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159 replies

Long toss vs. actual pitching velocity

MTHMTH10,000+ posts
As I recall, even in high school he was on a conditioning program his dad designed for him. Just because he weighed 138 lbs. does not mean he was a "weakling."

And there's no way he could have that kind of stride and pitch effectively if he was a weakling.

Don't assume lack of strength just because a kid has an ectomorphic build.

quote:
Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
Let me throw something in the fire... stride length has nothing to do with "strength" or "maturity" or your "core" or "arm acceleration".

Little Timmy was a 138 pound weakling in HS throwing 94 mph, with a huge stride.
BOFBOF10,000+ posts
SOS:

You seem to bring little Timmy up a lot to describe what 100's, maybe 1,000's of other pitchers can't accomplish. The fact is that he is indeed a "freak" one of a kind pitcher.

I do not know him, but from what I have read Lincecom is actually not a weakling, as you seem to think he is. He is extremely athletic, can do handstands walking around the infield, and other athletic activities that others can't even come close to doing. Some have said he would have been an excellent gymnast. This means to me he is extremely strong in his core, his legs, all with a relatively low weight. Do not equate how much someone weighs to their “strength to weight ratio”.

This site is mostly about HS players, or at least on their way to and from HS ball. The facts are that smaller kids tend to develop their hand eye coordination earlier and their bodies fill out to support their frame earlier. IE core and leg strength. Like most here our experience is with our sons and I can say that my son (who is a college freshmen this year) is still probably a year away from filling out and being capable of supporting his frame properly. I will go dig out a picture from his freshmen year and show you what I mean. There is no way he could have supported his frame with the long and lanky legs he had at that time. So yes stride length has everything to do with do with "strength" or "maturity" or your "core". Arm acceleration maybe not so much.
SultanofSwatSultanofSwat10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by BOF:
You seem to bring little Timmy up a lot to describe what 100's, maybe 1,000's of other pitchers can't accomplish. The fact is that he is indeed a "freak" one of a kind pitcher.

He's called a "freak" because he doesn't fit most people's ideas of how to pitch. Either he's a freak, or most people don't understand how velocity is generated. So, that's why I like to think about Timmy when I'm considering velocity improvements.


quote:

I do not know him, but from what I have read Lincecom is actually not a weakling, as you seem to think he is. He is extremely athletic, can do handstands walking around the infield, and other athletic activities that others can't even come close to doing.

I don't think he could bench much. Of course I have read the things you mentioned. Maybe pitchers should be doing handstands instead of LT? Smile

quote:
I could not find the one I was looking for but this gives you an idea that this kid was not going to be able to stride out and support the landing of a Lincecom, just not physically possible.

My son probably weighs less and he is up to 105% of height this week. He added the last 6 inches in a few weeks of practicing to increase his stride length. The first day he said "I can't go that far". The last day he said "That was easy".
Last edited by SultanofSwat
MTHMTH10,000+ posts
Most (not all) baseball people agree that a good LT program can increase distance and MPH. However, I don't thing anyone has ever done a study to determine exactly why those gains occur. I suspect that there could be several reasons, depending on the kid. The following are my opinions/speculations.

When some kids start LT their shoulders are their weak link. LT may help strengthen the shoulder, thereby giving them a few MPH. Would a good shoulder program work just as well? Perhaps.

SOme kids may have strong shoulders, but they simply aren't used to throwing hard. IMHO LT helps these kids loosen their arm actions up a bit, thereby adding a little velocity. (See Jaeger's site for more info).

Max distance LT tends to be a higher tempo, more aggressive movement. Players tend to go at hit harder with the legs than they would normally. I suspect this aggressive movement, this DRIVE, this intent to throw harder, helps build flexibility and strength in the core and legs. Personally, I think this is the main reason LT helps.

You state that you can increase your stride length by practicing and measuring. I would submit to you that when you do that you are building strength and flexibility, the same thing you do with LT.

Just my humble opinions.

quote:
Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
How is it that a kid can increase his LT distance in a few weeks without becoming "mature", or strengthening their "core" or increasing their "strength"?

Don't they increase their distance by "practicing to increase their distance"?

You can increase your stride length simply by practicing and measuring.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
My understanding also (same as BOF's) is that Lincecum is extremely athletic and an unusual competitor as well.

He's a great story but there are not too many like him, so it's hard to really use him as an example.

I agree with MTH's explanation of how LT increases arm strength. Would a good shoulder program work just as well? I'll bet it would.
BumBum1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
I don't think he could bench much.


Bench pressing has nothing to do with athleticism. And certainly nothing to do with velocity. Some of the smallest guys in the world -- think Pacquiao or Bruce Lee -- are the most athletic and toughest.

Lincecum is no weakling. He is cut and a physical specimen. Don't confuse strength with power.
Last edited by Bum
J jdfromfla100+ posts
quote:
Would a good shoulder program work just as well? I'll bet it would.



I have to think that the holistic approach that is long toss would be more effective TPM, it's a concerted whole body attempt at "something"...just like you used to yell at the kids to get out of the house and play, you know it's better to be active, as a parent you sort of inherit that instinct. I still love it for how fun it is to chunk at distance with my kid, but just as the "shoulder program work" would help, this would help more, as it is an entire body experience in extending the bounds..so it is a mental approach thing as well as a physical approach thing..it ain't and never will be all there is and I'm afraid too many think it is just about "all there is", which on any level just isn't true if the goal is to develop a pitcher. I think that is why it seems so daggone controversial..as a portion of a training effort it is small potatos and shouldn't bug anyone, if it is "the whole taco"? Well you can definately knock holes in it.
I recommend it to every dad who wants to enjoy time with his kid, and any person who develops in the sport will encounter it...it doesn't bite..use it for how you can benefit and "worry" about something meaningful.
Last edited by jdfromfla
CADadCADad5,000+ posts
I believe, though I can't prove it, that Don Sutton had a stride length much less than 90% of his height. He wasn't too bad of a pitcher.

In general stride length helps with velocity but there are certainly limits that are different for each pitcher depending on their physical makeup.

When it comes to pitching shorter stride lengths could result in better breaking stuff for some pitchers and be more than enough to offset the velocity difference.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by CADad:
When it comes to pitching shorter stride lengths could result in better breaking stuff for some pitchers and be more than enough to offset the velocity difference.


You may be right, but I would never tell a pitcher to give up velocity for better breaking stuff.

GBM,
You didn't get it....
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by jdfromfla:
Look at Fred being all timely and what not...this in desperate effort to save us all and return ever so slowly to the op...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N28_JsGS-VY


hum....so he is saying the faster the arm, the farther the ball goes...hum...interesting concept! So, If I want to throw harder, I have to actually speed up the arm and if I wnt to throw slower, I should slow down the arm...interesting!
Last edited by Gingerbread Man
J jdfromfla100+ posts
quote:
hum....so he is saying the faster the arm, the farther the ball goes...hum...interesting concept! So, If I want to throw harder, I have to actually speed up the arm and if I wnt to throw slower, I should slow down the arm...interesting!


So thats what he was talking about..imagine one of the most respected pitching coaches in college baseball being so simplistic....sure am glad you're here to help.
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Bum:
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
quote:
Originally posted by MTH:
So, how long have the two of you been married? ;-)


ROFLMAO, heaven forbid!


Wow, wouldn't that lead to the criminalization of marriage? Confused


I think the earth would split in half causing a chain reaction that would destroy all life in the universe. No one would be left to ever know what baseball even was!
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
quote:
Originally posted by Bum:
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
quote:
Originally posted by MTH:
So, how long have the two of you been married? ;-)


ROFLMAO, heaven forbid!


Wow, wouldn't that lead to the criminalization of marriage? Confused


I think the earth would split in half causing a chain reaction that would destroy all life in the universe. No one would be left to ever know what baseball even was!


And G-d said, let there be light, and there was and it was good.

Good thing because he had a lot of work to do!!!!

A new generation emerged of parents and coaches that felt that very young players needed to work harder on their FB, to throw curve balls or sliders was forbidden under a certain age (14) as was playing in multiple leagues and tournies on weekends, year round baseball was abandoned as was the bunt squeeze. Pitch counts were stictly adhered to, the LLWS was abolished. Wood bats only.

Anyone giving advice on why players had sore elbows without proper training were banished, their punishment to watch for eternity nothing but yankee and red sox games (no HD available for them).

Soon a new "breed" of pitchers emerged, ones that never had to go to the doctor for sore elbows or hurt shoulders, sore hips, all players learned early the importance of good mechanics and good core and lower body conditioning, pushing against the rubber was forbidden to speak about, and all pitches should come from the same slot as the FB was mandatory. Gyroballs didn't exist. The merits of LT still remained controversial. Dads were forbidden to coach their sons (no more DADDY BALL allowed)! Travel ball and costs were restricted according to age category and convenience of travel and scout location. This was established as helpful in avoiding over use. Playing other sports under a certain age was encouraged as were mandatory rest periods. Ratings and rankings were none existant.

It didn't matter how tall you were (or were not) or your velocity, as long as you played the game and worked hard to be your best, you were rewarded for your hard work and effort.

After all of this work was done and on the seventh day when G-d finally got some rest (either a saturday or a sunday take your pick), the Cubbies finally won the World Series! Eek
Last edited by TPM
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by Bum:
Very funny stuff, TPM. Only one question.. did God make umpires, too? Wink


OOPs!
Eventually the masses cried out and asked of the baseball G-d, "but who will watch over us and make sure that we follow the rules that you wish us to live by".

So therefore G-d created what was to eventually become the GREAT EVIL UMPIRE.
Last edited by TPM
Low FinishLow Finish500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
quote:
Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
quote:
Originally posted by Bum:
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
quote:
Originally posted by MTH:
So, how long have the two of you been married? ;-)


ROFLMAO, heaven forbid!


Wow, wouldn't that lead to the criminalization of marriage? Confused


I think the earth would split in half causing a chain reaction that would destroy all life in the universe. No one would be left to ever know what baseball even was!


And G-d said, let there be light, and there was and it was good.

Good thing because he had a lot of work to do!!!!

A new generation emerged of parents and coaches that felt that very young players needed to work harder on their FB, to throw curve balls or sliders was forbidden under a certain age (14) as was playing in multiple leagues and tournies on weekends, year round baseball was abandoned as was the bunt squeeze. Pitch counts were stictly adhered to, the LLWS was abolished. Wood bats only.

Anyone giving advice on why players had sore elbows without proper training were banished, their punishment to watch for eternity nothing but yankee and red sox games (no HD available for them).

Soon a new "breed" of pitchers emerged, ones that never had to go to the doctor for sore elbows or hurt shoulders, sore hips, all players learned early the importance of good mechanics and good core and lower body conditioning, pushing against the rubber was forbidden to speak about, and all pitches should come from the same slot as the FB was mandatory. Gyroballs didn't exist. The merits of LT still remained controversial. Dads were forbidden to coach their sons (no more DADDY BALL allowed)! Travel ball and costs were restricted according to age category and convenience of travel and scout location. This was established as helpful in avoiding over use. Playing other sports under a certain age was encouraged as were mandatory rest periods. Ratings and rankings were none existant.

It didn't matter how tall you were (or were not) or your velocity, as long as you played the game and worked hard to be your best, you were rewarded for your hard work and effort.

After all of this work was done and on the seventh day when G-d finally got some rest (either a saturday or a sunday take your pick), the Cubbies finally won the World Series! Eek


Uh-oh... Someone who wants to change baseball for the better. She must be a witch!

Honestly though, great post. I don't agree with the not pushing off the rubber thing, but that's OK, and I don't think all pitches should come from the same slot as the fastball. But otherwise,
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
I kind of tried to cover many of our discussions that we have had here with GBM's doomsday.

One question, why are you opposed to a pitcher throwing from same slot? What would be the necessity to do so?

My understanding has always been that every pitch should appear as if it were a FB. If a pitcher throws from different slots (different pitches) the better hitters recognize this. One can get away with it it as a youth pitcher, in HS, maybe college, but the buck usually stops there.

So, in reality you are saying if the pitcher has 3 pitches they all should come from different slots? How does that work?
Last edited by TPM
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
I kind of tried to cover many of our discussions that we have had here with GBM's doomsday.

One question, why are you opposed to a pitcher throwing from same slot? What would be the necessity to do so?

My understanding has always been that every pitch should appear as if it were a FB. If a pitcher throws from different slots (different pitches) the better hitters recognize this. One can get away with it it as a youth pitcher, in HS, maybe college, but the buck usually stops there.

So, in reality you are saying if the pitcher has 3 pitches they all should come from different slots? How does that work?


TPM seems wholly unaware that-YES, even in the big leagues, on occasion, there are a few pitchers who change arm slots and can still throw all of their pitches from a different slot. Is it a normal thing that "all pitchers" do? NO, but it is true that even in the highest level of baseball competition you still have a few pitchers who are able to, and occasionally do change arm slots during a game.

TPM still refuses to believe this phenomenon and has since decryed the doom of poor GBM as being a heretic!
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
I kind of tried to cover many of our discussions that we have had here with GBM's doomsday.

One question, why are you opposed to a pitcher throwing from same slot? What would be the necessity to do so?

My understanding has always been that every pitch should appear as if it were a FB. If a pitcher throws from different slots (different pitches) the better hitters recognize this. One can get away with it it as a youth pitcher, in HS, maybe college, but the buck usually stops there.

So, in reality you are saying if the pitcher has 3 pitches they all should come from different slots? How does that work?


TPM seems wholly unaware that-YES, even in the big leagues, on occasion, there are a few pitchers who change arm slots and can still throw all of their pitches from a different slot. Is it a normal thing that "all pitchers" do? NO, but it is true that even in the highest level of baseball competition you still have a few pitchers who are able to, and occasionally do change arm slots during a game.

TPM still refuses to believe this phenomenon and has since decryed the doom of poor GBM as being a heretic!



What exactly are you refering to, throwing different pitches from different slots or the same pitch from different slots? That is something only a very very few can do and not recommended by most pitching coaches. If it's something you don't see done often (as you stated), there is a reason why, what would you suppose that reason is GBM?

Did I ever say I never saw it, please show me, however I can show where you said it was a good thing because your son did it.

Keep in mind we are not speaking about ML pitchers GBM (I just know you can't wait for your son to become one), we are speaking about pitchers on the youth level, not sure how many can actually be successful with too much going on with different mechanics.

DK threw from multiple slots in HS (he was fast and could get away with it), and it took his college pitching coach almost 3 years to correct and his AA coach had to recorrect as he was tipping his CU.

So if you are recommending it, I would as a parent (if reading this), take the advice from Kevin O'Sullivan and Dennis Martinez, over GBM from Idahooooooooo.
Last edited by TPM
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
People from Idaho aren't smart?


I didn't say that you did, what is his experience?
14, 15 year olds? Is he a certified pitching coach, has he ever pitched himself ( if so at what level and when).

Is he going to refute what a former ML and the HC of UF instruct?

Again, if there are only a "few" who do it, why only a few?
Low FinishLow Finish500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
I kind of tried to cover many of our discussions that we have had here with GBM's doomsday.

One question, why are you opposed to a pitcher throwing from same slot? What would be the necessity to do so?

My understanding has always been that every pitch should appear as if it were a FB. If a pitcher throws from different slots (different pitches) the better hitters recognize this. One can get away with it it as a youth pitcher, in HS, maybe college, but the buck usually stops there.

So, in reality you are saying if the pitcher has 3 pitches they all should come from different slots? How does that work?


No, I want several pitches to be thrown from each slot. Good pitchers should be able to throw several pitches from each arm slot (but then again, I was always taught the Johnny Sain method of pitching)
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