreams using a pitching program that has proven to work with myself and countless others.  Not sure how old you are but maybe I can help you too JH.  

 

You can continue your mission to stop distance running in baseball and I will continue to develop pitchers.

 

Parents and Players, any pitching questions?

 

I'm old enough to realize that your "program" isn't worth a penny of ANYONE'S money. You can continue to do whatever you'd like, but what you're doing is wrong. I don't need your help.

 

If anyone wants real advice from someone that's actually researched this topic, feel free to PM me and I will either help you myself (free of charge) or refer you to real experts in the field. I'm done wasting my time with close-minded people who don't listen.

 

STOP running distance. Everyone. It's pointless and it doesn't work. 

 

 

 

Here's a question: What exactly are you flushing when you are flushing the body? Please provide exact terms so I can research your claims (i.e if soreness, what exactly are the things in your body that it is flushing to reduce soreness). Thanks.

 

JH without knowing it, did stop my son from doing distance running. Well worth the price of admission here

Lets good some good pitching questions going.  

FWIW, I've gotten 3 PM's since my last post. So, there are people listening. This makes me happy. Thank you.

 

If you can't answer a basic question on why you do something, why should anyone ask for advice on anything else?

 

What exactly are you flushing when you are flushing the body? Please provide exact terms so I can research your claims (i.e if soreness, what exactly are the things in your body that it is flushing to reduce soreness). Thanks.

keep pitchers in distance running 

Lets get some good pitching questions going.  

Are you ignoring me? Why is my good pitching question getting ignored?

 

 Unbelievable. Every word here was disproven by more than a dozen examples of evidence previously cited right here in this thread. This is all 100% incorrect. It's astonishing that you aren't even willing to consider anyone else's thoughts on a topic, and then expect people to go to your website and pay for yours.

 

 

If Lactic acid is bad and running flushes it, shouldn't you always be running? There is always lactic acid in your body.

 

"The reason trained athletes can perform so hard and so long is because their intense training causes their muscles to adapt so they more readily and efficiently absorb lactic acid."

 

Lactic acid isn't a bad thing any more than water is bad thing. Maybe you should tell your athletes not to drink any water.

 

 

Wow! A quote from a link I cited yesterday, explaining all of this! Evidence, amazing!

 

 

Baseballinstuct:

 

Is it possible that you were successful IN SPITE of your training methods? 

 

Do you think P3 sports has their baseball athletes running distance?

 

http://www.p3.md/

 

Take a look at these guys, do you think that maybe if you trained with them you would have had more than a cup of coffee in the bigs?

 

Look at the stuff Kyle is doing at drivelinebaseball.

 

http://www.drivelinebaseball.com/author/Kyle/

 

If I recall correctly Kyle did not play baseball in HS. 

 

Sometimes it is not what you have done but what you are doing that is more important.

 

Something to think about.....

 

 

 

Predictable responses. 

 

I'm not sure why your still wasting your time here.  Would love to hear your credentials other than reading "scientific facts".

 

I get it.  You don't like to run.  

 

I have an idea - Start a new thread all about not running in baseball, post all your links.  Talk each other into it more and more.  I will answer questions that parents and players have about pitching here on this thread.  

 

 

 

 

OK, fine. It can be personal. I really wanted to avoid this, but your obliviousness is truly remarkable. ________ - I've looked into a lot of your material you have on the Internet. You're absolutely clueless about how to teach pitching, and NO ONE should listen to anything you have to say. 

 

I vote to have this thread closed. If close-minded, ignorant, condescending, obnoxious people like ________ want to present themselves as "experts" on topics they literally know NOTHING about, let them do it somewhere else. No need to waste more bandwidth here.

 

Have a nice day. Let us know when you decide to actually research and learn how to do your job. Until you do, stop wasting people's time and posing like you know what you're talking about. Your talent took you far further than most people could have imagined in this game, and you're very fortunate for that. Your knowledge of the craft in which you excelled so much is shockingly neanderthalic. That makes you a terrible teacher. It's OK, not everyone that played can teach. But don't act like you can if you can't.

 

And for the record, my "credentials" (which are utterly meaningless, by the way), are plenty good. Even by your ridiculous standards. The "reading scientific facts" credential is more than you have, anyway.

 

 

Your answers can't be taken seriously at all, since you've proven that you can't answer basic questions about what you do and why you do it with any scientific reason, logic or anything other than an appeal to an authority you don't have. You clearly don't know about the human body and what makes it work and you clearly don't know what people should do to be a better pitcher.

 

No one on this board or anywhere should pay attention to what you have to say on how to make someone a better pitcher and no one should give you any money or treat any of your responses as anything more than toilet paper.

 

This is really getting to me. If they are facts, then you are 100% wrong. Using quotation marks is you saying that all of these scientists and well meaning individuals are lying and duping people. Your accusations, sir, are highly offensive and you should reflect on what you actually just wrote and will no doubt write in the future.

Not much to add to JH and Oldschool they pretty much summed it up for me,

 

Cheers I am done with this one. Caveat emptor

I'm evoking a personal ban on responding for the remainder of this thread. Nothing good will come out of an emotional response from me, and I don't wish to be tempted to continue in such a way. Thanks to all that have been following and I apologize to those that didn't enjoy following. PMs are still welcomed, as I mentioned above.

 

The computer armchair pitching coaches have spoken

Sorry if you thought I was getting personal.  Really wasn't trying to and tried several times to move along the conversation to other pitching topics.  I was curious about your credentials on the matter.  That is all.

 

Like I said, I will keep helping pitchers develop.

 

Thank you.

The ole non apology apology! Haven't seen that in a few weeks. I don't really buy that you weren't trying to get personal when that entire response was nothing but personal and an appeal to authority plus a slam on science, scientists and intelligence.

What other pitching topics do u want to give advice on?

Pitchers taking care of their health is #1 in my book. The fact that you are dispensing "old"  no longer factual  ideas is of concern to me. What else could you be getting wrong?  How can I trust that your  workout schedule is best for my son.

the lactic acid comment has been disproved by science IMO, and running long distances next day  has no value. I believe studies that say soreness is caused by sm micro tears in muscles. I too read  many Cressy articles/blogs. Seems to know his stuff. Never bought anything from him, wish he was closer so I could visit facility to see what they have to offer. 

Glad you wanted to post to help, but I'll take my ? Elsewhere sorry

I HATE posting on these types of threads but I just can't keep from it any longer.

I believe there is a lot of misinformation and opinions on subjective research being throw out as fact. I also believe some misunderstanding of definitions is causing disagreements where there should be none. I'm going to try and cover as much on these topics as I can. I'm sure I'm missing a few and this is not in response to anyone in particular.

I'll start with my definition and the general definition of a few things.

Distance training: 5 to 15 miles or more. Not a 1 mile rune.
Anerobic sprints: over 100 yards. 10 yard sprints are not anerobic

Aerobic: the production of energy with sufficent levels of oxygen
Anerobic: the production of energy without sufficent levels of oxygen.

Ok with those stated.
-Running a mile or two will not hurt your anerobic system. Running 20 miles will. 
-running 10 or 20 yard sprints will not incerase your Vo2 uptake nor raise your metabolic threshold. The sprints needed are long sprints preferably for 20 to 30 seconds.
-if done correctly any athlete can get in good shape with either mile or two running or long sprints. I peronaly would rather untrained coaches use a mile run because it requires less knowledge of what they are doing. I also have my clients and my son run sprints because of the secondary benifits to them.
-lactic acid does cause soreness. Pitching does build up lactic acid. The study everyone wants to keep throwing out to dispute this is flawed in its assumptive conclusions.
-the theory is that easy jogging and increasing blood flow will help the body reabsorbe (not flush) lactic acid. Don't have an opinion on this one. I haven't seen a study to convince me of it either way. Though the theory makes some sence.
-pitching is not anerobic nor aerobic. No energy is proudced while throwing a ball. The energy produced between throws would be aerobic.
-best way for general public to understand aerobic and anerobic is if your not out of breath your in the aerobic system. If your out of breath your in the anerobic one.
-aerobic and anerobic exercises do not mean they exclusivley train those systems. In fact some of the crap out there over the years primarily trained the opposite of what it was trying to do. Both systems are used in all training and those particular terms are mostly sales trigger words. Remember it's a billion dollar industry.

Now the one comment to a specific poster. JH although I had already read most of your links I went back and reread all of them again. There is a great deal of opinions of research there but not that much scientific study. Not going to argue if any of it is right or wrong but just going to say be careful when arguing someone's else's opinion as fact. Althought I do agree 100% with Eric's #9 lol.

With that said please remember research is subjective and will be interpreted differently by different people. It is not facts. Also a great deal of research is designed to prove a point not find an answer.

To that end the lactic acid production while pitching research. It's hard to explain in laymens terms why I find the study faulty but there is one part that I don't understand why everyone doesn't have a problem with it.

Resting lactic acid 1.0 mM
After squats  8-10mM a 80 to 100% increase
After pitching 5.3-5.8 mM a 53 to 58% increase

How they conclude and 80% increase caused by a major muscle system is a significant increase but a 50% increase by one arm isn't baffles me.

Now for the OP. My son is 13. He has pretty good mechanics (or so I've been told) but has started having a problem with dropping his arm slot. He already throws low 3/4 but will let it drop down a few more inches and lets his hand get under the ball instead of behind it.

Is there anything we can do for this or is it just a matter of him focusing on not letting it happen?

Lactic acid does not cause soreness 

its out of body 60 min after  exercise

soreness shows up 12-24 hrs later in muscles. 

Its tares in fibers/muscles

if l acid is culpret then a little running is all pitchers need and they would never have soreness. Boy sign me up.

       
       


Agree the majority of soreness comes from tares. Not sure about the lactic acid being gone in 60 minutes. I've read theory's for and against that. Compaired to say heart disease, there's  actually very limited research on these subjects and rightfully so they are not life threatining. I just don't see why people are so absolute in their opinions on training. It's worse than politics and religion haha. If lactic acid caused the soreness then a light jog might help. If micro tares cause it a light jog might still help. If a light jog does nothing then what? Someone wasted a whole 7-8 minutes of their life. I don't know the answers. I'm not a pitcher. I just know there is a lot of fallacial arguments being thrown around on both sides baised on opinions and being stated as fact.

If someone says they are having the pitchers throw 1,000 pitches a day. Go nuts on them but someone saying they have a kid do a little running and treat them like they are a cancer. Really?

If I recall correctly Kyle did not play baseball in HS. 

That hurts, BOF. I was merely very bad.

 

As for distance running, the argument isn't as simple as "it's good" or "it's bad." It is closer to useless than it is useful, that is for sure. But the argument is actually fairly complicated. I recommend reading Mark Twight (Gym Jones) and Lyle McDonald (Body Recomposition) on the subject, as they are experts in the fields of anaerobic/anerobic training.

 

And as for the OP... JH and I both currently work in professional baseball, and I consult for some of the best colleges in the nation as well. (Including the 2014 CWS champions.)

 

I promise I'm not handing out long distance running packets to my players. (And neither is Brent Strom, a good friend of mine.)

 

EDIT: I will say the idea of "flushing" the body by running is particularly funny. Perhaps you can describe the physiological processes that occur when things are "flushed." Or did you mean your bathroom toilet?

baseball instructor a closed minded person will never advance his knowledge.

You guys are a bunch of bullies. Your not disagreeing, your being a..h..les

Please don't throw around silly statements like we r treating someone like a cancer. I've lost many relatives to cancer and that statement is overreacting.

 I personally have not called anyone a name, just trying to clear up myths still out there after all these yrs about what is happening to our bodies. 

We need to educate ourselves by rdg the many research studies out there.

 Yrs ago my grandma was taught to put butter on a burn, and we know now that was wrong. New info will come out in a few yrs to correct more wrong things we r doing presently. 

People can believe or disbelieve what they choose. 

Really.  I guess things may have changed. 

http://authoritynutrition.com/...ter-is-good-for-you/

 

i would suggest nothing is certain.  "Scientific studies" are bound to change.

       
       


Same thing happened with eggs not long ago, didn't it?

no we're not, we are having a contradiction....

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

 

Sorry Kyle, I remember reading something about your background and could not remember exactly. 

 

To bbman's point I both Tom House and Ron Wolforth have admitted that things they taught in the past were not necessarily accurate and current knowledge has changed their approach. 

 

 

I would also like to point out that being an aerobically fit athlete is a good thing. You just don't necessarily want to get it from distance running, there are all kinds ways to get that aspect of your training done. 

I don't have enough scientific knowledge to make a firm statement one way or another on this yet, but Scotty83 had some very interesting points. I'm curious about what JH, BOF and Oldskool2 have to say about his post. Particularly about the running up to 5 miles not being a problem. And really about running 1-2 miles being beneficial. I'm not sure many baseball programs are having their players running more than 2 miles at a time.

Running 2 miles every so often isn't going to be the death of you. In fact, it might be beneficial. And probably better than doing nothing.

 

But "better than nothing" is not the standard I hold my players and coaches to. Neither should you. Your coaches should know the tenets of training pitchers and at least have a cursory understanding of the basic research done out there.

 

I know that's asking a lot (a whole 20-40 hours of independent research instead of relying on what you were told), but if we're into developing pitchers, we owe it to them to learn as much as possible.

 

Again, if anyone wants to learn on their own instead of wait for an answer - usually the best policy - google what Mark Twight and Lyle McDonald have to say on the subject. It won't be easy to learn right off the bat, but that shouldn't deter you from learning. 

hmm... my Grandma put several sticks of butter on a severe burn and I have no scars or marks afterwards.

Nicholas Namias, chief of trauma and acute care surgery at University of Miami’s Miller School of Medicine, said reaching for a stick of butter seems "intuitively obvious" because "it comes out of the refrigerator cold, so it certainly feels good."
"Anything that can cool a burn before the tissue has had a chance to 'cook' should lessen the severity of the burn," he said. "I advocate cooling small burns if it can be done immediately; I’ve seen burns that should have been worse do well seemingly because they were immediately cooled."

You young whippersnappers don't know near as much as my Grandma.

I have no interest getting involved in this debate.  It's interesting that a few recent posts Involve what I believe.  I wouldn't doubt if those posts came from some older guys like myself.

 

When you look back over a long period of time you remember those things you were taught and believed to be 100% accurate.  Only to then find out they were 100% wrong!

 

Here is what I "think" is a true statement.  We keep learning, much of what was considered right years ago has been proven wrong.  So it is reasonable to think that much of what is considered right today will be proven wrong at some point. Someone will be there to prove it!

 

No one can stop this action!  The things we know today are going to change.  We will know much more in the decades to come.  That includes training, the medical field, baseball and everything else.

 

That said, we only have what is known today to go by. 

 

Not to change the subject, but it would by an interesting study to take the most successful pitchers that ever lived and see what they had in common from training to performing.  

 

I'm not sure there will be a lot of similarities other than they all had talent and potential.  I don't think you can take any kid and turn him into a successful pitcher.  If that kid doesn't have the potential, it ain't happening IMO!  Good instructors can make anyone better.  But no instructor can make every kid good enough.  

 

A long time ago I was considered a running expert.  Every single kid I ever worked with would improve their running ability.  It was fun working with talented athletes.  It was frustrating working with kids that had no talent.  Sure the 8.5 60 kids would improve to 8 flat.  They improved greatly, but they were still too slow to play.

 

While talking about instruction... And this has nothing to do with anyone in this thread... People need to understand there is some very BAD instructors out there making money off of unsuspecting people.  Often the biggest target is the kid that has already proven to have a lot of talent.  After all, if that instructor gets involved with someone that makes it big, business gets better.  

 

A couple years ago we saw a sophomore in high school that we thought had early round potential in two years.   He was throwing upper 80s but with the quickest smoothest arm action.  He was already 6'4" with great natural mechanics.  He said no one had ever worked with him, he just kind of taught him self how to pitch.  In other words he had natural ability!

 

One year later we saw this kid again at the same event.  I was really looking forward to see how much progress he made.  What happened was so very disappointing.  He still threw pretty much the same velocity, but now he looked stiff as a robot.  His mechanics and arm action went from fast and loose to tight and mechanical.  Had this been the first time we ever saw him, he wouldn't have been impressive at all.

 

I knew the answer, but asked him anyway.  Have you been working with an instructor?  He said yes after he attended last year an instructor contacted his dad offering his services.  Told his dad that he had watched the video and saw some things that the kid needed to work on and he could take the kid to another level.  Well, he did take the kid to another level, in fact several levels, DOWN! I told the dad the truth, the instructor was not helping a bit.

 

I did get the instructors name, just in case someone ever asked about him.  People will actually pay for bad advice!

Great post, PGStaff. One of the quickest, most natural arm actions I saw in this area belonged to a kid who hadn't taken a pitching lesson once in his life. He was upper 80's despite being very short.

 

Saw him six months later after he took some private lessons, and his velo had plummeted and his arm action was so robotic. Tough to see.

bballman,

 

First I am not an expert in this area, but as most know my son is a college pitcher and being in SoCal when he was growing up I sought out help as I was not knowledgeable and also read a ton of stuff. I am an engineer so I have always looked at things through and electro-mechanical lens. Which the body is I just don't know all of the physiological details. (which frankly is a lot) What I found was exactly what PG pointed out; there are lots of pitching instructors who really don't understand what they are talking about.

 

When my son was in HS he did exactly as baseballinstruct suggested, after his game he would go out on a 2-3 mile "flush run".It seemed to make sense at the time. What he also did was take a very cold shower at the end of it, which based on my experience with the sprint coach I mentioned earlier suggested since they had found that Olympic sprinters (he trained with the Olympic team)  had better recovery using ice baths. (which BTW are in every training facility in the world now) He is the guy that convinced me that distance running did not make sense, independent of all of the other material coming out on the subject now. Early on I did some research into weighted balls, which Dr Bongonsi did work on 25+ years ago and was criticized for. After talking with the sprint coach and what techniques they use to develop fast athletes it made complete sense to me to do cross training, "under and over" techniques to speed up the body. I also knew that young arms were developing so I never did much with them, since I felt healthy development was important prior to puberty. (which by the way Dr Marshall was spot on, even though some of the other stuff he teaches is a bit obtuse) Now I see what Wolforth and Boddy are doing and it makes complete sense to me. Is it right for you or your son, that is for you to decide.

 

I am not involved with my son's training but just see what he is doing and his program has been using a variant of the Wolforth weighted ball program very successfully for a number of years. They may "only be D3" but they routinely have the best pitching staffs in the country and routinely get kids drafted. A kid this year was picked up by the Phillies and he is throwing 97. Not bad for a kid who never had a chance as a freshmen. Any way, what I see my son doing is exactly what Cressey, P3 sports, Gym Jones, and his old track coach recommended. He does not run much, if at all, but when they do 1 mile timed runs at his school to check on aerobic health, he runs 5'30 miles, so he is very fit aerobically. BTW he develops his aerobic capacity through rowing, at least that is what he tells me. 

 

So to make a very long story a bit longer, I agree 100% with what PG posted.IMO we really don't know 100% what is going on in the throwing motion, however the knowledge base from what I have seen has exploded in the past 5 years. You can see the results of this in the number of kids throwing over 90 MPH. I don't know this for a fact but I am pretty sure it is based, in part, on the improved training methods being applied to baseball. Guys like Wolforth and Boddy are really doing some great things this area IMO. (BTW I have never met either of them nor spent a dime with either) (I will contact you Kyle one of these days!)

 

So when I see a "pitching instructor" offer advice here, first am happy that there is a free resource for kids/parents, and  I read what is recommended. When it is contrary to what I have learned over the past 9 years, I ask questions. When the answers don't seem quite right then a red flag goes up. When the answers are "well that is what I did 5 years ago in the pros" without a logical explanation then more red flags. Then when challenged even further there is not a logical explanation even more red flags.

 

I don't want to make this personal at all, "just the facts mam". Most of us here stick around to help others coming up and that is all I am doing. I provide links to what I think someone should look into for their son and they can make the decision.  

 

If it was me I would be sending my son to drivelinebaseball, Wolforth, throwzone, Jaeger sports,  and for working out Cressey, P3 sports, Gym Jones.

 

I am also a believer that "through conflict comes clarity" so and this has been one of the more interesting threads on the subject in a while and for that I thank baseballinstuct, I hope he has learned a few things that he can apply to his craft.

 

Parents and players can figure out what they want to do on their own and this site continues to be an amazing resource for them. 

 

Have a great Sunday everyone. 

 

BOF, I see that you have found some stuff that has worked for your son. My son is also a college pitcher, but that's not really what I'm talking about. A lot of things make intuitive sense. I'm kind of trying to stick to the science right now. The OP has been crucified here for not seeing and accepting what the science has to say. Scotty83 provided a different scientific perspective than those who are saying that any kind of distance running should not be done at all. Especially concerning the shorter distance running (under 5 miles).  I'm just curious what those who are vehemently against any kind of distance running think about the science and definitions that Scotty83 presented in his post.

I respect the opinions that everyone has on running for pitchers.

I also respect the science that is going into pitching programs and the business that Boddy, Cressey, Etc... are building.

I just don't understand the personal attacks on me as a pitching instructor for not agreeing with some of you.  I played for several organizations and played all over the world, exposed to countless pitching coaches, throwing programs, sports psychologists, etc... and have developed a program from that experience that I use in my instruction.  Not just what worked for me but what I saw work for several college and professional athletes.  The same programs and techniques that I have taught to kids and continues to work.  I am not selling anything here, not looking for any approval.   If I was harming pitchers or had no experience of my own and called myself an instructor or expert, then by all means educate me.  But, the kids that I work currently and in the past have been extremely happy with the results while staying injury free.  I continue to perfect my craft as an instructor, still learning - always learning about this great game.  

 

I'll jump back in, because I did feel like Scotty83's post was very intuitive and geared toward a logical discussion. I appreciate that.

 

That being said, the fact that a longer-distance run isn't harmful does not mean it is optimally beneficial. Scotty83's post highlighted that sprints of 20-30 seconds increase Vo2 uptake and metabolic threshold. My research, BOF's research, and Kyle's research - as well as what has been provided throughout this thread - echo that claim. 

 

This quote was a red flag for me in Scotty83's post: "I peronaly would rather untrained coaches use a mile run because it requires less knowledge of what they are doing."

 

If a coach is untrained in the act of developing pitchers, taking the lazy way out does not make things better. He should become educated. If running for an extended period of time is not optimally beneficial, and sprinting is, then pitchers should be running sprints. Coaches should know that.

 

Even if there is research that says that distance running isn't necessarily harmful for pitchers, there is no research that says it is optimal. Why train in a way that does not maximize your abilities?

 

bbman,

 

I pretty much agree 100% of what he posted. I agree with Kyle that distance running is not bad, it is just not optimal. (face it baseball players run a lot so D'Oh they have to run some) Running two miles is in fact good, but if it was me I would alternate between repetitive sprints, and maybe some other longer sprints mixed in for aerobic conditioning. Go back and read it carefully and you will see that he has his son run sprints. .

 

I don't have the knowledge on the lactic acid build up differences. I have read some of these medical papers in the past, and quickly get lost in the medi-technical terms. To really get the full details you would have to have the whole paper to pick out exactly the test conditions and what he is referring to.

 

As a practical matter for higher level athletes, these programs need to be phased; a body mass gain phase, an explosive phase, and then flexibility and maintenance phase. I don't think you necessarily have to be getting aerobic conditioning during a mass phase, but I am frankly not sure.  My one data point  right now is in a body mass  weight gain phase (lower body primarily)  as well as his weighted ball program. He is building his aerobic capacity, again through rowing but I don't really know if he is doing this on his own, or if it is part of his program. 

 

This is not for this thread, but I actually question whether some pitchers should not do summer ball and stay home and workout as they will be better, stronger and more effective if they did this. Again maybe I will open a thread on this for discussion.

So, it sounds to me like as long as the OP is not having his students run over 5 miles as part of his pitching program he is not doing anything to harm his students. Maybe not the optimal thing, but nothing harmful. So what we are really talking about is thinking that an instructor should add some sort of sprint routine to their training regimen. If he did that, the workout routine would be taking a step in the right direction to being optimal.

Although running 2-3 miles is not harmful, it WILL help in the overall physical shape of the player. I'm just not sure the OP deserved what he got for doing something that is not harmful and not the optimal thing to do. Maybe the message shouldn't be "don't distance run, period" and should be more along the lines of "short distance running of less than 3 miles is OK, but to get the optimal workout for your player, you should implement a sprint routine as well".

If I'm wrong, let me know. I'm willing to listen.

bbman this is my take on it:

 

My view is that a instructor should be helping improve his students when he has them do something. Giving them something to do that "does not harm them" and provides moderate benefits is not what I would want to pay someone for. JMO. Doing something just because it was done in the past is also a huge red flag for me, mainly because of the rapid developments that are happening in the field. What else is he missing? 

 

Looking back on my son's development I wish we had found someone like Cressey, P3, Gym Jones, etc, earlier and got him lifting properly sooner. The running he did really did not advance him much as far as I can tell. He had a 5 MPH gain last year, and while not all this was due to his workout routine, I think it was a big part.

 

As an additional note, I would not have my son go to an instructor who does not have a good high speed video system. As Kyle and PG pointed out you don't want to create throwing robots, but you can not see details in the delivery without it IMO. 

To add onto what BOF said above, I don't understand why something would be done if it is not optimal, knowing the exercise that would be optimal. If we know that there is a better alternative to distance running, why not do that?

 

I didn't get upset that BaseballInstructor50 teaches long distance running. I got upset because he showed  continues to show a complete lack of aptitude for learning how to do his job. The methods he preaches are not benefitting his clients and he refuses to understand what he can do to make himself better. Instead of being willing to learn, he cites his past experience as a player as an example of why his teaching methods are right, and mocks science, evidence, and research in a condescending manner. That is not someone who's opinion I respect or someone who I feel deserves to profit off of his inability to teach. 

 

My reactions were less about the content of the thread and more about his reactions to other thoughts. 

 

JH let me clarify that statement a little. First I agree with you. I wish all our coaches were well trained in exercise science or all our high schools could afford good athletic trainers. But that's not the world we live in. I know hundreds of coaches. I know two with expertise in exercise science. I live in a small town. We play against other small towns and small schools. None of them have athletic trainers and coaches are made up of PE teachers, history teachers, math teachers, and so on. That's the football coaches don't get me started on the baseball coaches. Anyway if you tell one of those coaches don't run distance run sprints instead. They will stop running the mile, the interval runs, the 600 and they will start running 10,20, and 40 yard sprints. So now the have lost all the conditioning running and are only traing their spritnting technique. Which is all short distance sprits are good for. However they don't understand proper running form so now it's a complete waste of time. At least with the mile run their players got some benifit from it.

But again yes I wish all coaches were trained enough. It's just not going to happen. Especially at the HS level.

 

Understood, and I agree. I stand by my opinion, but I agree. Thank you for your contributions and thoughts, I learned something.

 

       
       


Just to point out, the OP included doing sprints as part of his recommended workout routine. What I don't see is his definition of "distance" running. If it's under 3 miles or so, I don't see how his workout routine is not pretty close to optimal. If his players are in better overall physical shape by doing some longer running AND he is incorporating sprints, I don't see a BIG problem with what he is doing.

Just wanted to point out that the OP DID include doing sprint work with his conditioning plan.

bbman, good point, we certainly did get off track, but there is some great stuff in this thread for a player or dad looking for guidance. 

       
       

I agree, I know I've learned some things. I just hope the OP hasn't been run off, there were some harsh things said and overall, I don't think he's as far off base as maybe originally thought.

So... he wasn't a witch?

 

I still think he's absolutely clueless. He also spoke in a condescending nature to those trying to point out that altering his routine may be beneficial to his clients. I don't regret or take back what I said that was directed to the OP and if he has chosen not to take the advice given to him, that he has been run off.

 

Until BaseballInstructor50 decides to broaden the scope of his knowledge, I strongly recommend that no one takes him up on his services. In other pieces that I've discovered he's written on the Internet, he's advised things such as snapping your wrist to throw a curveball, and to not lift heavy weights as a pitcher because the "small muscle fibers" in the arm are what makes a pitcher throw harder and stay healthy. There's also a piece explaining how to put a substance on a glove so a pitcher can tamper with a ball.

 

This man is posing as an expert, and is trying to sell his bill of good here. When people approach him with logic, he mocks "science" and questions their "credentials." This man is a detriment to his clients and no one should afford him the opportunity to provide coaching about pitching.

 

He's plenty far off. I hope he gets run off until he learns something.

 

*retreating back into the self-evoked "timeout" from this thread*

 

JH, I don't understand why you are trying to tear down what I do.  I've had success and continue to pass it along.  I said I respect your opinion.  Would hope you respect mine. Respect is a big part of this game. 

If you're currently in pro ball in some capacity please ask your colleagues if they think I am clueless or should not be working with young pitchers.  You are attacking how I make a living and feed my family.  You threw my name out earlier in the thread and now you're knocking me as an instructor.  Please ask those around you, your bosses your coworkers about the type of player I was and the type of person I am.  

You can ask Strom if I am qualified to teach how to throw a curveball.  Ask Rick Short, Area scout with the Diamondbacks about me as a teammate.  Craig Shipley how I was as a player or ask Donnie Reynolds.

Once again, I respect your opinion, respect mine.

BaseballInstructor50- I'm not questioning your baseball skills. You were one of the greatest baseball players in the world at your peak. I would never, ever take that away from you. You played in the Major Leagues. That's absolutely incredible. I'm not questioning you as a person. You're very likely an unbelievably nice person. I'd never question someone's personality based on some things on the Internet. What I am questioning is your ability to teach pitching, given the fact that you've shown an unwillingness to learn from examples given to you here. There is no such thing as "flushing" the system, there is no such thing as "snapping" the wrist to throw a curveball. Weightlifting isn't bad. Doctoring a baseball is cheating. Long distance running isn't the optimal way to train. All of these things have been stated, and examples have been given, and you dispute them by mocking science, questioning credentials, and essentially ignoring the sources that were provided. I would love for you to contribute here, and to contribute to the careers of young people. I think having a role model in someone that has reached the pinnacle of the sport that people dream of reaching is an unbelievably fabulous aspect of navigating through the process. But I can't support someone who isn't willing to alter their methods, when it's been proven that the alterations would be an improvement.

 

I apologize for getting personal. I shouldn't have done that. I was being a jerk. I didn't want to attack you personally. I would love to have a continued, rational conversation about altering teaching methods, if you'd like. I think your experience playing baseball at the highest level combined with new research could be a lethal combination and could be very beneficial for people. That's the truth, in my mind. I got emotional about a silly topic and took it overboard. I'm sorry.

 

 

       
       


Sultan. My wife wants me to thank you for giving her the opportunity to clean tea off our computer screen that I projected onto it when seeing your post. Thank you I love that movie. hahaha