LLWS vs. AABC

I to was watching the games last night (in between listening to the CMWS on the radio..slow night here) and had similar thoughts about CMWS.... at least FSN, Fox Sports SW or ESPN could get at least the championship game on TV.....

Once again, I was confused about all the talk about LLWS pitch counts and and how LL is doing all these studies on pitch count vs innings in order to protect the young arms. As we know, LL has always been all about "protection" and they are right on the money with this study.

What confused me the most after listening to all this talk about pitch counts was how over and over and over again most of these 11-12yo pitchers were throwing 1 to 2 curveballs per batter and the announcers were almost excited about the curveballs and I felt it was sending the wrong message to the young players in the audience, if I was a young player watching and listening I would have walked away thinking I need to develope my curveball right now in order to play at that level/age. I know some of these boys are almost/just turned 13 but it still seemed too young/and too many curves..... but then again I am old fashioned.

Still love LLWS, hope they continue showing as I watch it every year and if all goes right in the world I might just be there in a year or 2 watching my young nephew from Seattle........you can bet Auntie is keeping him from away those curveballs.....

BTW: Did you see the LHP throwing 80mph from start to finish.........talk about domination.....they said it was like seeing 104mph if you compare it to major league distance......

I wish the kid wore his hat right.

I agree OBN -- way too many curveballs!

Lefty's never were thier hat right.

As a mom I just want to shout out, "would ya fix your hat".........after of course "stand up straight, clean up your room, don't spit in public" My lefty is guilty of all of the above except the crooked hat.

The kid was clocked at 80... from 46ft. I don't know how much I believe that because one time he threw a curve and it was 80.

PD- You should remember a certain player hitting 79 from 50 ft. up in Minnesota. The team he did it against could barely touch the ball. They scored two runs off errors. Every ball they hit was to the right side... and they were a big team. I'm not saying the kid didn't throw hard, but I don't know if the radar guns are so reliable. Every once in a while I'd see a reading of 50... and I know that aint right either. I'd also like to say what is the fascination the broadcasters have with kids throwing a curve IF LL is all about protection. I can't help but worry about kids coming out of this thing top pitchers and over using their arms.

PD, kill this thread...

Don't like the discussion, John? No reason to close it....

DTiger -- I have a hard time recalling what our guys threw at specific ages....

I know 80-81 from 46 feet last night on ESPN seemed virtually unhittable.

I think we are comparing apples to oranges. First, at 12 years old you may have some kids that have matured and are physically way ahead of other kids at this age. Second, at 46 feet this is a pitchers game. I was disturbed last night watching the Lousiana kid throw mostly curve balls. This is a shame. When kids hit the high school age, especially 16+ things are pretty much in place physically. This levels things out and talent, desire, work ethic, and other attributes kick in.

I do believe kids in the LLWS are getting better and we know a few kids in this area that have proved they can play at the highest level.

PD- Mr. Slater hit 79 multiple times against the San Diego Angels... I think. I am not here to dispute talent, just how people become consumed with speed at a young age along with harmful offspeed pitches.

Longtoss
And we have one locally Walker Kelly,,,,,,what a thrill it was to watch him in the LLWS and wonder what he was going to do in the year(s) to come and we are seeing it right now on the HS level,,,,,,,,and who knows what the future holds.

There seems to be so much young talent out there playing these days throwing harder, running faster, playing great baseball in LL, Super Series, AABC, Pony, Triple Crown, USSSA and these players are getting bigger, stronger and smarter and hopefully the smarter part will win out and we all hope they have long, successful futures ahead of them.......

It is great to have success today but it is even greater to enjoy the success yet to come!!!! Here's to each and every one of them having years of healthy playing.

Ain't it fun to watch this great game of baseball!!!

It was fun watching Walker Kelly and the gang from Ft. Worth on TV in the LLWS a few years back....I don't remember how far they got but I remember names of some of the key players.

OBN - Great minds must think alike!

PD- i'm sure KK knows, He has notes from waaaay back then, as i recall you guys had the gun out constantly. At 12 my son was throwing 64-66 but he was not the hardest thrower by far. In fact your son may have been.

(Keith todd) he threw hard for 12. He won the hardest throwing contest at 11 threw 73mph.

Cheapseats:
We must have been typing and thinking at the same time....

Too bad we don't have a local team to cheer on this year at the LLWS.........Gotta decide if I am going for the Team from AZ (if they can win today) or our region the team from LA.......either way it will be fun to watch.....

You're right, John -- KK had a gun and it was fun to use as a tool to see how much velocity tailed off after an inning or two -- but we stopped using it shortly thereafter and had a stalker gun out ONCE this year --- at the state tournament at Dallas Christian....largely because there were a few teams there that we did not know.

Keith Todd did throw hard at that age! -- I wonder how he is doing now.

For those of you with better memories than mine -- what were the stats of that game WK pitched in during the Williamsport tournament -- when he dueled another big 13 year old -- didn't they each have 20+ K's? I remember it was amazing to watch.

The other kid was Alvey! from Tennesee. They each went 9 innings then Mikey valdez came in (from catching 9 innings) and served up the HR to Alvey. Mikey is still bitter about it.

I use to think that LL couldn't compare to select / travel teams from a competition standard nor could it prepare those boys for the rigors of HS ball.

I have changed my mind.

A buddy of mine coaches LL in Va., he coached his districts all-stars at the 9/10 state tournament three weeks ago. I spent the following week with him at beach.

In the end, the boys learn the fundamentals. The success they have helps them really love the game. Almost all the baseball in the Tidewater area of VA is LL. A lot of good players come out of those LL districts.

But ESPN is creating a problem highlighting the curveball!

JMO

MeatsDad

about LL and what they give to the game and to the players....

and glad I wasn't the only to notice the highlighting...

Keith Todd for a short period of time was going to play with us 2 years ago. Select baseball is evidently looked down upon in OKC. His HS football and baseball coaches did not want him playing anymore. That entire OKC team was full of hard throwing hard hitting kids.

Now this is just my opinion... Mechanics play a much bigger role in arm troubles than the curveball. (Example)If a player has bad mechanics, getting his body in front of his arm (which most kids do) then they are putting way more stress on thier elbows (medial ligament)than the curveball ever will. AND if your body is in front of your arm it is very difficult to get the ball to curve, thus crating more stress on the elbow because they are again overthrowing. IMO

I agree. There is a right and wrong way to throw curves. I learned the right way after my 13 year old season and have thrown it fine without arm troubles since. When kids don't know the correct way, they try to use their body to create movement-causing the arm to drag behind. This may be affective but puts tons of stress on the arm. One kid who use to have a NASTY duece but hurt his elbow multiple times- Tanner Toal (spelling?). He torqued his body and hurt his elbow multiple times.

2002 Chris Slater hit 79 mph, on the jugs, from 50'. He did this against the Texas Blackhawks in the semi's of the AAU 12U Nationals in Minn.

By the Way Panther Son hit 76 that same tounament against a team from Ohio, I think. I know they were from the Midwest.

how hard was tanner toal throwing back then

I never heard what he hit on a radar gun, but from facing him multiple times when he was 12 and especially 13 (after his first elbow injury) he was still throwing HARD.

Meatsdad,

I disagree on the LL vs select ball thing. My son's team played that FW Westside team when they were 12 over at Arc and beat them pretty good. Of course WK had pitched the previous game, I believe against John G's team, so he was used up, but after that their pitching could not compare against other select teams. MV was a very nice pitcher, but no WK. If you wanted to pit the best from LL to a very good select team, I say it's not even close. And it shouldn't be, LL has very small boundaries to choose from, and select does not. I think pitching depth is the biggest problem between the two.

Like you JMO. Take it for what it's worth

I remember that team when they played at Arc Park the year after thier trip to the LLWS, every select team was gunning for them and the West Siders had a difficult summer if I remember right.

Kellerdad you are right...I coached that group when they were 9 and 10's, then several good players (including my son) went on to play select, If we had stayed together it would have been a pretty competitive team. That next year after the LLWS everybody, especially the monarc's took great pride in beating them. made for a tough season for them. they went on to the LLWS at 14 too. (not televised)

I think there is really no comparison between
LLWS and AABC especially at 12u.
First LL has tight bases, no drop third strike, no
pick offs, no stealing.
AABC is much better, IMO

LL is about teaching fundamentals and protecting the players and they do an amazing job. The game is so different than Select that it is hard to compare the 2 by the game they play but maybe you can compare them by what they give to each player.

A huge difference I notice when watching a LL game on TV is what I see in the spectators, they really get into it, the SPIRIT is amazing......My youngest sister lives in Seattle and her son is a LL player and she is always talking about what signs they are making, what banners they have made, what shirts they are wearing and what they are doing for the team etc.

Yes, in some cases it seems very juvenile to me coming from the Select community I think because we wouldn't think to go "all out" the way they do at a select game (at age 12 and 13) let alone at a tournament....

But,,,,, you know when I watch it on TV and I see all the signs, the cheers, the chants, the face painting I smile and say to myself "now they are really having fun at this".......and I wonder did miss something along the way chasing the select dream??????

Yes LL and Select are different animals and players that choose to go the route of LL do play shorter bases/pitching and they play tight bases later than most of us, these player have the ability to play on the bigger field, but they choose to do it maybe out of tradition or maybe because they grew up watching the LL World Series on TV and they are now chasing the dream of playing at Williamsport..............

quote:

Originally posted by oldbat-never:
... but they choose to do it maybe out of tradition or maybe because they grew up watching the LL World Series on TV and they are now chasing the dream of playing at Williamsport..............

Great observtion. That's what we're all doing. Providing opportunity for our sons to follow their dreams, whatever they may be!

Collikar,
And ain't it great that we can

provide that opportunity.......and we get to go along on the ride with them.........

Hope your tranisition back to school goes well, man these summerbreaks sure are great but never lonnnnnng enough......

As a parent who has experienced both, I'd choose LL over AABC from age 10-12 any day. My oldest 2 did LL 10-12 and my youngest did LL at 10 before moving to Texas. They remember every game during the LL playoffs, whether city, regional or state playoffs. One of the biggest differences I see is that LL is comprised of kids from the same community whereas AABC/select could be teams with boys from all over. My older 2 developed friendships with boys he then went to high school with whereas the youngest has boys from several cities and none from even his junior high. This helps because high school ball in the summer was Mon-Thurs and select was tourneys on the weekends with a few missed weekday games. Both had their own degree of importance. Not having experienced "tight bases, no drop third strike, no pick offs, no stealing" until he was 13 didn't hurt my oldest in Texas high school ball or select ball. IMHO I would keep the community bonding over the experience of "real baseball rules" while their young and save select ball for the older, 13 and up, boys.

NRPMOM,
Welcome back from New Mexico. Nice article in today's our local paper about your son........Congrats and see you in the Spring when our 2 schools meet.

NRPMom, I have to agree-my son played Little League through 12. His team was the Texas champion and lost in the finals in Florida in extra innings-one run away from Williamsport! I can honestly say we have never-in the last five years of select-had an experience like that summer. We still watch the LL World Series and think "If only..." Awesome experience.
Funny thing-we ran into some of the Louisiana players from the team that knocked our team out at the Area Code tryouts this summer! It's funny how they could remember each other from that one experience five years ago. My husband and their dads had fun catching up on the other players as well. It didn't seem to hurt my son and his teammates to have stuck with LL that long (or the Louisiana boys either!)

Welcome Pitcher08 -- and excellent first post (in USSSA topic). That game is memorable for all that watched it...and I know the participants will never forget it. I agree with your comments concerning LL boundries limiting the talent pool, like HS baseball, but to an extent HS is worse......a HS team is not an all-star team. At least you were able to pick the best in your group of teams.

Some here have expressed the opinion that HS baseball is not as important as Select. But that's a discussion for another topic.

Thanks for helping us recall that great game in 2002.

NRP, great points and congrats on your Farmington experience. We were rooting for the success of all our Texas representatives!

OBN, transition seems to be going smoothly. T is as goofy as ever when it comes to school. I know B will have a phenominal year! Send him continued well wishes.

My son went to the CMWS and to the LL States. We loved Ll. One big difference i see is that in LL the kids are friends who go to school together, play together, etc. There is a real sense of community. The kids get interviewed by the paper and really take a lot of pride in playing for the community.

Select ball is definitely more advanced skill wise, but there is nothing like LL all-stars. jmo

I remember my little league days fondly at NW Garland LL. Playing league games against my middle school buddies and being selected to the Williamsport team meant more to me and my friends than playing select ball at 13 or 14 did. Of course, ball got much more serious once we got to HS.

When I first got into coaching baseball back in 1994 I returned to my old LL and had a great time coaching 13-15 year-olds in Senior League before moving to BBI in 1996. Something very special and more pure about LL IMO.