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159 replies

Long toss vs. actual pitching velocity

TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by Low Finish:
No, I want several pitches to be thrown from each slot. Good pitchers should be able to throw several pitches from each arm slot (but then again, I was always taught the Johnny Sain method of pitching)


I am not sure what you are saying, is it that a pitcher should use different angles? There are 4 angles (slots), overhand, high 3/4, low 3/4 and sidearm.

You are saying that a good pitcher should be using all of the above? How can that be?
Low FinishLow Finish500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
quote:
Originally posted by Low Finish:
No, I want several pitches to be thrown from each slot. Good pitchers should be able to throw several pitches from each arm slot (but then again, I was always taught the Johnny Sain method of pitching)


I am not sure what you are saying, is it that a pitcher should use different angles? There are 4 angles (slots), overhand, high 3/4, low 3/4 and sidearm.

You are saying that a good pitcher should be using all of the above? How can that be?


I believe that a pitcher should be able to release several pitches from different arm slots. For example, I'm a right hander who usually throws what would be considered overhand. My curve breaks more 12-6 when I throw overhand. My fastball drops more.

When I drop my arm down to low 3/4, my fastball is a little flatter, but it appears to be coming directly at the batter. My curve breaks more 2-8 than 12-6 or 1-7. If I have 3 pitches, but two arm slots to throw them from, I have 6 pitches (according to Ted Williams).
BumBum1,000+ posts
When my son was 16 he was trying to choose a travel team. The head coach of one team suggested to him he throw from three or four different arm slots.

That was the last time I let my son talk to that coach.

There may be some that can do it, but who? Most who can are side-armers. How many slots do the overwhelming majority of MLB pitchers throw from? One.

The reason is deception and a repeatable delivery. If you can throw 3-4 pitches and they all look like a fastball you're money in the bank.
Low FinishLow Finish500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Bum:
When my son was 16 he was trying to choose a travel team. The head coach of one team suggested to him he throw from three or four different arm slots.

That was the last time I let my son talk to that coach.

There may be some that can do it, but who? Most who can are side-armers. How many slots do the overwhelming majority of MLB pitchers throw from? One.

The reason is deception and a repeatable delivery. If you can throw 3-4 pitches and they all look like a fastball you're money in the bank.


Ever hear of Johnny Sain? He threw from several arm slots.

So did Satchel Paige (he only pitched what, 30 years)

Old-time pitchers did it. Since today's mechanical model is Roger Clemens, and he didn't do it, it isn't taught anymore.
L laflippin100+ posts
Back in 2009 I printed out the pitching staff rosters for all 30 MLB clubs and then went to gettyimages.com to view as many stills taken at or near release point as I could find for each of the ~400 active pitchers.

First, I was interested to know about how many sidearmers were pitching at that level and, second, I became interested to know how many pitchers showed clear evidence of pitching with more than one arm-slot.

The study had flaws, of course: There were photos at or near release point for only about 340 of the 415 - 420 active pitchers at the time, and in some cases there were only one or two usable photos of a given pitcher.

Nevertheless, at the time it looked as though about 10% of MLB pitchers were sidearmers, and perhaps 2% of MLB pitchers gave clear evidence of using two different arm-slots. There could be more than 2%, but I doubt if it is greatly different than that. I didn't see any evidence for pitchers with three distinct arm-slots.

Bum is right, the two-armslot guys almost always threw sidearm from one of them. Some, like Mike Meyers went submarine with their 2nd arm-slot. Others, like Bronson Arroyo went 3/4 with the "other" arm-slot.

It looked like Randy Johnson went side-arm when he threw the slider, low 3/4 when he threw the FB.

Ultimately, I personally agree with Bum...if a pitcher can command several pitches from one armslot/release point he is doing very well and should continue to refine that. Simple trigonometry shows how shockingly difficult it is for a pitcher to control the strike zone from just one "repeatable" release point.

I would never try to talk a young pitcher out of experimenting with his delivery, but on the other hand I wouldn't try to talk anyone into adopting "multiple arm-slots" either. It doesn't look like very many pitchers can control two different arm-slots, much less three.
Last edited by laflippin
J jdfromfla100+ posts
I think that it is true that single arm slot is the vast majority of mlb pitching, I'd postulate that, "if" you are a major leaguer who "regularly" change slots, you would be from latin America...ala Henandez cousins El Duque and Livan and Pedro..I think within their training experience, they were allowed to gain competance from differing arm slots..like Juan Marischall, Americans aren't allowed to vary in that way once they begin serious MLB runs...so by necessity and lack of conditioning "outside" of their "envelope", if they change they'll likely become injured...makes perfect sense.
coach2709coach270910,000+ posts
There are guys who throw from multiple arm slots with success because there will always be exceptions to every rule. They have this natural ability to be able to do things that most people cannot do. But you end up playing with fire when you try to turn what the exceptions can do into a rule.

Today our kicker was trying to connect on a 35 yard field goal in practice. He has the leg to do it but he was off today and the guy who coaches kickers was telling him something he was doing wrong. The kid was trying to say he couldn't do that and what he did would work. I finally heard enough of this and said "you've missed the last 5 attempts and aren't close. 10,000 kickers all over the nation do it the way coach is trying to tell you how to do it with success. You're obviously not the exception to the rule so do it the way he wants." He did and then made the next three.

Just because somebody can do something doesn't mean everyone can.
N NDD100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Coach_May:
Long toss is for baseball players. The fact is the kids who are the best at long toss have the best arms. When your guys are on the field long tossing your best players will be long tossing together. They will be the ones with the best arms. And the guys that can throw to each other. The players that take the time to work on a consistent long toss program are the same guys that take the time to work harder in the cage. Take the time to work harder at the game. I don't know what others experience is with long toss outside of their own kids experience. But from my experience the players that long toss on a consistent basis simply have stronger arms than those that do not and have not. In fact its not even close. But that is just my experience with players over many years. If your experience leads you to see something different fine.


I've got three that have been working on it for about a month now. They were doing it incorrectly so I had them watch the little 5 minute Jaeger video promotion. It worked. They are really getting in to it (bit of competition not too much) and they have added about 90 feet from when they started.

I was watching them today, relaxed, talking baseball playoffs, but working. What impressed me is how much their mechanics are smoothing out from it.

It was nice to see.
Low FinishLow Finish500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
You can use pitchf/x for this info, if a pitcher has multiple angles it will show up in his release.

Low,
What "used to be" didn't always mean it was better.


Disagree. Bob Gibson was better than Lincecum. Feller was better than Chapman. Hitting was better before Charley Lau and his nonsense theories came along. The game was different. The zone was larger, and the hitters had more space to cover.

Hitters had to think, and so did pitchers. It wasn't whoever has the best "stuff" or the best whatever wins. It was a cerebral game, and it took intelligence to know how to play. Read The Glory of Our Times if you haven't.
N NDD100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Low Finish:


Disagree. Bob Gibson was better than Lincecum. Feller was better than Chapman. Hitting was better before Charley Lau and his nonsense theories came along. The game was different. The zone was larger, and the hitters had more space to cover.

Hitters had to think, and so did pitchers. It wasn't whoever has the best "stuff" or the best whatever wins. It was a cerebral game, and it took intelligence to know how to play. Read The Glory of Our Times if you haven't.
You saw Bob Gibson and Bob Feller pitch?

That post is self-contradictory.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by Low Finish:
Hitters had to think, and so did pitchers.


They don't do that now?

Gibson helps out in spring training for STL, it was a humbling expereince for son to sit in the dugout with him. These are the great players of the past that inspire young players, but who can or cannot say whether they or anyone else would be the same pitcher or hitter today that they were during that era?
Last edited by TPM
Low FinishLow Finish500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
quote:
Originally posted by Low Finish:
Hitters had to think, and so did pitchers.


They don't do that now?

Gibson helps out in spring training for STL, it was a humbling expereince for son to sit in the dugout with him. These are the great players of the past that inspire young players, but who can or cannot say whether they or anyone else would be the same pitcher or hitter today that they were during that era?


It's not needed as much. In the old days, batters covered a strike zone from their armpits to the bottom of the knee caps. You had to anticipate where the ball was going to come in. We tell hitters today "Don't guess", and many of them don't hit very well.

There are some players who clearly do think out there, and I think they're the better players in the league. Gibson and Feller threw off 15 inch mounds (for the majority of Gibson's career, and Feller always threw off a 15 inch mound). The benefit to this was that high strikes dropped more, and low strikes dropped a lot more.

It's just like the push/pull off of the rubber argument. Good hitters push with their core muscles to move off of the ground. Good pitchers push with their core muscles to move off of the rubber.

I seem to have rambled... I think Feller and Gibson would be very good today, because they thought, rather than just pitched. I want guys who think playing for me.
N NDD100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Low Finish:

It's not needed as much. In the old days, batters covered a strike zone from their armpits to the bottom of the knee caps. You had to anticipate where the ball was going to come in. We tell hitters today "Don't guess", and many of them don't hit very well.

There are some players who clearly do think out there, and I think they're the better players in the league. Gibson and Feller threw off 15 inch mounds (for the majority of Gibson's career, and Feller always threw off a 15 inch mound). The benefit to this was that high strikes dropped more, and low strikes dropped a lot more.

It's just like the push/pull off of the rubber argument. Good hitters push with their core muscles to move off of the ground. Good pitchers push with their core muscles to move off of the rubber.

I seem to have rambled... I think Feller and Gibson would be very good today, because they thought, rather than just pitched. I want guys who think playing for me.


Feller and Gibson would be good today because they both had + fastballs and were great pitchers. I saw Gibson pitch.

They weren't guessing then and they aren't guessing now. They are eliminating potentials and making educated estimates based on trends.

There were stupid ball players back then too.

You couldn't take two taped conversations from a dugout then and now and tell the difference except for current event references and perhaps some slang terms.
Last edited by NDD
R R3DM4N1310+ posts
@wz8fvm posted:
How does long tossing distance correspond to actual pitching velocity? Its much easiler to measure distance than to have a radar gun. I know there is a program from Florida State that equates distance to velocity but I have no idea how accurate it is. Any input?
@wz8fvm posted:
How does long tossing distance correspond to actual pitching velocity? Its much easiler to measure distance than to have a radar gun. I know there is a program from Florida State that equates distance to velocity but I have no idea how accurate it is. Any input?
@wz8fvm posted:
How does long tossing distance correspond to actual pitching velocity? Its much easiler to measure distance than to have a radar gun. I know there is a program from Florida State that equates distance to velocity but I have no idea how accurate it is. Any input?

I was long tossing 330-350 in highschool... However, on the mound I struggled to get my lower half to sync up. So my fastball was 88-92mph.... Which today with pitch fx and stat cast would be 92-95mph. We used crappy speed guns in the 1990s.... And clocked "plate speed"

JucoDadJucoDad5,000+ posts

I know this is an old thread but I thought I would chime... I'd wondered why my son's long toss didn't seem to match his mound or run and gun velocity? I believe the answer was reveled at golf galaxy. The kid can hit the crap out of a golf ball (can touch 130 MPH club head speed), but needs to use a driver that reduces backspin. It seems that too much backspin creates lift that bleeds velocity and distance by fighting gravity.  I think hard throwers with high spin rates have the same issue, the backspin robs overall distance.

R ReluctantO'sFan5,000+ posts
@JucoDad posted:

I know this is an old thread but I thought I would chime... I'd wondered why my son's long toss didn't seem to match his mound or run and gun velocity? I believe the answer was reveled at golf galaxy. The kid can hit the crap out of a golf ball (can touch 130 MPH club head speed), but needs to use a driver that reduces backspin. It seems that too much backspin creates lift that bleeds velocity and distance by fighting gravity.  I think hard throwers with high spin rates have the same issue, the backspin robs overall distance.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding (wasn't a physics major), but shouldn't backspin add to the overall distance? 

A adbono10,000+ posts
@ReluctantO'sFan posted:

Maybe I'm misunderstanding (wasn't a physics major), but shouldn't backspin add to the overall distance?

Yes, it absolutely does. Backspin adds to the carry whether it’s a hit ball or a thrown ball. The reason that kids post higher velo with turn & burns (or pull downs or whatever you want to call it) is that they make better use of their lower body when making those throws. They also aren’t thinking about mechanics. We use pull downs as a measure of potential and then try to get kids to take the same athletic movement to the mound. It’s easier said than done. It’s amazing how many kids are initially taught (as young kids) a slow and methodical pitching delivery. We have to get them to unlearn that and speed everything up and use their natural athletic ability.

JucoDadJucoDad5,000+ posts

@adbono I thought this too, but I’m going to disagree with you on this one. Backspin adds loft but not carry. I think of it this way, there’s an optimal loft angle for maximum distance and that angle can be achieved by release point alone. Backspin increases loft and transfers the balls forward energy upward and reduces overall carry. It’s easier to see with golf balls because the effect is magnified. This is why I believe that some hard throwers with high spin rates (like my kid) don’t have the same soft toss carry distance as softer throwers.  In golf reducing the backspin rate significantly increases your drive carry - I believe the physics are the same, but harder to visualize with a thrown baseball.
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A adbono10,000+ posts

@JucoDad, we are not going to agree on this one no matter how many graphs you post - and I don’t have the energy or the inclination for a debate on the issue. When it comes to theories about hitting I defer to higher authorities. In my case, it’s a former MLB player who has been a AA hitting instructor for the past 8 years with the Twins & the Cubs. According to him (and I agree) teaching “launch angle” is a very flawed approach that only works for a small percentage of elite hitters. A certain amount of backspin adds carry to a batted or a thrown baseball.

K K910,000+ posts

I remembered an interesting article about the effect of backspin on hitting from Fan Graphs. 

To summarize - balls hit with higher degrees of backspin tended to outperform others...they travelled further and resulted in a higher BABIP (batting average on ball in play).

However, players who more frequently hit balls with high backspin actually underperformed their peers overall. 

The explanation seems to be that high rates of backspin are associated with successfully hit balls, but that its hard to hit balls that way so players who use this approach have a lesser BABIP.

(Not offering any opinion of my own, just providing link)

https://community.fangraphs.co...-might-surprise-you/

JucoDadJucoDad5,000+ posts
@adbono posted:

@JucoDad, we are not going to agree on this one no matter how many graphs you post - and I don’t have the energy or the inclination for a debate on the issue. When it comes to theories about hitting I defer to higher authorities. In my case, it’s a former MLB player who has been a AA hitting instructor for the past 8 years with the Twins & the Cubs. According to him (and I agree) teaching “launch angle” is a very flawed approach that only works for a small percentage of elite hitters. A certain amount of backspin adds carry to a batted or a thrown baseball.

I’m discussing long toss and the anomaly I’ve noticed for several years. If you were to rank team member's velo off the mound and distance of carry in the air of long toss, the rankings would not be the same.

Some of it could be launch angle, I blew out my shoulder throwing popups – I know my son doesn’t throw long toss with much loft. However, in golf they have realized the Magnus effect (physics of backspin lift of a ball) helps to a point, but too much spin will reduce overall flight distance. What is too much spin? It depends on launch angle and velocity. This understanding has created the newish market for reduced spin divers and golf balls. I believe this applies to all spears with backspin.

I’ve always wondered why my son’s long toss carry did not reflect his velocity out of hand. I now believe his high spin rate (80 percentile) reduces the overall carry of his velocity out of hand (88 percentile). Just my opinion, but the logic works for me.

Buckeye 2015Buckeye 201510,000+ posts

My son did a lot of long toss starting when he was probably 10 years old.  He was a small kid by HS pitching standards (5-9, maybe 145 the first time he hit 90 on the mound).  He attributes a lot of his velo to long toss as he never really had a HS pitching coach....and hadn't seen a PC for a lesson since he was 13 or 14.   He also never touched a weight until he got to college.   He got to college and one day the guys were trying to throw balls over the LF fence from behind the plate.  He didn't clear it, but was the only one to hit the fence on the fly lol.

Last edited by Buckeye 2015
C Collinsclan1,000+ posts

I think both thoughts are correct.  The fundamental difference is the “fence”.  Hitters know backspin will absolutely help keep the ball in the air longer, ie. to clear the fence.  With no fence in golf, reducing spin allows for longer distances.  Keep in mind, I’m not very good at either sport!  Nor a scientist!  And, my opinion is worth about 2 cents.

A adbono10,000+ posts
@R3DM4N13 posted:

Im not familiar with this sites setup. Long toss will always corelate to speed to an extent..... Adbono, it's been awhile, but yes, I brought it😁

I’m not sure what you brought. I don’t disagree with your post. I’m a proponent of long toss. I just like to keep it around a distance of 120’ so the arm slot doesn’t change and the elbow doesn’t drop.

TimtheEnchanterTimtheEnchanter500+ posts
@Collinsclan posted:

I think both thoughts are correct.  The fundamental difference is the “fence”.  Hitters know backspin will absolutely help keep the ball in the air longer, ie. to clear the fence.  With no fence in golf, reducing spin allows for longer distances.  Keep in mind, I’m not very good at either sport!  Nor a scientist!  And, my opinion is worth about 2 cents.

@Collinsclan while your opinion is worth 2 cents... £ 0.015 pounds sterling to be more precise, Tim's opinion is worth $2,995 (£ 2,264 pounds sterling... the Brexit cost me but I digress) ...so if you sign up for Tim's school of flamethrowing at: https:/timschoolofflamthrowers.com and you will get the opinion of "Tim" so it will not matter if you are a scientist or not. Your sons flamethrowing distance or velocity will not change regardless of where he is.

Notice that my flamethrowing technique does not change does regardless of position and, like me Tim,  I can provide any pitcher the holy grail of pitching if they sign up for my Tim's school of flamethrowing...for $2,995.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...p;ab_channel=zabakka

@Consultant next time you decide to start a business I suggest you call me and we can start "Timcodegames" which will make you a much richer man. Also the high T drill means nothing to Tim.

@Buckeye 2015 Need I say more if your son had attended Tim's school of flamethrowing he would be pitching in the MLB at 12.

Tim

Last edited by TimtheEnchanter
A adbono10,000+ posts
@TimtheEnchanter posted:

@Collinsclan while your opinion is worth 2 cents... £ 0.015 pounds sterling to be more precise, Tim's opinion is worth $2,995 (£ 2,264 pounds sterling... the Brexit cost me but I digress) ...so if you sign up for Tim's school of flamethrowing at: https:/timschoolofflamthrowers.com and you will get the opinion of "Tim" so it will not matter if you are a scientist or not. Your sons flamethrowing distance or velocity will not change regardless of where he is.

Notice that my flamethrowing technique does not change does regardless of position and, like me Tim,  I can provide any pitcher the holy grail of pitching if they sign up for my Tim's school of flamethrowing...for $2,995.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...p;ab_channel=zabakka

@Consultant next time you decide to start a business I suggest you call me and we can start "Timcodegames" which will make you a much richer man. Also the high T drill means nothing to Tim.

@Buckeye 2015 Need I say more if your son had attended Tim's school of flamethrowing he would be pitching in the MLB at 12.

Tim

A post I can wholeheartedly agree with! Finally!!

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