Skip to main content

105 replies

Long Toss , versus Bullpen and building velocity.

GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
I know this has been hashed out a thousand times but....

I hear that LT is something every baseball player should be working on, especially pitchers. I have heard that on off days, pitcher should LT to stay healthy. The part I can't figure out for the life of me is this- What specifically does LT do that is somehow better than pitching a session off the ol bump?

I can see if one was an outfielder or and needed to work on the ol crow-hop and that would be better suited to an outfielder, but as for a pitcher I just do not get it. It would seem to me, that LT is for the most part to "strengthen the arm" (increase velocity). But as far as pitching goes, it seems to me that pitching off the bump would do a better job of this. Or even throwing short distances in multiple repetitions would achieve better results for a pitcher.

My own son has not done a true LT drill ever! I guess I am just not sold on it. Instead he has substituted other drills in it's place that I think are way more effective. One drill he does is to stand about 40 feet in front of our back stairs (concrete) squared up and throw as fast as he can in repetitions until he gets winded. He will then pitch like he is in the stretch and do the same thing. He does these drills on his off days and sometimes even after games he throws in. I asked him why he did these drills and who showed him and his reply was something to the effect of "I am working on the snap part of my throw" something he believes is most vital to arm strength and velocity gains.

So my quest is-

Why do so many people subscribe to LT when to me as an observer, it seems way more logical to do repetitive work from distances closer and more accurate to them playing their position, especially for pitching?

To me, LT is a good drill for outfielders and not for pitchers. Let pitchers work off the mound or even flat ground at shorter distances if they are going to throw.
Original Post

Replies sorted oldest to newest

B bakstop007100+ posts
up until this spring ive done long toss ONCE and i absolutely hated it, but for some odd reason i threw harder after i LT than i ever had before, coincidence? so ive been researching ideas about LT like crazy and ive theres only a couple logical reasons.
1) break down mental barriers to just throw the ball as far and as hard as possible (eh sounds like it could be for the birds but who knows)
**** 2 is the part that i definitely agree with
2) because you let go of the ball at a higher point your arm has greater time for deceleration, reducing the wear and tear on the arm. (my arm use to occasionally get slightly sore the nextday after throwing like your son, it hasnt yet with LT, granted when im finished with LT i do the hard throws on a line for a few minutes)
3) your shoulder capsule is quite flexible and by working it at a different angle you can help to promote flexibility and possibly focus the strengthing other parts of the RC that are less used it conventional throwing

im not 100% from my leg injury yet so i have no idea if my velocity will improve or not, in about a months time i can vouch for whether or not it made anything better for me
CADadCADad5,000+ posts
Ginger,
Long toss, if done on an arc, allows the thrower to gradually work out toward full distance/velocity because when you are throwing on an arc you are only throwing hard enough to throw a certain distance and no harder. That makes it a little safer than trying to gradually increase velocity in the bullpen.

Long toss also provides feedback in terms of distance thrown as to how hard a thrower is throwing and allows the thrower to put full effort into the throwing without the constraints of trying to throw a strike.

Long toss also makes it that little bit easier to get the arm moving just a little bit faster because for some people they can transfer more momentum into the throw with long toss than they can off the mound. Sometimes that can result in higher velocities off the mound.

I'm an advocate of long toss but I'll also be the first to admit that my son's velocity has increased just as much throwing regular pens with a bit of throwing for velocity at the end as it has throwing long toss. Generally speaking the combination of trying to throw hard and added strength/maturity is what results in velocity increases and the way one gets their throwing in is a matter of choice. If a pitcher needs work on their control they'll probably be better off throwing more pens and less long toss. If a pitcher has good control it may be a bit safer to do a bit more long toss and fewer pens.

There haven't been any definitive studies of the effects of long toss on velocity as far as I know so this is all speculation based on personal experience.
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
I see. It would seems to make sense that throwing certain distances gradually reduces the stress on the arm and how they build up to their full velocity while throwing. When my son does bullpen I always stress follow through when he is warming up to throw. Velocity increase comes from putting extra effort into throwing, so I guess I can see how LT would achieve that just as a good Bullpen could.

In the past my son has had coaches that would do their own version of long toss, but they never did it correctly. They would always start them out close and gradually move them further apart but never stress throwing harder as they moved further apart, the throws would remain at a constant velocity and the arcs would just get bigger and bigger. Once they were further apart the coaches would never bring them gradually back together stressing the importance of throwing harder as they did. From that experience, I never bought into LT, mostly because I never saw it have any benefit on my son. Perhaps I should try a true LT practice with my son this year and see.
BOFBOF10,000+ posts
LT is like other developmental exercises - it is not exactly what you do as a pitcher.(although it is throwing) Like others have pointed out it:

1. It helps build arm strength with less wear and tear on the decelerators and can and should be done every day.

2. It can be used to effectively see how you are doing day-to-day, week-to-week. (distance) It also gives the player a way to get feedback and to learn how to really "throw hard" with direct feedback.

3. It becomes part of the warm up process that is manageable. (slowly moving out in distance) It becomes part of the routine where you can also use the time to get mentally prepared for pitching. (or playing)

4. It gives the position player the same system for building arm strength as a pitcher and can be implemented team wide. Coaches who know the system can also monitor what is going with the whole team by just glancing over and following their progress.

5. It also gives the player the opportunity to work on release points prior to hitting the mound. Done properly this is reinforced every time you throw not just during bullpens.

6. If done consistently with arm circles and bands it gives the player a healthy approach to getting ready for a game/practice that can be repeated every time. It should become part of a players DNA as far as loosening up and taking care of their arm. The whole process should imbed a healthy approach to their arm.

7. It has been developed and refined (which continues today) by coaches who know a lot more about baseball than you ever will, so you are leveraging others knowledge.

There are other "systems" but you will not find a better one than. www.jaegersports.com

As far as measuring it's success this is difficult since you will never know since your son's will continue to throw harder as he grows. The other stuff you suggested are just your guesses and some of them would seem to me would do more damage than help.
TRhitTRhit10,000+ posts
Interesting to me :

I had a player who started with me as a 9 year old in LL and pitched again for me on my travel team as a HS player---he went to have a great career at the D-1 level and is termed the best pitcher ever at his college--he is now at the double A level in the pros---

He always warmed up prior to the game with long toss---did not set foot on the mound until he warmed up for the first inning---I never questioned it as it worked for him


HEY ---if it ain't broke don't try to fix it
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
HEY ---if it ain't broke don't try to fix it


Maybe I shouldn't introduce the long toss....it doesn't appear to be broke! The first year my son was in LL there were many pitchers who threw harder than him. Since then he has caught and passed everyone in his age group. Sometimes I just attribute it to his genetics as he grew faster than most of the other kids and at other times I attribute it to his dedication of constant bullpen throwing. It seems as if he is always throwing a baseball! Tonight at a game of a league he is not even a part of I was trying to find my son and finally found him- there he was warming up the left fielder inbetween innings- had found someones glove and managed to go out and throw to him...its like an addiction for him I guess!

One thing strange- he once warmed up before a game with a weighted baseball and threw really hard in that game. Of coarse it was also the only time he really complained of arm pain afterwards. Don't know if it was just from throwing harder or doing a different warm-up routine before the game.

I agree that if something works for a kid to just leave them alone. Maybe I will just leave son alone and not do the LT, its not like he is really lacking in velocity, although...velocity gains are always welcome!
H hitpitchcatch10+ posts
LT on flat ground causes a pitcher to throw "uphill" and may be good for warming up, generally. Starting from halfway behind the mound and second, and working toward the rubber makes more sense, although you don't see it much. Throwing from the mound reinforces throwing "downhill," which is a good thing.
Weighted balls are asking for trouble.
Velocity and control come from good mechanics, muscle memory, maturing, and repetition of actions to be performed in the game - pitching from an elevated mound.
B BaseballMom10100+ posts
Hi,

Son's pitching coach does a type of modified long toss as he is warming up for a bullpen session.

He has my son play catch and gradually back up to the mound and then beyond the mound to about 2nd base.

Once he reaches second then he throws home from second using a crow hop, loose arm action and follow through. No arc.

Then he goes to the mound and throws a fastball trying to maintain the natural arm action and arm speed from the long toss.

Son repeats this alternation a few times and then begins his bullpen.

Team coaches have all the players do traditional long toss as part of their warm up.

I think it depends on what works for each individual.
N ncball100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
quote:
HEY ---if it ain't broke don't try to fix it


Maybe I shouldn't introduce the long toss....it doesn't appear to be broke! The first year my son was in LL there were many pitchers who threw harder than him. Since then he has caught and passed everyone in his age group. Sometimes I just attribute it to his genetics as he grew faster than most of the other kids and at other times I attribute it to his dedication of constant bullpen throwing. It seems as if he is always throwing a baseball! Tonight at a game of a league he is not even a part of I was trying to find my son and finally found him- there he was warming up the left fielder inbetween innings- had found someones glove and managed to go out and throw to him...its like an addiction for him I guess!

One thing strange- he once warmed up before a game with a weighted baseball and threw really hard in that game. Of coarse it was also the only time he really complained of arm pain afterwards. Don't know if it was just from throwing harder or doing a different warm-up routine before the game.

I agree that if something works for a kid to just leave them alone. Maybe I will just leave son alone and not do the LT, its not like he is really lacking in velocity, although...velocity gains are always welcome!


I have serious doubt whether you are really interested in getting your son's arm stronger because you seem to discount these other things. Based on using Alan Jaeger's long-toss program (as subscribed by BOF) for over a dozen years in our program, it works.

I have put my middle school players on a banding and long-toss program through the whole spring and have seen a dramatic increase in arm srength and velocity. There is no doubt that if you put in the time, you will see results with that program. I've seen way too many success stories.
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
I have serious doubt whether you are really interested in getting your son's arm stronger because you seem to discount these other things. Based on using Alan Jaeger's long-toss program (as subscribed by BOF) for over a dozen years in our program, it works.

I have put my middle school players on a banding and long-toss program through the whole spring and have seen a dramatic increase in arm srength and velocity. There is no doubt that if you put in the time, you will see results with that program. I've seen way too many success stories.



I am not saying long toss doesn't work. I am just weighing the options of changing sons workout routine midstream. I mean really- if he is still able to throw as fast as the best talent around maybe there is nothing wrong with his appraoch. He still throws basically the same in his bullpen work, just without the crow-hop and angle for distance.

What it really might come down to is effort! If a kid is wise in his bullpen work he should be able to put in a max effort throwing workout that resembles the effort done in long toss.

In my sons case, I attribute his arm strength and velocity up to this point as part genetic ability (a little taller and stronger than average), part proper and repeatable mechanics, and mostly just throwing a lot of baseballs (about an hour to two hours a day). None of his workout routine ever has included a long toss program. Now I am not saying that LT will or will not increase his velocity and arm strength. I am just saying that maybe his bullpen style of work achieves possibly the same or better results.
P pioneers310+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
quote:
I have serious doubt whether you are really interested in getting your son's arm stronger because you seem to discount these other things. Based on using Alan Jaeger's long-toss program (as subscribed by BOF) for over a dozen years in our program, it works.

I have put my middle school players on a banding and long-toss program through the whole spring and have seen a dramatic increase in arm srength and velocity. There is no doubt that if you put in the time, you will see results with that program. I've seen way too many success stories.



I am not saying long toss doesn't work. I am just weighing the options of changing sons workout routine midstream. I mean really- if he is still able to throw as fast as the best talent around maybe there is nothing wrong with his appraoch. He still throws basically the same in his bullpen work, just without the crow-hop and angle for distance.

What it really might come down to is effort! If a kid is wise in his bullpen work he should be able to put in a max effort throwing workout that resembles the effort done in long toss.

In my sons case, I attribute his arm strength and velocity up to this point as part genetic ability (a little taller and stronger than average), part proper and repeatable mechanics, and mostly just throwing a lot of baseballs (about an hour to two hours a day). None of his workout routine ever has included a long toss program. Now I am not saying that LT will or will not increase his velocity and arm strength. I am just saying that maybe his bullpen style of work achieves possibly the same or better results.


My feelings about bullpens is it shouldn't be max effort, it's a time to feel for mechanics in low stress situations, feel for release points, feel for your off speed, staying fresh.

LT for me was another way to condition my arm.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
GM,
There has been such good information given to you. In another topic, PG stated something, about reinventing the wheel. Just my opinion, but whatever training your son has come up with, he may be headed down a dangerous path.
He does these drills after he pitches. Eek Remember, the damage is accumulative.

BTW, if you are a coach and not incorporating LT for your players, quit.
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
GM,
There has been such good information given to you. In another topic, PG stated something, about reinventing the wheel. Just my opinion, but whatever training your son has come up with, he may be headed down a dangerous path.
He does these drills after he pitches. Remember, the damage is accumulative.

BTW, if you are a coach and not incorporating LT for your players, quit.


I woudn't say he is headed down a dangerous path, nor is he reinventing the wheel. He just goes with his own flow. Most coaches are so overly worried about babying arms that they overlook the real picture- that successful players who play professionally throw a lot of baseballs every day!

You almost sound as if saying that I suck as a coach and parent because I do not incorporate LT into team or sons practice. Thanks for improperly judging me! Not every coach proscribes to LT as the "only" drill for baseball pitchers. I honestly believe bullpen work is more effective to a pitcher than LT if one were to spend the same amount of time doing each. A lot of people often think bullpen= max effort on every pitch. A proper bullpen includes warming up for 20-30 minutes lightly tossing and stretching out and then working up to full velocity without ever incorporating a crow-hop and different arm angles.

I don't tell my son when to throw or not to throw. If he is feeling good after a game and wants to throw he has the green light and often will go outside and pitch when we get home. Coach tells him to ice up and rest, so son goes home, watches sportcenter and then goes outside and throws for a half hour or an hour then comes in gets out the ice and makes himself a nice fat strawberry lemonade!

Some things work for some and not for others. Maybe son has natural rare release mechanics and that is why he doesn't have typical arm pain after throwing, or maybe...his arm is just better conditioned than most everyone elses. My guess? The latter!
BOFBOF10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
You almost sound as if saying that I suck as a coach and parent because I do not incorporate LT into team or sons practice.

I honestly believe bullpen work is more effective to a pitcher than LT if one were to spend the same amount of time doing each. A lot of people often think bullpen= max effort on every pitch.


From what I have read in your posts GM you seem generally interested helping the kids you are coaching and this is great, however you seem to want to argue "why your way is right" without the proper knowledge. You don't "suck" but IMO seem uninformed and seem to want to stick to what you are doing, just because you think it works. You have limited coaching experience with only young kids, in an area that does not have a high baseball IQ. My advice would be for you to pay attention to what advice you are getting here, and more importantly reach out to experts in their fields.

The only thing I have learned in this coaching process is that I don't know squat compared to others who have been doing this for a very long time. You need to find those you can trust and learn from. It will be more difficult for you because of where you live but reach out and listen and you and your kids will be better off.

My advice is not intended to offend you just some straight talk on how to develop into a better coach.
Last edited by BOF
08Dad08Dad1,000+ posts
Just from personal experience - I was a parent coach for my son through 14U - and while I knew that I could still learn more, I felt I was a pretty knowledgeable coach.

Then my son joined NCBALL's program - and I saw how little I really knew. The LT program that they follow became a part of my son's program for 3 years now. Is it the only way?

Probably not - but on my son's 17U team pitching staff of nine - all of whom are college freshman now- there has been a pretty darn good success rate. Looking up their stats shows:

One pitcher who is a Friday night starter for his Pac 10 team
One who is the Saturday starter for his Pac 10 team,
One who is a starting pitcher for a WCC team (leading the team starters in ERA)
Two who are relievers in the Big West
One who is relieving in the ACC
One who is redshirting at a Big West team
Two who are playing juco ball this year.

So out of a staff of 9, 7 are playing D1 ball and all are still pitching.
Last edited by 08Dad
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
My husband taught son everything he knew, at the age your son is at he decided that as much as he knew someone else knew better. It was also a learning experience for him.
No one said you sucked, however, as a coach it is YOUR responsibility to provide the best training and conditioning for your players. You can do what you want with your own son, but do what is right for others and that includes not being narrow minded.

Seems to me that you are confused about throwing everyday vs pitching everyday. Pro players DO NOT pitch everyday. They throw everyday. They have a regular routine that begins immediately after they are done pitching, until the next time they pitch. It does not include pitching after you just pitched. If your method worked, every pitching coach would be doing it, wonder why they are not?

BTW, they don't sit around being babied or doing nothing. The routine they follow is NOTHING as you describe (neither in college either or in HS for that matter).

You don't want to incorporate a strict LT program, that may be your choice, but FWIW, pitching is about incorporating the mechanics and conditioning of the entire body, those pitchers that throw hard and all in the arm, are subject to injury and that is a known fact.

Your son is young and healthy, he should feel well, but he is young and has not pitched even half of what is required to get to where he or you might want him someday, that is the issue. Don't ever feel that because he is gaining velocity there might not be anything going on, inside.

I am not arguing that you NEED to incorporate a LT program if you feel no need to, this benefits ALL players. But for your son to pitch, go home and pitch somemore, ain't gonna work, you will understand that someday. I do hope that young pitchers here reading your son's success story (at 14)DO NOT follow that model.

You started a topic about the hopes and dreams that you have for your son, I really truely hope that you see that someday.
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
It's all about finding what works. And right now it is not broken. Maybe some day LT will be pursued by son, who knows.

But at this point I am of the opinion that because what son does appears to be working that I am going to keep putting stock into his program, after all- the results are everything, and the results we are recieving have been beyond satisfactory!

Does LT improve velocity? Probably
Does LT improve arm health? Probably

But-

What part of LT actually improves velocity? Its certainly not the crow-hop or arm angle which only leaves "effort".

So, in reality-

Velocity increase= added effort.
Arm health= added effort.

Added effort in the throwing process can be achieved whether one throws short distances or long distances- the ball still leaves the hand at the same applied effort involved!

BTW- pitcher don't throw pitches on the crow-hop, nor do they release balls at an upward angle.

So-

If I want to both increase sons pitching velocity from the mound and protect his arm while doing it, then it appears the best drill for him to utilize would be throwing more from the mound and not incorporate motions into his delivery that are not to be repeated from the mound while pitching.
Bulldog 19Bulldog 195,000+ posts
quote:
It's all about finding what works. And right now it is not broken. Maybe some day LT will be pursued by son, who knows.


It might not hurt him now, but it's setting him up for failure later. Overuse injuries are just that-- overuse. And many times they take time to develop.

quote:
If I want to both increase sons pitching velocity from the mound and protect his arm while doing it, then it appears the best drill for him to utilize would be throwing more from the mound and not incorporate motions into his delivery that are not to be repeated from the mound while pitching.


Throwing off the mound more? Are you even serious? That is what causes arm injuries in the first place! Because kids throw off the mound TOO MUCH. They PITCH too much and don't THROW enough!

But it's your kid-- YOU have to make those decisions and YOU have to live with the consequences.
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
Gingerbread,

I suggest you read this thread.
Student of the Game

There are many different ways to go about throwing long. I can't think of anyone who doesn't do it in some way. However, two hours on the mound every day seems rare. I hope you stick around for 5 years so we can find out how everything turns out.

I hope you know that there have been many outstanding very young pitchers who didn't become good pitchers by the age it counted the most.

I believe most anything is possible, so maybe your method will be proven correct. I'd bet against it though. Questions... Did someone teach you this method or did you invent it? I would be interested in knowing who might have recommended just throwing from the mound. Does your son ever warm up (throw) on flat ground before getting on the mound?

quote:
I don't tell my son when to throw or not to throw. If he is feeling good after a game and wants to throw he has the green light and often will go outside and pitch when we get home. Coach tells him to ice up and rest, so son goes home, watches sportcenter and then goes outside and throws for a half hour or an hour then comes in gets out the ice and makes himself a nice fat strawberry lemonade!

FWIW... Above is extremely dangerous and a recipe for disaster IMO. Not so much the ice after pitching, but the throwing followed by throwing again later in the day after he has cooled down. Also the disregarding the coach thing seems kind of revealing. If your son ends up being good enough, at some level you will no longer be coaching him. It works that way for everyone.
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
It might not hurt him now, but it's setting him up for failure later. Overuse injuries are just that-- overuse. And many times they take time to develop.


Overuse versus improper conditioning- that's a topic for another thread.

quote:
Throwing off the mound more? Are you even serious? That is what causes arm injuries in the first place! Because kids throw off the mound TOO MUCH. They PITCH too much and don't THROW enough!

But it's your kid-- YOU have to make those decisions and YOU have to live with the consequences.


No, I believe you may have worded it incorrectly. Throwing a little or a lot off the mound has nothing to do with arm injuries. Arm injuries are a result of improper conditioning of the muscles involved considering that of coarse- the pitcher is applying good mechanics.

Pitchers who do not train enough from the mound who then all of a sudden go out and perform a marathon event far surpassing what they have been conditioned to perform are at a much higher risk for injury. Quarter horses are not trained to run a mile or even two miles full bore- they would suffer muscle pulls and tears and would have to be retired. Pitchers suffer injuries most often due to lack of training and conditioning of the muscles involved to pitch. If they never spend time training to do just that- pitch from the mound, then of coarse they are at the highest risk of injury.

I have seen teams that have a philosophy of babying the pitchers arm way too much by not having them throw in practice from the mound but rather 10-20 LT throws and then shut them down. So inbetween outings they may actually never pitch more than 20 or 30 actual pitches from a mound at near gameday velocity

It's true- they don't "throw enough" from the mound during practice and conditioning sessions to actually build up and protect their arms.

Throwing more from shorter distances which more closely mimick the actual pitching delivery will do more to strengthen, protect, and build velocity in an arm.
Y Yardbird100+ posts
“Gingerbread Man,”

quote:
“What specifically does LT do that is somehow better than pitching a session off the ol bump?


Nothing! While maximal effort throwing is good for you because it creates fast twitch recruitment it does not build functional strength, you cannot train with a 5.5 Oz. object and build muscle mass.

quote:
”I can see if one was an outfielder or and needed to work on the ol crow-hop “


Actually, the ol Crow-hop motion is the way pitchers should perform also because it allows you to get the ball arm up before the glove leg touches down.

quote:
“that would be better suited to an outfielder”


Only if the long toss is performed correctly and high parabolic arc long toss with a pull down motion finish is not the way players should be taught to throw from the outfield, infield or pitch.

quote:
“LT is for the most part to "strengthen the arm" (increase velocity).”


This is where everybody gets it wrong! Long toss barely strengthens the arm or body but does stimulate the fast twitch timing response. To strengthen the arm and body you must overload train sport specifically and maximal effort throwing is underload training that is also necessary.

quote:
“ But as far as pitching goes, it seems to me that pitching off the bump would do a better job of this”
.

You are absolutely correct, keep up the good work!

quote:
“ Or even throwing short distances in multiple repetitions would achieve better results for a pitcher.”


You can throw maximally at any distance but LT is enjoyable. There just is not any throw ever made in competition in this manor so the first tenet of sport exercise physiology is to be “Sport specific”, very important. Athletes whom train generally are talented at being generally fit not sport specifically fit.

quote:
”My own son has not done a true LT drill ever!”


I’ll bet your son is deadly accurate if asked to hit a cut off man from the outfield unlike most of the high arc long tossers. It always cracks me up to watch a coach have his players warm up with a high arc long toss routine then ask them to practice a pre-game infield and outfield, then yell at all of them for flying the throws when it is actually the coaches fault.

Try it out, just tell him to throw lasers with no arc, no more than when the ball starts to drop off while his shoulders remain level to the ground and his ball hand is top of head high at initial forward force. Tell him to finish by staying tall and fully rotating his hips
180 degrees without the disconnection of anchored ball arm leg that the incorrect pull down phase gives you.

quote:
"I am working on the snap part of my throw" something he believes is most vital to arm strength and velocity gains.”


Lets hope it is pronation snap and not supination snap? This is why Long toss with a Crow-hop is good, it helps you throw correctly and not like a traditional pitcher. Watch how a Crow-hopper takes the ball up completely different (correctly thumb up) than when he pitches (incorrectly thumb down) now bring that same motion to the mound.

quote:
“Why do so many people subscribe to LT”


Because it has been sold to them by people whom know little about exercise physiology or kinesiology, you know the whole baseball establishment. When you cannot overload train specifically because of the injurious way in which youth are taught to throw, LT becomes the only specific training club in your bag.

quote:
“ when to me as an observer, it seems way more logical to do repetitive work from distances closer and more accurate to them playing their position, especially for pitching?”


And you would be absolutely correct in your evaluation here, keep on trucking.

quote:
”If a kid is wise in his bullpen work he should be able to put in a max effort throwing workout that resembles the effort done in long toss.”


After a good warm up, pitchers should train maximally with every pitch, this will then carry over to competition more easily than time spent with bad shoulder and arm positioning from high arc LT.

quote:
”In my sons case, I attribute his arm strength and velocity up to this point as part genetic ability (a little taller and stronger than average), “


Your son’s genetic gift of higher fast twitch ratio has nothing to do with body size and strength.

quote:
“mostly just throwing a lot of baseballs (about an hour to two hours a day).”


If his mechanics are non injurious, this is part of the way to do it, very good.

quote:
“achieves possibly the same or better results.”


It will produce better results!

quote:
“Some things work for some and not for others.”


This is an incorrect statement physiologically

quote:
“Maybe son has natural rare release mechanics and that is why he doesn't have typical arm pain after throwing, or maybe...his arm is just better conditioned than most everyone elses. My guess? The latter!”


My estimation from listening to you is that it is both!

BOF,
quote:
“in an area that does not have a high baseball IQ”
“to want to argue "why your way is right" without the proper knowledge.”


If this regional lack of knowledge is true which it is not (what a ridiculous and pompous statement) it has actually saved his kid from the damage high arc long toss creates.
(Ulnar nerve, Labrum and rotator cuff degradation). Poll all the kids while long tossing
your way and see if any of them feel tingling at the outside of the middle and all of the ring and little fingers, I’ve done it a long time ago, you will be amazed, I have witnessed
and hear about many labrum tears doing LT incorrectly in the last 30 years. The Colleges drop them like flies. It’s a good thing professionals train basically on their own and mostly stay away from this, it will be interesting to see the results of Rangers this year if they implement mandatory LT for their pitchers, Noley is one of these experts you speak of I suspect?

Could you answer some questions for me please?
What is that Pogo hop mechanic called you have been taught and why?
What is “throwing through a stretch mean”? Is this a physiological term? I can’t find it anywhere and what is the reason for the “pull down phase” when the ball was released long before this movement?

quote:
“My advice would be for you to pay attention to what advice you are getting here, and more importantly reach out to experts in their fields.”


These experts you speak of, would this be MLB, College or High School personnel? There are no experts in exercise physiology, Kinesiology and applied anatomy there! The MLB is a good old boys club, degrees not necessary. I wouldn’t trust any of it.
Since the information is anecdotally attained and traditionally passed by and down it mostly has no merit, I would trust intelligent parents befor them from what I have witnessed.

quote:
”The only thing I have learned in this coaching process is that I don't know squat compared to others who have been doing this for a very long time.”
“You need to find those you can trust and learn from”


Yet you have blindly trusted these so called experts who have been blowing up arms for this “very long time” that have very little scientific knowledge in this field. Why should this false information from the same sources keep being trusted?

quote:
“It will be more difficult for you because of where you live but reach out and listen and you and your kids will be better off.” ”My advice is not intended to offend “


Yet you have offended him, me and others whom have deep family roots in Idaho who all play and enjoy baseball and also understand every bit of handed down “Yard myth” as well as everybody else. I am getting used to your act (attacks) though, it is not so surprising any more.

The College with the most rings resides in Idaho!

08dad,

quote:
“Then my son joined NCBALL's program “


Anecdotal information about hand picked elite youth players whom would move on no matter where they come up from does not tell us anything

quote:
“Is it the only way?


Gingerbread Man is showing you that this is not the case.

If his motion does not produce injury starting with inflammation and he is biologically 19 yo then pitching off a mound every day is the best way to do it, Bravo gingerbread boy.

If he has forearm bounce then he is eating away at his UCL and it will fail with out much pain, if not, keep up the good work.
I hope that an hour is an exaggeration especially after a competitive game if he has traditional mechanics, if his mechanics are non injurious he can train hard in the morning
and then pitch competitively in the evening. Pitch counts mean nothing with non-injurious mechanics.
Last edited by Yardbird
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
If he has forearm bounce then he is eating away at his UCL and it will fail with out much pain, if not, keep up the good work.
I hope that an hour is an exaggeration especially after a competitive game if he has traditional mechanics, if his mechanics are non injurious he can train hard in the morning
and then pitch competitively in the evening. Pitch counts mean nothing with non-injurious mechanics.


Don't know what you mean by forearm bounce, what is that?

Son only has pain on occasion in the bicep and tricep area.
coach2709coach270910,000+ posts
OMG - we got an outbreak of Yardbird Marshall Fungus!!!! Who's got the disinfectant????

People do teach LT wrong when kids are almost hitting airplanes when they do it. LT should be about increasing distance with a slight arc. To get that slight arc you have to throw the ball outward and not upward. If you do that then the velocity will increase as the distance is gained.

OF throws go over relay men heads because they are in the wrong spot usually. It's not that the OF threw it too high (which sometimes they do) but the relay men don't get close enough to the base or catcher. OF relays should be a long throw from the OF to the relay man and then a short throw to the base. When the ball gets into the gap / corner then you have two long throws. But in either one there has to be some height on the ball but not high enough to hit planes.

Imagine this - you go outside and pick up a baseball for the first time. You throw to get loose and then go to the foul line. You throw the ball 100 feet. I think we can all agree that's not good enough once you get to high school. So you have to improve upon it.

Put someone at 95 feet so they catch the ball around the chest / waist area and make 20 throws at max effort everyday for a month. You will see improvement in your speed but you are probably going to be around 110 feet.

Reason being - the weight and distance do not change and once you reach max effort there is nothing else left to improve upon. The arc will never change either. Only way to gain more is through natural growth which will only lead to another slight increase.

But if you put that guy at 95 feet and 20 throws for a week at max effort. Then the next week do the same thing at 100 feet. Each week after that increase about 10 feet you will eventually be throwing around 130 feet.

Reason being - the max effort doesn't change but the arc being thrown will go slightly up with each gain in distance. Plus to get it there requires more velocity.

Think about it like this - when you throw a ball you have to overcome gravity. Each time you increase the distance then you have to increase the arc or it won't get there. Once the ball leaves your hand it is decelerating but the thing you are trying to do is have the deceleration take place later than sooner. So the farther you throw the longer it takes to decelerate.

To go back to the marathon runner example - they incorporate sprinting in their training. Reason is they want to be able to increase their speed down the stretch in case they have to beat someone. The more they can train at max speed for a longer distance the bigger their advantage over someone who cannot maintain max speed for a longer distance.

So basically LT is about building up speed and bullpens are one part of the solution for endurance.

Plus LT is a great way to learn how to throw a changeup.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
Son only has pain on occasion in the bicep and tricep area.


Interesting comment from you GBM, your son should haver NO PAIN anywhere. The pain signals that there is an issue going on, somewhere. Ift may take awhile for the results to show up. What other conditioning does your son do, does he pitch more with his arm or his entire body?
If you go back and read my posts, my concern is that you state your son pitches, cools down, then picks up a ball that evening and throws for an hour or maybe more. And you obviously let him because all you see is results of higher velocity gains so obviously you don't even care to understand what he is doing. I really have aproblem with this.

PG was kind he hopes you are around in 5 years, I give it 3. Your son is not an 18, 19 or 20 or even 23 year old man, but with a body that still is developing and growing. He can get in all the mound work and BP work he wants later on, if proper mechanics are being used and his entire body is conditioned, but sounds to me you are just focusing on arm, arm, arm.

I am not sure why you come and ask questions, you already come with the attitude that what you and he are doing is right. Why bother to ask?

I am not going to say I agree with everything in this topic, or argue Marshall mechanics vs. tradional, but come on dad, use some COMMON SENSE.
Last edited by TPM
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
quote:
Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
Son only has pain on occasion in the bicep and tricep area.


Interesting comment from you GBM, your son should have NO PAIN anywhere. The pain signals that there is an issue going on, somewhere. It may take awhile for the results to show up. What other conditioning does your son do, does he pitch more with his arm or his entire body?
If you go back and read my posts, my concern is that you state your son pitches, cools down, then picks up a ball that evening and throws for an hour or maybe more. And you obviously let him because all you see is results of higher velocity gains so obviously you don't even care to understand what he is doing. I really have aproblem with this.

PG was kind he hopes you are around in 5 years, I give it 3. Your son is not an 18, 19 or 20 or even 23 year old man, but with a body that still is developing and growing. He can get in all the mound work and BP work he wants later on, if proper mechanics are being used and his entire body is conditioned, but sounds to me you are just focusing on arm, arm, arm.

I am not sure why you come and ask questions, you already come with the attitude that what you and he are doing is right. Why bother to ask?

I am not going to say I agree with everything in this topic, or argue Marshall mechanics vs. tradional, but come on dad, use some COMMON SENSE.
N ncball100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Yardbird:
“Gingerbread Man,”

quote:
“What specifically does LT do that is somehow better than pitching a session off the ol bump?


Nothing! While maximal effort throwing is good for you because it creates fast twitch recruitment it does not build functional strength, you cannot train with a 5.5 Oz. object and build muscle mass.

quote:
”I can see if one was an outfielder or and needed to work on the ol crow-hop “


Actually, the ol Crow-hop motion is the way pitchers should perform also because it allows you to get the ball arm up before the glove leg touches down.

quote:
“that would be better suited to an outfielder”


Only if the long toss is performed correctly and high parabolic arc long toss with a pull down motion finish is not the way players should be taught to throw from the outfield, infield or pitch.

quote:
“LT is for the most part to "strengthen the arm" (increase velocity).”


This is where everybody gets it wrong! Long toss barely strengthens the arm or body but does stimulate the fast twitch timing response. To strengthen the arm and body you must overload train sport specifically and maximal effort throwing is underload training that is also necessary.

quote:
“ But as far as pitching goes, it seems to me that pitching off the bump would do a better job of this”
.

You are absolutely correct, keep up the good work!

quote:
“ Or even throwing short distances in multiple repetitions would achieve better results for a pitcher.”


You can throw maximally at any distance but LT is enjoyable. There just is not any throw ever made in competition in this manor so the first tenet of sport exercise physiology is to be “Sport specific”, very important. Athletes whom train generally are talented at being generally fit not sport specifically fit.

quote:
”My own son has not done a true LT drill ever!”


I’ll bet your son is deadly accurate if asked to hit a cut off man from the outfield unlike most of the high arc long tossers. It always cracks me up to watch a coach have his players warm up with a high arc long toss routine then ask them to practice a pre-game infield and outfield, then yell at all of them for flying the throws when it is actually the coaches fault.

Try it out, just tell him to throw lasers with no arc, no more than when the ball starts to drop off while his shoulders remain level to the ground and his ball hand is top of head high at initial forward force. Tell him to finish by staying tall and fully rotating his hips
180 degrees without the disconnection of anchored ball arm leg that the incorrect pull down phase gives you.

quote:
"I am working on the snap part of my throw" something he believes is most vital to arm strength and velocity gains.”


Lets hope it is pronation snap and not supination snap? This is why Long toss with a Crow-hop is good, it helps you throw correctly and not like a traditional pitcher. Watch how a Crow-hopper takes the ball up completely different (correctly thumb up) than when he pitches (incorrectly thumb down) now bring that same motion to the mound.

quote:
“Why do so many people subscribe to LT”


Because it has been sold to them by people whom know little about exercise physiology or kinesiology, you know the whole baseball establishment. When you cannot overload train specifically because of the injurious way in which youth are taught to throw, LT becomes the only specific training club in your bag.

quote:
“ when to me as an observer, it seems way more logical to do repetitive work from distances closer and more accurate to them playing their position, especially for pitching?”


And you would be absolutely correct in your evaluation here, keep on trucking.

quote:
”If a kid is wise in his bullpen work he should be able to put in a max effort throwing workout that resembles the effort done in long toss.”


After a good warm up, pitchers should train maximally with every pitch, this will then carry over to competition more easily than time spent with bad shoulder and arm positioning from high arc LT.

quote:
”In my sons case, I attribute his arm strength and velocity up to this point as part genetic ability (a little taller and stronger than average), “


Your son’s genetic gift of higher fast twitch ratio has nothing to do with body size and strength.

quote:
“mostly just throwing a lot of baseballs (about an hour to two hours a day).”


If his mechanics are non injurious, this is part of the way to do it, very good.

quote:
“achieves possibly the same or better results.”


It will produce better results!

quote:
“Some things work for some and not for others.”


This is an incorrect statement physiologically

quote:
“Maybe son has natural rare release mechanics and that is why he doesn't have typical arm pain after throwing, or maybe...his arm is just better conditioned than most everyone elses. My guess? The latter!”


My estimation from listening to you is that it is both!

BOF,
quote:
“in an area that does not have a high baseball IQ”
“to want to argue "why your way is right" without the proper knowledge.”


If this regional lack of knowledge is true which it is not (what a ridiculous and pompous statement) it has actually saved his kid from the damage high arc long toss creates.
(Ulnar nerve, Labrum and rotator cuff degradation). Poll all the kids while long tossing
your way and see if any of them feel tingling at the outside of the middle and all of the ring and little fingers, I’ve done it a long time ago, you will be amazed, I have witnessed
and hear about many labrum tears doing LT incorrectly in the last 30 years. The Colleges drop them like flies. It’s a good thing professionals train basically on their own and mostly stay away from this, it will be interesting to see the results of Rangers this year if they implement mandatory LT for their pitchers, Noley is one of these experts you speak of I suspect?

Could you answer some questions for me please?
What is that Pogo hop mechanic called you have been taught and why?
What is “throwing through a stretch mean”? Is this a physiological term? I can’t find it anywhere and what is the reason for the “pull down phase” when the ball was released long before this movement?

quote:
“My advice would be for you to pay attention to what advice you are getting here, and more importantly reach out to experts in their fields.”


These experts you speak of, would this be MLB, College or High School personnel? There are no experts in exercise physiology, Kinesiology and applied anatomy there! The MLB is a good old boys club, degrees not necessary. I wouldn’t trust any of it.
Since the information is anecdotally attained and traditionally passed by and down it mostly has no merit, I would trust intelligent parents befor them from what I have witnessed.

quote:
”The only thing I have learned in this coaching process is that I don't know squat compared to others who have been doing this for a very long time.”
“You need to find those you can trust and learn from”


Yet you have blindly trusted these so called experts who have been blowing up arms for this “very long time” that have very little scientific knowledge in this field. Why should this false information from the same sources keep being trusted?

quote:
“It will be more difficult for you because of where you live but reach out and listen and you and your kids will be better off.” ”My advice is not intended to offend “


Yet you have offended him, me and others whom have deep family roots in Idaho who all play and enjoy baseball and also understand every bit of handed down “Yard myth” as well as everybody else. I am getting used to your act (attacks) though, it is not so surprising any more.

The College with the most rings resides in Idaho!

08dad,

quote:
“Then my son joined NCBALL's program “


Anecdotal information about hand picked elite youth players whom would move on no matter where they come up from does not tell us anything

quote:
“Is it the only way?


Gingerbread Man is showing you that this is not the case.

If his motion does not produce injury starting with inflammation and he is biologically 19 yo then pitching off a mound every day is the best way to do it, Bravo gingerbread boy.

If he has forearm bounce then he is eating away at his UCL and it will fail with out much pain, if not, keep up the good work.
I hope that an hour is an exaggeration especially after a competitive game if he has traditional mechanics, if his mechanics are non injurious he can train hard in the morning
and then pitch competitively in the evening. Pitch counts mean nothing with non-injurious mechanics.


Why do you have to come on here and support a guy who has no clue what he's talking about. Furthermore, what is the incessant need to constantly wear people down with long, tedious drivel. I'm sorry, I'm not as nice as the rest of these people. You and GBM are two village idiots!
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
Interesting comment from you GBM, your son should haver NO PAIN anywhere. The pain signals that there is an issue going on, somewhere. Ift may take awhile for the results to show up. What other conditioning does your son do, does he pitch more with his arm or his entire body?
If you go back and read my posts, my concern is that you state your son pitches, cools down, then picks up a ball that evening and throws for an hour or maybe more. And you obviously let him because all you see is results of higher velocity gains so obviously you don't even care to understand what he is doing. I really have aproblem with this.

PG was kind he hopes you are around in 5 years, I give it 3. Your son is not an 18, 19 or 20 or even 23 year old man, but with a body that still is developing and growing. He can get in all the mound work and BP work he wants later on, if proper mechanics are being used and his entire body is conditioned, but sounds to me you are just focusing on arm, arm, arm.

I am not sure why you come and ask questions, you already come with the attitude that what you and he are doing is right. Why bother to ask?

I am not going to say I agree with everything in this topic, or argue Marshall mechanics vs. tradional, but come on dad, use some COMMON SENSE.



Good grief TPM, you are jumping to way too many conclusions! If you will note- I said on "occasion" his arm gets sore in the bicep and tricep area. There has never been a pitcher in the history of baseball at any level that never had any arm pain!!

He pitches with his whole body btw. His motion is nice and fluid- high leg kick, great rotation of the shoulders and hip and great follow through. His mechanics are highly advanced for his age as is his control, velocity and poise. Thats not just my opinion, that is the opinion of other coaches telling him that.

He has never had any chronic arm pain ever from pitching. He has only suffered two injuries from playing baseball- one from when I beaned him in the shoulder a few years back and two- last year when he accidently slipped off the mound and strained his back mildly.

I am very careful as to how much he actually throws at "game speed velocity". He pitches 3-4 innings a week in games but usually throws every night to keep warm. What you do not realize is that his pitch counts in games this year very rarely go over 50 pitches per week! It is no wonder then that he can go home after a game and continue to throw.

You seem to have this problem of assuming way too much and jump to conclusions in your own mind without knowing everything there is to tell.

I am well aware of the criticla year of this and next with sons growth plates, muscle, and bone maturation. That is why we chose to play half as many games this year- so that we could have better control of when and how much he actually threw. Now most of his pitching is in a highly controlled environment doing bullpen work. He actually pitches more in bullpens than he does in games. Including his both his bullpen and gameday counts, he probably totals somewhere around 100-125 pitches per week at gamespeed velocity.

When he goes home and throws after a game it is not at full velocity- more about twothirds most of the time with some appraoching full velocity. He is thus much better conditioned than most kids his age. At actaul baseball practice we run them through full stretching and workout drills 3-4 days a week including push-ups, jumping jacks, sprints and warm ups tot hrow. They then throw for 20 minutes before we actually do game situation drills. I would definately say that we are conditioning their whole bodies, not just the arms.

I have a personal philosophy that a baseball player can throw a million throws a season and it will never hurt them as long as they are properly warmed up and throw with a nice fluid motion. Some kids on the team get sore after just 4-5 minutes of throwing- definately a warning sign that their mechanics are screwed up- and mainly because they do not spend enough time just throwing and playing catch to properly condition the body and arm to throw.

I don't feel I have any bad attitude against LT, I just wonder why so much hype in it. You know, I do find it interesting that I can compliment others opinions on topics and agree that it may work down the raod for son, and you seem pretty hel_l-bent that evrything i am teaching my son is sure to destroy his arm.
Y Yardbird100+ posts
Gingerbreadman,

quote:
“Don't know what you mean by forearm bounce, what is that?”


Forearm bounce is what causes UCL degradation (Valgus torque) in the traditionally oriented pitchers.
When traditional pitchers (7/8’s ¾ and 5/8’s arm vectors) drive their arms forward during shoulder rotational acceleration (3/4’s produces the most stress) the elbow goes foreword when the ball actually goes backwards that puts unnecessary over stress on to the UCL.
Video your child and run the video back in slow motion and you will witness this effect.

quote:
”Son only has pain on occasion in the bicep and tricep area.”


Pain in the Brachialis is always miss-diagnosed as pain in the bicep because the Brachialis runs under and along with the bicep. The cause of this pain is that the brachialis is contracting (eccentrically) to stop the elbow from slamming together from centrifugal traditional throwing mechanics caused by taking the ball and elbow back beyond straight towards second base then driving the ball forward supinating (thumb up) that crashes your elbow together causing the pain at the back of the elbow just below the Triceps.

To stop this from happening you only need to take the ball out of your glove down straight back then up so you do not scapular load your elbow beyond second base then pronate your driveline and release so that your elbow hinges the way it is built.

ncball,

quote:
“Why do you have to come on here and support a guy who has no clue what he's talking about.”


Because he has asked the right questions after intelligently figuring it out correctly.

quote:
“Furthermore, what is the incessant need to constantly wear people down”


Because I am sick and tired of all the miss-information and yard myth that is constantly shoveled out everywhere that leads youth players into the constant and unending pitching injuries that are actually preventable.

I would suggest you do not read my posts because they will always go against your systems need to have youth players compete year round that has increased these injuries 5 fold in the last ten years!

quote:
“with long, tedious drivel.”


That’s the Cool aid coming out of the side of my mouth making a mess of my keyboard.

quote:
“I'm sorry”


Not

quote:
“I'm not as nice as the rest of these people.”


Apparently you have not read others posts regarding this information.

quote:
“You and GBM are two village idiots!”


Hey, leave him out of this; he has made perfect sense here.
Sometimes it takes an idiot like me to make sense of simple scientific concepts like these, I think they call it Occam’s razor. Time will tell whom actually lives in that Village.
coach2709coach270910,000+ posts
quote:
Because I am sick and tired of all the miss-information and yard myth that is constantly shoveled out everywhere that leads youth players into the constant and unending pitching injuries that are actually preventable.


Well all of baseball is sick and tired of hearing people drone on and on about mechanics that do not, have not and never will work. The cult mentality of how you guys try to tell us we are wrong gets very, very old.
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
There are always two sides to every debate. When we talk about injury prevention, that’s one thing. However, injury prevention must coincide with potential.

On one hand we have injury prevention, on the other hand we need to be able to reach our potential.

This really is a confusing situation. We can be safe and never challenge our potential, never become good enough. Safest method is… Never throw a baseball! We all know that won’t work! Pitch counts, proper recovery time and proper conditioning are the next areas of injury prevention. We know that all athletes are not the same, so it’s unlikely there could be any real standard set for things like pitch counts. Too little and you might not reach your potential, too many and you get injured. IMO the answer lies in the individual.

Mechanics, especially anything new related to mechanics, are equally confusing. Heck, let’s say my new mechanics involve lobbing the ball underhanded. It will allow me to throw for almost an entire lifetime without getting injured. My mechanics are much safer that traditional mechanics, so why don’t I use them? Because I won’t be able to perform at a higher level than slow pitch softball!

So IMO, everything has to be considered when talking about pitching a baseball. What it takes to be good enough. What it takes to stay healthy. Those two things don’t always go together. The less you pole vault the less likely to sustain an injury pole vaulting. Of course, you won’t be as good as the best pole vaulters. There’s a give and take in most everything. Is the goal to stay healthy or to be as successful as possible? Risk vs. reward!

Just something to think about!
M MTS100+ posts
1st Yardbird's pitchers are not Marshall pitchers They pick and chose parts of Marshall's mechanics that Yardbird calls tenets. That is not Marshall mechanics. Marshall does not condone Yardbird's Ala-Carte mechanics. My son has had hitting coaches including one that learned from Tony Gwynn and Ted Williams. My son's all star team had a BP that brought in a batting coach that was a recent high school graduate that was teaching hands to the ball. While my son was hitting the 18 year old instructor tried to provide input that my son ignored. When my son hit one out to right center, the coach proclaimed his success. My son rolled his eyes. The coach had nothing to do with it. Yardbird reminds me of that young high school graduate batting coach.

2nd ASMI, real doctors of medicine and bio-mechanics, have found Marshall's mechanics to be inefficient when compared to traditional mechanics. They threw with less velocity and accuracy while expending more energy and causing additional stresses to the shoulder.
Last edited by MTS
SA S. Abrams100+ posts
Gingerbread Man,

I strongly encourage you to listen to PG Staff and others about the merit of long toss. When done properly, you both stretch and lengthen muscles during one phase and then build strength in the later phase. If you don't understand what I just said, you probably haven't seen long toss done correctly. I have never seen long toss NOT improve a players throwing velocity. Unfortunately, rarely do I see long toss really worked on at youth practices and for the kids to benefit they must work at it. 5-10 minutes of throwing before the game is not even close to real long toss.

#1 reason kids don't make the HS team...they can't throw well enough.

Pitching from the mound is fine but too much or at too high an intensity will destroy an arm. Period. At age 14, your son has dodged the bullet so far but it only takes one bullet to kill you....or a young pitchers arm. Pitching from the mound has never, ever been about primarily gaining velocity...its more about learning how to pitch and developing command of your pitches. If he pitches from the mound for 10 minutes, I hope he is just throwing/playing catch for 30 minutes. Basically, just be careful with the mound work.

Also remember we are talking about a teenager...typically not an age group concerned with the possibility of injury when left to their own devices. Simply put, teenagers can get dumb on you real quick and ignore warning signs of potential injury as they "know" they are immortal. Has your son ever pitched with some type of arm pain? If your son is a competitor, the answer is probably, but its not something he will tell anyone about or enough pain to make him worry.

Catchers throw long toss everyday and throw more than any player on the field including pitchers. Yet rarely do catchers have serious arm issues and often can have velocity near or at alot of pitchers using an abbreviated throwing motion.

Good luck with your son and developing a regime that helps him develop as a pitcher.
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
. Pitching from the mound has never, ever been about primarily gaining velocity...its more about learning how to pitch and developing command of your pitches.


Generally speaking, no, its not about teaching velocity. But- and here is the big but-

If my son has never used LT in his work on gaining velocity, then where is the velocity being learned? My guess it is from the mound because that is the only time when he throws with added affort over any sustainable timeframe. This tells me that velocity is learned by son from the mound. Not every 13 year old, or grown-up for that matter can pick up a baseball and throw 70 mph and yet son can. Velocity is a learned process that takes a lot of time to develop and learn how to do it right. I played a lot of baseball when I was young but never threw over 70 mph. But, I also never worked at throwing a baseball harder with more effort- the kind of effort a pitcher needs. Then again- I never pitched when I was younger either.

Did you read my post above to TPM? I explained very well the workout of my son and how much he throws at gamespeed velocity.

Your point about the catcher is an important and relevent topic to this thread. It brings up my point exactly-

Catchers throw a lot- more than anyone else in a game. The key here though is that they do not throw more high velocity throws than anyone else- that is what the pitcher does. I have been to many pro baseball and college games and rarly see the catcher ever throw over 80 mph except for his throw downs to second inbetween innings and trying to catch baserunners leading off too far or trying to steal. I have seen catchers light up the radar gun throwing down to second with throws reaching near mid 90 mph. But they do not throw that hard over a sustained period as does the pitcher who may throw upwards of 50-70 pitches in the mid 90's in a game. Catchers never do that in a week!

Don't misunderstand me. I am against throwing max velocity too much and overusing the arm. I know too well that overuse from too many fastaballs in a short period of time without recovery time is extremely harmful on arms, especially youth arms. that is why our pitchers are limited with lower pitch counts with recovery time inbetween. Like I said earlier, the total pitch counts for our pitchers in a week accumalitive including bullpens seldom go over the 125 mark.

As for how much catchers throw- this is what I am saying about son. he throws a lot to keep his arm and body conditioned for throwing, especially for pitching. Up to a certain velocity average, any thrower can throw almost unlimited without arm pain and fatigue issues. It is what i call the threshhold to injury velocity that you have to really start paying attention on. For instance- on my son he can throw in reps of 20-30 minutes almost continuously throughout the day at an under-threshold velocity of 40-60 mph. I have literally watched him throw in this velocity range on a Saturday off and on all day long without him ever complaining of any arm pain. In fact he says it feels good when he throws like that. I have never actually counted how many throws he actually makes at this velocity on the days where he does this but I would imagine that he gets somewhere up around 500-1000 throws a day sometimes. He could do that all day long literally!

But what he can't do due to the threshold is throw above 60mph and sustain that without arm or body pain and fatigue. He could probably throw about 50-100 in a day without too much discomfort- the normal discomfort and feeling of fatigue any pitcher would face.

If you asked any pitcher after warming up to go out and throw at peak velocity until their arm first started getting sore, you would probably never even reach 30 pitches. This is because they are over the threshold and they deplete their muscle energy too quickly and micro tears start to develop in their arms which needs recovery and healing time. My philosophy is to find that point where they can throw at the threshold and then stop before they begin the damage cycle. If their arm is conditioned to throw a lot, then they can sustatin the threshold longer before damage sets starting in. It's really all about finding that cruise velocity in games where they can get the most out of their arm at near peak velocity, sometimes even peaking, but without damaging their arms which in my opinion is what builds true pitching velocity.

There of coarse has to be some risk involved like was mentioned by another brother, but there also has to be a well understanding of when to shut the arm down and when not to. Arm pain is almost always the notifier. When kids have no pain- green light to throw. When they start to have arm pain, then caution and limiting throwing.
coach2709coach270910,000+ posts
quote:
If my son has never used LT in his work on gaining velocity, then where is the velocity being learned? My guess it is from the mound because that is the only time when he throws with added affort over any sustainable timeframe. This tells me that velocity is learned by son from the mound. Not every 13 year old, or grown-up for that matter can pick up a baseball and throw 70 mph and yet son can. Velocity is a learned process that takes a lot of time to develop and learn how to do it right.


You are leaving out a very big (and proven) what if - what if your son did LT like others? Maybe he would be throwing even harder. Obviously we can't say because he's not doing it but over the many, many years of baseball LT has been proven to be successful in increasing velocity.

You have come up with something different and so far there has been quantifiable success with it. That's great but it's not the norm and that is where you are going to find the resistance. You are not out there like Yardbird is and his buffet style Marshall mechanics but what you are advocating is not what everyone will believe in.

The people posting "against" you are just hoping that your pitchers aren't in danger of being overused. I will never do what you're doing and I doubt anyone ever will but please understand that LT is a very successful way of building velocity. You might not be making the gains you could be making with LT.
Next

Add Reply

Post
High Level Throwing

Driveline Baseball

Membership Required

We're sorry. You must be signed in to continue. Sign In or Register
×
Are you sure you want to remove from your Block List?
×
Loading...
×
When you block a person, they can no longer invite you to a private message or post to your profile wall. Replies and comments they make will be collapsed/hidden by default. Finally, you'll never receive email notifications about content they create or likes they designate for your content.
Note: if you proceed, you will no longer be following .
×
Advanced Search
Advanced Search
Link copied to your clipboard.
×