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How did MLB get by without long toss for over 100 years?
Who says they did? For as long as there has been little boys, there have been competitions with rocks or balls to see who could throw the furthest.
Baseball has been slow to just about everything, to include weight conditioning. It's about time some are beginning to pull their heads out of the sand, or clay. For the most part, they are still clueless regarding arm injuries believing it's just "part of the game and thus inevitable." Morons ....
Baseball has been slow to just about everything, to include weight conditioning. It's about time some are beginning to pull their heads out of the sand, or clay. For the most part, they are still clueless regarding arm injuries believing it's just "part of the game and thus inevitable." Morons ....
Great article. Should help sell Jaeger drill videos and bands. They should have also mentioned the "pull down" throws that follow the 300 foot long tosses. The pull downs help your velocity and get you back to throwing "downhill" as opposed to the "uphill" throwing that long toss requires. I agree with the esteemed blogger "TRHIT" that "kids today don't throw enough" and now you can add "kids today do not throw far enough" too!
Initech- I'm glad you shared this link. I have been working with Alan directly gathering information from this year's top 30 pitching prospects according to Baseball America about their long toss habits and beliefs. The results thus far from the players have been outstanding. Not only are almost all of them advocates of long toss, but they're all very interested in learning more about the process and trying to spread the word about it's benefits. Trevor Bauer, who is featured in the article, has also been a big voice behind the growth of the actions...spreading the word among those players as well.
Long toss debates are plentiful and filled with outstanding information. However, results don't lie.
FWIW, Alan Jaeger is one of the most passionate and brilliant minds in the game in my opinion. He strives for perfection in his work and deserves all the attention- both positive (like this article) and negative (like those opposed to long toss) he gets. I think the great thing about Alan is the fact that he's completely receptive and open to all opinions...whether they are the same as his or not...he just looks to learn and develop.
Long toss debates are plentiful and filled with outstanding information. However, results don't lie.
FWIW, Alan Jaeger is one of the most passionate and brilliant minds in the game in my opinion. He strives for perfection in his work and deserves all the attention- both positive (like this article) and negative (like those opposed to long toss) he gets. I think the great thing about Alan is the fact that he's completely receptive and open to all opinions...whether they are the same as his or not...he just looks to learn and develop.
Josh, that's great that you are involved in helping with that research, which is important IMO.
I have a question that maybe you can answer. While I'd count myself in as a believer in long toss, I have always wondered about any added benefit from throwing what I would call "super-long toss." Dr. Fleisig's comment in this article that "research shows throwing mechanics break down and the torque on the elbow and shoulder increase significantly beyond about 180 feet" only adds to my curiousity on that subject. What does Mr. Jaeger say is the added benefit of throwing long toss beyond 180 feet or so? Is it velocity? Is that benefit completely lost (or overwhelmed by the risks) at the point where mechanics break down?
I'm not trying to take a position here - just curious about something I don't know a lot about.
I have a question that maybe you can answer. While I'd count myself in as a believer in long toss, I have always wondered about any added benefit from throwing what I would call "super-long toss." Dr. Fleisig's comment in this article that "research shows throwing mechanics break down and the torque on the elbow and shoulder increase significantly beyond about 180 feet" only adds to my curiousity on that subject. What does Mr. Jaeger say is the added benefit of throwing long toss beyond 180 feet or so? Is it velocity? Is that benefit completely lost (or overwhelmed by the risks) at the point where mechanics break down?
I'm not trying to take a position here - just curious about something I don't know a lot about.
Hey EdgarFan- Good question. Alan would be the first person to tell you that long toss is not the absolute most beneficial aspect of a pitcher's success and increased velocity. Mechanics are, by far, the #1 factor in this. Translating that into a long toss session, remaining mechanically sound throughout throwing is crucial in developing greater arm strength in a healthy manner. Alan considers himself to be a spiritual person, and he is very interested in making sure that the mind and the body are attached and on the same page. Mechanics can only be taught to a certain extent...it is then up to the individual's mental consistency to repeat those mechanics successfully.
I was EXTREMELY hesitant when I first saw the Trevor Bauer video that's somewhat blown up on YouTube of him throwing something like 360 feet (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9w3xwYIx17s). I didn't really understand how it could possibly be beneficial to seemingly lob the ball until you get out to extreme distances, and then proceed to rifle the ball back to your partner as you go through the pulldown phase. It looked unorthodox, but my interest increased when Nolan Ryan supported it and brought Alan in to work with the Rangers. While the scientific results vary, there are several points that need to be taken into consideration when discussing the pros and cons of each practice.
Wes Pennington, an ASMI researcher based at their facilities in Birmingham, stated that: "...while elbow varus torque was seen to increase with distance, compressive forces generated at the elbow and shoulder were measured to be less in long distance flat throws. It was pointed out how this ‘may be related to the low incidence of throwing injuries in non-pitchers."
Here is a good article that was written by Alan that kind of outlines his philosophies:
Part 1: http://www.webball.com/cms/page4580.cfm
Part 2: http://www.webball.com/cms/page4581.cfm
Part 3: http://www.webball.com/cms/page4582.cfm
Once again, when I first read the article above, I was wary of the mention of Joel Zumaya, who has had a long history of arm troubles. While I haven't asked Alan directly, I'd venture to say that he would agree that Zumaya had several mechanical flaws- and that is something that I think most here would agree with as well.
Here's one more quote I'd like to share, from Tom House: "Throw, throw, and throw with short, medium, and long toss to tolerance. Distance magnifies mechanical mistakes and increases risk of injury due to poor strength, low endurance, or muscle failure. Tolerance means athletes should throw at distances where perfect mechanics and functional strength and endurance match up. (A small, weak athlete with poor mechanics should throw at shorter distances; an athlete in muscle failure from a previous outing should throw only at a distance where stiffness or soreness doesn’t affect mechanics.)"
Collectively, whether you are a long toss advocate or not, I don't think anyone would argue that mechanics...CONSISTENT mechanics...are absolutely crucial for any throwing program to translate into success.
Alan isn't perfect, and he definitely doesn't preach that he is, but his philosophies and ideals are things that I believe could be beneficial to those that buy into it. It's a theory, much like anything else in the game. But it's marketable and it's had success.
If you'd like, I can ask Alan if I can give you his email address so you can ask him directly. He's almost always open to speaking with people and discussing almost anything in baseball. He's a passionate fan before anything else, just like all of us.
I was EXTREMELY hesitant when I first saw the Trevor Bauer video that's somewhat blown up on YouTube of him throwing something like 360 feet (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9w3xwYIx17s). I didn't really understand how it could possibly be beneficial to seemingly lob the ball until you get out to extreme distances, and then proceed to rifle the ball back to your partner as you go through the pulldown phase. It looked unorthodox, but my interest increased when Nolan Ryan supported it and brought Alan in to work with the Rangers. While the scientific results vary, there are several points that need to be taken into consideration when discussing the pros and cons of each practice.
Wes Pennington, an ASMI researcher based at their facilities in Birmingham, stated that: "...while elbow varus torque was seen to increase with distance, compressive forces generated at the elbow and shoulder were measured to be less in long distance flat throws. It was pointed out how this ‘may be related to the low incidence of throwing injuries in non-pitchers."
Here is a good article that was written by Alan that kind of outlines his philosophies:
Part 1: http://www.webball.com/cms/page4580.cfm
Part 2: http://www.webball.com/cms/page4581.cfm
Part 3: http://www.webball.com/cms/page4582.cfm
Once again, when I first read the article above, I was wary of the mention of Joel Zumaya, who has had a long history of arm troubles. While I haven't asked Alan directly, I'd venture to say that he would agree that Zumaya had several mechanical flaws- and that is something that I think most here would agree with as well.
Here's one more quote I'd like to share, from Tom House: "Throw, throw, and throw with short, medium, and long toss to tolerance. Distance magnifies mechanical mistakes and increases risk of injury due to poor strength, low endurance, or muscle failure. Tolerance means athletes should throw at distances where perfect mechanics and functional strength and endurance match up. (A small, weak athlete with poor mechanics should throw at shorter distances; an athlete in muscle failure from a previous outing should throw only at a distance where stiffness or soreness doesn’t affect mechanics.)"
Collectively, whether you are a long toss advocate or not, I don't think anyone would argue that mechanics...CONSISTENT mechanics...are absolutely crucial for any throwing program to translate into success.
Alan isn't perfect, and he definitely doesn't preach that he is, but his philosophies and ideals are things that I believe could be beneficial to those that buy into it. It's a theory, much like anything else in the game. But it's marketable and it's had success.
If you'd like, I can ask Alan if I can give you his email address so you can ask him directly. He's almost always open to speaking with people and discussing almost anything in baseball. He's a passionate fan before anything else, just like all of us.
Just to double up on my previous post, for those who don't know, we interviewed Alan Jaeger for the HSBBWeb Radio Show back in December: http://www.blogtalkradio.com/c...11/12/05/alan-jaeger
Josh,
Thanks so much for the in-depth reply. Your posts are always thoughtful and this is no exception.
I will read the webball articles, and yes, I wouldn't mind corresponding directly with Mr. Jaeger if he is willing. My son is a 2015 RHP, SS/3B and catcher (not sure how long he will be able to pitch and catch) so a good strong arm and good throwing mechanics are critical to the positions he plays. To this point he hasn't really embarked on a true long-toss program, and I am interested in getting him on one.
From what you have written, the answer to my question seems to be exactly what I would have expected - "it depends." Everybody is so different that some will only be able to maintain mechanics (which I love that you emphasize and re-emphasize) to 150 or 180 feet, and some (freaks) will be able to go out to 300 feet or beyond. It seems the key to me is to know your own arm and mechanics, and "listen" to how it feels when you throw.
Thanks again for your response.
Thanks so much for the in-depth reply. Your posts are always thoughtful and this is no exception.
I will read the webball articles, and yes, I wouldn't mind corresponding directly with Mr. Jaeger if he is willing. My son is a 2015 RHP, SS/3B and catcher (not sure how long he will be able to pitch and catch) so a good strong arm and good throwing mechanics are critical to the positions he plays. To this point he hasn't really embarked on a true long-toss program, and I am interested in getting him on one.
From what you have written, the answer to my question seems to be exactly what I would have expected - "it depends." Everybody is so different that some will only be able to maintain mechanics (which I love that you emphasize and re-emphasize) to 150 or 180 feet, and some (freaks) will be able to go out to 300 feet or beyond. It seems the key to me is to know your own arm and mechanics, and "listen" to how it feels when you throw.
Thanks again for your response.
EdgarFan- It definitely depends on the individual. Not everyone out there is going to get on a football field and throw it through the goal posts like Trevor was able to. But in my opinion, and what is echoed by Alan, is that long toss is effective for anyone if done properly.
What can't be lost in this entire scenario as well is conditioning. It is hugely important to make sure that your entire body is adequately prepared for the stress of long tossing- just like it needs to be adequately prepared for pitching. You need to walk before you can jog, and jog before you can sprint. It won't happen overnight, but if done properly, it will happen.
I will shoot you a PM with Alan's email address. Be forewarned that he is a night person (and a west coast guy like you)...I've been woken up by text messages at 3 AM EST on a Tuesday just by him having some sort of epiphany or thought about what we were previously talking about. Its sometimes frustrating, but I just chuckle and respond. Can't argue with the man haha.
Perry Husband, Ron Wolforth and Tom House are also great resources that are foremost authorities in this field. I'd even encourage you to read up on D-i-c-k Mills's thoughts...he is very much opposed to Alan's philosophies. I probably have read more Mills content than Alan actually. Despite how great Alan has been to me and how good his reputation is, I still want to be able to formulate my own opinion for my own body. And the only way to do that is research.
What can't be lost in this entire scenario as well is conditioning. It is hugely important to make sure that your entire body is adequately prepared for the stress of long tossing- just like it needs to be adequately prepared for pitching. You need to walk before you can jog, and jog before you can sprint. It won't happen overnight, but if done properly, it will happen.
I will shoot you a PM with Alan's email address. Be forewarned that he is a night person (and a west coast guy like you)...I've been woken up by text messages at 3 AM EST on a Tuesday just by him having some sort of epiphany or thought about what we were previously talking about. Its sometimes frustrating, but I just chuckle and respond. Can't argue with the man haha.
Perry Husband, Ron Wolforth and Tom House are also great resources that are foremost authorities in this field. I'd even encourage you to read up on D-i-c-k Mills's thoughts...he is very much opposed to Alan's philosophies. I probably have read more Mills content than Alan actually. Despite how great Alan has been to me and how good his reputation is, I still want to be able to formulate my own opinion for my own body. And the only way to do that is research.
quote:Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
How did MLB get by without long toss for over 100 years?
Your right it did quite nicely, however the dynamics and workout routines have changed significantly. It is ridicules how many kids are throwing in the 90’s now days. How many of those guys were doing Yoga also? LOL.
…..most were heading out to the bar after the game and throwing back a few beers and having a smoke.
quote:…..most were heading out to the bar after the game and throwing back a few beers and having a smoke.
Now that's a workout routine I can adhere to.
Long toss is not for everyone. The throwing mechanics of a catcher, for example, don't seem consistent with doing long toss, IMHO.
I've been an advocate of long-toss for many years, but anyone embarking on such a program should realize it is something a player needs to do on a consistent basis year-round to get any benefit.
As I've said before, it reinforces arm slot, inreases arm speed and I believe helps keep the arm injury-free.
Now that my son has been doing it for 10+ years, at his level, he has modified the throwing routine to not do long-toss before starts. Not because it hurts the release point as some say but because he noticed his adrenaline level was too high in the first inning from all that throwing.
I've been an advocate of long-toss for many years, but anyone embarking on such a program should realize it is something a player needs to do on a consistent basis year-round to get any benefit.
As I've said before, it reinforces arm slot, inreases arm speed and I believe helps keep the arm injury-free.
Now that my son has been doing it for 10+ years, at his level, he has modified the throwing routine to not do long-toss before starts. Not because it hurts the release point as some say but because he noticed his adrenaline level was too high in the first inning from all that throwing.
I post very little on this forum but read and learn alot from the wealth of knowledge of the contributors. My son is a young (14yrs old) 2015 on his schools varsity. What he is capable of is freakish and I'll leave it at that. Most of it is God given talent, but what isn't, must be contributed to his work ethic and routine.
This subject is one that is very important to the both of us. All I can do is relate our experiences with long toss. More importantly extreme (by some standards) long toss.
Along with an age appropriate rigorous core workout routine, he has been on an extreme long toss program for the last 4 years. He can throw effortlessly from 80yds and most days goes out to 95-100yds. He understands it's not a contest to see how far he can throw and there are days he wants to cut it off at 70-75yds. I leave it totally up to him. He's the one who must understand his body.
Other than the typical soreness from pitching, he has never had any arm problems from pitching. I contribute much of that to this routine. I realize with the stress he puts on his body that some sort of injury, no matter how minor or severe is inevitable. All we can do is try to lessen the risk by putting a protective system around him (ie. mechanics, core work and long toss).
Now this year. Entering his first year of high school baseball, the school had a very good fall throwing program. During the fall workouts, the pitchers extremed long tossed three times a week along with bullpens and intersquads. They had a good core work routine and lifted pitching appropriate sets twice a week. Their program paralleled what he was already accustom too. We were very happy.
Now, once the season got under way in late Feb., it came to an abrupt halt. Because of the early season schedule, it was difficult if not impossible for him to continue it on his own. He was not happy! He never knew when he might pitch and there wasn't a set pitching rotation or schedule and they were doing very little throwing in practice. As the season wore on, he complained his arm didn't feel as lively and it appeared he had lost some velocity.
About 4 weeks ago, once we knew a schedule, we were able to get back to a resemblance of the routine to which he was accustom. It's amazing in that time how much more lively his ball has become, but he also says this is the best his arm has felt all year.
He needs to take ownership with his coach and let him know what his routine does for him. That is a tough lesson for a freshman to understand.
I've read and listened to most the pros and cons on long toss and will continue to try and learn as much as I can. All I can relate to is this one individual and the health and growth I've seen from this program. It's been amazing!
Sorry so long....
This subject is one that is very important to the both of us. All I can do is relate our experiences with long toss. More importantly extreme (by some standards) long toss.
Along with an age appropriate rigorous core workout routine, he has been on an extreme long toss program for the last 4 years. He can throw effortlessly from 80yds and most days goes out to 95-100yds. He understands it's not a contest to see how far he can throw and there are days he wants to cut it off at 70-75yds. I leave it totally up to him. He's the one who must understand his body.
Other than the typical soreness from pitching, he has never had any arm problems from pitching. I contribute much of that to this routine. I realize with the stress he puts on his body that some sort of injury, no matter how minor or severe is inevitable. All we can do is try to lessen the risk by putting a protective system around him (ie. mechanics, core work and long toss).
Now this year. Entering his first year of high school baseball, the school had a very good fall throwing program. During the fall workouts, the pitchers extremed long tossed three times a week along with bullpens and intersquads. They had a good core work routine and lifted pitching appropriate sets twice a week. Their program paralleled what he was already accustom too. We were very happy.
Now, once the season got under way in late Feb., it came to an abrupt halt. Because of the early season schedule, it was difficult if not impossible for him to continue it on his own. He was not happy! He never knew when he might pitch and there wasn't a set pitching rotation or schedule and they were doing very little throwing in practice. As the season wore on, he complained his arm didn't feel as lively and it appeared he had lost some velocity.
About 4 weeks ago, once we knew a schedule, we were able to get back to a resemblance of the routine to which he was accustom. It's amazing in that time how much more lively his ball has become, but he also says this is the best his arm has felt all year.
He needs to take ownership with his coach and let him know what his routine does for him. That is a tough lesson for a freshman to understand.
I've read and listened to most the pros and cons on long toss and will continue to try and learn as much as I can. All I can relate to is this one individual and the health and growth I've seen from this program. It's been amazing!
Sorry so long....
It's been known (since the Civil War), those that throw the ball the longest, have the higher velocity.
More coverage in Sports Illustrated. Article argues about 15 MLB teams are comfortable with long toss being used.
Game's top two pitching prospects may be igniting a revolution
Game's top two pitching prospects may be igniting a revolution
When any of our pitchers get an arm injury, they are eventually referred to the clinic that cares for the AAA affiliate of the Cardinals as well as the Memphis Grizzlies and U of Memphis Tigers. Once they are in charge of a pitcher, they cut out long toss entirely. Along with "this is why we do it" type of explanation, they claim that in-house research has been very favorable in terms of the reduction of injury in pitchers. I will never throw over 180 feet again, if I am to heal up in the first place.
quote:Originally posted by JPontiac:
When any of our pitchers get an arm injury, they are eventually referred to the clinic that cares for the AAA affiliate of the Cardinals as well as the Memphis Grizzlies and U of Memphis Tigers. Once they are in charge of a pitcher, they cut out long toss entirely. Along with "this is why we do it" type of explanation, they claim that in-house research has been very favorable in terms of the reduction of injury in pitchers. I will never throw over 180 feet again, if I am to heal up in the first place.
Does this clinic cut out long toss during the recovery of injuries or recommend never to long toss again?
Never to long toss again. They believe it contributes to the injuries in the first place. The only reason they "allow" healthy players to long toss is because they are not this clinic's clients until they are hurt.
quote:Never to long toss again. They believe it contributes to the injuries in the first place. The only reason they "allow" healthy players to long toss is because they are not this clinic's clients until they are hurt.
(climbing on soapbox)
Sounds to me like somebody is failing. And it's a major issue that I see especially in the physical therapy world. PT, in my opinion, is much too reactive rather than proactive. If the PTs and this particular clinic believe so strongly about long toss, then I feel like they need to be having a sit-down meeting with the medical staff at the respective institutions. They need to work together as a "sports medicine team" to not only rehab injuries but prevent them as well.
(/climbing off soapbox)
quote:Originally posted by JPontiac:
Never to long toss again. They believe it contributes to the injuries in the first place. The only reason they "allow" healthy players to long toss is because they are not this clinic's clients until they are hurt.
What is this clinic's name and where is it located? I want to make sure that my son never goes there.
bostonbulldogbaseball- I would urge you to perhaps reach out to the people that run the clinic JPontiac is referring to and gather information before coming to a conclusion such as that. While I am a proponent of long toss, I make sure to get opinions from both ends of the spectrum in order to properly delineate between appropriate and inappropriate for me.
Dr. Glenn Fleisig of ASMI has some information out on long toss that could be beneficial. It was published in the Journal of Orthopaedic & Sports Physical Therapy (known as JOSPT) in May of 2011 and is entitled "Biomechanical Comparison of Baseball Pitching and Long-Toss: Implications for Training and Rehabilitation". While he can't share the complete study publicly because of copyright laws, I believe he would be willing to share it with you, or anyone else, if you were to email him privately. I do know the abstract is available as a summarization online for free. It is an outstanding example of the pros and cons of the practice through a scientific study run by the people who are, in my opinion, the best in the business.
While I don't necessarily agree with the initial description of the clinical habits that JPontiac described, I would certainly look to get more information from their side before coming to a conclusion. On top of the fact that I believe research is crucial in making the right decision for yourself (or your son), I know for a fact that JPontiac is a very well thought out individual who would not buy into something without being provided with adequate information to do so.
Dr. Glenn Fleisig of ASMI has some information out on long toss that could be beneficial. It was published in the Journal of Orthopaedic & Sports Physical Therapy (known as JOSPT) in May of 2011 and is entitled "Biomechanical Comparison of Baseball Pitching and Long-Toss: Implications for Training and Rehabilitation". While he can't share the complete study publicly because of copyright laws, I believe he would be willing to share it with you, or anyone else, if you were to email him privately. I do know the abstract is available as a summarization online for free. It is an outstanding example of the pros and cons of the practice through a scientific study run by the people who are, in my opinion, the best in the business.
While I don't necessarily agree with the initial description of the clinical habits that JPontiac described, I would certainly look to get more information from their side before coming to a conclusion. On top of the fact that I believe research is crucial in making the right decision for yourself (or your son), I know for a fact that JPontiac is a very well thought out individual who would not buy into something without being provided with adequate information to do so.
It's something that isn't well studied and would be somewhat difficult to study. I am not big on jumping die hard on the side of something that cannot be empirically proven. I also believe that if ain't broke, don't fix it! In my case, something is broke and I am adjusting my program in hopes to fix it 
Thinking about the debate in general leaves me feeling just as conflicted when I hear all sides -- I am, of course, going to go along with the medical advice I've been given since that is what my school's insurance is paying for! I was never a huge fan of making such big changes to the launch angle so to speak, and I found it harder to do with my arm angle lower.
For anyone that wants to long toss, I don't think there is any risk involved if you maintain your mechanics on all throws (except the necessary changes in your core/legs to alter your launch angle). If you consistently fail mechanically on long distance throws, perhaps you should reconsider your program or your focus. My experience and intuition tells me that the lower the arm angle, the more difficult the venture of long tossing will be, but others may disagree.
I am not of the school that pitchers should only be throwing 60 feet, though. That would be one interesting experiment!
Thinking about the debate in general leaves me feeling just as conflicted when I hear all sides -- I am, of course, going to go along with the medical advice I've been given since that is what my school's insurance is paying for!
I was never a huge fan of making such big changes to the launch angle so to speak, and I found it harder to do with my arm angle lower. For anyone that wants to long toss, I don't think there is any risk involved if you maintain your mechanics on all throws (except the necessary changes in your core/legs to alter your launch angle). If you consistently fail mechanically on long distance throws, perhaps you should reconsider your program or your focus. My experience and intuition tells me that the lower the arm angle, the more difficult the venture of long tossing will be, but others may disagree.
I am not of the school that pitchers should only be throwing 60 feet, though. That would be one interesting experiment!
quote:Originally posted by JPontiac:
For anyone that wants to long toss, I don't think there is any risk involved if you maintain your mechanics on all throws (except the necessary changes in your core/legs to alter your launch angle). If you consistently fail mechanically on long distance throws, perhaps you should reconsider your program or your focus. My experience and intuition tells me that the lower the arm angle, the more difficult the venture of long tossing will be, but others may disagree.
What would be interesting would be a study that analyzes different arm angles, like you speak of...
Son's ex-teammate from Babe Ruth was small for age, relied on curve balls. He is in college now doing long toss. Velocity up to low 90s, hitting 95. Has scouts coming to all his starts. So far so good as his arm is made of rubber. I would never have expected him to be scouted, but MLB likes his speed and control.
I'd be careful about citing the ASMI studies on long toss. They measured the velocities for the high arc, maximum effort long toss incorrectly and have admitted as much. I don't know one way or the other if it invalidates their conclusions. It certainly diminishes their claims that throwing on a line is less stressful given that the actual velocities for max distance long toss were most likely several MPH faster than they measured. Higher velocities = higher loads of course.
ASMI needs to go back and do the max distance long toss part of their study correctly and then try to draw the appropriate conclusions whatever those might be.
ASMI needs to go back and do the max distance long toss part of their study correctly and then try to draw the appropriate conclusions whatever those might be.
The search for the Holy Grail continues. 
Let us hear the words from early long-tossers.
"And the Lord spake, saying, "First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin. Then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it. "
Let us hear the words from early long-tossers.
"And the Lord spake, saying, "First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin. Then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it. "
Research is kind of like stone age technology on this one. It reminds me of when son was having lower back problems from pitching and hew went to several different doctors. One doctor was sure that he just lacked core strength. Another thought it was a strain. The one we went with, opinion wise, was the one who siad that it was just tight muscles and that he needed to work harder at stretching them out before and after workouts. How would one truly know if long toss was good or bad on the arm? Even hooking up scientific measuring devices ont he ol arm isn't gonna tell much, especially in a limited setting of a few pitchers. I think it is a no-brainer that there will be higher loads and stress on an arm if one is trying harder to throw harder- DUH! What about the weight lifter? If he is ever going to lift more and get stronger he has tp place small ever increasingly more load on the arm.
Years ago I wasn't a big fan of long toss. Then 2 years ago son started using it, especially in the late summer into fall seasons. I watched him go from throwing the ball about 250 feet to now over 300 feet. I can't say whether it did or did not contribute to his velocity or arm health, but in the past two years he went from throwing in the low to mid 70's to now throwing in the low to mid 80's and he is a sophmore varsity starting pitcher. Sure, he still complains of the normal arm pain after outings- tricep and bicep pain or fatigue. But in the past two years with the 10 mph increase in velocity he has no pain whatsoever in his joints nor any chronic pain. Can I attribute it to long toss? I am certain that I can say the long toss hasn't seemed to hurt him in any way. Heck, if Nolan Ryan is on board, I am on board!
Years ago I wasn't a big fan of long toss. Then 2 years ago son started using it, especially in the late summer into fall seasons. I watched him go from throwing the ball about 250 feet to now over 300 feet. I can't say whether it did or did not contribute to his velocity or arm health, but in the past two years he went from throwing in the low to mid 70's to now throwing in the low to mid 80's and he is a sophmore varsity starting pitcher. Sure, he still complains of the normal arm pain after outings- tricep and bicep pain or fatigue. But in the past two years with the 10 mph increase in velocity he has no pain whatsoever in his joints nor any chronic pain. Can I attribute it to long toss? I am certain that I can say the long toss hasn't seemed to hurt him in any way. Heck, if Nolan Ryan is on board, I am on board!
Skylark - interesting results with your Son. You mentioned late summer into the fall for the last two years. Did your son have a regular routine, or just whenever he felt like throwing. I am going to assume you (or he) shut him down in the winter months.
quote:Originally posted by bballdad2016:
Skylark - interesting results with your Son. You mentioned late summer into the fall for the last two years. Did your son have a regular routine, or just whenever he felt like throwing. I am going to assume you (or he) shut him down in the winter months.
We would go out about every other day to throw give or take. Not many games in the fall so it really worked out well. He got to throwing it so far and I couldnt get the ball back to him that he would just take a bucket of balls and throw them to me. He doesnt throw much in the winter.
Thanks Skylark, i may have to use your bucket idea. My arm isnt what it used to be.
Thanks to the OP for posting the article link and thank goodness it's not behind a paywall. As the father of a young (8th grade) P/3B/OF, I am very interested in the conversation on training arms. And I admit I am in the bag for Bundy and Bauer and find them and their training fascinating. But while I see my son throwing longer, more consistently as he gets older, I am also intrigued by the position taken by the anti-tossers, like Dick Mills. He has some thoughts that are worth integrating. I certainly understand the emotional wariness one might have of "extreme" throwing as protecting the arm is (or should) always be paramount for S&C coaches working with throwers. Unfortunately, Mr Mills can be rather pedantic in the presentation of his opinion as exemplified in the comments to the Wall Street Journal article. And that's a turn-off.
quote:Originally posted by Skylark:quote:Originally posted by bballdad2016:
Skylark - interesting results with your Son. You mentioned late summer into the fall for the last two years. Did your son have a regular routine, or just whenever he felt like throwing. I am going to assume you (or he) shut him down in the winter months.
We would go out about every other day to throw give or take. Not many games in the fall so it really worked out well. He got to throwing it so far and I couldnt get the ball back to him that he would just take a bucket of balls and throw them to me. He doesnt throw much in the winter.
I bring a bat and just hit the balls back to my son once we get beyond 150 ft.
What does long-toss have to do with adrenaline before the game?
quote:Originally posted by Bum:
Long toss is not for everyone. The throwing mechanics of a catcher, for example, don't seem consistent with doing long toss, IMHO.
I've been an advocate of long-toss for many years, but anyone embarking on such a program should realize it is something a player needs to do on a consistent basis year-round to get any benefit.
As I've said before, it reinforces arm slot, inreases arm speed and I believe helps keep the arm injury-free.
Now that my son has been doing it for 10+ years, at his level, he has modified the throwing routine to not do long-toss before starts. Not because it hurts the release point as some say but because he noticed his adrenaline level was too high in the first inning from all that throwing.
I am no scientist that's for sure. I certainly have not conducted any fancy experiments or done studies on the subject. What I will offer in this post is simply what I have seen from being around the game my entire life. Coaching and helping players to the best of my ability based simply on what I have seen that works.
The players that throw more throw it farther. The players that can throw is longer throw it harder. The players that work harder reach closer to their full potential. The players that invest more into something get more out of it. The players that hit the most are the better hitters. The pitchers that work on their craft the most are the better pitchers.
The players that don't throw with the intent to throw hard never develop the ability to throw to their potential. The players that don't run as fast as they can in order to reach their full potential never run as fast as they can. The more ground balls you take and the more you work on your fielding fundementals the better fielder that player will become.
The players I have coached that long tossed all threw the ball farther than the ones that did not. The players I have coached that long tossed were always the players with the stronger arms. They were always the players with the most healthy arms. And they were not the kids in the dugout complaining of hanging after throwing in practice or after a game.
The players that did not long toss were the ones most likely to have arm issues. In fact the more you throw the stronger your arm becomes and the healthier arm you will have. The issue is "Throwing too much after not throwing enough."
Young players need to be taught the proper mechanics of throwing when they start out. The proper mechanics of hitting. The proper mechanics of fielding. The proper mechanics of running. This builds a base that they can work from. Then they need to continue to work hard at developing each of those skills while always holding true to the basic fundementals of each of those tasks.
If your afraid of hurting your arm by long tossing then just stop playing the game. If your afraid of getting hit by a pitch then stop hitting. If your afraid of getting hit in the face with a ground ball then stop playing. Long toss does not hurt the arm unless your mechanics of throwing are already hurting your arm. Start young kids out with the proper mechanics and then build on it. TR is right. Kids today do not throw enough. But he should have added. Kids today do not throw enough. Then they throw too much.
All I can go on is my experience. My players with the strongest arms who complained the less of soreness and had the less arm issues all long tossed. And they threw way more than the kids who did not. You can "play it safe" and never push it. Of course that player will never compete at a high level in the game. And if he does decide to push it and he has never pushed it to get there he is going to have some arm issues for sure. "Not throwing enough then trying to throw too much." It just doesn't work that way. If your afraid of going too far how do you know how far you can go? JMO
The players that throw more throw it farther. The players that can throw is longer throw it harder. The players that work harder reach closer to their full potential. The players that invest more into something get more out of it. The players that hit the most are the better hitters. The pitchers that work on their craft the most are the better pitchers.
The players that don't throw with the intent to throw hard never develop the ability to throw to their potential. The players that don't run as fast as they can in order to reach their full potential never run as fast as they can. The more ground balls you take and the more you work on your fielding fundementals the better fielder that player will become.
The players I have coached that long tossed all threw the ball farther than the ones that did not. The players I have coached that long tossed were always the players with the stronger arms. They were always the players with the most healthy arms. And they were not the kids in the dugout complaining of hanging after throwing in practice or after a game.
The players that did not long toss were the ones most likely to have arm issues. In fact the more you throw the stronger your arm becomes and the healthier arm you will have. The issue is "Throwing too much after not throwing enough."
Young players need to be taught the proper mechanics of throwing when they start out. The proper mechanics of hitting. The proper mechanics of fielding. The proper mechanics of running. This builds a base that they can work from. Then they need to continue to work hard at developing each of those skills while always holding true to the basic fundementals of each of those tasks.
If your afraid of hurting your arm by long tossing then just stop playing the game. If your afraid of getting hit by a pitch then stop hitting. If your afraid of getting hit in the face with a ground ball then stop playing. Long toss does not hurt the arm unless your mechanics of throwing are already hurting your arm. Start young kids out with the proper mechanics and then build on it. TR is right. Kids today do not throw enough. But he should have added. Kids today do not throw enough. Then they throw too much.
All I can go on is my experience. My players with the strongest arms who complained the less of soreness and had the less arm issues all long tossed. And they threw way more than the kids who did not. You can "play it safe" and never push it. Of course that player will never compete at a high level in the game. And if he does decide to push it and he has never pushed it to get there he is going to have some arm issues for sure. "Not throwing enough then trying to throw too much." It just doesn't work that way. If your afraid of going too far how do you know how far you can go? JMO
JH, you have a PM
Coach May, That was a GREAT post.
quote:Originally posted by Goin_yard:
Coach May, That was a GREAT post.
LOL what a surprise!
CBMDad- Back at you
Coach May,
I love you man, but how did HS baseball survive before the recent miracle cure of long toss?
I love you man, but how did HS baseball survive before the recent miracle cure of long toss?
Sultan- Baseball players long tossed long before all of the recent studies. I've heard people of older generations say things like, "we just went out and we threw. I don't know how far or for how long but we didn't care it was fun." Limiting the arm was a recent trend in the last few decades that has proven to be disastrous biomechanically. Long toss is definitely not a new thing, just a hot topic.