Marshall Pitching Motion

I sure was hoping for the "revised clip" that you offered.

Chris why am I not surprised.
Take a look at MLB draft guys and tell me how your video cpmpares.

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/events/draft/y2005/tr...ch.jsp?sc=round&sp=1

You say someone already has the right to that video ? Darn !

Coach Chris-

A lot of this "debate" could be put to rest if you'd post one thrower demonstrating the approved Marshal technique. IMO that posting any clips that are not illustrating the optimum Marshal style is only going to fuel the fire and elicit more condescending remarks, which will ultimately change the focus (once again) from the main topic.
I urge everyone to be accommodating in a dignified manner in order for this topic to come to fruition.

Following is JMHO. Where to start?

Leg lift is too low. Knee should come up until the upper leg is parallel to the ground.

The break occurs too soon. The break should initiate when the knee starts down after leg lift is completed.

The arm should not be fully extended on the way back. Rather, from the initiation of break, the forearm drops & then comes up in a circle to the high L position.

The arm & upper body are inverted during the forward delivery.

The follow through should be a little greater, but that may be an age related factor.

The hop after follow through is completed is unnecessary, and could be dangerous at HS levels and above. Hard to manuever when your feet are off the ground.

texan covered eerything and also there is wasted motion and you are dragging your arm it is not in the "L" position.

looks like a hitters park, short porch in right.

"Leg lift is too low. Knee should come up until the upper leg is parallel to the ground."

This is by design. You can get to the plate faster, without losing significant velocity, by eliminating the leg lift. It also reduces the likelihood that pitchers will introduce horizontal movement into their motion and lower their arm slot.
Major leaguers do a similar thing when they use the slide step. For instance, see the third clip of Jason Urdiqez that is at the top of this thread...

- Jason Urdiquez Thread


"The break occurs too soon. The break should initiate when the knee starts down after leg lift is completed. The arm should not be fully extended on the way back. Rather, from the initiation of break, the forearm drops & then comes up in a circle to the high L position."

This is by design. Studies show that a longer arm swing is correlated with a lower incidence of shoulder pain. Also, some major leaguers like Freddy Garcia get their arm up very early...

- Pitcher Analysis - Freddy Garcia


"The arm & upper body are inverted during the forward delivery."

Not sure what this means. If you mean that my hips aren't leading my shoulders, then I agree. Chalk it up to lack of practice and advancing age (I'm 38).


"The hop after follow through is completed is unnecessary, and could be dangerous at HS levels and above. Hard to manuever when your feet are off the ground."

The hop was more of a product of the wet ground than by design. However, if you are to be a good fielder, you have to finish in a strong fielding position (e.g. square to the plate). If you finish with your head down, you're vulnerable to getting beaned. If you finish facing 1B, then you're vulnerable to a bunt down 3B.

quote:

texan covered eerything and also there is wasted motion and you are dragging your arm it is not in the "L" position.

Not coming to the L position is by design. It eliminates two problems called Reverse Pitching Forearm Bounce and Pitching Forearm Flyout that destroy the elbows of many major league (and other) pitchers.

In this clip I am not doing the arm action the way Dr. Marshall wants me to once my shoulders start turning.

The best way to explain what I should be doing is that I should be leading with my elbow as I start turning my shoulders.

I will try to post a clip of what this looks like if I get the chance.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach Chris:...If you finish facing 1B, then you're vulnerable to a bunt down 3B.

And you'll throw a couple of miles per hour faster.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach Chris:

...Not coming to the L position is by design. It eliminates two problems called Reverse Pitching Forearm Bounce and Pitching Forearm Flyout that destroy the elbows of many major league (and other) pitchers...

Don't forget to add that it reduces velocity also.

Cap_n asked for a clip of someone using Marshall's technique. I take it we aren't going to get it?

My HS soph son can get to the plate in 1.3 seconds (first move to catchers mitt), from the stretch. Bear in mind, he isn't yet throwing in the mid to high 80's. And that is with a leg lift that comes up until the upper leg is parallel to the ground. As he gains velocity and gets stronger, that time will come on down.

The slide step is not necessary for a quick move to the plate. And the slide step does require pitchers to have two sets of mechanics. The timing is far different for the slide step than without. A quick leg lift and efficient mechanics are all that is needed for a quick time to the plate. Timing starts once the leg (knee) starts to go down. A quick leg lift, therefore, will not affect timing of the break, etc.

I have yet to see a youth pitcher in the slide step who didn't give up velocity and control with the slide step. Of course the slide step can be used successfully. Not arguing that. But it takes a great deal of work over a long period of time, over and above the normal progression of pitching.

But you appeared to be doing the slide step out of a windup. Never seen that before.

And the presence or absence of a slide step has absoutely nothing to do with arm slot.

There better be some horizontal movement in the mechanics. The lack of hip rotation in your demo certainly does rob power.

The clip in the other thread to which you referred here bears little resemblance to your clip in this thread.

I would have to see the study on a straight back arm having any effect on shoulder pain. If anything, it places more stress on the rotator cuff and triceps than the simple arm circle. You can feel this on your own, if you try it.

Inversion: your head is tilted toward first base and your [edit here for clarity] upper arm isn't parallel to the ground, the arm is tilted along with your head.

With good hip rotation, the body will be at least square to the plate. Some pitchers a little more.

quote:

And you'll throw a couple of miles per hour faster.

Not necessarily. Last time I checked, Roger Clemens threw pretty hard...

- Pitcher Analysis - Roger Clemens

And you might just end up on your way to the HOF and with 14 gold gloves like Greg Maddux...

- Pitcher Analysis - Greg Maddux

Do you really think posting links to your reports gives your posts some credibility? Isn't kind of like saying it twice? We heard you the first time.

And your clip.......well, it speaks much louder than your reports. And, until you post a different one, this is our "Marshall" example.

You might want to quit trying to be a pitcher and clean up your yard.

Coach Chris

Shepster is totally overwhelmed at the amount of excellent work you put into the 47 pages of Roger C. analysis!!!! Didn't get to Maddux yet but will...

Great deal of Work Sir.

You "truly" love this game, don't cha???

How many total analysis books have you composed?

Must have taken you a while. How many hours?


Shep Cares

quote:

Originally posted by Coach Chris:

quote:

And you'll throw a couple of miles per hour faster.

Not necessarily. Last time I checked, Roger Clemens threw pretty hard...

- Pitcher Analysis - Roger Clemens

And you might just end up on your way to the HOF and with 14 gold gloves like Greg Maddux...

- Pitcher Analysis - Greg Maddux

Looks to me like Clemens hip rotation takes him past square. At least from the photo in your report.

And your Maddux report doesn't show how he ends up after landing.

Pulling the glove back behind the body does entail a little longer reaction time to the combacker. But it does accomplish two important things. Clearing the glove side shoulder dramatically reduces stress on the throwing arm during deceleration. And by allowing the arm more time until the onset of deceleration, the arm velocity is greater through the period of release. A tradeoff, but a worthwhile one.

I appreciate the lack of ridicule. It shows self-confidence and class.


"The slide step is not necessary for a quick move to the plate. And the slide step does require pitchers to have two sets of mechanics. The timing is far different for the slide step than without...But you appeared to be doing the slide step out of a windup. Never seen that before."

The advantage of using the Wind-Up Set position that I use in the clip is that you can use it with runners on base or not.


"I have yet to see a youth pitcher in the slide step who didn't give up velocity and control with the slide step. Of course the slide step can be used successfully. Not arguing that. But it takes a great deal of work over a long period of time, over and above the normal progression of pitching."

Agreed. But I would argue that this is due to lack of practice rather than an inherent problem with the slide step.


"And the presence or absence of a slide step has absoutely nothing to do with arm slot."

Not necessarily. If you go from the standard Set position (and the Wind-Up position as well), the temptation exists to "reach back" and/or reverse-rotate the shoulders. If you do this then you will tend to flatten out the take-back side of the arm path which will then flatten out the arm path through the release point. The way to get a more vertical arm slot is to break and take back your hands in a more vertical manner.


"There better be some horizontal movement in the mechanics. The lack of hip rotation in your demo certainly does rob power."

I agree that there has to be a horizontal rotation of the hips and shoulders. My relative lack of it, and more importantly my lack of separation between my hips and shoulders (due to some back problems), will limit my velocity. Not so coincidentally, it also limits the length of my drives in golf.


"I would have to see the study on a straight back arm having any effect on shoulder pain."

The name of the study is "Effect of Pitch Type, Pitch Count, and Pitching Mechanics on Risk of Elbow and Shoulder Pain in Youth Baseball Pitchers." See the last full paragraph on page 465 where they state "Two other flaws, a long arm swing and arm ahead of the body at the time of ball release, correlated with a decreased risk of shoulder pain." The use of the term "flaw" is deceptive. It just means that what they found didn't correlate with what they were looking for, not that it has any negative impact on performance (as Freddy Garcia demonstrates). You can find it on your own via Google or at...

- Effect of Pitch Type...


"If anything, it places more stress on the rotator cuff and triceps than the simple arm circle. You can feel this on your own, if you try it."

This only causes problems if you move your hand behind your back (what Dr. Marshall calls the Acromial Plane) rather than straight back toward 2B. As an example of what not to do, see frame 2.1 of my breakdown of the motion of Don Drysdale (who retired due to shoulder problems)...

- Pitcher Analysis - Don Drysdale


"Inversion: your head is tilted toward first base and your forearm isn't at 90 degrees to the ground, it is tilted along with your head."

This is to a large degree by design. Balls that are released with a vertical forearm, and as high as possible, are generally harder to hit. The way to achieve this is to sharply tilt the shoulders.

If you believe that most major league pitchers release the ball with their elbow bent 90 degrees, then you are falling victim to a common misconception. The reality is that pitchers' forearms fly out as their shoulders turn such that their forearms in line with their upper arms. For an axample of this, see frame 26.1 of by breakdown of Steve Carlton's motion...

- Pitcher Analysis - Steve Carlton


"With good hip rotation, the body will be at least square to the plate. Some pitchers a little more."

Agreed. However, for this to be possible you must take a shorter stride than many recommend (which is something that I do in the clip).

"Looks to me like Clemens hip rotation takes him past square. At least from the photo in your report."

It does, but not too much. There are other hard throwers who still finished up square to the plate.


"And your Maddux report doesn't show how he ends up after landing."

I'm trying to find more complete pictures. In the meantime, check out bbscout's (great) clip of Greg Maddux...

- Greg Maddux Clip


"Pulling the glove back behind the body does entail a little longer reaction time to the combacker. But it does accomplish two important things. Clearing the glove side shoulder dramatically reduces stress on the throwing arm during deceleration. And by allowing the arm more time until the onset of deceleration, the arm velocity is greater through the period of release. A tradeoff, but a worthwhile one."

I do agree that the longer deceleration path of the arm, the better.

However, the success of many successful major leaguers makes it clear that you don't have to finish with your glove-side arm behind your body to prevent injuries to the rear part of the rotator cuff. Given that, I recommend that pitchers finish in a strong fielding position, as long as doing so doesn't cause them to abbreviate the deceleration path of the arm.

This "windup set" will be slow to the plate, even combined with the slide step. It has to be, as the body must rotate. In the stretch, the shoulders and hips are already properly aligned.

If using windup & stretch is a problem (e.g., too much variation), then a pitcher can throw only from the stretch (as some do).

The different slide step mechanics do violate the KISS principle. And from that standpoint there is an inherent problem.

Flail and arm slots are not linked. Pitchers can flail and use any arm slot.

Regarding your study, correlation does not mean causality. And again, all you have to do is feel it yourself. Even with no flail at all, a person can feel greater stress in the rotator cuff and triceps when taking the arm back fully extended as opposed to arm circles. I certainly can feel it. Have you tried it?

What you are describing in your response to the inversion is the "overhead" slot (arm fully extended up to the sky). Not the "overhand" (upper arm parallel to the ground, foream 90 degrees to the ground).

The overhead slot is very stressful on the shoulder. I can't think of a young pitcher I coached who used the overhead slot that didn't have shoulder pain. I always advised them to go to overhand. The ones that went from overhead to overhand saw the pain go away.

And yes, there will be a greater down angle on the pitch. But there will be less horizontal movement on the ball. The overhead pitchers I have seen tend to throw straight & flat. This is easier to hit, even with the added down angle, compared to the pitches from other arm slots that may have slightly less angle but significantly more movement in the horizontal plane.

And with regard to where the forearm is at release, many pitchers use the three quarter slot. Not even overhand, much less overhead.

"Shepster is totally overwhelmed at the amount of excellent work you put into the 47 pages of Roger C. analysis!!!!"

Don't take the multiple views of the same point as redundant. Instead, take it as a powerful statement of how consistent Clemens is.

In fact, this isn't a scientifically-validated statement, but I believe that the motions of better pitches are easier to sequence because they are more consistent.


"Great Work Sir."

Thanks.


"You "truly" love this game, don't cha???"

Yes. But I also love it warts and all and believe it could be better.


"How many total analysis books have you composed?"

I am up to 30 or so and have about 10 more in progress. I just posted a new one of Cliff Politte.


"Must have taken you a while. How many hours?"

I would rather not think about it.

Having said that, out of curiosity I just bought a copy of Tom House's book "The Picture Perfect Pitcher." I would submit that if you bound the analyses that I have done into a book, you would have something that is much more valuable.

I am thinking about approaching a publisher with the idea of turning them into a book.

Would you buy a copy?

quote:

Originally posted by Coach Chris:
I do agree that the longer deceleration path of the arm, the better.

However, the success of many successful major leaguers makes it clear that you don't have to finish with your glove-side arm behind your body to prevent injuries to the rear part of the rotator cuff. Given that, I recommend that pitchers finish in a strong fielding position, as long as doing so doesn't cause them to abbreviate the deceleration path of the arm.

I guess it comes down to whether you are more interested in being the best pitcher possible, or the best fielder.

Leaving the glove in front does put greater stress on the shoulder and it does reduce the rotational velocity. Those two items are very fundamental. You're willing to have your pitchers give those things up, I am not. We will just disagree on that one.

Coach Chris,

First, I would like to say that you have obviously spent a lot of time researching and putting together all of those pictures. Thanks for sharing them with us.

However, if no successful pitcher has ever thrown in the manner that Mike Marshall describes, then I think it is unreasonable to think that anyone ever will. Why waste so much time trying to develop these new mechanics when they are based completely on theory. From someone who studies mathematics and physics on a daily basis, I know that theories are easy to create but very difficult to prove. In fact, most theories turn out to be completely wrong. How do you know that this theory will be different? There is no proof that it will work. If no one has ever been able to throw in exactly the manner that Marshall suggests, how do you know that the arm won't be injured once someone is finally able to master this technique.

There is proof that the current mechanics used by the best in the game of baseball works. This proof comes from their ability to throw with great velocity and get the best hitters in the game out. Data helps to prove the current pitching process.

I don't think you can make the arguement about your mechanics reducing injury until you know for sure that this motion will reduce injuries. And you won't know this until someone can actually master this throwing process. The bottom line is, you will never eliminate the threat of injury from pitching/throwing. It is one of, if not the. most explosive acts (in terms of energy) the human body is capable of. You can change pitching mechanics all you want, but you can't eliminate the possibility of injuries.

With that said, I agree that something has to be done to help decrease the number of injuries that are currently present in baseball, and I think Mike Marshall is on the right track in regards to his training techniques. Pitchers are undertrained in today's game, and some form of the training that Marshall suggests is bound to help this situation. It is my understanding that his students train very hard, and in my opinion this is the first step to increase performance and decrease injuries.

Just my opinion.

Take care.

I can appreciate some of what Rocket is saying. But I do wonder what are "the current mechanics used by the best"? There is a great variety of mechanics used by different pitchers.

If what Coach Chris is expounding upon is Marshall's current teaching, I can't go along with it.

When analyzed from the standpoint of physics & biomechanics (I'm with Rocket here), they don't add up.

I assume what we are discussing here is what mechanics should be taught to young pitchers. There are many successful and varied styles among pro pitchers. But what do we teach young pitchers? IMHO, keep it simple. Each added motion is something to go out of tune. Basic, fundamental mechanics. Mechanics that make sense when analyzed from the standpoint of physics and biomechanics.

Yes Chris without a doubt.

Shep would buy a copy.

Let me know when it happens and how I can buy it.

Sincerely,
RS

"This 'windup set' will be slow to the plate, even combined with the slide step. It has to be, as the body must rotate. In the stretch, the shoulders and hips are already properly aligned."

I will grant you that it will likely be slower to the plate than a slide step from the Set position. However, since it eliminates the knee lift I would argue that it's probably no slower than going from the standard Set position with a knee lift.

What's more, going from the Wind-Up Set position gives you several advantages over both the slide step and going from the standard Set position.

1. You don't have your back to the runner.

2. You can move to 1B faster. Just step and throw.

3. It changes the read. No more going or getting back depending on what knee cracks.

All of this will tend to hold runners closer to the bag.


"If using windup & stretch is a problem (e.g., too much variation), then a pitcher can throw only from the stretch (as some do)."

Agreed. I do this right now with my guys who use the traditional pitching motion.


"The different slide step mechanics do violate the KISS principle. And from that standpoint there is an inherent problem."

Agreed. This is especially a problem with younger pitchers.


"Flail and arm slots are not linked. Pitchers can flail and use any arm slot."

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by the term "flail". Please elaborate.


"Regarding your study, correlation does not mean causality. And again, all you have to do is feel it yourself. Even with no flail at all, a person can feel greater stress in the rotator cuff and triceps when taking the arm back fully extended as opposed to arm circles. I certainly can feel it. Have you tried it?"

Yes, and it doesn't cause me any discomfort if I bring my arm out in line with my shoulders (and I do it routinely now). Did you ever have any shoulder problems in the past? That could be part of the problem. Otherwise, you could be confusing discomfort due to soreness (due to using new muscles) that will go away over time with something that consistently causes pain.


"The overhead slot is very stressful on the shoulder. I can't think of a young pitcher I coached who used the overhead slot that didn't have shoulder pain. I always advised them to go to overhand. The ones that went from overhead to overhand saw the pain go away."

This is a very widely-held misconception.

What about Sandy Koufax? He pitched from a very high arm slot and never had shoulder problems.

This is safe as long as you tilt the shoulders so that the pitching arm side elbow doesn't go significantly above the plane of the shoulders (aka abduction < 100 degrees).


"But there will be less horizontal movement on the ball."

Precisely. Research into the human perceptual system indicates that people have the hardest timing judging the motion of an object that is moving at them in a purely vertical manner. This explains why the hardest ball for an outfielder to catch is one hit directly at them, why the hardest curveball to hit is a 12-6, and the illusion of the rising fastball. For more information Google "illusion rising fastball" or go to...

- Rising Fastball Presentation


"And with regard to where the forearm is at release, many pitchers use the three quarter slot. Not even overhand, much less overhead."

But that doesn't mean it's the best slot to use. Again, look at Sandy Koufax.

"I guess it comes down to whether you are more interested in being the best pitcher possible, or the best fielder."

Of course it's critical to be the best pitcher. However, many guys are worse fielders than they need to be.


"Leaving the glove in front does put greater stress on the shoulder..."

While I'm thrilled that you care about injury prevention, I think (but don't know) you're wrong about this.

I'd love to see a study that backs up this idea.


"Leaving the glove in front...does reduce the rotational velocity."

Actually, the laws of physics say just the opposite.

The relevant concept is called conservation of angular momentum and explains why ice skaters spin faster when they pull their arms in to their bodies than when they have the extended out at theit sides. Pulling the glove in to the pec actually allows the shoulders to spin faster than does flying open with it.

Coach Chris

My LINUX FIREWALL SYSTEM put in by my first cousin John "Maddog" Hall, detected possible virus in the last link you posted so I didn't download to harddrive.

Sorry, just not a risk worth taking even though red flag may be totally harmless and I apologize in advance if it is just pre-cautionary but hasn't happened with any other of your links so makes me curious???!!!

Sup???!!!
Shep
Link of Red Flag>Rising Fastball Presentaion

"However, if no successful pitcher has ever thrown in the manner that Mike Marshall describes, then I think it is unreasonable to think that anyone ever will. Why waste so much time trying to develop these new mechanics when they are based completely on theory. From someone who studies mathematics and physics on a daily basis, I know that theories are easy to create but very difficult to prove."

Why is this worth trying? Two words: Local Maximum. I am a student of innovation, and one thing I have learned is that in many cases systems settle into states that are better than the (near) alternative but not as good as they could be. It's hard as he!! for products and markets to break out of local maximae (due to things like sunk costs), but that's not the case when it comes to pitching.

Don't think that's enough? Then I have two more words for you: Fosbury Flop. Dick Fosbury wqas widely ridiculed for how he got over the high jump bar. Until he starting kicking everyone's butts.


"In fact, most theories turn out to be completely wrong. How do you know that this theory will be different? There is no proof that it will work. If no one has ever been able to throw in exactly the manner that Marshall suggests, how do you know that the arm won't be injured once someone is finally able to master this technique."

While Dr. Marshall's motion in its entirety is new, I find many examples of people that do parts of what he advocates and that were successful as a result. One person is Dr. Marshall himself. Even back in 1974, his mechanics were very different (and influenced by the work he was doing.) Javelin throwers also do things that resemble what Dr. Marshall is talking about. Third, there are many major leaguers out there who do things that correspond to what Dr. Marshall is advocating (e.g. Freddy Garcia gets him pitching arm up sooner than do most people). Finally, there is a guy in the Phillies system named Josh Outman who uses a motion that was designed independently of Dr. Marshall's efforts but that shares many common characteristics. I always find examples like that of convergent evolution to be interesting.


"There is proof that the current mechanics used by the best in the game of baseball works. This proof comes from their ability to throw with great velocity and get the best hitters in the game out. Data helps to prove the current pitching process."

But there is also proof that it destroys most of their arms.

In my study, what I'm interested in are the outliers; guys who are either far more, or far less, injury prone. Some say that these differences are due to luck or conditioning. I think it might be due to more than that.


"I don't think you can make the arguement about your mechanics reducing injury until you know for sure that this motion will reduce injuries. And you won't know this until someone can actually master this throwing process."

Agreed. The lack of independent validation is a major problem with Dr. Marshall's current approach.


"The bottom line is, you will never eliminate the threat of injury from pitching/throwing. It is one of, if not the, most explosive acts (in terms of energy) the human body is capable of. You can change pitching mechanics all you want, but you can't eliminate the possibility of injuries."

Well, Tom Seaver and Nolan Ryan suggests you might be able to eliminate the risk. Even if you can't, then reducing the risk is sufficiently worth it for many major league teams to be interested in the idea. They are getting tired of paying guys millions of dollars to sit on the bench.


"It is my understanding that his students train very hard, and in my opinion this is the first step to increase performance and decrease injuries."

I agree. I don't think it's a coincidence that Nolan Ryan and Tom Seaver were freaks about conditioning. In fact, before he even talks about pitching, Tom Seaver first talks about conditioning in his book. However, I don't think conditioning explains everything.

Coach Chris

Slow down a minute and respond to my last post.

Regain my confidence please..

RS

I assume you're talking about this file...

http://www.sie.arizona.edu/sysengr/slides/risingFastball.ppt

For one thing, it's not my file. It's someone else's. I just posted the link to it to be helpful.

Having said that, I just scanned it with McAfee Virus Scan and didn't find anything.

Yea, I've heard that one before!

It's not mine so I'm not responsible.

Good Night Chris>

Will Still buy your book though but you should not post any link that might crash somebody's harddrive. Ck it out thoroughly first.

No hard feelings, okay?

Shep Still Cares

"Seriously, CoachChris, pay the fee to take your 6 & 10 year-olds to a known pitching instructor. The arm you save, may be your son's."

It's funny that you say this, since this is part of how I got started on this.

Last year the parents of 4 of my guys each paid $40 bucks per session for their sons to work with a local pitching coach. I was too cheap, so I taught my son myself.

Over the course of the season the 4 guys who went to the coach got worse (one went from giving me 2 or 3 good innings to not being able to throw strikes) while my son got better (gave up just 1 earned run and 2 hits in 3.5 innings during the the playoffs).

That's when I realized that a lot of the "experts" don't know what the he)( they're talking about and I ought to educate myself.

quote:

but you should not post any link that might crash somebody's harddrive. Ck it out thoroughly first.

There's no reason why this file would crash your hard drive. I've opened it multiple times on multiple computers and have never had a problem.

I have also downloaded it at work through our firewalls (which are incredibly tight given that we deal with VERY sensitive data) and they never gave off a peep.

What your firewall probably didn't like were some embedded equations and Visio diagrams.

"I am confused by your video. Has Mike Marshall viewed it? If so, does he like having his name attached to that video?"

Yes, he has seen it. He thinks I do some things right but need to work on some other things.


"Does he really want the ball taken out of the glove that early."

Yes. In fact, this is one of the things that Dr. Marshall thinks I do well. The reason is that breaking the hands this early reduces the strain on the shoulder (among other things). Dr. Marshall refers to this as the Crow-Hop Rhythm (as in the crow hops that outfielders and some infielders use when throwing).


"What is the purpose of the Wind-up/set position."

First, to reduce the temptation to take the ball laterally behind the body (which ultimately lowers the arm slot). Second, to make it easier to hold runners onto 1B.

Blues are going to categorize your mechanics as "windup". As you read the rule book, you will see that they must. So as soon as the free foot swings in back of the rubber, the runner is gone. And the pitcher is committed to deliver to the plate. And runners will be loving it. Why do you think that pitchers use the stretch instead of the windup with runners on?

In reality, they will start going as soon as the foot moves back at all. And if the free foot is going back, and then it starts toward first the pitcher may well get a balk call.

Flail is taking the arm back farther than a line drawn from HP to 2B. Over rotation after break.

I am talking about feeling stress - tension if you will - in the shoulder and triceps. Not pain or discomfort. And if you don't feel it, then you would be the first person I've had try the demonstration that did not. And that is possible, but not likely. And no, I have not had shoulder problems.

I'm sorry, but you cannot say that my observation on the overhead slot is a misconception. I have seen way, way too much empirical evidence. And a knowledge of biomechanics provides the theoretical explanation.

First. Sandy's shoulders were tilted significantly. This lessened the angle between the torso & arm. Second, just because a pitcher who did use the overhead slot didn't go down with a shoulder injury does not mean it was less stressful.

It sounds as though you want to teach an overhand slot, but with inversion in an attempt to simulate overhead.

You might want to read Adair's book on the physics of baseball to fully understand the outfielder's judging of the ball. This concept is being somewhat misapplied here.

I can tell you that from years of watching baseball, pitchers who throw straight tend to get whiplash when they go up against good hitters. And I don't think you are considering reaction times and late movement (e.g., as with a good two seam). Late movement is tough because while the eyes might recognize the movement, the body has already committed to a swing based on an earlier perception of the ball's path. And it cannot react quickly enough with adequate control to adjust.

And if you want to use a pro to justify an arm slot, you may have noticed that Clemens uses the three quarter.

We as coaches must remember that often the pros succeed in spite of things in their mechanics. Not because of them. They have so much incredible talent to have made it that far, that they can overcome these things.

Do you teach the Marichal leg kick? Why not? He was a great pitcher. Do you teach the Tekulve (sp?) submarine slot? Why not? He was very successful.

Again, are we talking about what to teach youth pitchers? Analyze the mechanics in the light of physics and biomechanics. And keep it fundamental.

And pulling the elbow back as the throwing arm goes forward increases rotational speed. It is providing a force acting to rotate the torso. Leaving the glove tucked does not provide this force. And I never said the glove arm had to be fully extended in front of the body nor that it would fly out. I don't teach that. The upper arm should be parallel to the ground, and the forearm hanging down at 90 degrees. Then the elbow is pulled back. So now, the laws of physics do not say the opposite of what I am describing. You are ignoring the rotational force applied by pulling the elbow back.

I think we have just about beat this one to death.

I do hope that if you are coaching youth pitchers, you will reconsider what you are describing here.

"If that video represents your idea of proper pitching mechanics you are misrepresenting yourself. Ie taking money under false pretenses."

For the moment at least, when I evaluate pitchers I do it relative to major leaguers. I tell people where and how their motions resemble (and differ from) those of...

1. Pitchers like Nolan Ryan who had long, injury-free careers.

2. Pitchers like Bobby Madritsch who had short, injury-plagued careers.

So far, people have been very satisfied with what they have received from me.


"No set position..."

Actually, I am in what the rules define as a legal starting point for the Wind-Up Position.


"...and I believe what you show is a balk."

What I do in the clip, while untraditional, is perfectly legal according to the rules of baseball.

If I wanted to throw to 1B, I would just step toward 1B with my glove side foot and then throw the ball.


"No leg lift"

By design. The truth is that the leg lift if not nearly as important as some people think when it comes to generating power.


"...no balance point"

By design. One of the problems with coming to the traditional balance point is the problem of rushing; too many guys break their hands late and end up missing up and in because their arm is late in getting around. The advantage of Dr. Marshall's approach is that it completely eliminates the problem of rushing since much of his approach is built around the idea of getting the pitching arm up early.


"You argue with a scout and several people on here that know what they are talking about from years of experience. STOP and listen to expert advise."

All I can say to this "Moneyball." In that (great) book, Billy Beane has a lot to say about the limitations of how scouts currently think about evaluating talent.


"I had a chat last week wuth a guy from South Africa whos's son is a 6'5" RHP. He has been here for years and would listen to no one. He knew it all based on Cricket. Trying to compare a cricket bowlers arm action to a BB pitcher. He even complain to a local organization about his current coach making his son do long toss etc."

Actually, I'm very interested in the sport of Cricket (just learned in in CanCun while on vacation) because Cricket bowlers suffer far lower rates of elbow and shoulder injuries.


"He knew what was best. It was so rediculous you couldn't talk to him."

Have you ever considered that maybe he was right and that you were wrong?


"You are not quite that bad but right up there.
Do youself a favour and learn before you teach. You owe it to your students."

Talk to anyone who knows me and they will tell you that I will always listen to people who say things that are backed up by sound science.

However, I reserve the right to ignore people who say things only on the basis of 1) what they were told 2) what "everybody" does 3) what they think is true. I also have a low opinion of people who only care about performance (regardless of the injury implications).

"Blues are going to categorize your mechanics as 'windup'. As you read the rule book, you will see that they must."

Agreed.


"So as soon as the free foot swings in back of the rubber, the runner is gone."

As I demonstrate in the clip, there is no swing of the free (or glove-side) foot. Instead, as the rules allow, you start with the glove-side foot on the rubber. From that point on, all of your motion is directed forward toward Home Plate.


"In reality, they will start going as soon as the foot moves back at all. And if the free foot is going back, and then it starts toward first the pitcher may well get a balk call."

Ah, but as I show the free/glove-side foot doesn't move back. It just moves forward.


"Flail is taking the arm back farther than a line drawn from HP to 2B. Over rotation after break."

If I understand what you are saying, then I think it's a bad idea because it will stress the muscles at the front of the rotator cuff. Also, it's not something that guys like Ryan and Clemens do.


"I am talking about feeling stress - tension if you will - in the shoulder and triceps. Not pain or discomfort. And if you don't feel it, then you would be the first person I've had try the demonstration that did not. And that is possible, but not likely. And no, I have not had shoulder problems."

But this stress isn't necessarily a sign that you are doing something wrong. Just that you are doing something different. It will quickly go away.


"First. Sandy's shoulders were tilted significantly."

Agreed.


"Second, just because a pitcher who did use the overhead slot didn't go down with a shoulder injury does not mean it was less stressful."

I don't see how this follows. If it was stressful (in a negative, injury-producing sense) then it would have caused him shoulder problems. Since he didn't have shoulder problems, then you have to conclude that it's not stressful (at least how he did it).

I am very familiar with the concept of impingement syndrome, which may be what you are alluding to. However, the fact is that, if you tilt the shoulders significantly (as Koufax did) and keep the pitching arm side elbow at or below the level of the shoulders (e.g. abduction < 100 degrees), then you do not run the risk of impingement. Impingement is only a risk when the pitching arm side elbow is moved significantly above and behind the level of the shoulders.


"You might want to read Adair's book on the physics of baseball to fully understand the outfielder's judging of the ball. This concept is being somewhat misapplied here."

I have and he doesn't really deal with this topic. This is more a problem of the perceptual system rather than the physics of the ball. It also doesn't have anything to do with aerodynamics.


"I can tell you that from years of watching baseball, pitchers who throw straight tend to get whiplash when they go up against good hitters."

Agreed. That's why you have to change speeds and drop the bottom out of the ball every once in a while.


"And I don't think you are considering reaction times and late movement (e.g., as with a good two seam)."

The research indicates that a 2-seam fastball doesn't really sink (otherwise it would be a slider) and a 4-seam fastball doesn't really rise. Instead, the seams of a 4-seam fastball (completely counterintuitively) generate less drag and more lift, so a 4-seamer appears to rise. What is actually happening is that a 4-seamer drops less than does a 2-seamer, which is what makes a 4-seamer seem to rise and a 2-seamer seem to sink.

It's all relative.


"Late movement is tough because while the eyes might recognize the movement, the body has already committed to a swing based on an earlier perception of the ball's path. And it cannot react quickly enough with adequate control to adjust."

Agreed. That's why curveballs are so hard to hit. However, the research indicates that you are better able to disguise this late break (which only seems like a late break but actually isn't) if the ball is moving in a more vertical plane.


"And if you want to use a pro to justify an arm slot, you may have noticed that Clemens uses the three quarter."

Agreed. He's even a little flatter than that lately.


"Do you teach the Marichal leg kick? Why not? He was a great pitcher."

No, because it violates the KISS principle. Just because he (and Dontrelle) could do it, doesn't mean that most people could.


"Do you teach the Tekulve (sp?) submarine slot? Why not? He was very successful."

No, because it is generally harder for people to master. If you don't throw pure submarine, you run the risk of throwing sidearm which I think is generally the worst option.


"And pulling the elbow back as the throwing arm goes forward increases rotational speed. It is providing a force acting to rotate the torso."

Agreed. However, you'll kill all of this momentum if you then let the glove fly out.


"Leaving the glove tucked does not provide this force."

Agreed. But keeping the glove tucked in keeps this force from being dissipated.


"The upper arm should be parallel to the ground,..."

Strongly agree. This allows you to apply the force perpendicular to the axis of rotation of the shoulders (which is most efficient).


"...and the forearm hanging down at 90 degrees."

Strongly disagree. If you do this, then you will not apply force perpendicular to the axis of rotation of the shoulders. Instead, this energy will be dissipated in bending the body forward.


"Then the elbow is pulled back. So now, the laws of physics do not say the opposite of what I am describing. You are ignoring the rotational force applied by pulling the elbow back."

But if the elbow is hanging down vertically from the elbow, then you have a lot of the mass (e.g. the glove and the forearm) away from the axis of rotation, which will reduce the rate at which your shoulders can rotate. If you instead pull the glove into the pec (while leaving the glove side elbow out at the same level as the shoulders) then more of the mass is moved closer to the axis of rotation and the rate of rotation will be greater.

This isn't just me spouting off. This is what Nolan Ryan actually did.

It's the video...I think it can make pitchers go blind.

Chris, your essentially finished before you even start to throw the ball. You are cupping your wrist badly which basically kills all your chances to throw before you even throw. If that is what Marhall advocates than EVERYSINGLE derogatory staement that has been made is true. Because in truth that whole deal sucks and not just a little either, its bad, real bad!!!