Long Toss , versus Bullpen and building velocity.

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In a word that sounds like rec ball coach. You are stifling the development of your pitchers if they have any aspirations to play serious ball.
You would have a problem attracting god pitchers.

What? We have 4 main pitchers on our team and we only play on the weekends and on occasion- one game during the week. I tend to think our pitchers are some of the best talented pitchers in their respective area- they want to be on the team because of the dedication the coaches have and not overusing them.

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Wrong. My 9 year old is 4'11" 105 lbs and very likely throws harder than your son. I don't let him pitch in games yet.

How do you compare a 9 year old with a 13 year old? Did I miss something?

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Is it bad for a coach to limit their kids to throwing 3-4 innings a game and a max of 7-8 in a week?

Is it bad for a coach to allow a pitcher who has just pitched 3 innings to then move over to short-stop in a game?

Is it bad for a coach to let kids throw from the mound every other day limiting their counts to what they would see on gameday (40-50 pitches)?

Is it bad for a coach to let his ace pitch 3 innings in a game and come back in the second game of a double-header to close it out in the last inning?

Is it bad for a coach to let a pitcher throw hours after they threw 3 innings in a game and left with no arm soreness?

If you answere yes, then I guess I am a bad coach and I can live with that- I will be that bad coach who never lets his pitchers finish a whole game, or allow them to throw through pain, or monitor their pitch counts, or keep a strict track of their bullpen counts and control and conditioning. Ya I guess I will be that bad coach. If that is the standard, then every other coach out there must be absolutely horrible!

Man!
What a huge leap, we go from throwing unsupervised after cool down (Where the majority of the board thinks it inadvisable) to "I'm a terrible coach".
You got opinions that differed from yours and all your rationalizations, oh well, it looks like you think yourself a pretty good coach. I won't judge, I can't judge nor would I try. The proof will be in the pudding, whether you can get and keep healthy and happy, quality kids and parents while maintaining your own sons health..NOT whether I disagree with your personal conditioning philosophey.
You apparently reject the other posters or my opinions..ok, my sleep will not be troubled tonight.
PG as usual was concise and to the point and my answer to your queries is pretty much the same as his.

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Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:

How often does a pitcher who pitches in game one also pitch some in game two?

Son never did that and would never play for a coach that did. Ever.

Let's not confuse 13-14 year old players with grown college or pro athletes that have been in this scenerio, they are trained and coached by paid professionals.

Read what PG posted.

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What a huge leap, we go from throwing unsupervised after cool down

I'm sorry but I just do not see a problem of son wanting to throw a little bit after a game when his arm is already feeling good because he never even came close to his max pitch count in the game.

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I'm sorry but I just do not see a problem of son wanting to throw a little bit after a game when his arm is already feeling good because he never even came close to his max pitch count in the game.

I get it dude..why be so daggone defensive?
I stated quite simply that the entirety of experts (D-1 JUCO and ex major leaguers) that I know completely disagree..not to mention AMSI. We both have to live with that. I am fully satisfied that your mind won't change until proven wrong..(it is too bad the getting proven wrong has to do with your boys arm health..I can't help that either) mine is made up also.

Gingerbread,

If he really needs to throw more, then he should do it right away. That would be better than waiting a few hours.

I share this opinion with many others... To some degree or another when a pitcher is done pitching he has an arm injury. While this injury may not be anything at all to be concerned about, it requires a certain amount of recovery time to "heal" completely. The more pitches thrown, the more the arm is "injured", the more time it takes to recover. I believe it's this recovery period of time that a pitchers arm is actually getting stronger, provided the arm completes it's healing (recovery) cycle. (Similiar to what happens with weight lifters gaining strength) Throwing again before the arm is fully recovered can be dangerous. I can give you specific incidents where this has happened. One incident that I'm very close to that happened in the Major Leagues.

It appears that you are not wanting to listen. That is Ok with me. But do yourself and your son a favor and at least consider that it is possible you could be going about this wrong. I think people here are only trying to help. We could all be wrong. I've been wrong a lot and also I'm guessing I've been around much longer than you have. Our sons are more important than being stubborn and winning an argument.

There's always a chance that you are correct, but it kind of seems like your using your son as some kind of guinea pig just to prove it. Search elsewhere for answers. I can put you in touch with a very highly thought of former MLB pitching coach, if that will help. Hopefully your not one of those guys who think they don't know anything.

For those who have not figured it out yet.

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Gingerbread,

If he really needs to throw more, then he should do it right away. That would be better than waiting a few hours.

I share this opinion with many others... To some degree or another when a pitcher is done pitching he has an arm injury. While this injury may not be anything at all to be concerned about, it requires a certain amount of recovery time to "heal" completely. The more pitches thrown, the more the arm is "injured", the more time it takes to recover. I believe it's this recovery period of time that a pitchers arm is actually getting stronger, provided the arm completes it's healing (recovery) cycle. (Similiar to what happens with weight lifters gaining strength) Throwing again before the arm is fully recovered can be dangerous. I can give you specific incidents where this has happened. One incident that I'm very close to that happened in the Major Leagues.

It appears that you are not wanting to listen. That is Ok with me. But do yourself and your son a favor and at least consider that it is possible you could be going about this wrong. I think people here are only trying to help. We could all be wrong. I've been wrong a lot and also I'm guessing I've been around much longer than you have. Our sons are more important than being stubborn and winning an argument.

There's always a chance that you are correct, but it kind of seems like your using your son as some kind of guinea pig just to prove it. Search elsewhere for answers. I can put you in touch with a very highly thought of former MLB pitching coach, if that will help. Hopefully your not one of those guys who think they don't know anything.

I don't mean to sound defensive. I don't use son as a science project either. You along with others have brought up some real good points and info. I agree with you fully on allowing pitchers recovery time when they do get fatigued. I am not one who condones pitching through pain. The last travel team my kid was on believed in pitching through pain. I told them to train more pitchers and that my son wouldn't be back.

My point (and I thought it was kind of irrelevent to the thread, but maybe I will start a new one on it) was that if kids arm is healthy and they are not overused then I see no point in not allowing them to "throw" if they want to, especially at the age that my son is at.

Ya, I can totally understand that things change as they move up the ladder into HS and beyond, but so does their velocity and effort! Heck, if my kid just pitched a complete game throwing many pitches at 90+ mph, then of coarse I would want him to get some rest and recover before he picked up a baseball again. But I mean we are talking about apples and oranges here. We are talking about playing in games where everyone on the team bats and there are only 9-12 players on the team and when a pitcher is replaced he goes to first base instead of the bench. It's not as if my 13 year old is going on 23 and playing in the minor leagues. I realize things change- that they get bigger and stronger and exert more effort and get truely fatigued at the older ages.

Your son has open growth plates that are weaker than his tendons. He is more susceptible to injury than older kids whose growth plates have closed. That is why flat ground throwing is more important and beneficial than bullpens which are more stressful to his arm.

I fear the G-Man will only realize his ignorance when he is sitting with his son in the surgical recovery room in a few years. I really feel sorry for his kid and any kids under his influence. Coaches and dads who have the combination of ignorance AND arrogance can be very dangerous for young developing kids who love to play baseball.

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I fear the G-Man will only realize his ignorance when he is sitting with his son in the surgical recovery room in a few years. I really feel sorry for his kid and any kids under his influence. Coaches and dads who have the combination of ignorance AND arrogance can be very dangerous for young developing kids who love to play baseball.

You have no idea what you are saying. Did you even bother to read everything i have posted? Let me recap, maybe you will be singing to a different tune-


Son pitches in 1-2 games per week (weekends) and sometimes 1 game mid-week and throws bullpens every other day at practice when there aren't no games. Total pitch count including bullpen practices is around 125 per week. He throws on off days (plays basic catch and some infielding drills) along with batting practice. Sometimes after pitching when his pitch counts are low he comes home and throws for a while (not at max velocity). At no time does son's arm hurt.

He plays roughly 6 months out of the year with a break inbetween two seasons. The other 6 months he plays basketball and trains physically to get stronger and faster.


So, maybe you could explain to me how this approach will put son in surgery?

I read the entire thread G-man. Your son is 13 right? You have no idea the sort of damage that has most likely ALREADY been caused to the growth plates in your son's elbow and shoulder. I would imagine they are most likely already hardened and will grow no more. So when your son is 18 he will have the physical maturity in his shoulder and elbow of a 12 or 13 year old boy. I suggest you take him to an orthopedic doctor and have an MRI done. Let a professional take a look and and then you might realize just how serious your jaunt down ignorance lane with your 13 year old son really was.

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Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:

Sometimes after pitching when his pitch counts are low he comes home and throws for a while (not at max velocity). At no time does son's arm hurt.

So, maybe you could explain to me how this approach will put son in surgery?

I think that sentence alone kind of sums up the explanation.

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I read the entire thread G-man. Your son is 13 right? You have no idea the sort of damage that has most likely ALREADY been caused to the growth plates in your son's elbow and shoulder. I would imagine they are most likely already hardened and will grow no more. So when your son is 18 he will have the physical maturity in his shoulder and elbow of a 12 or 13 year old boy. I suggest you take him to an orthopedic doctor and have an MRI done. Let a professional take a look and and then you might realize just how serious your jaunt down ignorance lane with your 13 year old son really was.

So you are saying that my son is totally screwed heh? And all because I let him throw 125 pitches a week. If this is the case then i would suspect that 90% of mlb pitchers also suffer from having 12-13 year old types of joints.

Exactly what part of my sons throwing routine is causing all of his screwed up issues?

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I think that sentence alone kind of sums up the explanation.

You just made no sense whatsoever.

G-Man I didn't say your kid was screwed up. What I am trying to say is you are pursuing a course of action and YOU are ignorant to the risks involved. Everything I have read that you wrote goes something like this, "I don't THINK". Well the problem is you're thoughts are irrelevant when you have not educated yourself on the subject. I am not saying I am right but the fact is throwing and arm injuries are more and more prevalent these days at younger and younger ages. Often times kids and dads engage in activities that are harmful and IF the parent had any knowledge of the risks involved I believe they would find a better way. Heck I have read stuff from people who absolutely believe that anyone under the age of 17 should NEVER pitch and should throw a baseball no more than a few months out of the year. All I am trying to say is, for the sake of your son, I would like to see YOU educate yourself through reputable sources and then make an informed decision rather than guessing and assuming. Your son may be the next Nolan Ryan, who knows, but if he injures his growth plates as a youth his baseball career is going to come to a sudden halt and you both will be left wondering why!

Nolan Ryan was just a shade more than a .500 pitcher---outside of his velocity and the no hitters he was nothing spectacular--I would rather have Gibson or Seaver on my staff---I cannot undertsand why everyone looks at Ryan as a model for pitchers--look at his stats--isnt he the all time base on balls leader?

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G-Man I didn't say your kid was screwed up. What I am trying to say is you are pursuing a course of action and YOU are ignorant to the risks involved. Everything I have read that you wrote goes something like this, "I don't THINK". Well the problem is you're thoughts are irrelevant when you have not educated yourself on the subject. I am not saying I am right but the fact is throwing and arm injuries are more and more prevalent these days at younger and younger ages. Often times kids and dads engage in activities that are harmful and IF the parent had any knowledge of the risks involved I believe they would find a better way. Heck I have read stuff from people who absolutely believe that anyone under the age of 17 should NEVER pitch and should throw a baseball no more than a few months out of the year. All I am trying to say is, for the sake of your son, I would like to see YOU educate yourself through reputable sources and then make an informed decision rather than guessing and assuming. Your son may be the next Nolan Ryan, who knows, but if he injures his growth plates as a youth his baseball career is going to come to a sudden halt and you both will be left wondering why!

I feel I am getting educated. Son just plainly doesn't pitch as much as or more than anyone his age.

Getting back to the original post, (somehow this got derailed into a pitch count issue?) I still honestly believe that throwing shorter distances in quicker repetiotions is better on the arm. LT has been proven to help with velocity, I believe that much, I just do not see how it is more beneficial to a pitcher over a good bullpen.

How do your arrive at your beliefs?

Very well calculated indeed!

GBM
IMO the main purpose of LT for a pitcher is building stamina. When a pitcher goes out and LT until his arm feels dead makes it so that in a game his arm will not tire at all. In the offseason I do this twice a week and in the game my arm doesnt tire out until I hit around the 110 pitch mark (rarely do I reach that mark though). I also believe that LT strengthens the arm considerably. But moreso I think it is vital to building enough stamina. It also forces the pitcher to use his whole body when he's trying to throw the ball as far as he can.

LT allows a kid to go out and just throw and let his arm and body be the guide as to how much throwing he or she does and the distances he or she throws. I do a LT program with my whole team in the fall and at the beginning of every spring. In the fall we do it religiously for about 2 months and we go 3 times week. We start at, after a good warm up which includes static stretching and lots of dynamic movements, 45 feet and the kids move out at 15 foot intervals as THEY want to. I have a couple of kids who got to as far as 175 feet last fall when we first moved from 10U ball to 11U ball. They then work back and we try to throw straight and hard with no arc to the throw as we move back in. We usually spend an hour to an hour and a half doing this. The improvements I have seen on my team have been very pleasing to me. Sure they have grown and gotten stronger but I can SEE the benefits of the LT. We do a shortened version out to 90 feet every practice.

Our research proves...and what we teach our MLB/amateur clients is that long toss INTEGRATED with the other PROPER program drills strengthen the arm/shoulder, increase power and velocity. Our long toss program was tested in the lab with Dr. James Andrews and there are very specific steps to take to execute this properly....distances based on age, etc.

Hi my name is alaestia, I wanted to tell you guys that im doing a program that increases velocity, I my self have gained 5 mph from my right side and 7 mph from my left so far during this 3 months ( I throw with both arms). And I know for sure how many miles because I have a jugs radar gun and I checked the speed every time I was throwing and I was seeing the progress on my speed within every session.
Im 21 years old so it cant be product of growing and development due to the reason that I already stopped growing and getting stronger and faster due to natural causes, so it has to be the way im training.plus no kid will gain 5 mph in 3 months just by growing.

I would like other people to try what im working on to see if they can get the same results as me, who knows some people will get worse, some people the same one but some people might get better results, who knows that’s why im looking for people that have tried many things to increase the velocity of his fastball and hasn’t worked.

You don’t need any special supplement like protein creatine, carbohydrets nothing you just need natural food and proper rest plus the routine. The only thing that you need is to liten to me, try it for 4 weeks it should give you a result.

For those who wonder what the routine is about ill tell you a little bit, the routine consists in 3 workouts per week. one day of weight room, another day of pitching and some explosive exercises and the third and last day of the week basically another day of pitching, or you can pitch in a game which is what I recommend.
Anyway guys please feel free to e-mail me I don’t want anything from you I want you to succed and increase those extra miles that you need to jump to a higher level, don’t feel compromise im not asking for money or anything like that.
My e-mail is rutina1dia@hotmail.com

I prefer this guy's 6 week program.....