TPM, I can tell you definitively that Bum, Jr. threw 305+ his senior year in h.s. I measured his top at 317. I know this because he really hit long-toss hard in the fall (after summer ball) and I would drive him down to the football field to throw. He'd go end zone to end zone.
I think it is important to get the right exit angle on the throw to max distance. It is perfectly understandable that a kid like your son could throw 92-93 MPH and still not throw 300+, if his exit angle is lower.
There is another factor, and that's elevation. Some of these kids are from mountain states and they will definitely throw farther (all other factors equal) than a kid from sea-level Florida.
Bottom line is, get the Stalker out!
Hope that makes sense.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bum:
TPM, I can tell you definitively that Bum, Jr. threw 305+ his senior year in h.s. I measured his top at 317. I know this because he really hit long-toss hard in the fall (after summer ball) and I would drive him down to the football field to throw. He'd go end zone to end zone.
[QUOTE]
I beleive you and what you posted proves my point. Unless someone was there with a pitcher when they were tossing, how would one know who could, who does, toss 300 feet? Especailly at the college or pro level, you have to be there to see their workout. In theory can a pitcher who throws 92-93 from the mound throw 300ft? Maybe, but does he? How would you know that unless you were there to SEE IT?
There is no mention on the website that any one of those guys tosses 300 feet is there? The program is about incorporating bandwork, tossing, mental training as well. Pitchers mold their own programs.
The same for DK, who hits 96,97 maybe he could according to theory toss 300 ft, but he doesn't or do a lot of guys he works with, they toss but they do not hit the 300ft mark. It's just not necessary, to be a good pitcher, to hit 300ft is it?
So I would like to know where the the statement comes from that someone here has yet to see a good pitcher who can't throw around 300ft.
No one argues the value of long toss. If a pitcher hits 97,98, 99 on the radar, it doesn't matter if he can toss 300ft or not, does it?
TPM, I can tell you definitively that Bum, Jr. threw 305+ his senior year in h.s. I measured his top at 317. I know this because he really hit long-toss hard in the fall (after summer ball) and I would drive him down to the football field to throw. He'd go end zone to end zone.
[QUOTE]
I beleive you and what you posted proves my point. Unless someone was there with a pitcher when they were tossing, how would one know who could, who does, toss 300 feet? Especailly at the college or pro level, you have to be there to see their workout. In theory can a pitcher who throws 92-93 from the mound throw 300ft? Maybe, but does he? How would you know that unless you were there to SEE IT?
There is no mention on the website that any one of those guys tosses 300 feet is there? The program is about incorporating bandwork, tossing, mental training as well. Pitchers mold their own programs.
The same for DK, who hits 96,97 maybe he could according to theory toss 300 ft, but he doesn't or do a lot of guys he works with, they toss but they do not hit the 300ft mark. It's just not necessary, to be a good pitcher, to hit 300ft is it?
So I would like to know where the the statement comes from that someone here has yet to see a good pitcher who can't throw around 300ft.
No one argues the value of long toss. If a pitcher hits 97,98, 99 on the radar, it doesn't matter if he can toss 300ft or not, does it?
quote:Originally posted by Bum:
It is perfectly understandable that a kid like your son could throw 92-93 MPH and still not throw 300+, if his exit angle is lower.
300ft LT technique has little relation to mound technique. The arm movement (which contributes approx 50mph) is similar of course, but the torso movement is much different.
quote:
So I would like to know where the the statement comes from that someone here has yet to see a good pitcher who can't throw around 300ft.
That's right- beat it into the ground like any other thing I mention. I was making reference to my own personal experience with the kids whom I personally knew on our HS team, past and present. Every single one of the kids who threw in the 80's from the mound can also throw around 300 feet. Some a little less and some a little more. I have always seen mound velocity correlate with throwing distance.
Why debate this any longer?
According to my understanding, if there is a correlation, if every single pitcher tossing 300 feet only threw in the 80's, perhaps they need to focus more on mound work rather than tossing.
Toss distance does not always correlate to mound velocity. There is alot more that goers into it for sure.
So in reality you can see pitchers tossing 300 feet who aren't very good on the mound, and those who are good on the mound not toss 300 feet.
That's why I commented on your statment.
Toss distance does not always correlate to mound velocity. There is alot more that goers into it for sure.
So in reality you can see pitchers tossing 300 feet who aren't very good on the mound, and those who are good on the mound not toss 300 feet.
That's why I commented on your statment.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
So in reality you can see pitchers tossing 300 feet who aren't very good on the mound, and those who are good on the mound not toss 300 feet.
That's why I commented on your statment.
And you can see good pitchers who can toss it 300 feet. I believe this is more common than your viewpoint.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
According to my understanding, if there is a correlation, if every single pitcher tossing 300 feet only threw in the 80's, perhaps they need to focus more on mound work rather than tossing.
Toss distance does not always correlate to mound velocity. There is alot more that goers into it for sure.
So in reality you can see pitchers tossing 300 feet who aren't very good on the mound, and those who are good on the mound not toss 300 feet.
That's why I commented on your statment.
What I was stating was that the good pitchers I know who have good velocity also can throw a ball a long ways. I have never seen any pitcher, who throws at least 80 from a 3/4 slot or higher, who can't throw a ball a considerable distance. Usually pitchers also make good outfielders. Why is that? because they can throw a ball a considerable distance (velocity).
That's all.
You need to throw at least 87 MPH at optimum angle at sea level to throw 300 ft. 86 MPH at optimum angle at 1000 altitude to throw 300 ft. Not everyone who throws "80's" can throw 300 ft.
There is not necessarily a correlation between pitching hard and throwing for distance. Bum, Jr. threw long-toss for three obstensible purposes, all of which augmented his pitching ability but did not guarantee it (only pitching instruction, stuff and experience can do that):
1) Improve arm speed
2) Reinforce arm slot
3) Promote arm health
Don't confuse long-toss with pitching. There are long-tossers that can't pitch, pitchers that can't long-toss, and pitchers that can long-toss.
There is not necessarily a correlation between pitching hard and throwing for distance. Bum, Jr. threw long-toss for three obstensible purposes, all of which augmented his pitching ability but did not guarantee it (only pitching instruction, stuff and experience can do that):
1) Improve arm speed
2) Reinforce arm slot
3) Promote arm health
Don't confuse long-toss with pitching. There are long-tossers that can't pitch, pitchers that can't long-toss, and pitchers that can long-toss.
Our field we play on is at about 4200 feet above sea level. At that height, one only has to throw 84 mph to throw 300 feet. At 80 mph the ball goes 280 feet which is still close to 300 feet. So anyways, in my neck of the woods, all of our pitchers whom I have seen throwing in the 80's who also throw long toss all throw around 300 feet give or take a few.
I honestly belive that there are some pitchers who flat bring it on the mound but who can't long toss with velocity very well and others who long toss very well but can't translate that velocity to the mound.
But, in general, I would tend to believe that the majority of pitchers with decent velocity can also toss a ball a long ways. Most of the mechanics and principles of physics stays the same except for release angle.
I honestly belive that there are some pitchers who flat bring it on the mound but who can't long toss with velocity very well and others who long toss very well but can't translate that velocity to the mound.
But, in general, I would tend to believe that the majority of pitchers with decent velocity can also toss a ball a long ways. Most of the mechanics and principles of physics stays the same except for release angle.
GBM, 84 at sea level is 84 at 4000' +. Stalkers measure velocity at near-release. The distance is immaterial. Therefore, considering the variables (including exit angle) long-toss distance does not predict mound velocity. At 84, no D1 or pro scout would be interested. Just not hard enough.
While I agree that most kids with 90 MPH velocity can throw for distance, what does it matter if the kid is throwing 90 regardless?
While I agree that most kids with 90 MPH velocity can throw for distance, what does it matter if the kid is throwing 90 regardless?
Bum,
I was only speaking of "decent" pitchers. I wasn't speaking of the "great" pitchers. In one of my posts I said that the 3 seniors who graduated last year and are now playing "small college ball" all throw around 300 feet- they are "decent pitchers", not "great" pitchers. There is a correlation generally speaking with decent or good, or even "great" pitchers with being able to throw a ball a considerable distance.
As for 84 not being good enough for D-1, I know that the University of Utah isn'a powerhouse D-1 or anything but they are still D-1. One of my sons fall teamates from last year just committed to there. He only throws 84 mph from the outfield. That is also basically what he throws from the mound.
I was only speaking of "decent" pitchers. I wasn't speaking of the "great" pitchers. In one of my posts I said that the 3 seniors who graduated last year and are now playing "small college ball" all throw around 300 feet- they are "decent pitchers", not "great" pitchers. There is a correlation generally speaking with decent or good, or even "great" pitchers with being able to throw a ball a considerable distance.
As for 84 not being good enough for D-1, I know that the University of Utah isn'a powerhouse D-1 or anything but they are still D-1. One of my sons fall teamates from last year just committed to there. He only throws 84 mph from the outfield. That is also basically what he throws from the mound.
I'll chime in on this one a little. My son and a kid that he plays HS and summer ball with both throw roughly the same from the mound. My son is probably a couple MPH higher. Son throws mostly 85-87, on good days 86-88 and has touched 89 a couple of times. The other kid is 85-86 hitting 87 at times. I have seen them long toss before. Other kid can throw 300' pretty regular. When they go out that far, my son usually winds up 1 hopping it. Other kid throws more over the top, my son is more 3/4.
Personally, I kind of cringe when son attempts the 300' throws. I see his mechanics change and I worry about his elbow. I also know his mechanics are different when throwing in the field than from the mound. He plays SS and drops down a little more from the field than from the mound. The other kid has a cannon from the outfield, but my son has not played OF since before HS and even then it was limited. He has always thrown harder from the mound than from field as well.
Can my son throw 300'? I'm sure he can. Do I think it is a good thing for him? I'm not a certified pitching coach or anything, but I don't think it is good for him. Others may feel the same, I don't know. Maybe that's why some ML teams don't like their pitchers throwing that far. Just some of my thoughts.
Personally, I kind of cringe when son attempts the 300' throws. I see his mechanics change and I worry about his elbow. I also know his mechanics are different when throwing in the field than from the mound. He plays SS and drops down a little more from the field than from the mound. The other kid has a cannon from the outfield, but my son has not played OF since before HS and even then it was limited. He has always thrown harder from the mound than from field as well.
Can my son throw 300'? I'm sure he can. Do I think it is a good thing for him? I'm not a certified pitching coach or anything, but I don't think it is good for him. Others may feel the same, I don't know. Maybe that's why some ML teams don't like their pitchers throwing that far. Just some of my thoughts.
No question that some of the loads are highest with max distance long toss. The only question is why the loads are higher. The ASMI study concluded that the loads were higher for some reason other than throwing at a higher velocity during max distance long toss. The problem was that they measured the velocities incorrectly for the max distance long toss portion. There is a very real possibility that the velocities were actually several mph higher in the max distance long toss than they measured and higher than in any of the other forms of throwing. If so, then one could reasonably conclude that the reason the loads are higher during max distance long toss is that the velocities are higher. It would then follow that there was a training effect to be gained from max distance long toss. Just like always, the reward of possibly gaining velocity comes with the risk of higher loads on the arm during the max distance portion of the long toss.
I agree with Bum 100% on this. There's a trend for harder throwers to be able to throw further but I've seen big variations in long toss distance between pitchers of similar speeds.
I agree with Bum 100% on this. There's a trend for harder throwers to be able to throw further but I've seen big variations in long toss distance between pitchers of similar speeds.
quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
Bum,
I was only speaking of "decent" pitchers.
Actually you used the word "good".
ikirregardless of all this the bottom line is simple---can the ypoung man pitch?
quote:Originally posted by bballman:
I'll chime in on this one a little. My son and a kid that he plays HS and summer ball with both throw roughly the same from the mound. My son is probably a couple MPH higher. Son throws mostly 85-87, on good days 86-88 and has touched 89 a couple of times. The other kid is 85-86 hitting 87 at times. I have seen them long toss before. Other kid can throw 300' pretty regular. When they go out that far, my son usually winds up 1 hopping it. Other kid throws more over the top, my son is more 3/4.
Personally, I kind of cringe when son attempts the 300' throws. I see his mechanics change and I worry about his elbow. I also know his mechanics are different when throwing in the field than from the mound. He plays SS and drops down a little more from the field than from the mound. The other kid has a cannon from the outfield, but my son has not played OF since before HS and even then it was limited. He has always thrown harder from the mound than from field as well.
Can my son throw 300'? I'm sure he can. Do I think it is a good thing for him? I'm not a certified pitching coach or anything, but I don't think it is good for him. Others may feel the same, I don't know. Maybe that's why some ML teams don't like their pitchers throwing that far. Just some of my thoughts.
My son, in college and in pro, basically did and still does what he is comofrtable with. He told me that he loses release point after certain feet and for him it's more about mechanics than gaining velocity.
Not too sure of all of this, other than whatever a player tosses, his pull down phase is just if not more important than the stretch phase.
IMO, there is no real value in being able to just chuck a ball 300 feet, whether you are decent, good or great.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
IMO, there is no real value in being able to just chuck a ball 300 feet, whether you are decent, good or great.
I agree with this. I think, for a pitcher, if he starts to dramatically, or even minutely, change his mechanics while throwing, it could have negative implications. I don't disagree with having to participate in some kind of flat ground throwing program, but I don't think it NEEDS to be out to 300+ feet.
Each individual is different. For some it is probably fine and they will benefit from it. I also think for some it is not so good and may wind up hurting them in the long run.
I read about what CADad was referring to about the ASMI study. They basically said that throwing those long distances was harder on the arm than pitching from a mound. We can speculate that it is because of higher velocities, or whether it was altered mechanics used in order to throw further and with a different trajectory. The problem is, ASMI did not come to any conclusions as to why there was more force placed on the arm, only that it was.
Once again, I am not trying to change anyone's mind. I just think that for some, throwing that ball that far is not a necessity and may be a negative thing.
How can a player throw a ball 300' with bad mechanics?
NDD, that's exactly right. It's near impossible.
If long-toss is "harmful", then where is the long line of players who say it has caused them injury?Funny that tons of pitchers at all levels swear by it and very, very few have ever said it caused them injury.
Why is throwing a baseball as hard as you can for distance more harmful than throwing as hard as you can from 60ft 6"? Doesn't make sense.
The key benefit of long-toss that flat ground doesn't offer is that it forces a player to speed up their arm. Chinese acrobats weren't born that way, they trained. You have to have genetics to throw 90 but I believe you can optimize your potential by learning how to speed up the arm.
If long-toss is "harmful", then where is the long line of players who say it has caused them injury?Funny that tons of pitchers at all levels swear by it and very, very few have ever said it caused them injury.
Why is throwing a baseball as hard as you can for distance more harmful than throwing as hard as you can from 60ft 6"? Doesn't make sense.
The key benefit of long-toss that flat ground doesn't offer is that it forces a player to speed up their arm. Chinese acrobats weren't born that way, they trained. You have to have genetics to throw 90 but I believe you can optimize your potential by learning how to speed up the arm.
I would like to add "more than once" to my original question.
quote:Originally posted by NDD:
How can a player throw a ball 300' with bad mechanics?
I never said "bad" mechanics. I said their mechanics can change when trying to throw that far. Maybe I'm wrong, but a pitcher tries to throw as hard as he can while "staying within himself". Starters usually don't throw all out because they are expected to go longer. If you're trying to heave the ball as far as you can, I just think its likely that something will change in how you approach that throw. I hear all the time, and have seen it, when a pitcher tries to muscle up and throw as hard as they can, the pitch usually looses velocity. Is it not possible this can happen when trying to throw the ball as far as you possibly can?
My question wasn't specifically directed at you, I was just thinking out loud. That's why I didn't quote you and instead posted it as a stand alone post.
I hear all the time people saying baseball players should play different sports when young, I've seen pitching coaches have them throw footballs, etc.
How is this different?
If you look at the Jaeger video, they provide a pretty good explanation of the purpose of each phase and how to do it. Talks about staying loose and relaxed, etc.
If a player never "goes all out" throwing, how is he ever going to throw harder?
I hear all the time people saying baseball players should play different sports when young, I've seen pitching coaches have them throw footballs, etc.
How is this different?
If you look at the Jaeger video, they provide a pretty good explanation of the purpose of each phase and how to do it. Talks about staying loose and relaxed, etc.
If a player never "goes all out" throwing, how is he ever going to throw harder?
quote:Originally posted by bballman:
I hear all the time, and have seen it, when a pitcher tries to muscle up and throw as hard as they can, the pitch usually looses velocity.
Bum, Jr. never suffered from velocity issues due to long-toss. Just the opposite. Having said that, if a pro team told him tommorow he needed to pitch with his right arm and throw a tennis ball 20 feet against a wall to prep he'd do it.
None of this stuff needs to be dogmatic.
Since I have never seen a guy that could stride 7 feet pitch slower than 90 mph, shouldn't you try to lengthen your stride?
quote:Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
Since I have never seen a guy that could stride 7 feet pitch slower than 90 mph, shouldn't you try to lengthen your stride?
I am not sure of your point, but my opinion is good mechanics, lengthening stride, following a good toss program with bandwork, lots of lower body and core work, great off season conditioning, etc. is what makes a good pitcher a better one, not necessarily tossing the ball 300 feet.
Just out of curiousity, was stride length something the Cards encouraged your son to work on? (My apologies if you already addressed this).
quote:Originally posted by TPM:quote:Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
Since I have never seen a guy that could stride 7 feet pitch slower than 90 mph, shouldn't you try to lengthen your stride?
I am not sure of your point, but my opinion is good mechanics, lengthening stride, following a good toss program with bandwork, lots of lower body and core work, great off season conditioning, etc. is what makes a good pitcher a better one, not necessarily tossing the ball 300 feet.
quote:Originally posted by MTH:
Just out of curiousity, was stride length something the Cards encouraged your son to work on? (My apologies if you already addressed this).
Son always had a long stride, mechanics much better after 3 years of college with Sully, basically I don't think that is something that his organization had to work on with him.
Why do you ask, do believe that a long stride is not necessary?
Thinking about this thread I asked Bum, Jr. what his stride length was and he said it was measured at 6.5'.. about 110% of his height. Not bad for a kid who's 5'10 in shoes. Most pitchers are 80-85% of their height.
There is definitely a correlation between stride length and velocity but few do what it takes to enable themselves to get there. It takes tons of stretching, core, leg work, plyometrics and essentially "crotch" exercises. If you look at those kids with long strides athleticism is a common theme.
There is definitely a correlation between stride length and velocity but few do what it takes to enable themselves to get there. It takes tons of stretching, core, leg work, plyometrics and essentially "crotch" exercises. If you look at those kids with long strides athleticism is a common theme.
I believe in a long stride and teach this to my son. However, going back over footage of known velocities, son actually had his greatest velocities when he woul dpull his stride short and use that leg as added leverage. I am intrigued by this.
quote:Originally posted by Bum:
There is definitely a correlation between stride length and velocity but few do what it takes to enable themselves to get there. It takes tons of stretching, core, leg work, plyometrics and essentially "crotch" exercises. If you look at those kids with long strides athleticism is a common theme.
While a longer stride is what you strive for, the stride should be as far as the body allows without losing mechanics.
I agree, takes a lot of work to condition those hip flexors as well.
DK's buddy was having hip flexor issues, which caused him to shorten stride which caused shoulder issue (more arm than body). Not good.
Quite the contrary. The only reason I ask is that stride is not something most people mention, unless someone has really stressed it to them. I asked the question about your son because I have seen Sully's pitching video and don't recall stride being a point of emphasis. Just thought it might have been something that the Cards were emphasizing.
Tom House says and I'm paraphrasing here, the brain will only let the body stride as far as strength and conditioning allow. So lengthing the stride will really require a lot of work.
As I mentioned in an earlier post, more and more guys seem to be preaching moving as far and as fast as possible. Some are really emphasizing pushing off (gasp), or as one guy calls it, triple extension. I generally don't put a lot of stock in the internet gurus, but if you get bored sometime go to the forum page on topvelocity.net. Listen to his analysis as he compares the guys who send in videos to MLB power pitchers. Interesting stuff.
Tom House says and I'm paraphrasing here, the brain will only let the body stride as far as strength and conditioning allow. So lengthing the stride will really require a lot of work.
As I mentioned in an earlier post, more and more guys seem to be preaching moving as far and as fast as possible. Some are really emphasizing pushing off (gasp), or as one guy calls it, triple extension. I generally don't put a lot of stock in the internet gurus, but if you get bored sometime go to the forum page on topvelocity.net. Listen to his analysis as he compares the guys who send in videos to MLB power pitchers. Interesting stuff.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MTH:
Why do you ask, do believe that a long stride is not necessary?
quote:Originally posted by Bum:
Thinking about this thread I asked Bum, Jr. what his stride length was and he said it was measured at 6.5'.. about 110% of his height. Not bad for a kid who's 5'10 in shoes. Most pitchers are 80-85% of their height.
There is definitely a correlation between stride length and velocity but few do what it takes to enable themselves to get there. It takes tons of stretching, core, leg work, plyometrics and essentially "crotch" exercises. If you look at those kids with long strides athleticism is a common theme.
Bum - I'm interested in your opinion about stride length. My son is 6'5", so using the 110% theory, his stride would need to be a around 7'. He is not anywhere near this.
What are some of the specific things your son did to improve his flexibility?
quote:Originally posted by MTH:
Tom House says and I'm paraphrasing here, the brain will only let the body stride as far as strength and conditioning allow. So lengthing the stride will really require a lot of work.
I am glad you mentioned that because anyone can try to simulate a longer stride, but when it comes down to actually incorporating it into your game, you need the physical foundation to properly execute it.
It is the same principle as arm acceleration/deceleration. Your body in an effort to protect itself will only allow the arm to accelerate as fast as it can decelerate. So if you have a strong and developed front side, but no development in the backside decelerators, you lose speed and are susceptible to injury if you try to force it.
Hope all is well with everybody.
Saw the thread and added another clip to my youtube account.
Did not look to see if some of this was addressed but hope this brings about thoughts and interaction.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N28_JsGS-VY
Saw the thread and added another clip to my youtube account.
Did not look to see if some of this was addressed but hope this brings about thoughts and interaction.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N28_JsGS-VY
Don’t you just hate it when logic and science is introduced into an emotional discussion?
MTH, my son has taken lessons from a Cardinal pitcher who is friends and a cohort of TPM’s son and they worked on stride length a little in conjunction with a lot of other issues, mostly however about staying on line, closed and landing in the same place consistently. I concur (with a lot less knowledge) with Tom House on the stride length and strength. When my son was a scrawny long legged freshmen (fawn like) I used to stress about his stride length, and the coach we were working with looked at me and said “what makes you think his leg strength is going to support that? – relax dad it will lengthen out naturally as he gets bigger and stronger”
MTH, my son has taken lessons from a Cardinal pitcher who is friends and a cohort of TPM’s son and they worked on stride length a little in conjunction with a lot of other issues, mostly however about staying on line, closed and landing in the same place consistently. I concur (with a lot less knowledge) with Tom House on the stride length and strength. When my son was a scrawny long legged freshmen (fawn like) I used to stress about his stride length, and the coach we were working with looked at me and said “what makes you think his leg strength is going to support that? – relax dad it will lengthen out naturally as he gets bigger and stronger”
quote:Originally posted by MTH:
Quite the contrary. The only reason I ask is that stride is not something most people mention, unless someone has really stressed it to them. I asked the question about your son because I have seen Sully's pitching video and don't recall stride being a point of emphasis. Just thought it might have been something that the Cards were emphasizing.
Tom House says and I'm paraphrasing here, the brain will only let the body stride as far as strength and conditioning allow. So lengthing the stride will really require a lot of work.
As I mentioned in an earlier post, more and more guys seem to be preaching moving as far and as fast as possible. Some are really emphasizing pushing off (gasp), or as one guy calls it, triple extension. I generally don't put a lot of stock in the internet gurus, but if you get bored sometime go to the forum page on topvelocity.net. Listen to his analysis as he compares the guys who send in videos to MLB power pitchers. Interesting stuff.quote:Originally posted by TPM:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MTH:
Why do you ask, do believe that a long stride is not necessary?
I don't think that I said that this was verbally mentioned, might or might not have been, I wasn't there, maybe something like the push/pull thing from the rubber, something you just don't verbally talk about but you have to stress the importance of conditioning those parts that will help with better mechanics. I just know that after three years with KO, things were a lost less sloppy.
I would venture to guess that son's stride is about 80-85% (perhaps 5% more due to body maturity and better cond) than in HS/college.quote:Originally posted by birdman14:
Bum - I'm interested in your opinion about stride length. My son is 6'5", so using the 110% theory, his stride would need to be a around 7'. He is not anywhere near this.
What are some of the specific things your son did to improve his flexibility?
As TPM alluded to stride length has a lot to do with a pitcher's base. Bum, Jr. is not tall and he weighs nearly 190 lbs. Counter-intuitively, he is not stocky either. A close look at his legs will explain how this is possible. He has strong, muscular legs yet a lean body mass.
A lot of that is genetic but he trains very hard to be in shape. He would go down to my health club 5-6x week in h.s. to run and stretch, did in-season and especially off-season plyometric work, etc. This is the starting point, but there is more to it. A pitcher can only stretch out as far as he can possibly rotate and maintain proper mechanics. So a strong core is absolutely KEY. Do tons of core work.. and combine this with proper pitching instruction. Because you can have a kid lengthen his stride without doing all the other stuff and you will have shoulder problems develop because his he'll be opening up too soon trying to catch up to his body or otherwise change his mechanics to compensate. Not good.
Core. Leg and crotch strength exercises. Plyometrics. Athleticism. Proper instruction. Like I said, it takes a lot. And it takes time! It is at least a two year process.
Finally, I should add it's probably unrealistic to ever expect your 6'5" son to have a long stride. (He probably doesn't need it.) Most of the guys that stride far relative to their height are shorter guys (e.g, Lincecum).
Birdman,
Bum is right, Bum jr has to make up the distance (closer to mound) than a 6'4" (mine), 6'5" (yours) has to.
Don't worry about it.
MTH,
I have seen the topvelocity site, I like some of his stuff.
http://topvelocity.net/does-ve...the-arm-or-the-body/
And my fav argument...
http://topvelocity.net/the-imp...nce-of-the-fastball/
Bum is right, Bum jr has to make up the distance (closer to mound) than a 6'4" (mine), 6'5" (yours) has to.
Don't worry about it.
MTH,
I have seen the topvelocity site, I like some of his stuff.
http://topvelocity.net/does-ve...the-arm-or-the-body/
And my fav argument...
http://topvelocity.net/the-imp...nce-of-the-fastball/
quote:Originally posted by BOF:
Don’t you just hate it when logic and science is introduced into an emotional discussion?
MTH, my son has taken lessons from a Cardinal pitcher who is friends and a cohort of TPM’s son and they worked on stride length a little in conjunction with a lot of other issues, mostly however about staying on line, closed and landing in the same place consistently. I concur (with a lot less knowledge) with Tom House on the stride length and strength. When my son was a scrawny long legged freshmen (fawn like) I used to stress about his stride length, and the coach we were working with looked at me and said “what makes you think his leg strength is going to support that? – relax dad it will lengthen out naturally as he gets bigger and stronger”
I agree. We went to a camp two years ago when son was an 8th grader and the old wise pitching instructor said that both follow through and stride length improve with added maturity and strength. Over the last two years I have seen son increase both stride length and amount of upper body follow through naturally without him having to think about it. The added velocity due to skeletal maturity and muscle strength naturally make the body stride longer and allow more follow through with the upper body. I don't really worry about it so much now. My son strides about 90% of his height.
Wow, TPM, Bum, GBM and BOH all agree! Kumbaya! 
