Marshall Pitching Motion

quote:

How happy do you think they would be if they knew you were posting pictures on a public web site and disecting their mechanics. What would you say your qualifications were to do this. It is true that there are guys who pitch in MLB that don't have ideal mechanics but who are you to opinionate in public?

I don't know. I plan on asking Cliff Politte in a couple of weeks.

I do think that Chris Carpenter might be interested in my theories about the cause of his shoulder problems.

I also know of a guy who broke down Bob Gibson's motion with Gibby in the room and lived to tell about it. If Gibby can take it then, as long as the intentions are good, I believe most ML's could take it as well. In fact, several major league teams are interested in getting just these kinds of analyses of potential draft picks. They don't want to waste their money.

That's also why I don't mock anyone. I just try to say what I like and what I don't like and why.

While you may believe that it is presumptuous for me to do this in public, I can point you to 20 people who think it's valuable (but possibly still presumptuous).

If you don't like my analyses then either don't read them or put together some of your own.

I think you are probably an honest sincere person. The reason I say that is that you have avoided my question about qualification like the plague.
Chris you should ask the permission before putting this on a public forum because you are doing this preliminary work to possibly publish a book.

quote:

I think you are probably an honest sincere person. The reason I say that is that you have avoided my question about qualification like the plague.

Does what I posted above answer your questions.

I'm not trying to hide anything.

No
Have you taken recognized coaching couses and been given a certification ?

quote:

Have you taken recognized coaching couses and been given a certification ?

Yes and yes.

I have taken multiple coaching courses put on by my local CYC (Catholic Youth Council).

When it comes to pitching in particular, I am entirely self-taught. While you may disagree, I think that's a good thing since I'm not convinced that those certifications are worth much if/since they aren't based on science (which is a big part of the problem).

Instead, I have read and re-read (and in many cases re-re-read) the books that have been put out by the major gurus. I have then compared everything they say with what the scientific research (such as it is) says.

As a result (and to a large degree thanks to Dr. Marshall), I will say that I probably understand the physiology of pitching better than do most people. Many (most?) pitching coaches don't even understand the orientation of the muscles and ligaments in the forearm and shoulder and can't name the muscles the make up the rotator cuff. I do and I can.

I am talking to Dr. Marshall about becoming certified to teach his ideas. There are probably only a few others in the country who understand his ideas as well as I do.

Good for you, Bobblehead!

There are no baseball credentials.

quote:

Have you taken recognized coaching couses and been given a certification ?

Let me say one more thing about this and my approach to coaching and evaluating players.

As I have said elsewhere, when evaluating players -- while I do rely on my understanding of the physiology of pitching -- I try to do so relative to two groups of people...

1) Major leaguers who had long, injury-free careers.

2) Major leaguers who had short, injury-plagued careers.

I look at a player's motion and then see what major league player's motion(s) it resembles. If they look like Greg Maddux or Nolan Ryan, than that's a good thing. If they look like Mark Prior or Don Drysdale, then that's a problem.

This is a deliberately very conservative approach that has led Dr. Marshall to chastise me for taking it. However, I think it's the right approach to take if the player or the parent isn't interested in trying out Dr. Marshall's ideas.

This approach is also very different than the approach that I believe is taken by ASMI. Based on what Tom House has says, I believe they compare everyone to the person they believe has the ideal mechanics: Mark Prior. I view this as at least curious and potentially dangerous given Prior's history of injuries.

I believe that it is better (and safer) to compare pitchers to people like Nolan Ryan, Greg Maddux, and Tom Glavine who had long, successful, and injury-free careers.

Chill....that being said, there are plenty of guys with lots of "credentials" out there teaching garbage. His opinions are his opinions.... What would make me more interested in them would be if they could point to someone who is using their odd motion in high level competition and succeeding.... without that it's just theory....

quote:

What would make me more interested in them would be if they could point to someone who is using their odd motion in high level competition and succeeding

While I can't point you to someone who is using the pure version of Dr. Marshall's ideas, I can point you to someone who is doing something very similar and getting good results.

Josh Outman.

He is a prospect in the Phillies organization who has been widely ridiculed for his very unconventional mechanics (you think Marshall's motion looks weird) but has been very successful. He is able to consistently throw in the mid-90's but has a very sneaky delivery and late release point.

What I find interesting about his motion is that it was designed by his father Fritz who, working completely independently of Dr. Marshall, has come to many of the same conclusions.

The scientist in me finds examples like this of convergent evolution to be very interesting. It suggests that there is something fundamentally right to the approach taken by both men.

Personally, I don't judge a PC by their diplomas. I judge them by analyzing their teachings in light of physics and biomechanics. By how they support their teachings. By observing those pitchers who use their mechanics. And by common sense.

I'm sorry, but with what has come to light in this thread, I just cannot go along with CC's proposed mechanics. Again, this assumes the mechanics he teaches bear resemblance (albeit not perfect) to the video he posted.

I can fully appreciate the position that Coach Chris is in, that it's him against the world.

But it sure helps to be at least close to right.

So Chris you are uncertified and if you read Tom House you will notice that "The Pitchers Edge" is written by Tom, Nolan Ryan and DR John Gleddies. That book is a computerized break down of the pitchers mechanics.
You are not even close and the fear I have is that you are running around teaching young kids this garbage. I am a skeptic but not dilusional as you are. Dr John Gleddies was an evaluator of MLB pitchers. I would show him your video but he would wet himself. In my area we are lucky to have an abundance of prfessional pitching instruction. We had a Jays A club here for several years and I was lucky to know many of the stars in MLB including Chris Carpenter. I attended their workouts and even attended picnics where my son was able to throw with some of these guys and be instructed by them. I could name you a 100 or more guys in MLB like Carlos Delgado, Vernon Wells and on and on.
The idea that you are capable of of passing judgement is dilusional and even worse is dangerous. Non of my ideas are my own which in this case is a good thing but gleaned from years of instruction and study. I am a highly educated person in accounting economics and law and I would know the difference between dilusion and reality. You are out of touch. If you want to coach get proper certification and learn proper pitching techniques and get certified.This DR is a salesman and is taking your money. Anyone who tells you some things are good and others need work after viewing your video is pulling your leg.
You have gotten advice from people who knwo what they are talking about but only you and the doc know what the truth is. You scare me !

"If you read Tom House you will notice that 'The Pitchers Edge' is written by Tom, Nolan Ryan and DR John Gleddies. That book is a computerized break down of the pitchers mechanics."

Don't let the computerized mumbo-jumbo fool you. I have read the book multiple times and it says remarkably little of substance.

Also, and more importantly, how can you explain Mark Prior's injury problems if he has perfect mechanics? If you think it's due to poor conditioning, then why do Anthony Reyes and Paul Byrd -- who have nearly identical mechanics -- have even more physical problems? How can you make sense of Robb Nen's continual injury problems -- which ultimately ended his career -- given that he is such a student of Tom House?

He you ever wondered whether it's House, and not Marshall, who is truly selling Unobtainium?


"If you want to coach get proper certification and learn proper pitching techniques and get certified."

Who would you suggest I contact for certification? What would I learn that I don't already know?


"This DR is a salesman and is taking your money. Anyone who tells you some things are good and others need work after viewing your video is pulling your leg."

Here's the problem with your logic; I've already bought everything he has to sell (and he's going to give me his 2006 video for free). He has no incentive to string me along because there is no next level of tapes to buy into. He just wants me to do it right so I can teach it right.

CoachChris,

I have poked fun at this a few times. I wanted a cheap chuckle and meant you no harm. I apologize for that.

It is clear you are passionate about this and have taken an extraordinary amount of time and energy in learning as much as you have. That being said, I relate it to myself on two different fronts. My personal baseball experience ended at high school. I was not active in the game in any way (other than watching my beloved Sox) for 20 years until my son was born. Since he was 9, I have lived and slept baseball. I have spent incredible amounts of time taking him to people who know much, much more than I could ever know. I find it laughable how little I knew before this journey began, and how much I know compared to the casual parent of a high school player. Yet, I still feel like an amateur compared to some of these high level guys (pro scouts, college coaches, etc).

My background after high school (football and wrestling in HS) was power lifting (almost 24 years). To this day (10 years after I've stopped lifting), I read books, magazines, websites on training routines, exercises, etc. I contest that individuals who have never done it at a high level, and who give advice on lifting have absolutely no clue on it, no matter how much they've read, and whatever big fancy words they choose to throw around. Until you have felt the weight of 600 pounds on your back, and the mental ability to block out pain before you've even begun the lift, you cannot tell another how to do it. No way! I can go out today, and on technique alone, out lift others who are 30 years younger and have been working out for a couple of years. I occasionally do it to motivate my son, who is, by most accounts, stronger than most kids he knows.

All that being said, you've never been on a mound 60 feet from home plate (Please! I've seen the video). All the fancy medical terms aren't worth spit if you haven't felt it inside.

You have to know what it feels like, and to be able to bring visualization and the knowledge of that feeling together. I don't know if my words relate what I am trying to say, but I can visualize aspects of lifting, because I lived it for so many years.

What I tell my son in baseball is what I've heard from very good coaches, and what I've read. Like you, I believe it to be correct. Yet, I can't feel what I am telling him (bringing the visualization and physical feeling together), so it is difficult for me to gauge the ease/difficulty of the task. Yet, if it pertains to lifting, I can use visualization to develop a physical feeling, and then guide him from there.

So, to bring this to a few words, you may be successful with the local little league kids, but you're wasting a lot of energy trying to reach out to higher levels. You cannot feel the technique to know it’s effect.

My final advice, take pitching lessons for a year or so, then maybe you can visualize and feel what you are trying to teach.

Judging by how you read here I am not surprised that you found little of anything..

No incentive !! you are a walking sales pitch just don't show the video.

quote:

Judging by how you read here I am not surprised that you found little of anything

The problem is that he lays out lots of big ideas but, aside from the towel drill, doesn't really tell you how to do anything to improve them.

It's descriptive and not prescriptive.

Of course that might be intentional. He might be giving people just enough to want to buy his video.

quote:

All that being said, you've never been on a mound 60 feet from home plate (Please! I've seen the video). All the fancy medical terms aren't worth spit if you haven't felt it inside.

But you're wrong here.

True, I haven't been on a mound during a HS, college, or professional game. However, you have to understand this stuff pretty well even if you are going to do a good job pitching batting practice (which I can after years of hard work).

If you think pitching BP is so easy, talk to all the coaches who can't. Instead, they are constantly hitting their kids.

One thing I learned as a result of throwing thousands of batting practice balls is that the ball will tend to go where the eyes are looking. If I look at the batter, I will tend to hit the batter (no matter how much I don't want to). If I look at the glove, I will tend to hit the glove.

When throwing BP without a catcher, I have found that I am much more accurate if I lock in on a rock or tuft or grass that is in the strike zone. If my eyes start to drift, so does the ball.

Last year I was able to quickly and easily settle down my pitchers when they got wild. When I would come back to the bench the other coaches would come up to me and ask me what I told them, expecting to hear something very technical. Instead, I told them that what I told pitchers was "Look at the glove, not the batter" and "Look at the glove. Throw to the glove." 9 times out of ten the next pitch was a strike.

I think those kinds of experiences give me a decent understanding of what's going on.

Pitcher's get hurt because they are involved in strenuous physical activity...Not to say that some don't do it better/smoother than others. Picking individuals and saying they were injured due to a specific mechanic is speculative at best. The actual cause could be what you see, or what you see when combined with something you don't see, or a combination of eight things including genetics. The idea that injuries must be caused by cumulative repetitive bad mechanics is flawed.
Pitchers can throw for 20 years then get hurt....Is this because they throw wrong? They can get hurt in 1st year...then throw the same way for another 15 without injury. Runners get hurt...are you looking for unique ways to run? They run the way they do to get somewhere quick. It won't change unless you supply a way to get there quicker..........same idea with pitching..have not seen it yet.

Update:
Wrote this then saw what Bbscout wrote. He said it better... Troy99

"Using Prior as an example of injury has some merit, but using Drysdale is way off base. He has a National League record of pitching 11 1/2 straight years without ever missing a start in a time where the pitchers pitched on 3 days rest. He hurt his arm in his 14th year in the big leagues which is way past the time most pitchers even pitch let alone have arm injuries."

I understand what you are saying. To a degree it's driven by my current limitations; by whose pictures I can get my hands on.


"Why don't you use Karl Spooner or Herb Score instead..."

I'm not familiar with their stories. Can you tell me the basics and why you think I should study them?


"Nolan Ryan had elbow surgery in 1975, but recovered and went on to a long career, and hurt his arm again in his last year."

In general I think Ryan is an example of what to do.


"Clemens had shoulder surgery in the mid 80's and is still going strong. I guess that from your point of view, Clemens must have a lousy delivery, or he never would have hurt his shoulder in the first place."

No, but he has changed his delivery significantly since he was in Boston. I would argue that he had to do that to continue to be successful.

I still say that if he can't prove anything, then it is still just a theory. And based on statistics, this theory has a much better chance of being wrong then ever proven right.

I will stick with over 100 years of trial and error (data) to base my teaching techniques on, not just someone's guess (theory). Are you willing to spend a significant amount of time working on something that is more than likely not going to work (statistically)? I think you would be much better off using some of the successful MLB pitchers that had injury free careers as your model. And even doing this, you will probably still have injuries in your career. Marshall's mechanics have never been proven to reduce injuries. Why? Apparently no one is capable of mastering them to give us evidence.

You can't believe that anyone is capable of telling you exactly how a baseball should be thrown. There are too many varables to ever throw a ball the same way twice. So even if someone mastered Marshall's mechanics, it would only be for one pitch.

Again, just my opinion

"Picking individuals and saying they were injured due to a specific mechanic is speculative at best. The actual cause could be what you see, or what you see when combined with something you don't see, or a combination of eight things including genetics."

But, in my opinion at least, that doesn't mean that it isn't worth asking the question.


"The idea that injuries must be caused by cumulative repetitive bad mechanics is flawed."

How? Why?


"Pitchers can throw for 20 years then get hurt....Is this because they throw wrong?"

Possibly. Some problems may take longer than others to take their toll.


"They can get hurt in 1st year...then throw the same way for another 15 without injury."

Not in my experience. The guys who went on to long careers after experiencing injuries (e.g. Clemens) had to change their mechanics.


"Runners get hurt...are you looking for unique ways to run?"

Not at the moment. ;-)

Seriously, I am interested in other ideas about how to hit. Ideas like rotational hitting.

bbscout,

I'd be interested in conducting an experiment that is relevant to this topic if you are interested.

Around draft time, send me the names and/or clips of some guys that you're looking at and I'll give you my prediction of what will happen to them. Then we'll see what happens over time.

If I'm wrong, then you lose nothing. If I'm right, then I'll teach you what I know and you'll end up with an advantage over the other scouts since your guys will be less injury-prone.

I'm already talking to someone in another organization about doing just this.

ROFLMAO

And I'll teach bbscout the benefits of weak hands

Chis, this is a tread from another message board. This guy came from South Africa and has parallels to you. Not the mechanics but the dilusions that he could re invent baseball. Probably very educated.
He wrote a 5 page ketter to try to get a coach dismissed because he didn't agree with his drills etc. He dosen't take pro advise ie Jim Ridley former P coach for the Jays now withy Twins. He knows better.

Message:
Big Hop
Let me first of all say that I wont step to your level of personal insults but I will try to use some logic to answer your statements. First of all I have heard everybody say the same thing about long toss yet nobody has provided any shred of scientific proof to back up their statemnt.

The only conclusion I can draw from this is that this conviction, stems from BS, better known as belief systems. I have further done an experiment with my son, by letting him stand square and throw just with the arm.. No matter how many time he threw, the velocity of the ball more or less stayed the same regardless of the arm speed.

I futher found that by letting my son go through the pitching motion, of a balanced start,with good posture and with forward movement, landing in the right position and doing proper rotation with the correct release point and follow through increased pitching velocity dramatically.

So maybe I just dont get it. I also did a little research and found the following which I quote :

Long toss has little to no value in any of those areas especially since pitching velocity is not an arm strength activity. The arm is the delivery device of the forces of the pitcher's body. It is virtually along for the ride. There are no muscle contractions going on in the pitcher's shoulder from the landing position until ball release which is considered to be the "arm acceleration" phase of pitching.

If the arm does not accelerate itself in pitching then why long toss?

Pitching velocity is not the result of arm strength or muscle contractions but is the result of stored elastic energy. Yes, you must use muscle contractions to get the arm into position to accelerate but there is little activity going on within the arm to accelerate it.

This means that no amount of long toss is going to improve throwing velocity.

After reading it carefully it really makes a lot of sense dont you think?

I further used my cricket knowledge which with bowling(pitching) also places a tremendous amount of strain on the body. I also spoke to professional cricketers and nowhere did anybody play long toss.

Now thats astounding if you think that on average the cricket bowler (pitcher) deliver(pitches) 360 balls per day and can sometimes do this for 5 days consecutively. Also remember that cricket currently holds the record for the highest velocity namely 112 miles per hour.

Hob I also think that you really have it wrong. Muscle memory does not come from pitching drills, but from repetition.

You see by doing it over and over the muscles kind of remenber things. Now if its going to be the right muscle memory doesnt it make sense that it should come from throwing bullpens of the mound under game conditions.

Surely you will also have the opportunity to improve control and command. Now it appears from reading some of steps Scout reports, thanks step, that control and command is always a big problem.

Throwing of flat ground does not simulate proper pitching due to the forces of gravity thats in play when throwing of the mound. If you want I will provide you with the scientific description of all of these forces.As a matter of fact is places increased strain on the arm

It also appears that you contradict yourself a little bit and I quote "You can't hit a spot with a certain pitch if you are still sub-consciously thinking about where your leg has to land or where ur arm lines up etc...

It is my experience, and this happened when we attended full winter pitching clinics with Jim Ridley from the Cardinals, that what you are describing is a direct result from pitching drills. You see pitching drills is not natural throwing, it makes you mechanical and I have found that the pitcher does exactly what you describe.

Pitching should be natural and you fix things a little bit at a time after doing proper video analysis

I believe I have already answered your last question. We dont do long toss but blocked bullpens twice a week of the mound under game conditions where we work on control and command, one of the most important things that a pitcher needs to be able to do.

Now Hob if you can refute any of the above with scientif fact I am all ears.

Ps The Jim Ridley sessions cost me double the amount of the Dick Mills information and it contributed very little towards my sons development. Good investment or not?

All time "Golden Thread" Best Single Response ever...
I have permissiosn from Catchermom and FO to post this..

Coach Chris

Have you ever heard of confidentiality of a scout's information?

Shep Still Cares

Whatever.

I think I may be on to something and am trying to figure out some way to test my theory.

I'll just come up with a different approach.

Chris,

Over the next year you will be able tosee several of the very best pitchers in the country on baseballwebtv.com.

Many will become high draft picks. After looking at them pitch, you can give us your assessment. We would not release your info to the public until after the draft. Then you and the rest of us can find out if you're on to something here.

This would carry a lot more weight because you would be making these predictions ahead of time instead of just finding out who has been injured and finding something they were doing wrong. The current subjects give you a big heads up, being they have been injured. More interesting to know ahead of time.

The last time I checked most power pitchers and good pitchers fall a bit to the 1st base side? Not Hop forward to the plate?

Look at Goose Gossage....

Chris, your cupping the wrist is in part a byproduct of getting your arm up way to early with no external rotation. Which causes one to push the ball instead of throw it. fingers behind wrist, you cant because your so dead set on doing so many things just flat out wrong. The handbreak does more than just take the hands apart. Good pitchers are throwing the ball from the time the hands break, there using the distance in which the arms do move to build momentum, you dont.. Therefore your about as efficient in this regard as a drinking glass with no bottom in it.Its frusterating to see somebody be so wrong and not know it. DO you read the stuff you write? Which I guess really wouldnt matter to much because you just flat out do not know what the hell it is you are looking at. Another hint 6-9 months is not even CLOSE to being long enough to learn this stuff. The vast majority of these people have been going at it for over 20 years. Thats AFTER our playing days were over, your playing days never began. Stick to elevators and whatever else it is that you do, you sound like a success story in those areas. Here your an embarrassment to say the least. Sorry but at least Im honest in my opinions. I honestly have never in my life witnessed a person be so wrong but at the same time so serious. I did read on another site that you have turned into "eteamz featuring chris oleary a Marshall advocate" where you actually liked a kids delivery, R.S. to be exact. Id suggest you study EXACTLEY what he does for the next 3 years and then report back. By then perhaps you will have a slight clue. Again sorry for the roughness,aw not really! I will give you some kudos for having some major stones though anybody that would post that mess you call a pitch be it whatever time of the year has definately got some guts!

Whoa Polish stepped up to the plate and hit a grand slam!!!

PUT IT ON THE BOOOOAAARRRDDD!!!!

quote:

DO you read the stuff you write?

Yes. We just have a difference of opinion when it comes to what ideal mechanics look like?

I did learn a lot from looking at JS's motion. However, he does have some problems (e.g. jerking the head) that others (e.g. bbscout)also think is generally problematic. See this (active) thread...

http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1491034941/m/3381067151

I'd love to hear your .02

Difference of opinion is putting it mildly. you would do well to heed Jasons advice. Look what these guys do right instead of harping on what you may THINK is wrong.

One other question Chris, why highjack every site on the net? Steve Ellis too now? Why not do your stuff on your own site if its good people will flock to you and become "olearyites", man if that aint a scary scary thought nothing is. You have not a clue what it takes to compete at a high level in regards to pitching. You have less of a clue in regards to training. Of course this is only my opinion but beings Ive been around and actively involved with this for over 20 years I feel some sense of validity when I say it, and even more when I read what you say in regards to both! Good luck with your son Chris, I can guarantee you he will need all he can get. One reason is he will have to overcome a huge barrier, his pitching coach. thats gonna be tough Im thinking very tough!

quote:

One other question Chris, why highjack every site on the net? Steve Ellis too now?

Steve asked me to become a moderator of his site after seeing and liking the analyses I put together.

Coach Chris, You are obviously an outstanding pitcher as indicated by your video,do you think you will be drafted,and if so which round?

quote:

Originally posted by Coach Chris:

quote:

Do you have any qualification to coach and instruct pitchers ?

I would note that Steve Ellis of has no problems with my credentials and qualifications. ?

----------------------------


Mike Marshall, whether you understand his approach, or like him or not, and due to his MLB pitching experiences and accolades, is a source of information. What's NOT clear, is whether Chris has traveled to Tampa, and met Marshall and completed his ~10 months of training.

Steve Ellis, on the other hand, a retired minor league "A" ball RHP (at age 23?), is also a source of information. And due to his retirement, desires to 'find himself' by hoping his new business become exciting yet profitable.

What I read from Chris's nine months of quals to obtain self proclaimed pitching credentials, I hear it's been difficult for Chris, as a parent, to choose legitimate sources, to lead his 11 y/o son in the right baseball direction.

Maybe it's time to take a poll of this web sites Baseball Dad's to understand and summarize their baseball experiences with their son as a Dad vs a Coach (whether part-time-FT). Is it time?

Regards,
Bear

Bear,

Dads only?

Just came across this thread and the video posted by Coach Chris. Best laugh I have had all day. This is the most unathletic example of throwing a baseball I have seen since my kid played t-ball.

Coach Chris, all this research and theorizing - I don't get it - seems like a lot of work. For what purpose? Let the 11 year old kids PLAY the game. Over time the cream will rise to the top. The athleticlly gifted players will move on to play at higher levels and receive progressively more experienced coaching. Those not so gifted will migrate to other activities. The kids that I have seen that went on to play college and pro baseball stood out when they were 6 - 8 - 10 years old. All this effort directed at grade school/middle school age kids is silly and potentially counterproductive. Relax, support the child. Enjoy the experience. Kids grow up fast and sooner or later they won't be playing baseball anymore anyway so take the pressure off and let them have some fun.