Bee,
Most of the LL all-star kids play tournaments and fall ball under OBR. The kids who moved from LL to Pony as 13yo in our area had no problems adjusting.
CADad
It's tough adjusting with your arm in a sling.
Saw an interesting column on the LL pitchers.
rest of the article
It's tough adjusting with your arm in a sling.
Saw an interesting column on the LL pitchers.
quote:Dr. Joseph Chandler, an orthopedic consultant for the Atlanta Braves, plans on being in Williamsport this week to track how many breaking pitches are thrown. He tracked 13 games in 2001 and reported 37 percent of the pitches thrown were curves and other breaking balls. In the championship game that year -- involving Apopka and Tokyo -- Chandler told The New York Times that 64 percent of the pitches thrown were breaking balls.
rest of the article
Dad04,
I agree that the curve is overused in the LLWS and other all-star tournaments. The fact is that the hitters are ahead of all but the hardest throwers and few of the kids have effective change-ups while most of the hitters haven't learned to read the spin or arm motion of a curve and so curves are thrown. I think this happens even more in the PONY 13 tournaments where distance has increased by 8' but fastballs have only increased by 5 or 6 mph. I saw kids with mid to high 70s fastballs, who also had breaking pitches, getting hammered at times in that tournament.
We had the kid who won the LLWS US championship game last year playing in our league this year and I do know that his coach had him on a strict curve limit through most of the season. He was injured during all-stars but his arm was fine.
I agree that the curve is overused in the LLWS and other all-star tournaments. The fact is that the hitters are ahead of all but the hardest throwers and few of the kids have effective change-ups while most of the hitters haven't learned to read the spin or arm motion of a curve and so curves are thrown. I think this happens even more in the PONY 13 tournaments where distance has increased by 8' but fastballs have only increased by 5 or 6 mph. I saw kids with mid to high 70s fastballs, who also had breaking pitches, getting hammered at times in that tournament.
We had the kid who won the LLWS US championship game last year playing in our league this year and I do know that his coach had him on a strict curve limit through most of the season. He was injured during all-stars but his arm was fine.
cadad, this was several yrs ago - and the only fall ball in the midwest for kids that age was played with a pigskin.
98% of the postseason tournys were played under LL rules to accomodate them, as even the best LL all-star teams could not function under OBR.
The increased popularity recently of "travel teams" has led to some recent adjustments I'm sure -
98% of the postseason tournys were played under LL rules to accomodate them, as even the best LL all-star teams could not function under OBR.
The increased popularity recently of "travel teams" has led to some recent adjustments I'm sure -
bee,
Given that I just read a post on another board from a 13yo team that is going to start playing USSSA tournaments having never played OBR I'd have to guess the circumstances you were referring to apply many places today also.
Given that I just read a post on another board from a 13yo team that is going to start playing USSSA tournaments having never played OBR I'd have to guess the circumstances you were referring to apply many places today also.
Guys, though I agree that LL rules (specifically pitching, leadoffs, dropped third strikes) are a little behind the other organizations, it doesn't hurt a pitcher (or baserunner) in his development. If they learn the set position, pickoffs, leadoffs, etc., a little later it has absolutely no negative influence on their future development. Good teaching takes care of all that.
My boy plasy both little league and travel ball, and I will say this, he can hit twice as many home runs in a travel tournament with a big barrel bat on 240-300 foot fields than he can on a 200 foot LL field with a 2 1/4" bat with the pitcher only 46 feet away. Our LL team lost to Davenport NW in the state tournament, so we are no slouches. Only had 3 HR's at state on a 190 foot field with LL rules. Went to a USSSA tournament on bigger field the next weekend and hit 21 home runs.
Just a little more fuel to the fire
The entire league we played in hit less than 30 home runs this year
Just a little more fuel to the fire
The entire league we played in hit less than 30 home runs this year
spinedoc,
That actually caused a problem for us last year. We put together a team to play a Memorial Day Weekend tournament that included some players we were considering for the all-star team. One of them had a big tournament hitting a couple out. I ended up grabbing him instead of another player who had hit for more power during the regular season who didn't hit well at all against the tournament pitching.
Unfortunately, once we went back to the smaller bats his power vanished.
That actually caused a problem for us last year. We put together a team to play a Memorial Day Weekend tournament that included some players we were considering for the all-star team. One of them had a big tournament hitting a couple out. I ended up grabbing him instead of another player who had hit for more power during the regular season who didn't hit well at all against the tournament pitching.
Unfortunately, once we went back to the smaller bats his power vanished.
Grateful
I disagree. This past spring, our HS program selected three 7th graders over other 8th and 9th grade kids for the JV team. Specifically, they were "far advanced" over the other boys. The HS coach said that the boy's skill level and knowledge level "didn't even compare" to the rec players. These three boys are the result of the first "group" of boys in our area to leave rec ball and play travel ball exclusively since they were 9 and 10yo.
BTW, a few years prior, that same HS coach said that travel ball would "ruin his future HS ball players". He is very happy with what he is getting now, in terms of knowledge, experience and quality. I know that there were kids that were convinced that they were going to make the HS team that were simply left behind. Can those boys catch up? Certainly some, but why play catch-up and sit out and possibly lose any chance to play HS ball. Seems risky to me. JMO.
quote:Guys, though I agree that LL rules (specifically pitching, leadoffs, dropped third strikes) are a little behind the other organizations, it doesn't hurt a pitcher (or baserunner) in his development.
I disagree. This past spring, our HS program selected three 7th graders over other 8th and 9th grade kids for the JV team. Specifically, they were "far advanced" over the other boys. The HS coach said that the boy's skill level and knowledge level "didn't even compare" to the rec players. These three boys are the result of the first "group" of boys in our area to leave rec ball and play travel ball exclusively since they were 9 and 10yo.
BTW, a few years prior, that same HS coach said that travel ball would "ruin his future HS ball players". He is very happy with what he is getting now, in terms of knowledge, experience and quality. I know that there were kids that were convinced that they were going to make the HS team that were simply left behind. Can those boys catch up? Certainly some, but why play catch-up and sit out and possibly lose any chance to play HS ball. Seems risky to me. JMO.
Callaway,
How do 7th graders get on a HS JV program? Around here the middle schools are separate from the HS and there's no middle school ball except at a very few private schools.
The frosh/soph team is almost always entirely freshman and only a very few freshman make JV. I've never seen a 7th grader that would have had much chance to make one of our JV teams even if they were allowed to, although we do have the ocassional freshman make Varsity who is usually equivalent to a good JV player. This year we did have one 14yo freshman make varsity who was a solid varsity player, but he looked more mature than most of the varsity players and was one of the bigger players on the team.
How do 7th graders get on a HS JV program? Around here the middle schools are separate from the HS and there's no middle school ball except at a very few private schools.
The frosh/soph team is almost always entirely freshman and only a very few freshman make JV. I've never seen a 7th grader that would have had much chance to make one of our JV teams even if they were allowed to, although we do have the ocassional freshman make Varsity who is usually equivalent to a good JV player. This year we did have one 14yo freshman make varsity who was a solid varsity player, but he looked more mature than most of the varsity players and was one of the bigger players on the team.
quote:Originally posted by Callaway:
Gratefulquote:Guys, though I agree that LL rules (specifically pitching, leadoffs, dropped third strikes) are a little behind the other organizations, it doesn't hurt a pitcher (or baserunner) in his development.
I disagree. This past spring, our HS program selected three 7th graders over other 8th and 9th grade kids for the JV team. Specifically, they were "far advanced" over the other boys. The HS coach said that the boy's skill level and knowledge level "didn't even compare" to the rec players. These three boys are the result of the first "group" of boys in our area to leave rec ball and play travel ball exclusively since they were 9 and 10yo.
BTW, a few years prior, that same HS coach said that travel ball would "ruin his future HS ball players". He is very happy with what he is getting now, in terms of knowledge, experience and quality. I know that there were kids that were convinced that they were going to make the HS team that were simply left behind. Can those boys catch up? Certainly some, but why play catch-up and sit out and possibly lose any chance to play HS ball. Seems risky to me. JMO.
Callaway,
i understand what you are saying, but a little teaching/coaching can go a long way. I'll give you an example.
When my son was 12 and his team only played in LL and in tournaments with LL rules, we entered them in a 13 year old tournament. I had a 90 minute practice the night before the tournament began, and the only thing we did was work on pitching from the stretch, leadoffs, steals, pickoffs. We finished second in the tournament. Our team was the only team in the tournament that did not have a balk.
My son and his teammates did just fine when they advanced into high school. Ane he is now a fine DI pitcher and pro prospect.
So I see your point, but at the same time, a little teaching/coaching with some players that will listen will do wonders.
Callaway
I don't think it is the specific rules that make travel teams better, it is hte fact that some of them practice 60 times a year and play 80 games. No matter what the rules are, with that much time to work on your "craft", you will see an advancement in skill, as long as the ability is there also.
And CADad, I know exactly what you mean. I have met some scary looking young ball players until you put a small barrel in their hand.
I also wonder about 7th grade JV players, in IA you must complete your 8th grade year before moving on to any level of HS ball, no matter your talent level.
I don't think it is the specific rules that make travel teams better, it is hte fact that some of them practice 60 times a year and play 80 games. No matter what the rules are, with that much time to work on your "craft", you will see an advancement in skill, as long as the ability is there also.
And CADad, I know exactly what you mean. I have met some scary looking young ball players until you put a small barrel in their hand.
I also wonder about 7th grade JV players, in IA you must complete your 8th grade year before moving on to any level of HS ball, no matter your talent level.
I saw a promo on ESPN while watching the Hawaii game today and it show the largest Little League player in history up against the smallest ever. They will face head to head tomorrow on ESPN. The small kid is from Japan and he is only 4'10 and maybe 80 lbs. But the big kid, get this, is 6'5" and 240 lbs. They said that he doesn't have the coordination to pitch but he is supposebly a MASHER. Should be fun to watch, Japan vs _______?
CADad
In SC, 7th graders can play JV if they're good enough. Granted, it is rare, and the logistics are a an obvious factor, but it is permissible.
Grateful
If you can teach the nuances that you described in 90 minutes, than you are truely a great coach.
spinedoc
I agree. In fact, I would use that as an additional argument for travel ball. Plus the fact that you have player's that are the best of the best playing together. They improve each other.
Travel ball is just better, plain and simple. JMO.
In SC, 7th graders can play JV if they're good enough. Granted, it is rare, and the logistics are a an obvious factor, but it is permissible.
Grateful
If you can teach the nuances that you described in 90 minutes, than you are truely a great coach.
spinedoc
I agree. In fact, I would use that as an additional argument for travel ball. Plus the fact that you have player's that are the best of the best playing together. They improve each other.
Travel ball is just better, plain and simple. JMO.
Callaway....
Great coach might be stretching it a bit, but when you have coached college guys for a living for decades, spoken at several clinics and worked with kids of all ages at camps, it is much easier to be thorough when teaching a new skill and/or concept to kids who want to learn.
Great coach might be stretching it a bit, but when you have coached college guys for a living for decades, spoken at several clinics and worked with kids of all ages at camps, it is much easier to be thorough when teaching a new skill and/or concept to kids who want to learn.
Interesting thread ... and since we were blessed enough to have a son go to the Little League World Series, representing the Western Region (when there were only 4) in 1995, who went on to play travel ball, I may have a different perspective on Little League and the roll I believe it plays in our country.
There are lots of things that could be improved in Little League, especially for the 11-12 year olds. For many, by the time the world series comes around, they seem to have outgrown the fields. But not all Little Leaguers are that physically mature as we can all tell from their vital statistics.
I believe Little League is "good" TV because more people can relate to it than the more sophisticated travel/elite squads. The program is international and in 1995, over 7,000 All Star teams started the process that took 8 teams to Williamsport. (It takes talent and some luck along the way to get there!!!) As a result, I belive that more people understand the excitement of it because the numbers are so big ... and so, they watch it and it becomes "good" TV from a marketing standpoint.
Wherever there is a Little League program, it gives the local "ball players" an opportunity and a place to play, even if they aren't the most talented or skilled. Not every young player should be competing at higher levels of competition ... an understatement of the decade I am sure ... and I honestly believe that the "travel teams", which were once considered the more elite programs, have been diluted in talent because the more average players are "moving up". Each year it seems there is a new league somewhere that is drawing the best of the best up to a new level to counteract the dilution of talent, and it almost seems like a never ending cycle. (I will say that I am not a proponent for travel ball at the early ages ... I think 11/12 are good ages to start but that is strictly a personal opinion and one that my husband and I both share, and he was the coach of the average. below average, and above averge players in LL, AABC, AAU, tournament teams, etc., so I value his opinion immensely.) During the winter before our son's All Star summer, two of our LL coaches formed a tournament team for the winter. The plan was to get the most likely All Star candidates to play together as a team ... at the time, it was an interesting concept for a very competitive group that was used to playing against the other All Star players, not with them. It was not something that was done in our area 10 years ago. In retrospect, that effort seems to have played a significant role in their summer success as they headed to Williamsport with a record of 20 and 1.
Personally, we didn't see the LL experience as harmful to the players' future successes. Of the 12 players that traveled to Williamsport, 9 went on to play in high school (most on the same team), 8 went on to play in college (4 year and JUCO), and now there are 4 playing professionally (all 4 were 4-year college players) ... 2 drafted as juniors, one drafted as a senior, and one signing as a free agent.
Yes, LL could be better, could be more competitive, but I believe it serves a good purpose in our society, I believe it makes for "good TV", and I for one always watch the LLWS in August. And I still bring out the video tapes of our son's games in 1995 ... usually after the series is over.
JMHO after being there, doing that, and "buying the t-shirt"
There are lots of things that could be improved in Little League, especially for the 11-12 year olds. For many, by the time the world series comes around, they seem to have outgrown the fields. But not all Little Leaguers are that physically mature as we can all tell from their vital statistics.
I believe Little League is "good" TV because more people can relate to it than the more sophisticated travel/elite squads. The program is international and in 1995, over 7,000 All Star teams started the process that took 8 teams to Williamsport. (It takes talent and some luck along the way to get there!!!) As a result, I belive that more people understand the excitement of it because the numbers are so big ... and so, they watch it and it becomes "good" TV from a marketing standpoint.
Wherever there is a Little League program, it gives the local "ball players" an opportunity and a place to play, even if they aren't the most talented or skilled. Not every young player should be competing at higher levels of competition ... an understatement of the decade I am sure ... and I honestly believe that the "travel teams", which were once considered the more elite programs, have been diluted in talent because the more average players are "moving up". Each year it seems there is a new league somewhere that is drawing the best of the best up to a new level to counteract the dilution of talent, and it almost seems like a never ending cycle. (I will say that I am not a proponent for travel ball at the early ages ... I think 11/12 are good ages to start but that is strictly a personal opinion and one that my husband and I both share, and he was the coach of the average. below average, and above averge players in LL, AABC, AAU, tournament teams, etc., so I value his opinion immensely.) During the winter before our son's All Star summer, two of our LL coaches formed a tournament team for the winter. The plan was to get the most likely All Star candidates to play together as a team ... at the time, it was an interesting concept for a very competitive group that was used to playing against the other All Star players, not with them. It was not something that was done in our area 10 years ago. In retrospect, that effort seems to have played a significant role in their summer success as they headed to Williamsport with a record of 20 and 1.
Personally, we didn't see the LL experience as harmful to the players' future successes. Of the 12 players that traveled to Williamsport, 9 went on to play in high school (most on the same team), 8 went on to play in college (4 year and JUCO), and now there are 4 playing professionally (all 4 were 4-year college players) ... 2 drafted as juniors, one drafted as a senior, and one signing as a free agent.
Yes, LL could be better, could be more competitive, but I believe it serves a good purpose in our society, I believe it makes for "good TV", and I for one always watch the LLWS in August. And I still bring out the video tapes of our son's games in 1995 ... usually after the series is over.
JMHO after being there, doing that, and "buying the t-shirt"
The GIANT at 6'4 236 lbs w/size 18 foot plays for the Transatlantic team from Saudi Arabia who's father at 6'8 is one of the team coaches. Ironically the kid wasn't in the starting lineup and only saw one AB and struck out. Some kid from Cal with facial hair just K'd 18 against Kentucky.
BB, understand virtually all of the boys are from U.S. families working overseas.
p.s the entire team dyed their hair blond for the tourny.
Saw an interesting column on the LL pitchers.
quote:
Dr. Joseph Chandler, an orthopedic consultant for the Atlanta Braves, plans on being in Williamsport this week to track how many breaking pitches are thrown. He tracked 13 games in 2001 and reported 37 percent of the pitches thrown were curves and other breaking balls. In the championship game that year -- involving Apopka and Tokyo -- Chandler told The New York Times that 64 percent of the pitches thrown were breaking balls.
Dad04
This is such an important piece of the puzzle.
Every top MLB broadcasting team is commenting about this in pre-game banter. The concern is overwhelming but I am afraid it falls on deaf ears.
With winning around the corner the long-term implications of excessive curve balls doesn't add up yet, for coaches, parents and ESPN! who ARE constantly marveling at a 12 year olds stuff!
I have a relative who is playing for Maine and was beaten today by, coincidentally, Lafayette....
I am hoping he has a healthy arm for more than another decade.
quote:
Dr. Joseph Chandler, an orthopedic consultant for the Atlanta Braves, plans on being in Williamsport this week to track how many breaking pitches are thrown. He tracked 13 games in 2001 and reported 37 percent of the pitches thrown were curves and other breaking balls. In the championship game that year -- involving Apopka and Tokyo -- Chandler told The New York Times that 64 percent of the pitches thrown were breaking balls.
Dad04
This is such an important piece of the puzzle.
Every top MLB broadcasting team is commenting about this in pre-game banter. The concern is overwhelming but I am afraid it falls on deaf ears.
With winning around the corner the long-term implications of excessive curve balls doesn't add up yet, for coaches, parents and ESPN! who ARE constantly marveling at a 12 year olds stuff!
I have a relative who is playing for Maine and was beaten today by, coincidentally, Lafayette....
I am hoping he has a healthy arm for more than another decade.
quote:Originally posted by MT07LHP:
The GIANT at 6'4 236 lbs w/size 18 foot plays for the Transatlantic team from Saudi Arabia who's father at 6'8 is one of the team coaches. Ironically the kid wasn't in the starting lineup and only saw one AB and struck out. Some kid from Cal with facial hair just K'd 18 against Kentucky.
A friend of mine played with the Rota Spain team that was beaten by Saudi Arabia efore Williamsport. His son played on one of our travel teams before being transferred to Spain. He said the travel teams were WAAAAY ahead of the LL teams he saw, including Saudi Arabia. He did say the big kid is pretty darn good.
FWIW, almost all of the overseas teams teams are children of military people stationed tere.
Redbird, agree that many of the kids on the overseas teams are military personnel but heard that most of the kids on the Saudi team are of families involved in the oil industry.
All I have to say is Pimental is amazing. Unhittable! Is he really 12?
Yes he is 12. He just matured alot earlier than most kids. He hits the ball hard and he throws like a cather when pitching. I believe about 9 players play travel ball on the RBV team and they have good qulaity coaching. The whole county of San Diego is behind them and we are hoping they go all the way.
Pimental is hellava player but one has to question the quality of the RBV coachinig staff when the kid is catching the day after throwing a complete game.
Catching after pitching isn't much of a strain in little league. He isn't going to have anybody stealing bases...the only thing he is going to do is toss the ball back to the pitcher each time
Call me cautious but IMO throwing the ball back to the pitcher about 100 times or so during the course of the game is a strain on the arm of a kid that pitched a complete game the day before not to mention game situations which may arise where the kid fires a throw instinctively.
Hey Irish, you guys making the trip to Vegas in September? If so we have to meet up.
Take care.
Take care.
bbb...
Unfortunately, no. That is one of the best tournies we played in all year...everyone enjoyed it.
The Irish, though, are breaking up. We have some parents with stars in their eyes and think their child is too good for this level of play, so they have 'moved on' to allegedly greener pastures. So the "better" players are forming a new team, while the "lower" players (and some of the more allegiant players) are remaining with the Irish. Unfortunately, nobody has really made any firm commitments yet. So basically, if we have a team, it will likely be a good AA team, or average at best AAA team.
Good run while it lasted
Unfortunately, no. That is one of the best tournies we played in all year...everyone enjoyed it.
The Irish, though, are breaking up. We have some parents with stars in their eyes and think their child is too good for this level of play, so they have 'moved on' to allegedly greener pastures. So the "better" players are forming a new team, while the "lower" players (and some of the more allegiant players) are remaining with the Irish. Unfortunately, nobody has really made any firm commitments yet. So basically, if we have a team, it will likely be a good AA team, or average at best AAA team.
Good run while it lasted
Interesting situation this evening. CA plays in a game to decide #1 or #2 seed. #2 seed plays Hawaii in the semis, not an appealing prospect.
However, Hawaii threw their ace in their final pool play game. If CA tanks, or just plain loses tonight's game and faces Hawaii in the semi's they could throw their best pitcher against Hawaii's #2 and then if they were to win still have a pretty good shot at beating the winner of the other semi and be able to bring back their ace for the LLWS championship game.
However, Hawaii threw their ace in their final pool play game. If CA tanks, or just plain loses tonight's game and faces Hawaii in the semi's they could throw their best pitcher against Hawaii's #2 and then if they were to win still have a pretty good shot at beating the winner of the other semi and be able to bring back their ace for the LLWS championship game.
CADad
I always play to win, but the way Hawaii looks, that may not be the worst idea. The least they should do is save their ace for Hawaii, I would take him against any other pitcher out there right now.
I always play to win, but the way Hawaii looks, that may not be the worst idea. The least they should do is save their ace for Hawaii, I would take him against any other pitcher out there right now.
Looks like they plan on throwing Pimental against FL tonight
IrishDad,
What makes you say that? If you're right who do you think they'd use vs. Hawaii - Lewis? I think they may be over rating their ability to hit vs Hawaii's pitching if they do throw Pimental more than an inning tonight. Perhaps they're looking to winning it all and want to have Pimental to go against Japan?
Personally, I don't think they are likely to beat Hawaii without their ace going.
What makes you say that? If you're right who do you think they'd use vs. Hawaii - Lewis? I think they may be over rating their ability to hit vs Hawaii's pitching if they do throw Pimental more than an inning tonight. Perhaps they're looking to winning it all and want to have Pimental to go against Japan?
Personally, I don't think they are likely to beat Hawaii without their ace going.
They may not get to Hawaii without their ace pitching tonight. Florida is a decent team and I'm assuming they'll throw Bichette Jr.
Jason
Jason
Flipp,
Good point. This is similar to last year when Texas had to throw their ace in the semi's and Conejo was able to hold back their ace for the US finals. I think Hawaii is in the driver's seat.
Good point. This is similar to last year when Texas had to throw their ace in the semi's and Conejo was able to hold back their ace for the US finals. I think Hawaii is in the driver's seat.
quote:Vista will pitch ace hurler (and slugger) Pimentel against Maitland, 7:30 p.m. Wednesday at Lamade Stadium.
LLWS WebSite
Doesn't make sense to me either. If they are gonna start him, I hope they at least only throw him an inning or two to save something for Hawaii!
Which team has the overall best shot of winning the 'ship? Thanks for your suggestions. EDIT
"It looks like a Hawaii v. Cali US finals, although I would really like to see a Lafayette v. Maitland game." Dad O4, you nailed in on the head and left a goosebump. Bichette Jr. looks exactly like his daddy. The ESPN team said that JR. won't pitch anymore after the series because Daddy doesn't want to ruin the arm.
"It looks like a Hawaii v. Cali US finals, although I would really like to see a Lafayette v. Maitland game." Dad O4, you nailed in on the head and left a goosebump. Bichette Jr. looks exactly like his daddy. The ESPN team said that JR. won't pitch anymore after the series because Daddy doesn't want to ruin the arm.
quote:This is such an important piece of the puzzle.
Every top MLB broadcasting team is commenting about this in pre-game banter. The concern is overwhelming but I am afraid it falls on deaf ears.
Chill
The announcers mentioned briefly that LL is studying 12 leagues for pitch counts and type per game per pitcher, for possible rules making. It's a step forward.
My kid threw 3 complete games in LL "Top Team" at 13...in a week. That's too much....I know now.
It looks like a Hawaii v. Cali US finals, although I would really like to see a Lafayette v. Maitland game.
Maitland got jobbed out of a HR. Bad call blue.
quote:Originally posted by Dad04:
Maitland got jobbed out of a HR. Bad call blue.
Missed the call, yes. Difficult play to call. Without the replays I thought it hit the top of the fence.
That missed call and the mini strike zone cancel each other out as far as the outcome to this game in my opinion.