i was wondering what the correlation of strength an pitching velocity is. For example, would you all be willing to say how much your son can squat and deadlift and how hard they can throw? I believe that these two have strong correlation but I would like to verify it.
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I would not say there is a direct correlation for all individuals. I would think there is a direct correlation for some percentage of pitchers who happen to rely largely on these muscle groups. How large that percentage is and which pitchers fall outside of that group is something I am curious about.
Lincecum is always the poster boy for skinny guys throwing hard. Based on his delivery, too much "strength" would likely prove counter-productive. I suspect the majority of pitchers would benefit from increased strength, but even then only up to a point. From a pure statistical standpoint, I would say strength and velocity are generally correlated, but like many statistics they won't hold up for everyone in the population.
This may be of interest.
my son is a complete weakling I honestly don't know how much he can squat i'm guessing 250. but he has gained some weight recently up to 170 from 158 over fall. 6"2 maybe even 6"3 now he's growing so fast. 9th grader he was throwing 85 mph over Christmas break.
I think for some people who have the proper mechanics and know how to pitch....yes they can benefit from increased power in their legs (ie squat and deadlift), core, and upper body flexibility. Keeping mind...not all pitchers rely on velocity exclusively.
My oldest son played in college. He had very good mechanics, and he put on 15-20 lbs of muscle in his legs and backside his freshman year. His top end velocity may have changed 1-2+ mph in college, but that increase could have been attributed to many things...further improved mechanics, diet and work habits in addition to squats, etc. What is interesting is that he changed from a strikeout pitcher in high school and travel to more of a multi-pitch pitcher that let hitters get themselves out in college.
So, if I had to put a myth or fact label on your premise.....I would say myth. Squats and deadlifts by themselves will make you stronger in the legs but may not translate to increased velocity unless you have a very good pitching foundation.
Don't skip leg day!
As a reference point . . . Trchala Jr. is 16 (+ 4 mos) and 5' 11" (maybe scraping 6' now), 170 lbs (soaking wet). He can single rep deadlift 350 lbs and back squat 300 lbs. Bench is 215 lbs. His max run n' gun velo is only 82. Off the mound is 80. So while I'm sure there's some correlation between strength and velo, he'd probably also tell you that he'd gladly give up some strength to be 4-5" taller (and proportionally heavier).
It's not just a matter of power but rather explosiveness (and mechanics, and flexibility). My kid is reasonably strong, but just can't seem to translate it into explosiveness, at least not yet.
My son threw 90 when he was a 140 lb weakling. So, mass is helpful, but not the silver bullet. 'Explosiveness' as generally defined, didn't figure in at all.
Squats and deadlifts create a great foundation of strength. But if that strength isn't able to be generated in a very short time frame to generate power ("explosiveness"), then there is probably very little correlation between squat/deadlift strength and pitching velocity.
Solids posts above....you may want to check out Brent Pourciau. Other than the Twitter wars vs Driveline on weighted balls (SMH)...i think his message is mostly about lifting combined with proper mechanics and increasing velocity although i have not studied his program nor devoted a ton of time on it.
Efficient pitching mechanics are the key to throwing hard. However, take a pitcher with efficient mechanics and add in a quality performance training program to include improved strength, speed, power and additional mass and you should consistently see improved velocity.
My son is a 2018 RHP with a squat and deadlift of close to 400 right now....trap bar DL being closer to 400 then squat. He has recently touched 93 with goal to sit 90 this spring.
I know that my 2020 isn't lighting in up in the weight room compared to his peers, but throws 88mph. That said, he has gotten feedback that he has a lot more velocity if he utilized his legs, so I am hoping there is some added benefit to leg strength as he lifts this year.
My 2018 squats 375 and deadlifts 450. Tops out at 87, sits mid 80s. Trying to increase flexibility, hip turn, and work on mechanics to add velocity. Strength isn’t the issue.
A Daug posted:My 2018 squats 375 and deadlifts 450. Tops out at 87, sits mid 80s. Trying to increase flexibility, hip turn, and work on mechanics to add velocity. Strength isn’t the issue.
How is his t-spine mobility?
coachld posted:A Daug posted:My 2018 squats 375 and deadlifts 450. Tops out at 87, sits mid 80s. Trying to increase flexibility, hip turn, and work on mechanics to add velocity. Strength isn’t the issue.
How is his t-spine mobility?
I’m not sure to be honest. Curious though about your question. In a flexibility, mobility evaluation his lower back is an area that has been identified that could be vulnerable to injury because of his sway back/spine curvature. Maybe this should be the focus rather than the hips? He’s successfully worked hard to increase hip flexibility and still no bump in velocity. His hip turn is visibly slower than a 90 plus guy in comparison. Arm generates plenty.
He’s obviously very frustrated that he’s not generating more velocity.
IMO there is no correlation. There are two many outliers to draw any conclusion that there is. Plus you can't charge 100 bucks and hour for your velocity was mostly decided at conception.
I will add this from personal experience. Son really didn't work out with weights until fall of his Junior year in HS and was 84-86, touching 88. 5'-9" @ 140lbs...i think. I know he was blessed with a good arm, athletic ability, fast hips and coordination but things didn't change radially until he started in the weight room and came out spring of Jr year sitting 90 up to 93. He had crushed the weights all fall with pitcher specific exercises with a former D1 pitcher coaching his lifting. All that being said, he still to this day has a few mechanical things to work out to be consistent so the work is never finished. At 5-10 (almost 5-11) 180 lbs today he well on his way and still loves to push himself in the weight room and loves the squats, dead lifts and weights overall. I mean, he looks forward to working out. His hopes are to leave school squatting 500lbs, who knows if that'll happen. I agree genetics are huge but the weight training definitely helped my son take the next step and keep him grounded in the blue collar work ethic required to get better at baseball.
Additional mass should logically translate into more velocity. However, according to one ancient philosopher, we logically shouldn't be able to walk across a room.
Shoveit4Ks posted:I will add this from personal experience. Son really didn't work out with weights until fall of his Junior year in HS and was 84-86, touching 88. 5'-9" @ 140lbs...i think. I know he was blessed with a good arm, athletic ability, fast hips and coordination but things didn't change radially until he started in the weight room and came out spring of Jr year sitting 90 up to 93. He had crushed the weights all fall with pitcher specific exercises with a former D1 pitcher coaching his lifting. All that being said, he still to this day has a few mechanical things to work out to be consistent so the work is never finished. At 5-10 (almost 5-11) 180 lbs today he well on his way and still loves to push himself in the weight room and loves the squats, dead lifts and weights overall. I mean, he looks forward to working out. His hopes are to leave school squatting 500lbs, who knows if that'll happen. I agree genetics are huge but the weight training definitely helped my son take the next step and keep him grounded in the blue collar work ethic required to get better at baseball.
Just out of curiosity, if you can remember and don't mind sharing, what was his deadlift and squat that junior year of HS and what is it now?
A Daug posted:coachld posted:A Daug posted:My 2018 squats 375 and deadlifts 450. Tops out at 87, sits mid 80s. Trying to increase flexibility, hip turn, and work on mechanics to add velocity. Strength isn’t the issue.
How is his t-spine mobility?
I’m not sure to be honest. Curious though about your question. In a flexibility, mobility evaluation his lower back is an area that has been identified that could be vulnerable to injury because of his sway back/spine curvature. Maybe this should be the focus rather than the hips? He’s successfully worked hard to increase hip flexibility and still no bump in velocity. His hip turn is visibly slower than a 90 plus guy in comparison. Arm generates plenty.
He’s obviously very frustrated that he’s not generating more velocity.
You are getting good advice as the key with swayback is to address posterior pelvic tilt first and foremost. This is accomplished by addressing the tight/weak muscles of the hip complex. Strengthen the hip flexors, glutes, external obliques and stretch the hip extensors. In addition to hips, athletes with swayback should be addressing the upper-crossed syndrome (tight upper-traps, pecs, etc.) which would include improving thoracic spine mobility (extension and rotation). Thoracic rotation is what allows pitchers to create good hip/shoulder separation and thoracic extension is going to help alleviate stress on the low back during the pitching motion. Pitchers who throw hard, typically have great hip/shoulder separation which is only possible with good thoracic spine rotational mobility.
Long story short...IMO...your son should also be working on corrective exercises for upper-body to include soft tissue/mobility work for thoracic spine to include extension and rotation.
We don't know where throwing velocity comes from. Even with perfect mechanics and good strength you won't turn a 60mph pitcher into a 90mph one after a few months. Explosiveness is obviously a key part of it, but how is an elite pitcher SO explosive in the pitching motion? Often the young kids with velocity aren't explosive in anything else they do, including other sports.
2019Dad posted:Just out of curiosity, if you can remember and don't mind sharing, what was his deadlift and squat that junior year of HS and what is it now?
I'd have to ask those numbers from HS, frankly i was not as involved (believe it or not) and just stroked the check to the lift coach every week. Not sure on dead lifts....havent seen them in the winter workouts or other lift spreadsheets he gets. Back squat up to 430.
Shoveit4Ks posted:2019Dad posted:Just out of curiosity, if you can remember and don't mind sharing, what was his deadlift and squat that junior year of HS and what is it now?
I'd have to ask those numbers from HS, frankly i was not as involved (believe it or not) and just stroked the check to the lift coach every week. Not sure on dead lifts....havent seen them in the winter workouts or other lift spreadsheets he gets. Back squat up to 430.
Thanks. My kid is a junior who just starting lifting the last six months. Seeing big strength gains -- it helps if you are weak when you start! ;-) -- which I know will taper off, but my gut is that the lifting may enable a kid to eke out further velocity gains than would have occurred otherwise.
2017LHPscrewball posted:I would not say there is a direct correlation for all individuals. I would think there is a direct correlation for some percentage of pitchers who happen to rely largely on these muscle groups. How large that percentage is and which pitchers fall outside of that group is something I am curious about.
Lincecum is always the poster boy for skinny guys throwing hard. Based on his delivery, too much "strength" would likely prove counter-productive. I suspect the majority of pitchers would benefit from increased strength, but even then only up to a point. From a pure statistical standpoint, I would say strength and velocity are generally correlated, but like many statistics they won't hold up for everyone in the population.
seen Lincecum lately?
seen Lincecum lately?
I saw where someone snapped the photo above of him recently throwing indoors somewhere. The last photo I saw of him in an actual MLB uniform had him a little bit smaller/thinner. Not quite sure he is the poster boy for mph and strength correlation. If that were the case, he should be throwing somewhere around 110 mph these days. Last I red was he is back in the 90's somewhere and still a free agent.
Does Nike sell that shirt off the rack or is it customized for the photo shoot?
coachld posted:...You are getting good advice as the key with swayback is to address posterior pelvic tilt first and foremost. This is accomplished by addressing the tight/weak muscles of the hip complex. Strengthen the hip flexors, glutes, external obliques and stretch the hip extensors. In addition to hips, athletes with swayback should be addressing the upper-crossed syndrome (tight upper-traps, pecs, etc.) which would include improving thoracic spine mobility (extension and rotation). Thoracic rotation is what allows pitchers to create good hip/shoulder separation and thoracic extension is going to help alleviate stress on the low back during the pitching motion. Pitchers who throw hard, typically have great hip/shoulder separation which is only possible with good thoracic spine rotational mobility.
Long story short...IMO...your son should also be working on corrective exercises for upper-body to include soft tissue/mobility work for thoracic spine to include extension and rotation.
Coach LD, why do you keep mixing in Mandarin and Hungarian with your English? 
2017LHPscrewball posted:seen Lincecum lately?
I saw where someone snapped the photo above of him recently throwing indoors somewhere. The last photo I saw of him in an actual MLB uniform had him a little bit smaller/thinner. Not quite sure he is the poster boy for mph and strength correlation. If that were the case, he should be throwing somewhere around 110 mph these days. Last I red was he is back in the 90's somewhere and still a free agent.
Does Nike sell that shirt off the rack or is it customized for the photo shoot?
Working on a comeback at Driveline. Obviously taking a different path now concerning strength training. When he came up, he was the poster boy for not touching weights at all.
cabbagedad posted:coachld posted:...You are getting good advice as the key with swayback is to address posterior pelvic tilt first and foremost. This is accomplished by addressing the tight/weak muscles of the hip complex. Strengthen the hip flexors, glutes, external obliques and stretch the hip extensors. In addition to hips, athletes with swayback should be addressing the upper-crossed syndrome (tight upper-traps, pecs, etc.) which would include improving thoracic spine mobility (extension and rotation). Thoracic rotation is what allows pitchers to create good hip/shoulder separation and thoracic extension is going to help alleviate stress on the low back during the pitching motion. Pitchers who throw hard, typically have great hip/shoulder separation which is only possible with good thoracic spine rotational mobility.
Long story short...IMO...your son should also be working on corrective exercises for upper-body to include soft tissue/mobility work for thoracic spine to include extension and rotation.
Coach LD, why do you keep mixing in Mandarin and Hungarian with your English?
LMAO!
Wonder what Chris Sale can squat?
hsbaseball101 posted:We don't know where throwing velocity comes from. Even with perfect mechanics and good strength you won't turn a 60mph pitcher into a 90mph one after a few months. Explosiveness is obviously a key part of it, but how is an elite pitcher SO explosive in the pitching motion? Often the young kids with velocity aren't explosive in anything else they do, including other sports.
Agree with this. It's a gift from God mostly. It encompasses strength, balance, flexibility (huge), explosiveness and probably a whole bunch of other things. The more you have of oneaybe the less you need of another. So the skinny weak kids who still buggy whip it at 90 are making be ultra flexible or explosive. My son is living proof that squat and deadlift do NOT guarantee velocity. He is hige 16u who will probably be around 80 and he squats about 415-420 and deadlifts 500. Got to look for another magic bullet cause this ain't it lol.
2020dad posted:hsbaseball101 posted:We don't know where throwing velocity comes from. Even with perfect mechanics and good strength you won't turn a 60mph pitcher into a 90mph one after a few months. Explosiveness is obviously a key part of it, but how is an elite pitcher SO explosive in the pitching motion? Often the young kids with velocity aren't explosive in anything else they do, including other sports.
Agree with this. It's a gift from God mostly. It encompasses strength, balance, flexibility (huge), explosiveness and probably a whole bunch of other things. The more you have of oneaybe the less you need of another. So the skinny weak kids who still buggy whip it at 90 are making be ultra flexible or explosive. My son is living proof that squat and deadlift do NOT guarantee velocity. He is hige 16u who will probably be around 80 and he squats about 415-420 and deadlifts 500. Got to look for another magic bullet cause this ain't it lol.
IMO...you are correct in that some players are born with certain physiological traits that give them an advantage. However, in my experience, if all things are equal (meaning great mechanics and timing), then getting stronger and adding mass is going to add velocity.
I obviously have never seen your son throw but I am going to guess (especially with those kind of strength numbers) that his mechanics and timing need improvement...which as you noted...can be as simple as poor flexibility/mobility.
Also...if you look at your prerequisites (gifts from God) to throw hard...strength, balance, flexibility, explosiveness...those are all things that can be trained.
coachld posted:2020dad posted:hsbaseball101 posted:We don't know where throwing velocity comes from. Even with perfect mechanics and good strength you won't turn a 60mph pitcher into a 90mph one after a few months. Explosiveness is obviously a key part of it, but how is an elite pitcher SO explosive in the pitching motion? Often the young kids with velocity aren't explosive in anything else they do, including other sports.
Agree with this. It's a gift from God mostly. It encompasses strength, balance, flexibility (huge), explosiveness and probably a whole bunch of other things. The more you have of oneaybe the less you need of another. So the skinny weak kids who still buggy whip it at 90 are making be ultra flexible or explosive. My son is living proof that squat and deadlift do NOT guarantee velocity. He is hige 16u who will probably be around 80 and he squats about 415-420 and deadlifts 500. Got to look for another magic bullet cause this ain't it lol.
IMO...you are correct in that some players are born with certain physiological traits that give them an advantage. However, in my experience, if all things are equal (meaning great mechanics and timing), then getting stronger and adding mass is going to add velocity.
I obviously have never seen your son throw but I am going to guess (especially with those kind of strength numbers) that his mechanics and timing need improvement...which as you noted...can be as simple as poor flexibility/mobility.
Also...if you look at your prerequisites (gifts from God) to throw hard...strength, balance, flexibility, explosiveness...those are all things that can be trained.
Coach believe me when I tell you I want to believe that. Can all those things be improved I suppose so. Improved enough? I doubt it. My son is very very inflexible. If I thought that could change I would do whatever we I could. He does some yoga - poorly. But I just think those things are many more parts gift than development. If someone has a magic bullet for me to make him suddenly or even eventually flexible I would be very interested. Til then football will still be plan A
2020dad posted:coachld posted:2020dad posted:hsbaseball101 posted:We don't know where throwing velocity comes from. Even with perfect mechanics and good strength you won't turn a 60mph pitcher into a 90mph one after a few months. Explosiveness is obviously a key part of it, but how is an elite pitcher SO explosive in the pitching motion? Often the young kids with velocity aren't explosive in anything else they do, including other sports.
Agree with this. It's a gift from God mostly. It encompasses strength, balance, flexibility (huge), explosiveness and probably a whole bunch of other things. The more you have of oneaybe the less you need of another. So the skinny weak kids who still buggy whip it at 90 are making be ultra flexible or explosive. My son is living proof that squat and deadlift do NOT guarantee velocity. He is hige 16u who will probably be around 80 and he squats about 415-420 and deadlifts 500. Got to look for another magic bullet cause this ain't it lol.
IMO...you are correct in that some players are born with certain physiological traits that give them an advantage. However, in my experience, if all things are equal (meaning great mechanics and timing), then getting stronger and adding mass is going to add velocity.
I obviously have never seen your son throw but I am going to guess (especially with those kind of strength numbers) that his mechanics and timing need improvement...which as you noted...can be as simple as poor flexibility/mobility.
Also...if you look at your prerequisites (gifts from God) to throw hard...strength, balance, flexibility, explosiveness...those are all things that can be trained.
Coach believe me when I tell you I want to believe that. Can all those things be improved I suppose so. Improved enough? I doubt it. My son is very very inflexible. If I thought that could change I would do whatever we I could. He does some yoga - poorly. But I just think those things are many more parts gift than development. If someone has a magic bullet for me to make him suddenly or even eventually flexible I would be very interested. Til then football will still be plan A
I understand what you are saying and agree that there are some who are just not built to pitch. However, I have seen far more who just needed daily soft-tissue/flexibility/mobility work to see enough of an improvement to improve pitching performance. As I told A Daug...thoracic spine mobility plays a big role in separation. Look at slow-motion videos of MLB pitchers and they almost all have great separation. An easy to way to check separation is to pause a video of player pitching at foot strike. Pay attention to direction of hips relative to upper body. Higher velocity are going to have belt buckle pointing towards home plate while the shoulders are square to 3B. If that is not happening, then there is definitely velo in the tank. This can sometimes be corrected using specific pitching drills but for many it requires improved thoracic mobility.
Not trying to convince you that your son is a pitcher at the next level but think it is important that parents understand that many of the flexibility/mobility deficits in young athletes can be improved or corrected all together.
And there are still pitchers in the big leagues with very little separation and just an ultra flexible buggy whip arm. How many mph are still there to be mined? Some for sure. 10? I doubt it. Maybe we will never know.
Football player muscles often don't translate into pitching muscles. On a side note. Does anyone feel like that they can just look at someone and tell that they can throw the cover off of the ball? I've thought this at times, and have been sort of less than impressed.
It can help but i don't think it is as clear as in hitting. In hitting weight and strength almost always help power if mechanics are somewhat decent but being huge and strong doesn't always help throwing velo.
Some pitchers are huge and hulking and throw triple digits and others are thin as a stick and throw really hard. Some if the latin kids are 17, weigh like 150 with no muscle and still throw 96.
On the other hand frank thomas was huge and superthe powerful and barely managed to throw the ball from first to second.
But there are also pitchers who add 30 pounds and go from 86 to 95 so it definitely can help in some cases but not always.
There certainly isn't a direct correlation between strength and throwing, I think it is more like 90% of your velo is "natural" (i.e achieved with full growth, basic fitness, solid mechanics and some playing catch - which isn't quite natural of course) and the last 10% can come through training or not.
So a "natural" 70 mph thrower who deadlifts 180 (what I would call basic fitness) could go to high 70s if he improves deadlift to 350 and the "natural" 85 mph thrower who deadlifts 180 might improve to 92 with some strength.
Dominik - Respectfully, I know you share some good information but I struggle with your generalizations and percentages. Where do you get 90% and 10% from? What about the deadlift numbers? If there is something more to your numbers and you are just trying to simplify things for people, I think you may be misleading them at the same time. I do simplify my responses sometimes because if I didn't, I would be putting people to sleep, so I get it.
I am not an expert nor do I claim to be one. What I do know how to do is follow the lead of the best in the business. I don't know one of them who does not believe that all baseball players of training age, should work to improve strength, power, speed, mobility, stability, etc., so as to improve performance and prevent injury.
Everybody knows of a player or players who do none of the above and still excel but I will continue to trust those do this for living and whose living is dependent on results.
coachld posted:will continue to trust those do this for living and whose living is dependent on results.
Based on my experience, most instructors do more to hinder, than help improve technique. How many of us know people that tell kids to balance over the rubber to start with?
coachld posted:Everybody knows of a player or players who do none of the above and still excel but I will continue to trust those do this for living and whose living is dependent on results.
A huge problem in the entire health and fitness industry is your last sentence. When someone's living is dependent on results they can kinda tend to make things seem more like they had a direct influence on the results.
For example my son's velocity went form 76 freshman year to 83 sophomore year. All he did was eat to many potato chips haha. However during the winter we started throwing bullpens to get his arm ready for the season because I knew he'd be over used and the coaches wouldn't do anything preseason to get him ready. So this year I had one parent after another ask me for lessons and if their kid could come to workouts this winter. If my living was dependent on the results it would have been "my program" that caused the velocity gains. Since I don't charge for lessons I told the parents their kids were welcome but made sure the parents knew I had nothing to do with the increase.
There are wonderful trainers out there but there are a lot of trainers that don't mind fudging a little to pay the rent either. Not to mention the ones that will flat out lie.
SultanofSwat posted:coachld posted:will continue to trust those do this for living and whose living is dependent on results.
Based on my experience, most instructors do more to hinder, than help improve technique. How many of us know people that tell kids to balance over the rubber to start with?
Honestly, I don't think I've ever actually heard an instructor say that. I'm sure there is some guy trying to make money on youtube somewhere. But, I've never heard a paid instructor say that.
