i was wondering what the correlation of strength an pitching velocity is. For example, would you all be willing to say how much your son can squat and deadlift and how hard they can throw? I believe that these two have strong correlation but I would like to verify it.
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I would not say there is a direct correlation for all individuals. I would think there is a direct correlation for some percentage of pitchers who happen to rely largely on these muscle groups. How large that percentage is and which pitchers fall outside of that group is something I am curious about.
Lincecum is always the poster boy for skinny guys throwing hard. Based on his delivery, too much "strength" would likely prove counter-productive. I suspect the majority of pitchers would benefit from increased strength, but even then only up to a point. From a pure statistical standpoint, I would say strength and velocity are generally correlated, but like many statistics they won't hold up for everyone in the population.
This may be of interest.
my son is a complete weakling I honestly don't know how much he can squat i'm guessing 250. but he has gained some weight recently up to 170 from 158 over fall. 6"2 maybe even 6"3 now he's growing so fast. 9th grader he was throwing 85 mph over Christmas break.
I think for some people who have the proper mechanics and know how to pitch....yes they can benefit from increased power in their legs (ie squat and deadlift), core, and upper body flexibility. Keeping mind...not all pitchers rely on velocity exclusively.
My oldest son played in college. He had very good mechanics, and he put on 15-20 lbs of muscle in his legs and backside his freshman year. His top end velocity may have changed 1-2+ mph in college, but that increase could have been attributed to many things...further improved mechanics, diet and work habits in addition to squats, etc. What is interesting is that he changed from a strikeout pitcher in high school and travel to more of a multi-pitch pitcher that let hitters get themselves out in college.
So, if I had to put a myth or fact label on your premise.....I would say myth. Squats and deadlifts by themselves will make you stronger in the legs but may not translate to increased velocity unless you have a very good pitching foundation.
Don't skip leg day!
As a reference point . . . Trchala Jr. is 16 (+ 4 mos) and 5' 11" (maybe scraping 6' now), 170 lbs (soaking wet). He can single rep deadlift 350 lbs and back squat 300 lbs. Bench is 215 lbs. His max run n' gun velo is only 82. Off the mound is 80. So while I'm sure there's some correlation between strength and velo, he'd probably also tell you that he'd gladly give up some strength to be 4-5" taller (and proportionally heavier).
It's not just a matter of power but rather explosiveness (and mechanics, and flexibility). My kid is reasonably strong, but just can't seem to translate it into explosiveness, at least not yet.
My son threw 90 when he was a 140 lb weakling. So, mass is helpful, but not the silver bullet. 'Explosiveness' as generally defined, didn't figure in at all.
Squats and deadlifts create a great foundation of strength. But if that strength isn't able to be generated in a very short time frame to generate power ("explosiveness"), then there is probably very little correlation between squat/deadlift strength and pitching velocity.
Solids posts above....you may want to check out Brent Pourciau. Other than the Twitter wars vs Driveline on weighted balls (SMH)...i think his message is mostly about lifting combined with proper mechanics and increasing velocity although i have not studied his program nor devoted a ton of time on it.
Efficient pitching mechanics are the key to throwing hard. However, take a pitcher with efficient mechanics and add in a quality performance training program to include improved strength, speed, power and additional mass and you should consistently see improved velocity.
My son is a 2018 RHP with a squat and deadlift of close to 400 right now....trap bar DL being closer to 400 then squat. He has recently touched 93 with goal to sit 90 this spring.
I know that my 2020 isn't lighting in up in the weight room compared to his peers, but throws 88mph. That said, he has gotten feedback that he has a lot more velocity if he utilized his legs, so I am hoping there is some added benefit to leg strength as he lifts this year.
My 2018 squats 375 and deadlifts 450. Tops out at 87, sits mid 80s. Trying to increase flexibility, hip turn, and work on mechanics to add velocity. Strength isn’t the issue.
A Daug posted:My 2018 squats 375 and deadlifts 450. Tops out at 87, sits mid 80s. Trying to increase flexibility, hip turn, and work on mechanics to add velocity. Strength isn’t the issue.
How is his t-spine mobility?
coachld posted:A Daug posted:My 2018 squats 375 and deadlifts 450. Tops out at 87, sits mid 80s. Trying to increase flexibility, hip turn, and work on mechanics to add velocity. Strength isn’t the issue.
How is his t-spine mobility?
I’m not sure to be honest. Curious though about your question. In a flexibility, mobility evaluation his lower back is an area that has been identified that could be vulnerable to injury because of his sway back/spine curvature. Maybe this should be the focus rather than the hips? He’s successfully worked hard to increase hip flexibility and still no bump in velocity. His hip turn is visibly slower than a 90 plus guy in comparison. Arm generates plenty.
He’s obviously very frustrated that he’s not generating more velocity.
IMO there is no correlation. There are two many outliers to draw any conclusion that there is. Plus you can't charge 100 bucks and hour for your velocity was mostly decided at conception.
I will add this from personal experience. Son really didn't work out with weights until fall of his Junior year in HS and was 84-86, touching 88. 5'-9" @ 140lbs...i think. I know he was blessed with a good arm, athletic ability, fast hips and coordination but things didn't change radially until he started in the weight room and came out spring of Jr year sitting 90 up to 93. He had crushed the weights all fall with pitcher specific exercises with a former D1 pitcher coaching his lifting. All that being said, he still to this day has a few mechanical things to work out to be consistent so the work is never finished. At 5-10 (almost 5-11) 180 lbs today he well on his way and still loves to push himself in the weight room and loves the squats, dead lifts and weights overall. I mean, he looks forward to working out. His hopes are to leave school squatting 500lbs, who knows if that'll happen. I agree genetics are huge but the weight training definitely helped my son take the next step and keep him grounded in the blue collar work ethic required to get better at baseball.
Additional mass should logically translate into more velocity. However, according to one ancient philosopher, we logically shouldn't be able to walk across a room.
Shoveit4Ks posted:I will add this from personal experience. Son really didn't work out with weights until fall of his Junior year in HS and was 84-86, touching 88. 5'-9" @ 140lbs...i think. I know he was blessed with a good arm, athletic ability, fast hips and coordination but things didn't change radially until he started in the weight room and came out spring of Jr year sitting 90 up to 93. He had crushed the weights all fall with pitcher specific exercises with a former D1 pitcher coaching his lifting. All that being said, he still to this day has a few mechanical things to work out to be consistent so the work is never finished. At 5-10 (almost 5-11) 180 lbs today he well on his way and still loves to push himself in the weight room and loves the squats, dead lifts and weights overall. I mean, he looks forward to working out. His hopes are to leave school squatting 500lbs, who knows if that'll happen. I agree genetics are huge but the weight training definitely helped my son take the next step and keep him grounded in the blue collar work ethic required to get better at baseball.
Just out of curiosity, if you can remember and don't mind sharing, what was his deadlift and squat that junior year of HS and what is it now?
A Daug posted:coachld posted:A Daug posted:My 2018 squats 375 and deadlifts 450. Tops out at 87, sits mid 80s. Trying to increase flexibility, hip turn, and work on mechanics to add velocity. Strength isn’t the issue.
How is his t-spine mobility?
I’m not sure to be honest. Curious though about your question. In a flexibility, mobility evaluation his lower back is an area that has been identified that could be vulnerable to injury because of his sway back/spine curvature. Maybe this should be the focus rather than the hips? He’s successfully worked hard to increase hip flexibility and still no bump in velocity. His hip turn is visibly slower than a 90 plus guy in comparison. Arm generates plenty.
He’s obviously very frustrated that he’s not generating more velocity.
You are getting good advice as the key with swayback is to address posterior pelvic tilt first and foremost. This is accomplished by addressing the tight/weak muscles of the hip complex. Strengthen the hip flexors, glutes, external obliques and stretch the hip extensors. In addition to hips, athletes with swayback should be addressing the upper-crossed syndrome (tight upper-traps, pecs, etc.) which would include improving thoracic spine mobility (extension and rotation). Thoracic rotation is what allows pitchers to create good hip/shoulder separation and thoracic extension is going to help alleviate stress on the low back during the pitching motion. Pitchers who throw hard, typically have great hip/shoulder separation which is only possible with good thoracic spine rotational mobility.
Long story short...IMO...your son should also be working on corrective exercises for upper-body to include soft tissue/mobility work for thoracic spine to include extension and rotation.
