Marshall Pitching Motion

I sure was hoping for the "revised clip" that you offered.

Chris why am I not surprised.
Take a look at MLB draft guys and tell me how your video cpmpares.

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/events/draft/y2005/tr...ch.jsp?sc=round&sp=1

You say someone already has the right to that video ? Darn !

Coach Chris-

A lot of this "debate" could be put to rest if you'd post one thrower demonstrating the approved Marshal technique. IMO that posting any clips that are not illustrating the optimum Marshal style is only going to fuel the fire and elicit more condescending remarks, which will ultimately change the focus (once again) from the main topic.
I urge everyone to be accommodating in a dignified manner in order for this topic to come to fruition.

Following is JMHO. Where to start?

Leg lift is too low. Knee should come up until the upper leg is parallel to the ground.

The break occurs too soon. The break should initiate when the knee starts down after leg lift is completed.

The arm should not be fully extended on the way back. Rather, from the initiation of break, the forearm drops & then comes up in a circle to the high L position.

The arm & upper body are inverted during the forward delivery.

The follow through should be a little greater, but that may be an age related factor.

The hop after follow through is completed is unnecessary, and could be dangerous at HS levels and above. Hard to manuever when your feet are off the ground.

texan covered eerything and also there is wasted motion and you are dragging your arm it is not in the "L" position.

looks like a hitters park, short porch in right.

"Leg lift is too low. Knee should come up until the upper leg is parallel to the ground."

This is by design. You can get to the plate faster, without losing significant velocity, by eliminating the leg lift. It also reduces the likelihood that pitchers will introduce horizontal movement into their motion and lower their arm slot.
Major leaguers do a similar thing when they use the slide step. For instance, see the third clip of Jason Urdiqez that is at the top of this thread...

- Jason Urdiquez Thread


"The break occurs too soon. The break should initiate when the knee starts down after leg lift is completed. The arm should not be fully extended on the way back. Rather, from the initiation of break, the forearm drops & then comes up in a circle to the high L position."

This is by design. Studies show that a longer arm swing is correlated with a lower incidence of shoulder pain. Also, some major leaguers like Freddy Garcia get their arm up very early...

- Pitcher Analysis - Freddy Garcia


"The arm & upper body are inverted during the forward delivery."

Not sure what this means. If you mean that my hips aren't leading my shoulders, then I agree. Chalk it up to lack of practice and advancing age (I'm 38).


"The hop after follow through is completed is unnecessary, and could be dangerous at HS levels and above. Hard to manuever when your feet are off the ground."

The hop was more of a product of the wet ground than by design. However, if you are to be a good fielder, you have to finish in a strong fielding position (e.g. square to the plate). If you finish with your head down, you're vulnerable to getting beaned. If you finish facing 1B, then you're vulnerable to a bunt down 3B.

quote:

texan covered eerything and also there is wasted motion and you are dragging your arm it is not in the "L" position.

Not coming to the L position is by design. It eliminates two problems called Reverse Pitching Forearm Bounce and Pitching Forearm Flyout that destroy the elbows of many major league (and other) pitchers.

In this clip I am not doing the arm action the way Dr. Marshall wants me to once my shoulders start turning.

The best way to explain what I should be doing is that I should be leading with my elbow as I start turning my shoulders.

I will try to post a clip of what this looks like if I get the chance.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach Chris:...If you finish facing 1B, then you're vulnerable to a bunt down 3B.

And you'll throw a couple of miles per hour faster.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach Chris:

...Not coming to the L position is by design. It eliminates two problems called Reverse Pitching Forearm Bounce and Pitching Forearm Flyout that destroy the elbows of many major league (and other) pitchers...

Don't forget to add that it reduces velocity also.

Cap_n asked for a clip of someone using Marshall's technique. I take it we aren't going to get it?

My HS soph son can get to the plate in 1.3 seconds (first move to catchers mitt), from the stretch. Bear in mind, he isn't yet throwing in the mid to high 80's. And that is with a leg lift that comes up until the upper leg is parallel to the ground. As he gains velocity and gets stronger, that time will come on down.

The slide step is not necessary for a quick move to the plate. And the slide step does require pitchers to have two sets of mechanics. The timing is far different for the slide step than without. A quick leg lift and efficient mechanics are all that is needed for a quick time to the plate. Timing starts once the leg (knee) starts to go down. A quick leg lift, therefore, will not affect timing of the break, etc.

I have yet to see a youth pitcher in the slide step who didn't give up velocity and control with the slide step. Of course the slide step can be used successfully. Not arguing that. But it takes a great deal of work over a long period of time, over and above the normal progression of pitching.

But you appeared to be doing the slide step out of a windup. Never seen that before.

And the presence or absence of a slide step has absoutely nothing to do with arm slot.

There better be some horizontal movement in the mechanics. The lack of hip rotation in your demo certainly does rob power.

The clip in the other thread to which you referred here bears little resemblance to your clip in this thread.

I would have to see the study on a straight back arm having any effect on shoulder pain. If anything, it places more stress on the rotator cuff and triceps than the simple arm circle. You can feel this on your own, if you try it.

Inversion: your head is tilted toward first base and your [edit here for clarity] upper arm isn't parallel to the ground, the arm is tilted along with your head.

With good hip rotation, the body will be at least square to the plate. Some pitchers a little more.

quote:

And you'll throw a couple of miles per hour faster.

Not necessarily. Last time I checked, Roger Clemens threw pretty hard...

- Pitcher Analysis - Roger Clemens

And you might just end up on your way to the HOF and with 14 gold gloves like Greg Maddux...

- Pitcher Analysis - Greg Maddux

Do you really think posting links to your reports gives your posts some credibility? Isn't kind of like saying it twice? We heard you the first time.

And your clip.......well, it speaks much louder than your reports. And, until you post a different one, this is our "Marshall" example.

You might want to quit trying to be a pitcher and clean up your yard.

Coach Chris

Shepster is totally overwhelmed at the amount of excellent work you put into the 47 pages of Roger C. analysis!!!! Didn't get to Maddux yet but will...

Great deal of Work Sir.

You "truly" love this game, don't cha???

How many total analysis books have you composed?

Must have taken you a while. How many hours?


Shep Cares

quote:

Originally posted by Coach Chris:

quote:

And you'll throw a couple of miles per hour faster.

Not necessarily. Last time I checked, Roger Clemens threw pretty hard...

- Pitcher Analysis - Roger Clemens

And you might just end up on your way to the HOF and with 14 gold gloves like Greg Maddux...

- Pitcher Analysis - Greg Maddux

Looks to me like Clemens hip rotation takes him past square. At least from the photo in your report.

And your Maddux report doesn't show how he ends up after landing.

Pulling the glove back behind the body does entail a little longer reaction time to the combacker. But it does accomplish two important things. Clearing the glove side shoulder dramatically reduces stress on the throwing arm during deceleration. And by allowing the arm more time until the onset of deceleration, the arm velocity is greater through the period of release. A tradeoff, but a worthwhile one.

I appreciate the lack of ridicule. It shows self-confidence and class.


"The slide step is not necessary for a quick move to the plate. And the slide step does require pitchers to have two sets of mechanics. The timing is far different for the slide step than without...But you appeared to be doing the slide step out of a windup. Never seen that before."

The advantage of using the Wind-Up Set position that I use in the clip is that you can use it with runners on base or not.


"I have yet to see a youth pitcher in the slide step who didn't give up velocity and control with the slide step. Of course the slide step can be used successfully. Not arguing that. But it takes a great deal of work over a long period of time, over and above the normal progression of pitching."

Agreed. But I would argue that this is due to lack of practice rather than an inherent problem with the slide step.


"And the presence or absence of a slide step has absoutely nothing to do with arm slot."

Not necessarily. If you go from the standard Set position (and the Wind-Up position as well), the temptation exists to "reach back" and/or reverse-rotate the shoulders. If you do this then you will tend to flatten out the take-back side of the arm path which will then flatten out the arm path through the release point. The way to get a more vertical arm slot is to break and take back your hands in a more vertical manner.


"There better be some horizontal movement in the mechanics. The lack of hip rotation in your demo certainly does rob power."

I agree that there has to be a horizontal rotation of the hips and shoulders. My relative lack of it, and more importantly my lack of separation between my hips and shoulders (due to some back problems), will limit my velocity. Not so coincidentally, it also limits the length of my drives in golf.


"I would have to see the study on a straight back arm having any effect on shoulder pain."

The name of the study is "Effect of Pitch Type, Pitch Count, and Pitching Mechanics on Risk of Elbow and Shoulder Pain in Youth Baseball Pitchers." See the last full paragraph on page 465 where they state "Two other flaws, a long arm swing and arm ahead of the body at the time of ball release, correlated with a decreased risk of shoulder pain." The use of the term "flaw" is deceptive. It just means that what they found didn't correlate with what they were looking for, not that it has any negative impact on performance (as Freddy Garcia demonstrates). You can find it on your own via Google or at...

- Effect of Pitch Type...


"If anything, it places more stress on the rotator cuff and triceps than the simple arm circle. You can feel this on your own, if you try it."

This only causes problems if you move your hand behind your back (what Dr. Marshall calls the Acromial Plane) rather than straight back toward 2B. As an example of what not to do, see frame 2.1 of my breakdown of the motion of Don Drysdale (who retired due to shoulder problems)...

- Pitcher Analysis - Don Drysdale


"Inversion: your head is tilted toward first base and your forearm isn't at 90 degrees to the ground, it is tilted along with your head."

This is to a large degree by design. Balls that are released with a vertical forearm, and as high as possible, are generally harder to hit. The way to achieve this is to sharply tilt the shoulders.

If you believe that most major league pitchers release the ball with their elbow bent 90 degrees, then you are falling victim to a common misconception. The reality is that pitchers' forearms fly out as their shoulders turn such that their forearms in line with their upper arms. For an axample of this, see frame 26.1 of by breakdown of Steve Carlton's motion...

- Pitcher Analysis - Steve Carlton


"With good hip rotation, the body will be at least square to the plate. Some pitchers a little more."

Agreed. However, for this to be possible you must take a shorter stride than many recommend (which is something that I do in the clip).

"Looks to me like Clemens hip rotation takes him past square. At least from the photo in your report."

It does, but not too much. There are other hard throwers who still finished up square to the plate.


"And your Maddux report doesn't show how he ends up after landing."

I'm trying to find more complete pictures. In the meantime, check out bbscout's (great) clip of Greg Maddux...

- Greg Maddux Clip


"Pulling the glove back behind the body does entail a little longer reaction time to the combacker. But it does accomplish two important things. Clearing the glove side shoulder dramatically reduces stress on the throwing arm during deceleration. And by allowing the arm more time until the onset of deceleration, the arm velocity is greater through the period of release. A tradeoff, but a worthwhile one."

I do agree that the longer deceleration path of the arm, the better.

However, the success of many successful major leaguers makes it clear that you don't have to finish with your glove-side arm behind your body to prevent injuries to the rear part of the rotator cuff. Given that, I recommend that pitchers finish in a strong fielding position, as long as doing so doesn't cause them to abbreviate the deceleration path of the arm.

This "windup set" will be slow to the plate, even combined with the slide step. It has to be, as the body must rotate. In the stretch, the shoulders and hips are already properly aligned.

If using windup & stretch is a problem (e.g., too much variation), then a pitcher can throw only from the stretch (as some do).

The different slide step mechanics do violate the KISS principle. And from that standpoint there is an inherent problem.

Flail and arm slots are not linked. Pitchers can flail and use any arm slot.

Regarding your study, correlation does not mean causality. And again, all you have to do is feel it yourself. Even with no flail at all, a person can feel greater stress in the rotator cuff and triceps when taking the arm back fully extended as opposed to arm circles. I certainly can feel it. Have you tried it?

What you are describing in your response to the inversion is the "overhead" slot (arm fully extended up to the sky). Not the "overhand" (upper arm parallel to the ground, foream 90 degrees to the ground).

The overhead slot is very stressful on the shoulder. I can't think of a young pitcher I coached who used the overhead slot that didn't have shoulder pain. I always advised them to go to overhand. The ones that went from overhead to overhand saw the pain go away.

And yes, there will be a greater down angle on the pitch. But there will be less horizontal movement on the ball. The overhead pitchers I have seen tend to throw straight & flat. This is easier to hit, even with the added down angle, compared to the pitches from other arm slots that may have slightly less angle but significantly more movement in the horizontal plane.

And with regard to where the forearm is at release, many pitchers use the three quarter slot. Not even overhand, much less overhead.

"Shepster is totally overwhelmed at the amount of excellent work you put into the 47 pages of Roger C. analysis!!!!"

Don't take the multiple views of the same point as redundant. Instead, take it as a powerful statement of how consistent Clemens is.

In fact, this isn't a scientifically-validated statement, but I believe that the motions of better pitches are easier to sequence because they are more consistent.


"Great Work Sir."

Thanks.


"You "truly" love this game, don't cha???"

Yes. But I also love it warts and all and believe it could be better.


"How many total analysis books have you composed?"

I am up to 30 or so and have about 10 more in progress. I just posted a new one of Cliff Politte.


"Must have taken you a while. How many hours?"

I would rather not think about it.

Having said that, out of curiosity I just bought a copy of Tom House's book "The Picture Perfect Pitcher." I would submit that if you bound the analyses that I have done into a book, you would have something that is much more valuable.

I am thinking about approaching a publisher with the idea of turning them into a book.

Would you buy a copy?

quote:

Originally posted by Coach Chris:
I do agree that the longer deceleration path of the arm, the better.

However, the success of many successful major leaguers makes it clear that you don't have to finish with your glove-side arm behind your body to prevent injuries to the rear part of the rotator cuff. Given that, I recommend that pitchers finish in a strong fielding position, as long as doing so doesn't cause them to abbreviate the deceleration path of the arm.

I guess it comes down to whether you are more interested in being the best pitcher possible, or the best fielder.

Leaving the glove in front does put greater stress on the shoulder and it does reduce the rotational velocity. Those two items are very fundamental. You're willing to have your pitchers give those things up, I am not. We will just disagree on that one.

Coach Chris,

First, I would like to say that you have obviously spent a lot of time researching and putting together all of those pictures. Thanks for sharing them with us.

However, if no successful pitcher has ever thrown in the manner that Mike Marshall describes, then I think it is unreasonable to think that anyone ever will. Why waste so much time trying to develop these new mechanics when they are based completely on theory. From someone who studies mathematics and physics on a daily basis, I know that theories are easy to create but very difficult to prove. In fact, most theories turn out to be completely wrong. How do you know that this theory will be different? There is no proof that it will work. If no one has ever been able to throw in exactly the manner that Marshall suggests, how do you know that the arm won't be injured once someone is finally able to master this technique.

There is proof that the current mechanics used by the best in the game of baseball works. This proof comes from their ability to throw with great velocity and get the best hitters in the game out. Data helps to prove the current pitching process.

I don't think you can make the arguement about your mechanics reducing injury until you know for sure that this motion will reduce injuries. And you won't know this until someone can actually master this throwing process. The bottom line is, you will never eliminate the threat of injury from pitching/throwing. It is one of, if not the. most explosive acts (in terms of energy) the human body is capable of. You can change pitching mechanics all you want, but you can't eliminate the possibility of injuries.

With that said, I agree that something has to be done to help decrease the number of injuries that are currently present in baseball, and I think Mike Marshall is on the right track in regards to his training techniques. Pitchers are undertrained in today's game, and some form of the training that Marshall suggests is bound to help this situation. It is my understanding that his students train very hard, and in my opinion this is the first step to increase performance and decrease injuries.

Just my opinion.

Take care.

I can appreciate some of what Rocket is saying. But I do wonder what are "the current mechanics used by the best"? There is a great variety of mechanics used by different pitchers.

If what Coach Chris is expounding upon is Marshall's current teaching, I can't go along with it.

When analyzed from the standpoint of physics & biomechanics (I'm with Rocket here), they don't add up.

I assume what we are discussing here is what mechanics should be taught to young pitchers. There are many successful and varied styles among pro pitchers. But what do we teach young pitchers? IMHO, keep it simple. Each added motion is something to go out of tune. Basic, fundamental mechanics. Mechanics that make sense when analyzed from the standpoint of physics and biomechanics.

Yes Chris without a doubt.

Shep would buy a copy.

Let me know when it happens and how I can buy it.

Sincerely,
RS

"This 'windup set' will be slow to the plate, even combined with the slide step. It has to be, as the body must rotate. In the stretch, the shoulders and hips are already properly aligned."

I will grant you that it will likely be slower to the plate than a slide step from the Set position. However, since it eliminates the knee lift I would argue that it's probably no slower than going from the standard Set position with a knee lift.

What's more, going from the Wind-Up Set position gives you several advantages over both the slide step and going from the standard Set position.

1. You don't have your back to the runner.

2. You can move to 1B faster. Just step and throw.

3. It changes the read. No more going or getting back depending on what knee cracks.

All of this will tend to hold runners closer to the bag.


"If using windup & stretch is a problem (e.g., too much variation), then a pitcher can throw only from the stretch (as some do)."

Agreed. I do this right now with my guys who use the traditional pitching motion.


"The different slide step mechanics do violate the KISS principle. And from that standpoint there is an inherent problem."

Agreed. This is especially a problem with younger pitchers.


"Flail and arm slots are not linked. Pitchers can flail and use any arm slot."

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by the term "flail". Please elaborate.


"Regarding your study, correlation does not mean causality. And again, all you have to do is feel it yourself. Even with no flail at all, a person can feel greater stress in the rotator cuff and triceps when taking the arm back fully extended as opposed to arm circles. I certainly can feel it. Have you tried it?"

Yes, and it doesn't cause me any discomfort if I bring my arm out in line with my shoulders (and I do it routinely now). Did you ever have any shoulder problems in the past? That could be part of the problem. Otherwise, you could be confusing discomfort due to soreness (due to using new muscles) that will go away over time with something that consistently causes pain.


"The overhead slot is very stressful on the shoulder. I can't think of a young pitcher I coached who used the overhead slot that didn't have shoulder pain. I always advised them to go to overhand. The ones that went from overhead to overhand saw the pain go away."

This is a very widely-held misconception.

What about Sandy Koufax? He pitched from a very high arm slot and never had shoulder problems.

This is safe as long as you tilt the shoulders so that the pitching arm side elbow doesn't go significantly above the plane of the shoulders (aka abduction < 100 degrees).


"But there will be less horizontal movement on the ball."

Precisely. Research into the human perceptual system indicates that people have the hardest timing judging the motion of an object that is moving at them in a purely vertical manner. This explains why the hardest ball for an outfielder to catch is one hit directly at them, why the hardest curveball to hit is a 12-6, and the illusion of the rising fastball. For more information Google "illusion rising fastball" or go to...

- Rising Fastball Presentation


"And with regard to where the forearm is at release, many pitchers use the three quarter slot. Not even overhand, much less overhead."

But that doesn't mean it's the best slot to use. Again, look at Sandy Koufax.

"I guess it comes down to whether you are more interested in being the best pitcher possible, or the best fielder."

Of course it's critical to be the best pitcher. However, many guys are worse fielders than they need to be.


"Leaving the glove in front does put greater stress on the shoulder..."

While I'm thrilled that you care about injury prevention, I think (but don't know) you're wrong about this.

I'd love to see a study that backs up this idea.


"Leaving the glove in front...does reduce the rotational velocity."

Actually, the laws of physics say just the opposite.

The relevant concept is called conservation of angular momentum and explains why ice skaters spin faster when they pull their arms in to their bodies than when they have the extended out at theit sides. Pulling the glove in to the pec actually allows the shoulders to spin faster than does flying open with it.

Coach Chris

My LINUX FIREWALL SYSTEM put in by my first cousin John "Maddog" Hall, detected possible virus in the last link you posted so I didn't download to harddrive.

Sorry, just not a risk worth taking even though red flag may be totally harmless and I apologize in advance if it is just pre-cautionary but hasn't happened with any other of your links so makes me curious???!!!

Sup???!!!
Shep
Link of Red Flag>Rising Fastball Presentaion

"However, if no successful pitcher has ever thrown in the manner that Mike Marshall describes, then I think it is unreasonable to think that anyone ever will. Why waste so much time trying to develop these new mechanics when they are based completely on theory. From someone who studies mathematics and physics on a daily basis, I know that theories are easy to create but very difficult to prove."

Why is this worth trying? Two words: Local Maximum. I am a student of innovation, and one thing I have learned is that in many cases systems settle into states that are better than the (near) alternative but not as good as they could be. It's hard as he!! for products and markets to break out of local maximae (due to things like sunk costs), but that's not the case when it comes to pitching.

Don't think that's enough? Then I have two more words for you: Fosbury Flop. Dick Fosbury wqas widely ridiculed for how he got over the high jump bar. Until he starting kicking everyone's butts.


"In fact, most theories turn out to be completely wrong. How do you know that this theory will be different? There is no proof that it will work. If no one has ever been able to throw in exactly the manner that Marshall suggests, how do you know that the arm won't be injured once someone is finally able to master this technique."

While Dr. Marshall's motion in its entirety is new, I find many examples of people that do parts of what he advocates and that were successful as a result. One person is Dr. Marshall himself. Even back in 1974, his mechanics were very different (and influenced by the work he was doing.) Javelin throwers also do things that resemble what Dr. Marshall is talking about. Third, there are many major leaguers out there who do things that correspond to what Dr. Marshall is advocating (e.g. Freddy Garcia gets him pitching arm up sooner than do most people). Finally, there is a guy in the Phillies system named Josh Outman who uses a motion that was designed independently of Dr. Marshall's efforts but that shares many common characteristics. I always find examples like that of convergent evolution to be interesting.


"There is proof that the current mechanics used by the best in the game of baseball works. This proof comes from their ability to throw with great velocity and get the best hitters in the game out. Data helps to prove the current pitching process."

But there is also proof that it destroys most of their arms.

In my study, what I'm interested in are the outliers; guys who are either far more, or far less, injury prone. Some say that these differences are due to luck or conditioning. I think it might be due to more than that.


"I don't think you can make the arguement about your mechanics reducing injury until you know for sure that this motion will reduce injuries. And you won't know this until someone can actually master this throwing process."

Agreed. The lack of independent validation is a major problem with Dr. Marshall's current approach.


"The bottom line is, you will never eliminate the threat of injury from pitching/throwing. It is one of, if not the, most explosive acts (in terms of energy) the human body is capable of. You can change pitching mechanics all you want, but you can't eliminate the possibility of injuries."

Well, Tom Seaver and Nolan Ryan suggests you might be able to eliminate the risk. Even if you can't, then reducing the risk is sufficiently worth it for many major league teams to be interested in the idea. They are getting tired of paying guys millions of dollars to sit on the bench.


"It is my understanding that his students train very hard, and in my opinion this is the first step to increase performance and decrease injuries."

I agree. I don't think it's a coincidence that Nolan Ryan and Tom Seaver were freaks about conditioning. In fact, before he even talks about pitching, Tom Seaver first talks about conditioning in his book. However, I don't think conditioning explains everything.

Coach Chris

Slow down a minute and respond to my last post.

Regain my confidence please..

RS

I assume you're talking about this file...

http://www.sie.arizona.edu/sysengr/slides/risingFastball.ppt

For one thing, it's not my file. It's someone else's. I just posted the link to it to be helpful.

Having said that, I just scanned it with McAfee Virus Scan and didn't find anything.

Yea, I've heard that one before!

It's not mine so I'm not responsible.

Good Night Chris>

Will Still buy your book though but you should not post any link that might crash somebody's harddrive. Ck it out thoroughly first.

No hard feelings, okay?

Shep Still Cares

"Seriously, CoachChris, pay the fee to take your 6 & 10 year-olds to a known pitching instructor. The arm you save, may be your son's."

It's funny that you say this, since this is part of how I got started on this.

Last year the parents of 4 of my guys each paid $40 bucks per session for their sons to work with a local pitching coach. I was too cheap, so I taught my son myself.

Over the course of the season the 4 guys who went to the coach got worse (one went from giving me 2 or 3 good innings to not being able to throw strikes) while my son got better (gave up just 1 earned run and 2 hits in 3.5 innings during the the playoffs).

That's when I realized that a lot of the "experts" don't know what the he)( they're talking about and I ought to educate myself.

quote:

but you should not post any link that might crash somebody's harddrive. Ck it out thoroughly first.

There's no reason why this file would crash your hard drive. I've opened it multiple times on multiple computers and have never had a problem.

I have also downloaded it at work through our firewalls (which are incredibly tight given that we deal with VERY sensitive data) and they never gave off a peep.

What your firewall probably didn't like were some embedded equations and Visio diagrams.

"I am confused by your video. Has Mike Marshall viewed it? If so, does he like having his name attached to that video?"

Yes, he has seen it. He thinks I do some things right but need to work on some other things.


"Does he really want the ball taken out of the glove that early."

Yes. In fact, this is one of the things that Dr. Marshall thinks I do well. The reason is that breaking the hands this early reduces the strain on the shoulder (among other things). Dr. Marshall refers to this as the Crow-Hop Rhythm (as in the crow hops that outfielders and some infielders use when throwing).


"What is the purpose of the Wind-up/set position."

First, to reduce the temptation to take the ball laterally behind the body (which ultimately lowers the arm slot). Second, to make it easier to hold runners onto 1B.

Blues are going to categorize your mechanics as "windup". As you read the rule book, you will see that they must. So as soon as the free foot swings in back of the rubber, the runner is gone. And the pitcher is committed to deliver to the plate. And runners will be loving it. Why do you think that pitchers use the stretch instead of the windup with runners on?

In reality, they will start going as soon as the foot moves back at all. And if the free foot is going back, and then it starts toward first the pitcher may well get a balk call.

Flail is taking the arm back farther than a line drawn from HP to 2B. Over rotation after break.

I am talking about feeling stress - tension if you will - in the shoulder and triceps. Not pain or discomfort. And if you don't feel it, then you would be the first person I've had try the demonstration that did not. And that is possible, but not likely. And no, I have not had shoulder problems.

I'm sorry, but you cannot say that my observation on the overhead slot is a misconception. I have seen way, way too much empirical evidence. And a knowledge of biomechanics provides the theoretical explanation.

First. Sandy's shoulders were tilted significantly. This lessened the angle between the torso & arm. Second, just because a pitcher who did use the overhead slot didn't go down with a shoulder injury does not mean it was less stressful.

It sounds as though you want to teach an overhand slot, but with inversion in an attempt to simulate overhead.

You might want to read Adair's book on the physics of baseball to fully understand the outfielder's judging of the ball. This concept is being somewhat misapplied here.

I can tell you that from years of watching baseball, pitchers who throw straight tend to get whiplash when they go up against good hitters. And I don't think you are considering reaction times and late movement (e.g., as with a good two seam). Late movement is tough because while the eyes might recognize the movement, the body has already committed to a swing based on an earlier perception of the ball's path. And it cannot react quickly enough with adequate control to adjust.

And if you want to use a pro to justify an arm slot, you may have noticed that Clemens uses the three quarter.

We as coaches must remember that often the pros succeed in spite of things in their mechanics. Not because of them. They have so much incredible talent to have made it that far, that they can overcome these things.

Do you teach the Marichal leg kick? Why not? He was a great pitcher. Do you teach the Tekulve (sp?) submarine slot? Why not? He was very successful.

Again, are we talking about what to teach youth pitchers? Analyze the mechanics in the light of physics and biomechanics. And keep it fundamental.

And pulling the elbow back as the throwing arm goes forward increases rotational speed. It is providing a force acting to rotate the torso. Leaving the glove tucked does not provide this force. And I never said the glove arm had to be fully extended in front of the body nor that it would fly out. I don't teach that. The upper arm should be parallel to the ground, and the forearm hanging down at 90 degrees. Then the elbow is pulled back. So now, the laws of physics do not say the opposite of what I am describing. You are ignoring the rotational force applied by pulling the elbow back.

I think we have just about beat this one to death.

I do hope that if you are coaching youth pitchers, you will reconsider what you are describing here.

"If that video represents your idea of proper pitching mechanics you are misrepresenting yourself. Ie taking money under false pretenses."

For the moment at least, when I evaluate pitchers I do it relative to major leaguers. I tell people where and how their motions resemble (and differ from) those of...

1. Pitchers like Nolan Ryan who had long, injury-free careers.

2. Pitchers like Bobby Madritsch who had short, injury-plagued careers.

So far, people have been very satisfied with what they have received from me.


"No set position..."

Actually, I am in what the rules define as a legal starting point for the Wind-Up Position.


"...and I believe what you show is a balk."

What I do in the clip, while untraditional, is perfectly legal according to the rules of baseball.

If I wanted to throw to 1B, I would just step toward 1B with my glove side foot and then throw the ball.


"No leg lift"

By design. The truth is that the leg lift if not nearly as important as some people think when it comes to generating power.


"...no balance point"

By design. One of the problems with coming to the traditional balance point is the problem of rushing; too many guys break their hands late and end up missing up and in because their arm is late in getting around. The advantage of Dr. Marshall's approach is that it completely eliminates the problem of rushing since much of his approach is built around the idea of getting the pitching arm up early.


"You argue with a scout and several people on here that know what they are talking about from years of experience. STOP and listen to expert advise."

All I can say to this "Moneyball." In that (great) book, Billy Beane has a lot to say about the limitations of how scouts currently think about evaluating talent.


"I had a chat last week wuth a guy from South Africa whos's son is a 6'5" RHP. He has been here for years and would listen to no one. He knew it all based on Cricket. Trying to compare a cricket bowlers arm action to a BB pitcher. He even complain to a local organization about his current coach making his son do long toss etc."

Actually, I'm very interested in the sport of Cricket (just learned in in CanCun while on vacation) because Cricket bowlers suffer far lower rates of elbow and shoulder injuries.


"He knew what was best. It was so rediculous you couldn't talk to him."

Have you ever considered that maybe he was right and that you were wrong?


"You are not quite that bad but right up there.
Do youself a favour and learn before you teach. You owe it to your students."

Talk to anyone who knows me and they will tell you that I will always listen to people who say things that are backed up by sound science.

However, I reserve the right to ignore people who say things only on the basis of 1) what they were told 2) what "everybody" does 3) what they think is true. I also have a low opinion of people who only care about performance (regardless of the injury implications).

"Blues are going to categorize your mechanics as 'windup'. As you read the rule book, you will see that they must."

Agreed.


"So as soon as the free foot swings in back of the rubber, the runner is gone."

As I demonstrate in the clip, there is no swing of the free (or glove-side) foot. Instead, as the rules allow, you start with the glove-side foot on the rubber. From that point on, all of your motion is directed forward toward Home Plate.


"In reality, they will start going as soon as the foot moves back at all. And if the free foot is going back, and then it starts toward first the pitcher may well get a balk call."

Ah, but as I show the free/glove-side foot doesn't move back. It just moves forward.


"Flail is taking the arm back farther than a line drawn from HP to 2B. Over rotation after break."

If I understand what you are saying, then I think it's a bad idea because it will stress the muscles at the front of the rotator cuff. Also, it's not something that guys like Ryan and Clemens do.


"I am talking about feeling stress - tension if you will - in the shoulder and triceps. Not pain or discomfort. And if you don't feel it, then you would be the first person I've had try the demonstration that did not. And that is possible, but not likely. And no, I have not had shoulder problems."

But this stress isn't necessarily a sign that you are doing something wrong. Just that you are doing something different. It will quickly go away.


"First. Sandy's shoulders were tilted significantly."

Agreed.


"Second, just because a pitcher who did use the overhead slot didn't go down with a shoulder injury does not mean it was less stressful."

I don't see how this follows. If it was stressful (in a negative, injury-producing sense) then it would have caused him shoulder problems. Since he didn't have shoulder problems, then you have to conclude that it's not stressful (at least how he did it).

I am very familiar with the concept of impingement syndrome, which may be what you are alluding to. However, the fact is that, if you tilt the shoulders significantly (as Koufax did) and keep the pitching arm side elbow at or below the level of the shoulders (e.g. abduction < 100 degrees), then you do not run the risk of impingement. Impingement is only a risk when the pitching arm side elbow is moved significantly above and behind the level of the shoulders.


"You might want to read Adair's book on the physics of baseball to fully understand the outfielder's judging of the ball. This concept is being somewhat misapplied here."

I have and he doesn't really deal with this topic. This is more a problem of the perceptual system rather than the physics of the ball. It also doesn't have anything to do with aerodynamics.


"I can tell you that from years of watching baseball, pitchers who throw straight tend to get whiplash when they go up against good hitters."

Agreed. That's why you have to change speeds and drop the bottom out of the ball every once in a while.


"And I don't think you are considering reaction times and late movement (e.g., as with a good two seam)."

The research indicates that a 2-seam fastball doesn't really sink (otherwise it would be a slider) and a 4-seam fastball doesn't really rise. Instead, the seams of a 4-seam fastball (completely counterintuitively) generate less drag and more lift, so a 4-seamer appears to rise. What is actually happening is that a 4-seamer drops less than does a 2-seamer, which is what makes a 4-seamer seem to rise and a 2-seamer seem to sink.

It's all relative.


"Late movement is tough because while the eyes might recognize the movement, the body has already committed to a swing based on an earlier perception of the ball's path. And it cannot react quickly enough with adequate control to adjust."

Agreed. That's why curveballs are so hard to hit. However, the research indicates that you are better able to disguise this late break (which only seems like a late break but actually isn't) if the ball is moving in a more vertical plane.


"And if you want to use a pro to justify an arm slot, you may have noticed that Clemens uses the three quarter."

Agreed. He's even a little flatter than that lately.


"Do you teach the Marichal leg kick? Why not? He was a great pitcher."

No, because it violates the KISS principle. Just because he (and Dontrelle) could do it, doesn't mean that most people could.


"Do you teach the Tekulve (sp?) submarine slot? Why not? He was very successful."

No, because it is generally harder for people to master. If you don't throw pure submarine, you run the risk of throwing sidearm which I think is generally the worst option.


"And pulling the elbow back as the throwing arm goes forward increases rotational speed. It is providing a force acting to rotate the torso."

Agreed. However, you'll kill all of this momentum if you then let the glove fly out.


"Leaving the glove tucked does not provide this force."

Agreed. But keeping the glove tucked in keeps this force from being dissipated.


"The upper arm should be parallel to the ground,..."

Strongly agree. This allows you to apply the force perpendicular to the axis of rotation of the shoulders (which is most efficient).


"...and the forearm hanging down at 90 degrees."

Strongly disagree. If you do this, then you will not apply force perpendicular to the axis of rotation of the shoulders. Instead, this energy will be dissipated in bending the body forward.


"Then the elbow is pulled back. So now, the laws of physics do not say the opposite of what I am describing. You are ignoring the rotational force applied by pulling the elbow back."

But if the elbow is hanging down vertically from the elbow, then you have a lot of the mass (e.g. the glove and the forearm) away from the axis of rotation, which will reduce the rate at which your shoulders can rotate. If you instead pull the glove into the pec (while leaving the glove side elbow out at the same level as the shoulders) then more of the mass is moved closer to the axis of rotation and the rate of rotation will be greater.

This isn't just me spouting off. This is what Nolan Ryan actually did.

It's the video...I think it can make pitchers go blind.

Chris, your essentially finished before you even start to throw the ball. You are cupping your wrist badly which basically kills all your chances to throw before you even throw. If that is what Marhall advocates than EVERYSINGLE derogatory staement that has been made is true. Because in truth that whole deal sucks and not just a little either, its bad, real bad!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Coach Chris:

"Does he really want the ball taken out of the glove that early."

Yes. In fact, this is one of the things that Dr. Marshall thinks I do well. The reason is that breaking the hands this early reduces the strain on the shoulder (among other things). Dr. Marshall refers to this as the Crow-Hop Rhythm (as in the crow hops that outfielders and some infielders use when throwing).

Also costs you 3 to 5.

Still waiting for that clip....you know....a Marshallite throwing 85+.

quote:

Yes, he has seen it. He thinks I do some things right but need to work on some other things.

Sounds like a salesman to me. Chris I know you believe what you say but yiu are totally wrong.

I just had a frustrating encounter with a Dick Mills groupie with the same results. A man who has no clue teaching his kids and evaluating a pitching concept from a position of ignorance.
Your logic is flawed and your conclusions are based on ignorance and flawed information rendering it garbage.
Do these pitchers know you are using their photos etc for a possible book ?

Pardon my error on the foot swinging back.

However, read OBR 8.01. You agree that this is the windup, not the stretch. And the rules make that classification clear. Since your "normal" pitching motion is to go to the plate from a position that begins with your foot behind the rubber, I believe you will find that you will be balked for any move to first (explainatory note in 8.05 (a)).

I agree that too much flail is not desirable, for several reasons.

Stress leads to fatigue. Stress is a force placed on the rotator cuff. Stress felt under light load conditions, as I described, will be much higher under the load of pitching.

You don't draw conclusions based on one or two data points. Just because something places additional stress on the body does not mean that every single person who does that is going to have an injury. You know that. You have to be smart enough to know that. Please don't start that kind of ridiculous stuff. That does not mean that it is best practice to do something that places unnecessary stress on the body.

Please read what I wrote carefully. I said that Koufax was not using the overhead slot because of the tilt.

You misapplied the concept of outfielders judging the ball. Had you read & applied Adair more carefully, you would understand what I am talking about.

You quoted the conclusions (intentionally or unintentionally) from one of his topics, and now you say he doesn't deal with the topic?

I never said a two seamer was a sinker. It has movement in the horizontal plane. Properly thrown, it has late movement (when from a RHP, moving in on a RHB). And no pitch rises, unless it is thrown underhand. Again, Adair has a good discussion of this. It is all relative, and that is what is important to a concept call deception.

Your skater analogy from your earlier post is faulty. How does the skater initially build rotational velocity (e.g., when they first move to try & develop a spin)? Not by pulling the arms in. What are the conditions when the pull the arms in? They are on a very low friction surface and they have already built their initial momentum.

You keep talking about the glove flying out. Pulling the glove elbow back does not mean the arm flies out. So I have no idea why you keep repeating your statement.

>>>
"Leaving the glove tucked does not provide this force."

Agreed. But keeping the glove tucked in keeps this force from being dissipated.
<<<

Excuse me, but if you leave the glove tucked THERE IS NO FORCE. SO THERE IS NO FORCE TO KEEP FROM BEING DISSIPATED!

And you don't understand the concept of the glove elbow being pulled back. When the elbow is pulled back, the force IS acting in a vector that is perpindicular to the axis of the torso. That is pretty elementary and obvious.

The "elbow hanging down" is not what I said. I said the forearm is hanging down perpindicular to the ground (e.g., 90 degrees from the upper arm, and the upper arm is parallel to the ground). And this is the starting point (the position of the glove arm when the throwing arm is in the high L), not the end point. If you begin your motion with the glove arm against the body, it cannot exert any appreciable force on the torso at all.

Mass farther from the axis of rotation means a greater moment arm (force x distance) when a force is applied as that mass is moved. Which means a greater moment is exerted on the torso, which means the added rotational velocity will be greater. This is a very basic concept. You cannot break the laws of physics.

I really think you need to obtain a more thorough grasp of mechanical engineering (applied physics) before you continue your analyses. Then the conversation can be constructive. Until then, I don't think continuing this tread is useful.

And yes, Nolan does more of a glove arm tuck, but even he pulls the elbow back some. You can see the elbow jutting somewhat above his back at his finish.

Have a good day.

quote:

Chris, your essentially finished before you even start to throw the ball. You are cupping your wrist badly which basically kills all your chances to throw before you even throw.

Not sure what you mean by "cupping."

Some of this could be due to the fact that I was A) working hard to supinate my wrist and B) didn't have a ball in my hand so as to demonstrate the supination. My wrist was likely tighter than it should be.

If you are referring to the fact that I turn my forearm over early and have my palm facing upward when my pitching forearm is horizontal, then that is by design.

quote:

Also costs you 3 to 5.

Why?

quote:

Originally posted by Coach Chris:
Some of this could be due to the fact that I was A) working hard to supinate my wrist and B) didn't have a ball in my hand so as to demonstrate the supination. My wrist was likely tighter than it should be.

You also advocate supination???

Because there is too much time between the load and the unload.

Your entire motion is one big "pause".

Somehow you think you can throw hard by throwing soft. It ain't gonna happen, son.

Your so afraid of getting hurt so you won't miss work that you're going to be out of work because you're afraid of getting hurt.

My best AFLAC duck impression.

I think Chris has been pulling our leg with this entire thing. He just can't be serious. The video is the thing that clinches it. But that is okay, sparked some good conversation.

quote:

Then I have two more words for you: Fosbury Flop. Dick Fosbury wqas widely ridiculed for how he got over the high jump bar. Until he starting kicking everyone's butts.

Please show examples of players with Marshall approved motions kicking everyone's butt. Until I see some results IMO Marshall is a flop and not a Fosbury flop.

What would Marshall think of the pitcher in my avatar?

How about Jake Peavy of SD Padres??? How are his mechanics in your opinion???

Is he going to have arm and shoulder problems too Chris???

Bet Kevin Towers and Team USA hopes not.

Shep

In CoachChris's defense, it is similar to the mechanics my son't hitting coach uses when throwing BP. Son's hitting coach was hitting instructor and minor league coach for MLB team for almost twenty years. (OK, OK, he doesn't look as stiff, nor does he hop)

Unfortunately for Chris, he throws that way so my son can hit better. He can time the arm swing, pick up the ball well, the ball is straight as an arrow, etc.

Maybe Chris can use that to train a bunch of BP pitchers, it seems to come in handy there.

quote:

Originally posted by hit&run:
Unfortunately for Chris, he throws that way so my son can hit better. He can time the arm swing, pick up the ball well, the ball is straight as an arrow, etc.

Lot better than hitting off a Tee.

quote:

You also advocate supination???

Yes, if done at the correct moment.

By definition, if you are to be able to powerfully and significantly pronate through the acceleration phase, then your forearm must be supinated going into the acceleration phase. If your forearm is neutral going into the acceleration phase, then you won't be able to pronate as hard or as much.

Supinating before the acceleration phase isn't problematic because the forces on the elbow and shoulder are relatively low (since the shoulders haven yet started turning).

quote:

How about Jake Peavy of SD Padres??? How are his mechanics in your opinion???

I'll put Peavy on my list of guys to analyze. In the meantime, here's a set of first impressions. Keep in mind that I know nothing of his injury history, so this might serve as an interesting test of my abilities.

1) I don't like how he finishes with his glove down to his side and sometimes behind his back. This leaves him in a weak fielding position.

2) Ala Don Drysdale, he reaches back and takes the ball well behind his back (aka his Acromial Plane). That puts him at risk of straining the front of his rotator cuff.

3) His timing of when he starts turning his shoulders seems good, so I don't see any problems with his Labrum.

4) He stiffens his glove-side leg, but only well after releasing the ball. Since he finishes relatively more upright than most (which IMHO is good) this doesn't abbreviate the deceleration path of his pitching arm (which is also good).

5) He does have a lot of pronation after releasing the ball, but in a few photos his forearm is extremely supinated up to the point of releasing the ball, which focuses the load on his UCL and will likely cause elbow problems in the relatively near future.

This prognosis is not good....

Will pass on analysis.

Thanks Chris

Shep

Whoops!! Wrong Smiley!

Sorry "C"

Shep

Chris I have to ask what qualifications do you have to call yourself a coach let alone a pitching instructor?
Do you have any certification ? Here our coaches need atleast a Level 2 to coach kids.

"However, read OBR 8.01. You agree that this is the windup, not the stretch. And the rules make that classification clear. Since your 'normal' pitching motion is to go to the plate from a position that begins with your foot behind the rubber, I believe you will find that you will be balked for any move to first (explainatory note in 8.05 (a))."

The relevant parts of 8.01 are "When a pitcher holds the ball with both hands in front of his body, with his entire pivot foot on, or in front of and touching but not off the end of the pitcher's plate, and his other foot free, he will be considered in the Windup Position. The pitcher may have one foot, not the pivot foot, off the rubber and any distance he may desire back of a line which is an extension to the back edge of the pitcher's plate, but not at either side of the pitcher's plate...From this position he may: (1) deliver the ball to the batter, or (2) step and throw to a base in an attempt to pick off a runner, or (3) disengage the rubber (if he does he must drop his hand to his sides). In disengaging the rubber the pitcher must step off with his pivot foot and not his free foot first."
The rules allow the pitcher to either go to the plate or step and throw to a base. Rule 8.05(a) says "The pitcher, while touching his plate, makes any motion naturally associated with his pitch and fails to make such delivery; If a left-handed or right-handed pitcher swings his free foot past the back edge of the pitcher's rubber, he is required to pitch to the batter except to throw to second base on a pick off play."
In this case, the motion normally associated with going to the plate would be to step directly toward Home Plate. When throwing to 1B, you would instead step directly toward 1B. That makes it a legal move.


"Stress leads to fatigue. Stress is a force placed on the rotator cuff. Stress felt under light load conditions, as I described, will be much higher under the load of pitching."

I generally agree but not in this case. The tightness and thus the stress go away over time as you develop the right muscles.


"You misapplied the concept of outfielders judging the ball. Had you read & applied Adair more carefully, you would understand what I am talking about."

I have re-read it and don't know what you're referring to. Please explain.


"You keep talking about the glove flying out. Pulling the glove elbow back does not mean the arm flies out. So I have no idea why you keep repeating your statement."

Then I must be misunderstanding what you are saying. As long as the glove stays close to the body, then I'm (relatively) happy.


"Excuse me, but if you leave the glove tucked THERE IS NO FORCE. SO THERE IS NO FORCE TO KEEP FROM BEING DISSIPATED!"

You don't leave the glove tucked. You point it at the target and then pull it into the pec.


"And you don't understand the concept of the glove elbow being pulled back. When the elbow is pulled back, the force IS acting in a vector that is perpindicular to the axis of the torso. That is pretty elementary and obvious."

This is true as long as the glove is pulled into the shoulder.


"If you begin your motion with the glove arm against the body, it cannot exert any appreciable force on the torso at all."

Agreed.


"Mass farther from the axis of rotation means a greater moment arm (force x distance) when a force is applied as that mass is moved. Which means a greater moment is exerted on the torso, which means the added rotational velocity will be greater. This is a very basic concept. You cannot break the laws of physics."

Agreed. But to keep inertia from coming into play, you have to bring the glove in toward the axis of rotation (e.g. in toward the glove side pec).


"And yes, Nolan does more of a glove arm tuck, but even he pulls the elbow back some. You can see the elbow jutting somewhat above his back at his finish."

Agreed. He may do it perfectly. He pulls the glove into his pec but accentuates the rotational force by pulling his glove side elbow (but not his glove) behind his body. I do think this motion would be more efficient if he kept his elbow high (e.g. at the level of the shoulder) rather than bringing it down to his glove side hip.

quote:

Because there is too much time between the load and the unload.

I actually agree with you (to a degree).

Assuming that you reverse-rotate your hips but not your shoulders, pitching from the standard Set position may put you in the best position to get to the plate quickly while still taking advantage of what can be gained from a countermovement.

This is because for a countermovement to be effective (e.g. to increase the force that can be applied), the unloading must immediately follow the loading process. The longer you wait between the loading and the unloading, the more energy that dissipates.

For example, that explains why, when hitting a golf ball, you must swing immediately after winding up. Wait too long before swinging and you lose the benefit of the countermovement or loading/unloading process.

quote:

What would Marshall think of the pitcher in my avatar?

Marshall would hate him (but he hates everybody).

I on the other hand think that his longevity and lack of injuries say something interesting.

The thought that Nolan Ryan could have been more efficient is mind boggling. It's like saying that Tom Seaver could have been smarter.

Chris

I do believe we are going to have to take the honor away from TomLongpost and give the honor to you sir.

How does CoachChrisLongpost sound to you??

Kinda has a nice ring like a jingle.

Better watch out cause in the unusual unusual thread> wood, JT and a few others may want to add Karma and make it KarmaCoachChrisLongpost.

Still wouldn't be nearly as long as some of your posts. Slow down son. We are not going anywhere just yet.

Shep

Yeah, so why do you break your hands so early.

Can you say you're slooooooooooooooow with your load/unload?

quote:

Originally posted by Coach Chris:

quote:

What would Marshall think of the pitcher in my avatar?

Marshall would hate him (but he hates everybody).

Except himself.

Still gets an 80 for courage.

Shep

We all have dreams.

Shep

Chris my son pitches and picks off better when he loads and hesitates before coming forward. I find his breaking ball has more bite .

I would like you to respond to my question about qualifications.

Shep's Thought for the day-

We all need to embrace CoachChris for his dedication.

Shep

quote:

The thought that Nolan Ryan could have been more efficient is mind boggling. It's like saying that Tom Seaver could have been smarter.

Dr. Marshall says this about Ryan. I won't. That is worthless (and incredibly arrogant) speculation.

What I will say is that I don't think Mark Prior has perfect mechanics and I don't think he needed to experience as many injuries as he has.

quote:

I would like you to respond to my question about qualifications.

Exactly which question are you referring to?

quote:

Yeah, so why do you break your hands so early. Can you say you're slooooooooooooooow with your load/unload?

I want to get my arm up early.

However, it does look like I stall at the top of my arm swing.

That is a timing flaw that is due to lack of practice at the time the video was taken.

Where bwill I find this book ? in fictional or Humour ?

quote:

Except himself.

Wrong.

He hates how he threw in 1974 (the year he won the Cy Young).

That in my opinion is taking things a little too far toward the perfectionist end of the pool.

:-)

Do you have any qualification to coach and instruct pitchers ?

quote:

Do these pitchers know you are using their photos etc for a possible book ?

No. If I do end up publishing something I will of course have to get their permissions and secure the rights to some images.

Right now all this is a personal project that has gotten a bit (or a maybe lot) out of hand.

How happy do you think they would be if they knew you were posting pictures on a public web site and disecting their mechanics. What would you say your qualifications were to do this.
Picture Nolan Ryan standing in front of you and screaming at you with a baseball in his hands.
It is true that there are guys who pitch in MLB that don't have ideal mechanics but who are you to opinionate in public ?

Its alright Chris I would hope nobody here would pursue criminal charges of copyright violations.

Want to suggest that Coach Chris go back right now and remove demonstration clip in backyard and continue posting and responding like nothing has happened and I'm going back now to remove all of my references toward backyard video and apologize because most of us here wouldn't look too much better ourselves and don't have the right to say a word! Follow me son??

Shep Cares

quote:

Do you have any qualification to coach and instruct pitchers ?

It depends what you regard as qualifications. Here's what I have. Judge for yourself.

- I have spent most of my career working as an analyst and troubleshooter of very large and complex computer systems. I have spent half of my career working side by side with programmers helping them to analyze and debug the systems that they have built. One product with my name on it is a middle-market CRM product called SalesLogix (I helped design and build the database synchronization system). I also helped build www.agedwards.com. Compared to debugging a multi-tier, web based appplication with 20,000 moving parts, debugging a pitcher is relatively easy. It's all about looking for patterns.

- I have spent the past 9 months immersing myself in the physiology and kinesiology of pitching. In that time I have read hundreds of technical journal articles. This draws on my experience working as a paralegal analyzing the medical histories of people who said they had asbestosis (most didn't).

- I have done extensive research into the physiology of other overhead throwing sports like cricket, water polo, javelin, and handball.

- I have read everything that Dr. Marshall has written about the physiology of pitching and have asked him numerous questions over the past 6 months. Whenever I have a question, I ask him. If he doesn't give me a good enough answer, then I go to the journals.

- I have spent the past 5 years serving as my son's (11U) pitching coaching and the pitching coach of the teams he has played on.

One way to think of me is as a Moneyball-inspired analyst of the physiology of the the pitching motion.

I would note that Steve Ellis of www.TheCompletePitcher.com has no problems with my credentials and qualifications. That's why he made me a moderator of www.letstalkpitching.com

quote:

Chris my son pitches and picks off better when he loads and hesitates before coming forward. I find his breaking ball has more bite.

You can hesitate, just not for too long.

Also, this idea of countermovements and loading/unloading is more of an issue when it comes to fastballs. Curveballs aren't thrown as at high of a velocity.

quote:

How happy do you think they would be if they knew you were posting pictures on a public web site and disecting their mechanics. What would you say your qualifications were to do this. It is true that there are guys who pitch in MLB that don't have ideal mechanics but who are you to opinionate in public?

I don't know. I plan on asking Cliff Politte in a couple of weeks.

I do think that Chris Carpenter might be interested in my theories about the cause of his shoulder problems.

I also know of a guy who broke down Bob Gibson's motion with Gibby in the room and lived to tell about it. If Gibby can take it then, as long as the intentions are good, I believe most ML's could take it as well. In fact, several major league teams are interested in getting just these kinds of analyses of potential draft picks. They don't want to waste their money.

That's also why I don't mock anyone. I just try to say what I like and what I don't like and why.

While you may believe that it is presumptuous for me to do this in public, I can point you to 20 people who think it's valuable (but possibly still presumptuous).

If you don't like my analyses then either don't read them or put together some of your own.

I think you are probably an honest sincere person. The reason I say that is that you have avoided my question about qualification like the plague.
Chris you should ask the permission before putting this on a public forum because you are doing this preliminary work to possibly publish a book.

quote:

I think you are probably an honest sincere person. The reason I say that is that you have avoided my question about qualification like the plague.

Does what I posted above answer your questions.

I'm not trying to hide anything.

No
Have you taken recognized coaching couses and been given a certification ?

quote:

Have you taken recognized coaching couses and been given a certification ?

Yes and yes.

I have taken multiple coaching courses put on by my local CYC (Catholic Youth Council).

When it comes to pitching in particular, I am entirely self-taught. While you may disagree, I think that's a good thing since I'm not convinced that those certifications are worth much if/since they aren't based on science (which is a big part of the problem).

Instead, I have read and re-read (and in many cases re-re-read) the books that have been put out by the major gurus. I have then compared everything they say with what the scientific research (such as it is) says.

As a result (and to a large degree thanks to Dr. Marshall), I will say that I probably understand the physiology of pitching better than do most people. Many (most?) pitching coaches don't even understand the orientation of the muscles and ligaments in the forearm and shoulder and can't name the muscles the make up the rotator cuff. I do and I can.

I am talking to Dr. Marshall about becoming certified to teach his ideas. There are probably only a few others in the country who understand his ideas as well as I do.

Good for you, Bobblehead!

There are no baseball credentials.

quote:

Have you taken recognized coaching couses and been given a certification ?

Let me say one more thing about this and my approach to coaching and evaluating players.

As I have said elsewhere, when evaluating players -- while I do rely on my understanding of the physiology of pitching -- I try to do so relative to two groups of people...

1) Major leaguers who had long, injury-free careers.

2) Major leaguers who had short, injury-plagued careers.

I look at a player's motion and then see what major league player's motion(s) it resembles. If they look like Greg Maddux or Nolan Ryan, than that's a good thing. If they look like Mark Prior or Don Drysdale, then that's a problem.

This is a deliberately very conservative approach that has led Dr. Marshall to chastise me for taking it. However, I think it's the right approach to take if the player or the parent isn't interested in trying out Dr. Marshall's ideas.

This approach is also very different than the approach that I believe is taken by ASMI. Based on what Tom House has says, I believe they compare everyone to the person they believe has the ideal mechanics: Mark Prior. I view this as at least curious and potentially dangerous given Prior's history of injuries.

I believe that it is better (and safer) to compare pitchers to people like Nolan Ryan, Greg Maddux, and Tom Glavine who had long, successful, and injury-free careers.

Chill....that being said, there are plenty of guys with lots of "credentials" out there teaching garbage. His opinions are his opinions.... What would make me more interested in them would be if they could point to someone who is using their odd motion in high level competition and succeeding.... without that it's just theory....

quote:

What would make me more interested in them would be if they could point to someone who is using their odd motion in high level competition and succeeding

While I can't point you to someone who is using the pure version of Dr. Marshall's ideas, I can point you to someone who is doing something very similar and getting good results.

Josh Outman.

He is a prospect in the Phillies organization who has been widely ridiculed for his very unconventional mechanics (you think Marshall's motion looks weird) but has been very successful. He is able to consistently throw in the mid-90's but has a very sneaky delivery and late release point.

What I find interesting about his motion is that it was designed by his father Fritz who, working completely independently of Dr. Marshall, has come to many of the same conclusions.

The scientist in me finds examples like this of convergent evolution to be very interesting. It suggests that there is something fundamentally right to the approach taken by both men.

Personally, I don't judge a PC by their diplomas. I judge them by analyzing their teachings in light of physics and biomechanics. By how they support their teachings. By observing those pitchers who use their mechanics. And by common sense.

I'm sorry, but with what has come to light in this thread, I just cannot go along with CC's proposed mechanics. Again, this assumes the mechanics he teaches bear resemblance (albeit not perfect) to the video he posted.

I can fully appreciate the position that Coach Chris is in, that it's him against the world.

But it sure helps to be at least close to right.

So Chris you are uncertified and if you read Tom House you will notice that "The Pitchers Edge" is written by Tom, Nolan Ryan and DR John Gleddies. That book is a computerized break down of the pitchers mechanics.
You are not even close and the fear I have is that you are running around teaching young kids this garbage. I am a skeptic but not dilusional as you are. Dr John Gleddies was an evaluator of MLB pitchers. I would show him your video but he would wet himself. In my area we are lucky to have an abundance of prfessional pitching instruction. We had a Jays A club here for several years and I was lucky to know many of the stars in MLB including Chris Carpenter. I attended their workouts and even attended picnics where my son was able to throw with some of these guys and be instructed by them. I could name you a 100 or more guys in MLB like Carlos Delgado, Vernon Wells and on and on.
The idea that you are capable of of passing judgement is dilusional and even worse is dangerous. Non of my ideas are my own which in this case is a good thing but gleaned from years of instruction and study. I am a highly educated person in accounting economics and law and I would know the difference between dilusion and reality. You are out of touch. If you want to coach get proper certification and learn proper pitching techniques and get certified.This DR is a salesman and is taking your money. Anyone who tells you some things are good and others need work after viewing your video is pulling your leg.
You have gotten advice from people who knwo what they are talking about but only you and the doc know what the truth is. You scare me !

"If you read Tom House you will notice that 'The Pitchers Edge' is written by Tom, Nolan Ryan and DR John Gleddies. That book is a computerized break down of the pitchers mechanics."

Don't let the computerized mumbo-jumbo fool you. I have read the book multiple times and it says remarkably little of substance.

Also, and more importantly, how can you explain Mark Prior's injury problems if he has perfect mechanics? If you think it's due to poor conditioning, then why do Anthony Reyes and Paul Byrd -- who have nearly identical mechanics -- have even more physical problems? How can you make sense of Robb Nen's continual injury problems -- which ultimately ended his career -- given that he is such a student of Tom House?

He you ever wondered whether it's House, and not Marshall, who is truly selling Unobtainium?


"If you want to coach get proper certification and learn proper pitching techniques and get certified."

Who would you suggest I contact for certification? What would I learn that I don't already know?


"This DR is a salesman and is taking your money. Anyone who tells you some things are good and others need work after viewing your video is pulling your leg."

Here's the problem with your logic; I've already bought everything he has to sell (and he's going to give me his 2006 video for free). He has no incentive to string me along because there is no next level of tapes to buy into. He just wants me to do it right so I can teach it right.

CoachChris,

I have poked fun at this a few times. I wanted a cheap chuckle and meant you no harm. I apologize for that.

It is clear you are passionate about this and have taken an extraordinary amount of time and energy in learning as much as you have. That being said, I relate it to myself on two different fronts. My personal baseball experience ended at high school. I was not active in the game in any way (other than watching my beloved Sox) for 20 years until my son was born. Since he was 9, I have lived and slept baseball. I have spent incredible amounts of time taking him to people who know much, much more than I could ever know. I find it laughable how little I knew before this journey began, and how much I know compared to the casual parent of a high school player. Yet, I still feel like an amateur compared to some of these high level guys (pro scouts, college coaches, etc).

My background after high school (football and wrestling in HS) was power lifting (almost 24 years). To this day (10 years after I've stopped lifting), I read books, magazines, websites on training routines, exercises, etc. I contest that individuals who have never done it at a high level, and who give advice on lifting have absolutely no clue on it, no matter how much they've read, and whatever big fancy words they choose to throw around. Until you have felt the weight of 600 pounds on your back, and the mental ability to block out pain before you've even begun the lift, you cannot tell another how to do it. No way! I can go out today, and on technique alone, out lift others who are 30 years younger and have been working out for a couple of years. I occasionally do it to motivate my son, who is, by most accounts, stronger than most kids he knows.

All that being said, you've never been on a mound 60 feet from home plate (Please! I've seen the video). All the fancy medical terms aren't worth spit if you haven't felt it inside.

You have to know what it feels like, and to be able to bring visualization and the knowledge of that feeling together. I don't know if my words relate what I am trying to say, but I can visualize aspects of lifting, because I lived it for so many years.

What I tell my son in baseball is what I've heard from very good coaches, and what I've read. Like you, I believe it to be correct. Yet, I can't feel what I am telling him (bringing the visualization and physical feeling together), so it is difficult for me to gauge the ease/difficulty of the task. Yet, if it pertains to lifting, I can use visualization to develop a physical feeling, and then guide him from there.

So, to bring this to a few words, you may be successful with the local little league kids, but you're wasting a lot of energy trying to reach out to higher levels. You cannot feel the technique to know it’s effect.

My final advice, take pitching lessons for a year or so, then maybe you can visualize and feel what you are trying to teach.

Judging by how you read here I am not surprised that you found little of anything..

No incentive !! you are a walking sales pitch just don't show the video.

quote:

Judging by how you read here I am not surprised that you found little of anything

The problem is that he lays out lots of big ideas but, aside from the towel drill, doesn't really tell you how to do anything to improve them.

It's descriptive and not prescriptive.

Of course that might be intentional. He might be giving people just enough to want to buy his video.

quote:

All that being said, you've never been on a mound 60 feet from home plate (Please! I've seen the video). All the fancy medical terms aren't worth spit if you haven't felt it inside.

But you're wrong here.

True, I haven't been on a mound during a HS, college, or professional game. However, you have to understand this stuff pretty well even if you are going to do a good job pitching batting practice (which I can after years of hard work).

If you think pitching BP is so easy, talk to all the coaches who can't. Instead, they are constantly hitting their kids.

One thing I learned as a result of throwing thousands of batting practice balls is that the ball will tend to go where the eyes are looking. If I look at the batter, I will tend to hit the batter (no matter how much I don't want to). If I look at the glove, I will tend to hit the glove.

When throwing BP without a catcher, I have found that I am much more accurate if I lock in on a rock or tuft or grass that is in the strike zone. If my eyes start to drift, so does the ball.

Last year I was able to quickly and easily settle down my pitchers when they got wild. When I would come back to the bench the other coaches would come up to me and ask me what I told them, expecting to hear something very technical. Instead, I told them that what I told pitchers was "Look at the glove, not the batter" and "Look at the glove. Throw to the glove." 9 times out of ten the next pitch was a strike.

I think those kinds of experiences give me a decent understanding of what's going on.

Pitcher's get hurt because they are involved in strenuous physical activity...Not to say that some don't do it better/smoother than others. Picking individuals and saying they were injured due to a specific mechanic is speculative at best. The actual cause could be what you see, or what you see when combined with something you don't see, or a combination of eight things including genetics. The idea that injuries must be caused by cumulative repetitive bad mechanics is flawed.
Pitchers can throw for 20 years then get hurt....Is this because they throw wrong? They can get hurt in 1st year...then throw the same way for another 15 without injury. Runners get hurt...are you looking for unique ways to run? They run the way they do to get somewhere quick. It won't change unless you supply a way to get there quicker..........same idea with pitching..have not seen it yet.

Update:
Wrote this then saw what Bbscout wrote. He said it better... Troy99

"Using Prior as an example of injury has some merit, but using Drysdale is way off base. He has a National League record of pitching 11 1/2 straight years without ever missing a start in a time where the pitchers pitched on 3 days rest. He hurt his arm in his 14th year in the big leagues which is way past the time most pitchers even pitch let alone have arm injuries."

I understand what you are saying. To a degree it's driven by my current limitations; by whose pictures I can get my hands on.


"Why don't you use Karl Spooner or Herb Score instead..."

I'm not familiar with their stories. Can you tell me the basics and why you think I should study them?


"Nolan Ryan had elbow surgery in 1975, but recovered and went on to a long career, and hurt his arm again in his last year."

In general I think Ryan is an example of what to do.


"Clemens had shoulder surgery in the mid 80's and is still going strong. I guess that from your point of view, Clemens must have a lousy delivery, or he never would have hurt his shoulder in the first place."

No, but he has changed his delivery significantly since he was in Boston. I would argue that he had to do that to continue to be successful.

I still say that if he can't prove anything, then it is still just a theory. And based on statistics, this theory has a much better chance of being wrong then ever proven right.

I will stick with over 100 years of trial and error (data) to base my teaching techniques on, not just someone's guess (theory). Are you willing to spend a significant amount of time working on something that is more than likely not going to work (statistically)? I think you would be much better off using some of the successful MLB pitchers that had injury free careers as your model. And even doing this, you will probably still have injuries in your career. Marshall's mechanics have never been proven to reduce injuries. Why? Apparently no one is capable of mastering them to give us evidence.

You can't believe that anyone is capable of telling you exactly how a baseball should be thrown. There are too many varables to ever throw a ball the same way twice. So even if someone mastered Marshall's mechanics, it would only be for one pitch.

Again, just my opinion

"Picking individuals and saying they were injured due to a specific mechanic is speculative at best. The actual cause could be what you see, or what you see when combined with something you don't see, or a combination of eight things including genetics."

But, in my opinion at least, that doesn't mean that it isn't worth asking the question.


"The idea that injuries must be caused by cumulative repetitive bad mechanics is flawed."

How? Why?


"Pitchers can throw for 20 years then get hurt....Is this because they throw wrong?"

Possibly. Some problems may take longer than others to take their toll.


"They can get hurt in 1st year...then throw the same way for another 15 without injury."

Not in my experience. The guys who went on to long careers after experiencing injuries (e.g. Clemens) had to change their mechanics.


"Runners get hurt...are you looking for unique ways to run?"

Not at the moment. ;-)

Seriously, I am interested in other ideas about how to hit. Ideas like rotational hitting.

bbscout,

I'd be interested in conducting an experiment that is relevant to this topic if you are interested.

Around draft time, send me the names and/or clips of some guys that you're looking at and I'll give you my prediction of what will happen to them. Then we'll see what happens over time.

If I'm wrong, then you lose nothing. If I'm right, then I'll teach you what I know and you'll end up with an advantage over the other scouts since your guys will be less injury-prone.

I'm already talking to someone in another organization about doing just this.

ROFLMAO

And I'll teach bbscout the benefits of weak hands

Chis, this is a tread from another message board. This guy came from South Africa and has parallels to you. Not the mechanics but the dilusions that he could re invent baseball. Probably very educated.
He wrote a 5 page ketter to try to get a coach dismissed because he didn't agree with his drills etc. He dosen't take pro advise ie Jim Ridley former P coach for the Jays now withy Twins. He knows better.

Message:
Big Hop
Let me first of all say that I wont step to your level of personal insults but I will try to use some logic to answer your statements. First of all I have heard everybody say the same thing about long toss yet nobody has provided any shred of scientific proof to back up their statemnt.

The only conclusion I can draw from this is that this conviction, stems from BS, better known as belief systems. I have further done an experiment with my son, by letting him stand square and throw just with the arm.. No matter how many time he threw, the velocity of the ball more or less stayed the same regardless of the arm speed.

I futher found that by letting my son go through the pitching motion, of a balanced start,with good posture and with forward movement, landing in the right position and doing proper rotation with the correct release point and follow through increased pitching velocity dramatically.

So maybe I just dont get it. I also did a little research and found the following which I quote :

Long toss has little to no value in any of those areas especially since pitching velocity is not an arm strength activity. The arm is the delivery device of the forces of the pitcher's body. It is virtually along for the ride. There are no muscle contractions going on in the pitcher's shoulder from the landing position until ball release which is considered to be the "arm acceleration" phase of pitching.

If the arm does not accelerate itself in pitching then why long toss?

Pitching velocity is not the result of arm strength or muscle contractions but is the result of stored elastic energy. Yes, you must use muscle contractions to get the arm into position to accelerate but there is little activity going on within the arm to accelerate it.

This means that no amount of long toss is going to improve throwing velocity.

After reading it carefully it really makes a lot of sense dont you think?

I further used my cricket knowledge which with bowling(pitching) also places a tremendous amount of strain on the body. I also spoke to professional cricketers and nowhere did anybody play long toss.

Now thats astounding if you think that on average the cricket bowler (pitcher) deliver(pitches) 360 balls per day and can sometimes do this for 5 days consecutively. Also remember that cricket currently holds the record for the highest velocity namely 112 miles per hour.

Hob I also think that you really have it wrong. Muscle memory does not come from pitching drills, but from repetition.

You see by doing it over and over the muscles kind of remenber things. Now if its going to be the right muscle memory doesnt it make sense that it should come from throwing bullpens of the mound under game conditions.

Surely you will also have the opportunity to improve control and command. Now it appears from reading some of steps Scout reports, thanks step, that control and command is always a big problem.

Throwing of flat ground does not simulate proper pitching due to the forces of gravity thats in play when throwing of the mound. If you want I will provide you with the scientific description of all of these forces.As a matter of fact is places increased strain on the arm

It also appears that you contradict yourself a little bit and I quote "You can't hit a spot with a certain pitch if you are still sub-consciously thinking about where your leg has to land or where ur arm lines up etc...

It is my experience, and this happened when we attended full winter pitching clinics with Jim Ridley from the Cardinals, that what you are describing is a direct result from pitching drills. You see pitching drills is not natural throwing, it makes you mechanical and I have found that the pitcher does exactly what you describe.

Pitching should be natural and you fix things a little bit at a time after doing proper video analysis

I believe I have already answered your last question. We dont do long toss but blocked bullpens twice a week of the mound under game conditions where we work on control and command, one of the most important things that a pitcher needs to be able to do.

Now Hob if you can refute any of the above with scientif fact I am all ears.

Ps The Jim Ridley sessions cost me double the amount of the Dick Mills information and it contributed very little towards my sons development. Good investment or not?

All time "Golden Thread" Best Single Response ever...
I have permissiosn from Catchermom and FO to post this..

Coach Chris

Have you ever heard of confidentiality of a scout's information?

Shep Still Cares

Whatever.

I think I may be on to something and am trying to figure out some way to test my theory.

I'll just come up with a different approach.

Chris,

Over the next year you will be able tosee several of the very best pitchers in the country on baseballwebtv.com.

Many will become high draft picks. After looking at them pitch, you can give us your assessment. We would not release your info to the public until after the draft. Then you and the rest of us can find out if you're on to something here.

This would carry a lot more weight because you would be making these predictions ahead of time instead of just finding out who has been injured and finding something they were doing wrong. The current subjects give you a big heads up, being they have been injured. More interesting to know ahead of time.

The last time I checked most power pitchers and good pitchers fall a bit to the 1st base side? Not Hop forward to the plate?

Look at Goose Gossage....

Chris, your cupping the wrist is in part a byproduct of getting your arm up way to early with no external rotation. Which causes one to push the ball instead of throw it. fingers behind wrist, you cant because your so dead set on doing so many things just flat out wrong. The handbreak does more than just take the hands apart. Good pitchers are throwing the ball from the time the hands break, there using the distance in which the arms do move to build momentum, you dont.. Therefore your about as efficient in this regard as a drinking glass with no bottom in it.Its frusterating to see somebody be so wrong and not know it. DO you read the stuff you write? Which I guess really wouldnt matter to much because you just flat out do not know what the hell it is you are looking at. Another hint 6-9 months is not even CLOSE to being long enough to learn this stuff. The vast majority of these people have been going at it for over 20 years. Thats AFTER our playing days were over, your playing days never began. Stick to elevators and whatever else it is that you do, you sound like a success story in those areas. Here your an embarrassment to say the least. Sorry but at least Im honest in my opinions. I honestly have never in my life witnessed a person be so wrong but at the same time so serious. I did read on another site that you have turned into "eteamz featuring chris oleary a Marshall advocate" where you actually liked a kids delivery, R.S. to be exact. Id suggest you study EXACTLEY what he does for the next 3 years and then report back. By then perhaps you will have a slight clue. Again sorry for the roughness,aw not really! I will give you some kudos for having some major stones though anybody that would post that mess you call a pitch be it whatever time of the year has definately got some guts!

Whoa Polish stepped up to the plate and hit a grand slam!!!

PUT IT ON THE BOOOOAAARRRDDD!!!!

quote:

DO you read the stuff you write?

Yes. We just have a difference of opinion when it comes to what ideal mechanics look like?

I did learn a lot from looking at JS's motion. However, he does have some problems (e.g. jerking the head) that others (e.g. bbscout)also think is generally problematic. See this (active) thread...

http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1491034941/m/3381067151

I'd love to hear your .02

Difference of opinion is putting it mildly. you would do well to heed Jasons advice. Look what these guys do right instead of harping on what you may THINK is wrong.

One other question Chris, why highjack every site on the net? Steve Ellis too now? Why not do your stuff on your own site if its good people will flock to you and become "olearyites", man if that aint a scary scary thought nothing is. You have not a clue what it takes to compete at a high level in regards to pitching. You have less of a clue in regards to training. Of course this is only my opinion but beings Ive been around and actively involved with this for over 20 years I feel some sense of validity when I say it, and even more when I read what you say in regards to both! Good luck with your son Chris, I can guarantee you he will need all he can get. One reason is he will have to overcome a huge barrier, his pitching coach. thats gonna be tough Im thinking very tough!

quote:

One other question Chris, why highjack every site on the net? Steve Ellis too now?

Steve asked me to become a moderator of his site after seeing and liking the analyses I put together.

Coach Chris, You are obviously an outstanding pitcher as indicated by your video,do you think you will be drafted,and if so which round?

quote:

Originally posted by Coach Chris:

quote:

Do you have any qualification to coach and instruct pitchers ?

I would note that Steve Ellis of has no problems with my credentials and qualifications. ?

----------------------------


Mike Marshall, whether you understand his approach, or like him or not, and due to his MLB pitching experiences and accolades, is a source of information. What's NOT clear, is whether Chris has traveled to Tampa, and met Marshall and completed his ~10 months of training.

Steve Ellis, on the other hand, a retired minor league "A" ball RHP (at age 23?), is also a source of information. And due to his retirement, desires to 'find himself' by hoping his new business become exciting yet profitable.

What I read from Chris's nine months of quals to obtain self proclaimed pitching credentials, I hear it's been difficult for Chris, as a parent, to choose legitimate sources, to lead his 11 y/o son in the right baseball direction.

Maybe it's time to take a poll of this web sites Baseball Dad's to understand and summarize their baseball experiences with their son as a Dad vs a Coach (whether part-time-FT). Is it time?

Regards,
Bear

Bear,

Dads only?

Just came across this thread and the video posted by Coach Chris. Best laugh I have had all day. This is the most unathletic example of throwing a baseball I have seen since my kid played t-ball.

Coach Chris, all this research and theorizing - I don't get it - seems like a lot of work. For what purpose? Let the 11 year old kids PLAY the game. Over time the cream will rise to the top. The athleticlly gifted players will move on to play at higher levels and receive progressively more experienced coaching. Those not so gifted will migrate to other activities. The kids that I have seen that went on to play college and pro baseball stood out when they were 6 - 8 - 10 years old. All this effort directed at grade school/middle school age kids is silly and potentially counterproductive. Relax, support the child. Enjoy the experience. Kids grow up fast and sooner or later they won't be playing baseball anymore anyway so take the pressure off and let them have some fun.

I show my friends the Coach Chris clip often. Life can be difficult, work can be slow, sometimes days drag...but show that clip and the laughter returns!

Good idea Baseballdad1228

Everybody click this please
http://www.chrisoleary.com/videos/MarshallPitchingMotio...ndUpSet_12312005.mov

I'll be the first person to admit that what I'm doing in the video looks different.

You also have to take into account that I was simply trying to illustrate Mike Marshall's arm action on a cold, wet New Years day.

However, that doesn't mean that it doesn't work.

quote:

You also have to take into account that I was simply trying to illustrate Mike Marshall's arm action on a cold, wet New Years day.

However, that doesn't mean that it doesn't work.

So you mean to tell me when you throw on a hot summer day that your perfect Marshall mechanics will improve? Whoa well I just have to see that! Please upload another video of this, the old video isn't good enough....

Next time you have the urge to make believe you're Mike Marshall's Gilligan in your yard and grab the video camera, first you should get dressed up in a Dodger uniform you can buy from Modells. Live the dream to the max, hike up them stirrups, pull that brim down over your eyes and fire that baseball against the back of the garage with all you have.

Then take off the uniform and grab a rake. Start making yourself useful.

In the immortal words of Dennis Miller...

"Ouch babe"

I finally got to see this. I am sure when its warm and dry, and its not New years Day, he'll look like Clemens.

Why do I keep thinking about American Idol when I view that clip ?

Yes, you can almost hear "She-Bang" by William Huang as Coach Chris releases the ball.

LOL!

She bangs is not a bad song?

quote:

Originally posted by Bear:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Coach Chris:
[QUOTE]Do you have any qualification to coach

Maybe it's time to take a poll of this web sites Baseball Dad's to understand and summarize their baseball experiences with their son as a Dad vs a Coach (whether part-time-FT). Is it time?

Regards,
Bear

Refer to poll in Mens' Forum!

The song may not be bad but the singer sure is.

Baseball America has an interview with Mike Marshall in the latest issue. The guy is outspoken, that is for sure.