Long Toss , versus Bullpen and building velocity.

I got eye strain for reading all of this stuff.

FWIW, for all the work your son is doing, mine didn't do half of it and his peak velocity was way higher than 70 at 13-14.. At 15 he was in his 80's already. All from tossing, conditioning, not from pitching from the mound.

I'll bet if you got rid of what he was doing, go on a true LT program for age appropriate, you would be amazed at the increase when he takes the mound.

quote:

I got eye strain for reading all of this stuff.

FWIW, for all the work your son is doing, mine didn't do half of it and his peak velocity was way higher than 70 at 13-14.. At 15 he was in his 80's already. All from tossing, conditioning, not from pitching from the mound.

I'll bet if you got rid of what he was doing, go on a true LT program for age appropriate, you would be amazed at the increase when he takes the mound.

I never said his peak velocity was 70. And neither is he 14 years old. He is in the seventh grade, is 13 1/2 years old. Last summer in all-stars he was clocked in the upper 60's. Don't know what his actual peak velocity is, but would guess at minimum it is around 72-74 now. Our season just started, they have played 6 games, we live in cold weather climate so our season goes from now until fall in october. Son throws as hard or harder than the average travel team 14u (one year older than son) pitchers he plays against. Would guess that son ends season throwing around 75 mph. Next year he should be approaching if not hitting 80 and by this time two years from now as a freshman in HS he should be in the low 80's at minimum, so I do not figure how you say that my kid is behind?

I sure hope your son "continues to throw hard." And he better have some other stuff to go with it. The way you're training him, he's a "pitcher only" already at the age of 13. Wow.

quote:

I have seen catchers light up the radar gun throwing down to second with throws reaching near mid 90 mph.

Gingerbread,

I have been fortunate enough to see and even put the radar gun and stop watch on nearly every catcher drafted over the past 15 years. I've never seen anything near mid 90s. In fact, I can only think of two catchers that have ever touched 90 mph. Where have you seen these catchers lighting up the gun with mid 90s throws to second base? I'd like to know who they are.

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:

quote:

I got eye strain for reading all of this stuff.

FWIW, for all the work your son is doing, mine didn't do half of it and his peak velocity was way higher than 70 at 13-14.. At 15 he was in his 80's already. All from tossing, conditioning, not from pitching from the mound.

I'll bet if you got rid of what he was doing, go on a true LT program for age appropriate, you would be amazed at the increase when he takes the mound.

I never said his peak velocity was 70. And neither is he 14 years old. He is in the seventh grade, is 13 1/2 years old. Last summer in all-stars he was clocked in the upper 60's. Don't know what his actual peak velocity is, but would guess at minimum it is around 72-74 now. Our season just started, they have played 6 games, we live in cold weather climate so our season goes from now until fall in october. Son throws as hard or harder than the average travel team 14u (one year older than son) pitchers he plays against. Would guess that son ends season throwing around 75 mph. Next year he should be approaching if not hitting 80 and by this time two years from now as a freshman in HS he should be in the low 80's at minimum, so I do not figure how you say that my kid is behind?

Put your specs on, I did not say that he was behind did I? You said he threw 70, now you changed it (go back and read). And how do you know what his velocity will be in the future? He may just max out before he's 15.

Coach brings up a good point, why not try a LT program?

Do you actually think that your son will continue whatever program you guys have come up with forever, or is it just a quest to make him the hardest 13.5 year old pitcher around?

We are not against you, you can do as you wish, but remember this topic you began, in fact copy it and print it out.

Bulldog brings up a good point? Does your son pitch only? Does he play other positions?

Listen, I am not a pitching instructor, these guys here know a lot more than me, but lots of it is common sense.

PG,
90 mph catchers don't exist because they have become 90 mph pitchers or maybe Idaho potatoes have something to do with it?

Let it go everybody, he will not listen.
Anyway, what happens if the kid take's the advice and gets hurt.
Then the dad will have something to blame it on.

Wait 5 years and we will see if there's a top pitcher coming out of Idaho.

EH

Can't throw as hard coming up from a crouch with a quick release as you can off the mound. An example would be Robert Stock who throws up around 94 and I doubt very much he reaches 90 as a catcher.

GBM
Ever think that maybe the velo increase is due to your son maturing and not what he is doing on the mound?

Wow this is about a frustrating thread to read.
How come no one is mentioning perhaps a bit more holistic approach?
A little long toss, a little mound work, some specific conditioning, great diet. My coinage would recommend this vs one or the other. Just chiming this as yet another possible alternative that in my experience works great.
I will though join and say that throwing post cooling down is bad business, particularly the unsupervised way in which you describe it. 50, or 100 pitches in my opinion the amount doesn't matter so much as the unsupervised throwing after cool down.

quote:

Originally posted by pioneers3:
GBM
Ever think that maybe the velo increase is due to your son maturing and not what he is doing on the mound?

LOL! Someone once asked what my son did to increase his velocity so significantly. I told the person he grew significantly.

TPM,

Son does play other positions. When he isn't pitching he plays short-stop and first base. Most of his practicing though is middle infield and learning footwork and angles. He used to catch also but this year he is taking a break from that position. Last fall he played center field and did well. So he is a well rounded player who knows each position fairly well.

No, my quest isn't to make him the best 13 year old pitcher around. My quest is to both preserve and strengthen kids arm so that he does well in HS and possibly beyond.

Have thought about doing a LT program but am probably not going to start it this year midstream. There is a part of me that doesn't want to try it because it appears that what we are doing now is effective- the old addage- "if it isn't broke, don't fix it". This whole thread has got me to thinking about things as a whole and where velocity increase really comes from.

I have come to somewhat of a conclusion that LT doesn't really do anything more than bullpen throwing except maybe add a crow-hop to the deal. But like I said before- the crow-hop is not the mechanism in LT that builds velocity. The mechanism is plain and simply "added effort". All things being equal, a person doing LT versus aperson doing bullpen should have the same exact mechanics from the point of when they start to **** their arms to release and follow through. This tells me then that it doesn't matter whether one throws 10 feet or 300 feet with added effort because in reality it comes down to repeatable mechanics and effort that increases velocity. A bullpen throw at max effort should leave the hand at the same velocity as LT throw at max effort if their release angle is the same.

As for the 90+ mph catchers, it was at a rookie league game and there were about a half dozen scouts with the radar guns on the cathers. I was in back of them watching and they clocked a guy mid 90's throwing down to second. Perhaps it was a converted pitcher to catcher, who knows. I do know that in rookie league pro-ball that guys get moved around wholesale quite often. Guys who they aquired as pitchers end up being third basemen or right fielders or even catchers or middle-infielders. Sometimes outfielders and catchers begin pitching.

Man, it really seems like it is hack on GBM on this thread. I would like to do this- List specifically why you think either LT or bullpen increases velocity. I will start (other have already listed some things)

Bullpen work increases velocity because..

1. You are training your body to throw at and beyond previous limits.
2. Repeating delivery added with repetition can only lead into added effort and arm strength.
3. Muscle memory is better obtained from repetition which translates into better mechanics, velocity and control.


Why I think LT doesn't achieve velocity gains as quickly or effectively...

1. Different release mechanics are involved
2. To many motions (crow-hop) disrupts the velocity chain of event making it more of an effort to speed up the ball with good release mechanics.
3. Do not throw enough with repetion style of work that trains good muscle memory conducive to pitching.

GBM this is another topic that amazes me. Every ML, MiLB and college player does LT and not just the pitchers. I hope for your son's sake he gets a real coach and stops listening to his Dad.

My understanding is that throwing from a mound puts more stress on the arm than throwing from flat ground. Our pitching coach made a definite distinction of when son should throw from the mound again after pitching and when he should just throw to loosen up or do LT.

Study from ASMI basically states that the deceleration forces on the arm are more throwing from the mound than from flat ground. Here is a response from someone with ASMI copied from a thread on their message board:

quote:

ASMI published a research study back in 1996 that compared baseball pitching from a mound to throwing from flat ground. The compressive forces on the shoulder and elbow during arm deceleration were lower in the long distance flat ground throws (180' and 120') than the both mound pitching and 60' flat throws. So distance, as well as the height and slope of the mound, accounts for some difference when the arm slows down.

Flat ground throwers had a shorter stride length and less shoulder external rotation at foot contact. Basically, the drop of the mound might give pitchers more time to stride forward, and more time to externally rotate the shoulder.

The mechanics (angles and forces) were similar for flat ground and mound throwing during the arm cocking and arm acceleration phases.

To sum up, until the arm slows down, there isn't a big difference in the shoulder and elbow forces when you compare flat ground and mound pitching.

Does this help? Here is the summary on our website:

http://www.asmi.org/asmiweb/re...-ground_throwing.htm

I think this is why most organizations and coaches do not train by doing too many bullpens.

Just more food for thought GBM.

The reason you do LT, flat ground work and bull pens is to work more muscles and strengthen a wider spectrum of shoulder and arm muscles. It all helps to ensure as much as you can that the arm and shoulder are fully developed.
GBMs logic is flawed.

I'll give you a great reason to long toss especially using the pull down phase to develop velocity. Throwing from the mound is FAR MORE stressful than throwing on flat ground. What does this mean? More throwing to develop more strength. My son was able to adjust to different mound heights by using the crow hop for the first few throws. I can almost see the long toss rhythm when he pitches. He currently averages 2 k's per inning in Varsity although he is predominantly a position player. He easily tosses upwards of 320 feet.

Anecdotally: Joel Zumaya was throwing in the low 90's and thought he was going to get cut. He started on the Jaeger Long Toss program and was very pleasantly surprised to see his velocity jump reaching 104 MPH.

Gingerbread,

There is always the possibility that you have something figured out that others haven’t. Guess I don’t see the need for being stubborn about it, though. If there’s a chance that any of us are correct, there’s also a chance any of us are wrong, including you.

The crow hop allows a player/pitcher to throw the ball harder. Most outfielders that also pitch throw the ball harder from the outfield than the mound. The added momentum (crow hop) allows their arm to throw the ball harder. This action in itself allows the arm to experience a higher velocity. That can then help transfer that added velocity to the mound. In addition it helps strengthen the arm with the use of the added momentum, meaning it is actually less dangerous than throwing as hard as possible (max effort) from a traditional pitchers delivery. I happen to believe it LT helps a player get used to using his body to help his arm. That is one of the secrets to improving as a pitcher and to staying healthy.

Regarding the mid 90s catcher throws to 2B. This is possible, I suppose. However, we have timed and used the radar gun on some 5,000 catchers. This includes some who are in or will soon be playing in the Big Leagues. Matt Wieters, Brian McCann, Jarrod Saltalamacchia, JR Towles, Jeff Clement, Jose Morales, Colt Morton, Giovani Soto, Bobby Wilson, Landon Powell, Jason Jaramillo, George Kottasas, Nick Hundley, etc., just to name a few. Also several other who became first round picks. In all this time with all those catchers, just this year we saw our first 90 mph reading on a throw to 2B. It came from a catcher who has also been up to 96 on the mound. Austin Maddox from Florida was the catcher.

You mentioned that you have seen catchers light up the radar gun throwing mid 90s down to second base. I believe you saw that, anything’s possible I guess, but if we ever see a catcher throwing mid 90s to 2B, we will put him on the mound where he should throw 100+. Some of the very best we have ever seen, including those above, throw low to mid 80s to 2B.

Here’s a few that I checked on in the database. This lists their top velocity.

Saltalamacchia – 84 mph
McCann – 82 mph
Soto – 83 mph
Clement – 83 mph
Jaramillo – 85 mph

Saltalamacchia and Clements also pitched at our events. Saltalamacchia would touch 90, Clement has been up to 92.

Anyway, if you can remember his name, I still would like to know who that catcher was that threw mid 90s down to 2B? Sorry for getting off the subject, I’m just very interested in the things I’ve never seen before. Heck, I get excited when I see a pitcher throwing mid 90s.

quote:

I think this is why most organizations and coaches do not train by doing too many bullpens.

Just more food for thought GBM

As far as pitching from the mound slope, like I mentioned before, the actual pitch counts of son of this throwing downhill including games is in the 100-125 range per week. That is not too much bullpen work, if we technically mean throwing "downhill".

quote:

Anyway, if you can remember his name, I still would like to know who that catcher was that threw mid 90s down to 2B? Sorry for getting off the subject, I’m just very interested in the things I’ve never seen before. Heck, I get excited when I see a pitcher throwing mid 90s.

I can't remember the name, I just remember making a mental note on catcher at the time. It was about 4 years ago in a game between the IF Chukars and I believe the Casper WY team (rookie pioneer league). I remeber it was big deal because the scouts actaully had their guns out and they seldom ever have their guns out on the catcher.

For what it is worth I found this article on the web and thought it was intersting. The author states that LT is more of a placebo effect. Don't know if he is wrong or right but it is interesting that he brings up some of my findings.

http://topvelocity.net/long-to...-the-placebo-effect/

PG, any idea what Yadier Molina throws from behind the plate?

GBN,
I personally am not going to argue about the LT. I actually agree with JD, a little bit of everything works well. There is no set rule.

Velocity should come naturally, and most of the time that is from growth and over all conditioning.

My only concern is what he does AFTER a game. There is not one person here who has supported that. You might want to check that out.

Pitchers rarely get converted to hitters or catchers in pro ball, it's the other way around.

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
For what it is worth I found this article on the web and thought it was intersting. The author states that LT is more of a placebo effect. Don't know if he is wrong or right but it is interesting that he brings up some of my findings.

http://topvelocity.net/long-to...-the-placebo-effect/

This is from who? A guy with a 7.01 ERA with the SurfDogs and more walks than strikeouts. No coaching experience, no claims (real or otherwise)regarding higher education pertinent to his writings. No higher level coaching, no degree in kinesiology or bio mechanics. His claim to fame is making Canseco hit a pop fly? I watched my son's 1st pitching coach strike Canseco out in 2006 at Bret Saberhagen Field in Calabasas. He backs Jaeger 110%.

From Jaegers site:
Alan Jaeger founded Jaeger Sports on the principle that developing the athlete's mental approach was the key to succeeding in game situations. As a former College Baseball player and coach Alan saw how even the most talented players were limited by their mental skills and approach. The result of several years of research and personal mental training was Alan's first book, Getting Focused, Staying Focused. This book serves as a driving force behind all of Jaeger Sports' training programs.

Alan's playing experience includes Los Angeles Pierce Junior College (1984-1985), California State University, at Northridge and the Wichita Bronco's of the Jayhawk League (1986). His college coaching experience includes four years (1990-1993) at Los Angeles Mission Junior College/College of the Canyons and seven years as an assistant coach/consultant for the Chatham A's of the prestigious Cape Cod League.

Since 1991 Alan, as a personal trainer and consultant, has been working with hundreds of amateur athletes, including over 70 professional baseball players. With a teachers training background in Yoga and practitioner of such Far Eastern Arts as Zen and Taoism, Alan has been able to merge the "mechanics" of the Western athlete with the "insight" of the Far Eastern mind, a unique combination of resources that has enabled him to teach athletes how to realize their potential in game situations.

quote:

Velocity should come naturally, and most of the time that is from growth and over all conditioning.

My only concern is what he does AFTER a game. There is not one person here who has supported that. You might want to check that out.

TPM,

I agree that velocity should come naturally. I am against the philosophy of actually telling my pitchers to try to "throw harder". It will come naturally on its own if all the other pieces like the conditioning and good mechanics.

What my son does after a game is just what he feels is natural to do. It must be noted that when he does pitch it is usually 3-4 innings with about 15 pitches per inning. He basically is just getting good and warmed up when he stops. Because we travel for games it is usually hours before he pitches again. But of other note is this-

We have all played in tournaments where they play back to back games or a break inbetween games on the same day. How often does a pitcher who pitches in game one also pitch some in game two? Or- how about pitching on the first day and then come back the next morning in game three and pitch again? I am sure there isn't one person in here who has not seen or been a part of that scenerio. So, in reality, pitching back to back (a few innings in the first game and a few innings the second game) is no different than my son coming home and throwing.

quote:

Originally posted by MTS:

This is from who? A guy with a 7.01 ERA with the SurfDogs and more walks than strikeouts. No coaching experience, no claims (real or otherwise)regarding higher education pertinent to his writings. No higher level coaching, no degree in kinesiology or bio mechanics. His claim to fame is making Canseco hit a pop fly? I watched my son's 1st pitching coach strike Canseco out in 2006 at Bret Saberhagen Field in Calabasas. He backs Jaeger 110%.

In my defense. I did have a 7.01 ERA but I also had the most appearances on the team. I had to pitch on two days rest most of the time because all of our pitchers went on the DL at some point in the season. I was the only pitcher not to get hurt. This was also my first season after sitting out of the game for over four years due to having reconstructive shoulder surgery where three different well respected Doctors told me I would never pitch again. I hit 94mph in my 12th appearance in San Diego and threw 6 perfect innings against Chico the top team in the league. I also played a season in Europe Professionally for the Mortsel Stars competing in the European Championship. I hung it up because I was 29 years old and the Twins and Blue Jays said they didn't like my age or my history of injury. Everything I write about on www.TopVelocity.net is everything I used to overcome a career ending rotator cuff tear. I have trained with the Olympic Lifting Coach Gayle Hatch who opened my eyes to the Bigger, Stronger, Faster style of training a superior athlete. I applied this to pitching and it is the only reason I was able to pitch again after I was told I would not even be able to throw close to the velocity I threw before the tear.

I have a lot more experience and credentials than Alan Yeager. My experience has taught me that velocity mainly comes from the body and not the arm in a 90+ mph fastball. The arm only guides the pitch. The reason I tore my cuff was because I mainly used my arm to generate as much velocity as it could handle.

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:

quote:

Velocity should come naturally, and most of the time that is from growth and over all conditioning.

My only concern is what he does AFTER a game. There is not one person here who has supported that. You might want to check that out.

TPM,

I agree that velocity should come naturally. I am against the philosophy of actually telling my pitchers to try to "throw harder". It will come naturally on its own if all the other pieces like the conditioning and good mechanics.

What my son does after a game is just what he feels is natural to do. It must be noted that when he does pitch it is usually 3-4 innings with about 15 pitches per inning. He basically is just getting good and warmed up when he stops. Because we travel for games it is usually hours before he pitches again. But of other note is this-

We have all played in tournaments where they play back to back games or a break inbetween games on the same day. How often does a pitcher who pitches in game one also pitch some in game two? Or- how about pitching on the first day and then come back the next morning in game three and pitch again? I am sure there isn't one person in here who has not seen or been a part of that scenerio. So, in reality, pitching back to back (a few innings in the first game and a few innings the second game) is no different than my son coming home and throwing.

Just because people do that doesn't make it right! You really don't get it. Good luck to your son's arm.

quote:

Originally posted by TopVelocity.net:

quote:

Originally posted by MTS:

This is from who? A guy with a 7.01 ERA with the SurfDogs and more walks than strikeouts. No coaching experience, no claims (real or otherwise)regarding higher education pertinent to his writings. No higher level coaching, no degree in kinesiology or bio mechanics. His claim to fame is making Canseco hit a pop fly? I watched my son's 1st pitching coach strike Canseco out in 2006 at Bret Saberhagen Field in Calabasas. He backs Jaeger 110%.

In my defense. I did have a 7.01 ERA but I also had the most appearances on the team. I had to pitch on two days rest most of the time because all of our pitchers went on the DL at some point in the season. I was the only pitcher not to get hurt. This was also my first season after sitting out of the game for over four years due to having reconstructive shoulder surgery where three different well respected Doctors told me I would never pitch again. I hit 94mph in my 12th appearance in San Diego and threw 6 perfect innings against Chico the top team in the league. I also played a season in Europe Professionally for the Mortsel Stars competing in the European Championship. I hung it up because I was 29 years old and the Twins and Blue Jays said they didn't like my age or my history of injury. Everything I write about on www.TopVelocity.net is everything I used to overcome a career ending rotator cuff tear. I have trained with the Olympic Lifting Coach Gayle Hatch who opened my eyes to the Bigger, Stronger, Faster style of training a superior athlete. I applied this to pitching and it is the only reason I was able to pitch again after I was told I would not even be able to throw close to the velocity I threw before the tear.

I have a lot more experience and credentials than Alan Yeager. My experience has taught me that velocity mainly comes from the body and not the arm in a 90+ mph fastball. The arm only guides the pitch. The reason I tore my cuff was because I mainly used my arm to generate as much velocity as it could handle.

Big mistake running down a competitor- especially when you know nothing about him.

quote:

Originally posted by TopVelocity.net:

quote:

Originally posted by MTS:

This is from who? A guy with a 7.01 ERA with the SurfDogs and more walks than strikeouts. No coaching experience, no claims (real or otherwise)regarding higher education pertinent to his writings. No higher level coaching, no degree in kinesiology or bio mechanics. His claim to fame is making Canseco hit a pop fly? I watched my son's 1st pitching coach strike Canseco out in 2006 at Bret Saberhagen Field in Calabasas. He backs Jaeger 110%.

In my defense. I did have a 7.01 ERA but I also had the most appearances on the team. I had to pitch on two days rest most of the time because all of our pitchers went on the DL at some point in the season. I was the only pitcher not to get hurt. This was also my first season after sitting out of the game for over four years due to having reconstructive shoulder surgery where three different well respected Doctors told me I would never pitch again. I hit 94mph in my 12th appearance in San Diego and threw 6 perfect innings against Chico the top team in the league. I also played a season in Europe Professionally for the Mortsel Stars competing in the European Championship. I hung it up because I was 29 years old and the Twins and Blue Jays said they didn't like my age or my history of injury. Everything I write about on www.TopVelocity.net is everything I used to overcome a career ending rotator cuff tear. I have trained with the Olympic Lifting Coach Gayle Hatch who opened my eyes to the Bigger, Stronger, Faster style of training a superior athlete. I applied this to pitching and it is the only reason I was able to pitch again after I was told I would not even be able to throw close to the velocity I threw before the tear.

I have a lot more experience and credentials than Alan Yeager. My experience has taught me that velocity mainly comes from the body and not the arm in a 90+ mph fastball. The arm only guides the pitch. The reason I tore my cuff was because I mainly used my arm to generate as much velocity as it could handle.

Where did you coach? Jaeger coached 2 CA JC's and spent 7 years as an assistant coach/consultant for the Chatham A's in the Cape Cod League. He has worked with and trained Barry Zito, Dan Haren, Joel Zumaya and many more names that are current pros. The list of colleges that follow his program includes UC Irvine, CA Fullerton, Long Beach State, UCLA, U of San Diego, UC Santa Barbara. Who did you coach? You are more qualified? I believe you are qualified with regard to you and your arm.

What do you think Jaeger teaches? Contrary to your Placebo Theory on Long Toss, Jaeger emphasizes total arm care and especially the use of the legs and hips to throw. He begins with his philosophy of warming up to throw, don't throw to warm up. He trains all of his throwers, pitchers, infielders, catchers to warm up including a run, arm circles and the Jobes Exercises. I'm sure you know Dr Jobe. This goes on for at least 10 minutes before anyone starts throwing. Here is an outline of his Long Toss routine direct from his site. Take a look at the number of pros that have worked with him. I've been to his camps and I have seen the results.

http://www.jaegersports.com/arm_strength.php

quote:

Originally posted by ncball:

Big mistake running down a competitor- especially when you know nothing about him.

He still hasn't offered any qualifications to support his claim that Long Toss is only a placebo. Remember where he earned that ERA. It wasn't the MLB and it wasn't AAA ball. He has coached who? Where? He has not mentioned any degrees in sports training or medicine. It is apparent that he has no knowledge of Jaeger's program.

I checked Top Velocity's site. He thinks its 120 feet from home to second. It's a little closer to 130 feet; to be a little more accurate approximately 127.28 feet.

If TopVelocity did his long toss just throwing and didn't do the pull down phase, he would be correct in that he did not teach his arm use the power that was there for him to use.

In one of his clips on the home page he talks with his partner about how parents teach their kids to arm throw. I've been teaching kids to use the legs and hips to make their throws. I made my 9 year old do 5 push ups for not using his legs to help his throws. My 16 year old was taught this when he started T-ball 12 years ago.

quote:

I am sure there isn't one person in here who has not seen or been a part of that scenerio. So, in reality, pitching back to back (a few innings in the first game and a few innings the second game) is no different than my son coming home and throwing.

I'll tell you this gbm, it is irresponsible for travel coaches to use up kids like that and to use that as justification to allow your son to do it is weak soup.
I'd like for you to produce a single professional coach (Gets a paycheck coaching) who thinks this is anything but folly..If you'd like I'll be happy to provide you with some coaches who coach at the college level and some ex-mlb players who would also back up my assertions, if they don't just hang up on you for abusing your kid. Heck show me anywhere, anyplace where this behavior is recommended. They (Irresponsible travel teams, who obviously can't recruit) do it but they aren't proud enough to put it down in any media and defend it.

gingerbread,

You said it seemed like hack on gbm on this board.

You have been given opinions from many with more baseball and coaching experience than yourself and probably anyone you know. Your choice is to ignore their recommendations and that is your privilege.

You will find that your future posts will be well recieved if asked with an open mind versus a defensive attitude. You think that mound work is sufficient and the better method to build velocity; that is your decision.

One question...do you believe you and your son are the first to try this approach and not do LT?

I will defend myself here. I find nothing strange about kids, especially at the pre-hs level to play in tournaments and pitch a few innings in one game and come back and pitch a few in the next. For those of you advocating this is wrong, just remember when your kid was at that age where they played summer tournaments. After your kid pitched did he retire to the bench for the remaining day in an ice pack and not play at all as you all seem to be advocating? Gosh, you would have everybody and their dog concerned about the pitcher's health if that was the case-..."Gee coach, did he hurt his arm, he only pitched in three innings and made quick work of them at that!"

Heck, any pitcher that had to shut his arm down for the day after just 3 innings would be in very bad health. I seriously doubt that anyone in here who's son played summer tournaments at the pre-hs level were limited to just one pitching appearance in a two day period!

quote:

One question...do you believe you and your son are the first to try this approach and not do LT?

No absolutely not. Countless others before me have been using this approach for eons. Bob Feller is one who comes to mind. Didn't he practice his throwing inside a barn at night after farm chores? Didn't he also not have one of the most electric arms in the business? I believe he was once clocked with an army device throwing at 98 mph at the plate! That would mean that he was throwing out of the hand at like 103-105!! And all that from training inside a barn....after farm chores at night!!!

quote:

Heck, any pitcher that had to shut his arm down for the day after just 3 innings would be in very bad health. I seriously doubt that anyone in here who's son played summer tournaments at the pre-hs level were limited to just one pitching appearance in a two day period!

Yah thats it minimalize it, like that is all that happens Coaches who do sheepishly admit to doing the things they irresponsibly do in tourneys, in my experience do so in emergency situations not as a matter of course with no supervision as you admit to doing.
Now Bob Feller is brought up..like he isn't the exception to every rule, name another 17 yr old mlb pitcher in the modern era. It is interesting the lengths you will go to to justify this behavior. Well I will just have to accept that your son is the revisit of Bob and let it go at that. I hope you have great insurance. Good luck to you both.

gingerbread,

You don't seriously believe that the only throwing Feller did as a kid was just done in a barn, do you?

If so, you might want to do some research on the man, along with other players from that era.

Let me honestly ask the board this-

Is it bad for a coach to limit their kids to throwing 3-4 innings a game and a max of 7-8 in a week?

Is it bad for a coach to allow a pitcher who has just pitched 3 innings to then move over to short-stop in a game?

Is it bad for a coach to let kids throw from the mound every other day limiting their counts to what they would see on gameday (40-50 pitches)?

Is it bad for a coach to let his ace pitch 3 innings in a game and come back in the second game of a double-header to close it out in the last inning?

Is it bad for a coach to let a pitcher throw hours after they threw 3 innings in a game and left with no arm soreness?

If you answere yes, then I guess I am a bad coach and I can live with that- I will be that bad coach who never lets his pitchers finish a whole game, or allow them to throw through pain, or monitor their pitch counts, or keep a strict track of their bullpen counts and control and conditioning. Ya I guess I will be that bad coach. If that is the standard, then every other coach out there must be absolutely horrible!

In a word that sounds like rec ball coach. You are stifling the development of your pitchers if they have any aspirations to play serious ball.
You would have a problem attracting god pitchers.

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
I will defend myself here. I find nothing strange about kids, especially at the pre-hs level to play in tournaments and pitch a few innings in one game and come back and pitch a few in the next. For those of you advocating this is wrong, just remember when your kid was at that age where they played summer tournaments. After your kid pitched did he retire to the bench for the remaining day in an ice pack and not play at all as you all seem to be advocating? Gosh, you would have everybody and their dog concerned about the pitcher's health if that was the case-..."Gee coach, did he hurt his arm, he only pitched in three innings and made quick work of them at that!"

Heck, any pitcher that had to shut his arm down for the day after just 3 innings would be in very bad health. I seriously doubt that anyone in here who's son played summer tournaments at the pre-hs level were limited to just one pitching appearance in a two day period!

Wrong. My 9 year old is 4'11" 105 lbs and very likely throws harder than your son. I don't let him pitch in games yet.

My other son plays high school varsity and gets minimum 2 days between outings and he is a closer. He gets out of innings with as few as 6 pitches. He has had three games where he finished the side in about 1 to 1-1/2 minutes. I doubt your 10U has that kind of control. We usually have 3 to 5 games a week. During an Easter Tournament we had 4 games in 3 days. When he played on a 14U club team his coach/manager who did play D-1 and professional ball (Cardinals), has a degree in kinesiology, had shoulder surgery, caught the pitcher that K'd Canseco in 2006 and swears by Jaeger, made sure that he carried a lot of pitchers and would not allow a pitcher to pitch back to back games or next day with the exception of the closer. The coach would not use the closer the same day, but he would the next day if the closer threw less than 25 pitches. Our league prohibits 10U pitchers from throwing more than 3 innings a game and must waited 48 hours before they can pitch again.

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
Let me honestly ask the board this-

Is it bad for a coach to limit their kids to throwing 3-4 innings a game and a max of 7-8 in a week?

Is it bad for a coach to allow a pitcher who has just pitched 3 innings to then move over to short-stop in a game?

Is it bad for a coach to let kids throw from the mound every other day limiting their counts to what they would see on gameday (40-50 pitches)?

Is it bad for a coach to let his ace pitch 3 innings in a game and come back in the second game of a double-header to close it out in the last inning?

Is it bad for a coach to let a pitcher throw hours after they threw 3 innings in a game and left with no arm soreness?

If you answere yes, then I guess I am a bad coach and I can live with that- I will be that bad coach who never lets his pitchers finish a whole game, or allow them to throw through pain, or monitor their pitch counts, or keep a strict track of their bullpen counts and control and conditioning. Ya I guess I will be that bad coach. If that is the standard, then every other coach out there must be absolutely horrible!

1. Yes

2. Maybe, depends how many pitches he threw.

3. Yes

4. Yes

It won't be fun when (not if) your son damages his growth plates. I've seen several 10U kids that everyone talked about being the next great future star and were over pitched. I was quietly thankful when during a couple of years the all star teams didn't pitch my son. One year he was their best pitcher, but didn't see any innings thanks to daddy ball. The following year he was their 3rd best pitcher, again daddy ball kept him off the mound. Unfortunately the #1 pitcher who was overused is no longer throwing and may be out of baseball altogether. We passed on my son's last year of all stars opting for high school ball instead.

quote:

Is it bad for a coach to limit their kids to throwing 3-4 innings a game and a max of 7-8 in a week? Probably OK, but limits can change depending on many things.

Is it bad for a coach to allow a pitcher who has just pitched 3 innings to then move over to short-stop in a game? Yes, the only reason I can think of for doing this is because of being too important to win a "youth level" game.

Is it bad for a coach to let kids throw from the mound every other day limiting their counts to what they would see on gameday (40-50 pitches)? Once again this depends on many other factors.

Is it bad for a coach to let his ace pitch 3 innings in a game and come back in the second game of a double-header to close it out in the last inning? Yes, this is very dangerous and once again the only reason for it would be a coach wanting to win a "youth level" game..

Is it bad for a coach to let a pitcher throw hours after they threw 3 innings in a game and left with no arm soreness? Yes, once the arm cools down it needs time to recover.

If you answere yes, then I guess I am a bad coach and I can live with that- I will be that bad coach who never lets his pitchers finish a whole game, (that sounds more like a good coach) or allow them to throw through pain, or monitor their pitch counts, or keep a strict track of their bullpen counts and control and conditioning. (That also sounds like a good coach) Ya I guess I will be that bad coach. If that is the standard, then every other coach out there must be absolutely horrible!