Marshall Pitching Motion

quote:

Originally posted by Coach Chris:

"Does he really want the ball taken out of the glove that early."

Yes. In fact, this is one of the things that Dr. Marshall thinks I do well. The reason is that breaking the hands this early reduces the strain on the shoulder (among other things). Dr. Marshall refers to this as the Crow-Hop Rhythm (as in the crow hops that outfielders and some infielders use when throwing).

Also costs you 3 to 5.

Still waiting for that clip....you know....a Marshallite throwing 85+.

quote:

Yes, he has seen it. He thinks I do some things right but need to work on some other things.

Sounds like a salesman to me. Chris I know you believe what you say but yiu are totally wrong.

I just had a frustrating encounter with a Dick Mills groupie with the same results. A man who has no clue teaching his kids and evaluating a pitching concept from a position of ignorance.
Your logic is flawed and your conclusions are based on ignorance and flawed information rendering it garbage.
Do these pitchers know you are using their photos etc for a possible book ?

Pardon my error on the foot swinging back.

However, read OBR 8.01. You agree that this is the windup, not the stretch. And the rules make that classification clear. Since your "normal" pitching motion is to go to the plate from a position that begins with your foot behind the rubber, I believe you will find that you will be balked for any move to first (explainatory note in 8.05 (a)).

I agree that too much flail is not desirable, for several reasons.

Stress leads to fatigue. Stress is a force placed on the rotator cuff. Stress felt under light load conditions, as I described, will be much higher under the load of pitching.

You don't draw conclusions based on one or two data points. Just because something places additional stress on the body does not mean that every single person who does that is going to have an injury. You know that. You have to be smart enough to know that. Please don't start that kind of ridiculous stuff. That does not mean that it is best practice to do something that places unnecessary stress on the body.

Please read what I wrote carefully. I said that Koufax was not using the overhead slot because of the tilt.

You misapplied the concept of outfielders judging the ball. Had you read & applied Adair more carefully, you would understand what I am talking about.

You quoted the conclusions (intentionally or unintentionally) from one of his topics, and now you say he doesn't deal with the topic?

I never said a two seamer was a sinker. It has movement in the horizontal plane. Properly thrown, it has late movement (when from a RHP, moving in on a RHB). And no pitch rises, unless it is thrown underhand. Again, Adair has a good discussion of this. It is all relative, and that is what is important to a concept call deception.

Your skater analogy from your earlier post is faulty. How does the skater initially build rotational velocity (e.g., when they first move to try & develop a spin)? Not by pulling the arms in. What are the conditions when the pull the arms in? They are on a very low friction surface and they have already built their initial momentum.

You keep talking about the glove flying out. Pulling the glove elbow back does not mean the arm flies out. So I have no idea why you keep repeating your statement.

>>>
"Leaving the glove tucked does not provide this force."

Agreed. But keeping the glove tucked in keeps this force from being dissipated.
<<<

Excuse me, but if you leave the glove tucked THERE IS NO FORCE. SO THERE IS NO FORCE TO KEEP FROM BEING DISSIPATED!

And you don't understand the concept of the glove elbow being pulled back. When the elbow is pulled back, the force IS acting in a vector that is perpindicular to the axis of the torso. That is pretty elementary and obvious.

The "elbow hanging down" is not what I said. I said the forearm is hanging down perpindicular to the ground (e.g., 90 degrees from the upper arm, and the upper arm is parallel to the ground). And this is the starting point (the position of the glove arm when the throwing arm is in the high L), not the end point. If you begin your motion with the glove arm against the body, it cannot exert any appreciable force on the torso at all.

Mass farther from the axis of rotation means a greater moment arm (force x distance) when a force is applied as that mass is moved. Which means a greater moment is exerted on the torso, which means the added rotational velocity will be greater. This is a very basic concept. You cannot break the laws of physics.

I really think you need to obtain a more thorough grasp of mechanical engineering (applied physics) before you continue your analyses. Then the conversation can be constructive. Until then, I don't think continuing this tread is useful.

And yes, Nolan does more of a glove arm tuck, but even he pulls the elbow back some. You can see the elbow jutting somewhat above his back at his finish.

Have a good day.

quote:

Chris, your essentially finished before you even start to throw the ball. You are cupping your wrist badly which basically kills all your chances to throw before you even throw.

Not sure what you mean by "cupping."

Some of this could be due to the fact that I was A) working hard to supinate my wrist and B) didn't have a ball in my hand so as to demonstrate the supination. My wrist was likely tighter than it should be.

If you are referring to the fact that I turn my forearm over early and have my palm facing upward when my pitching forearm is horizontal, then that is by design.

quote:

Also costs you 3 to 5.

Why?

quote:

Originally posted by Coach Chris:
Some of this could be due to the fact that I was A) working hard to supinate my wrist and B) didn't have a ball in my hand so as to demonstrate the supination. My wrist was likely tighter than it should be.

You also advocate supination???

Because there is too much time between the load and the unload.

Your entire motion is one big "pause".

Somehow you think you can throw hard by throwing soft. It ain't gonna happen, son.

Your so afraid of getting hurt so you won't miss work that you're going to be out of work because you're afraid of getting hurt.

My best AFLAC duck impression.

I think Chris has been pulling our leg with this entire thing. He just can't be serious. The video is the thing that clinches it. But that is okay, sparked some good conversation.

quote:

Then I have two more words for you: Fosbury Flop. Dick Fosbury wqas widely ridiculed for how he got over the high jump bar. Until he starting kicking everyone's butts.

Please show examples of players with Marshall approved motions kicking everyone's butt. Until I see some results IMO Marshall is a flop and not a Fosbury flop.

What would Marshall think of the pitcher in my avatar?

How about Jake Peavy of SD Padres??? How are his mechanics in your opinion???

Is he going to have arm and shoulder problems too Chris???

Bet Kevin Towers and Team USA hopes not.

Shep

In CoachChris's defense, it is similar to the mechanics my son't hitting coach uses when throwing BP. Son's hitting coach was hitting instructor and minor league coach for MLB team for almost twenty years. (OK, OK, he doesn't look as stiff, nor does he hop)

Unfortunately for Chris, he throws that way so my son can hit better. He can time the arm swing, pick up the ball well, the ball is straight as an arrow, etc.

Maybe Chris can use that to train a bunch of BP pitchers, it seems to come in handy there.

quote:

Originally posted by hit&run:
Unfortunately for Chris, he throws that way so my son can hit better. He can time the arm swing, pick up the ball well, the ball is straight as an arrow, etc.

Lot better than hitting off a Tee.

quote:

You also advocate supination???

Yes, if done at the correct moment.

By definition, if you are to be able to powerfully and significantly pronate through the acceleration phase, then your forearm must be supinated going into the acceleration phase. If your forearm is neutral going into the acceleration phase, then you won't be able to pronate as hard or as much.

Supinating before the acceleration phase isn't problematic because the forces on the elbow and shoulder are relatively low (since the shoulders haven yet started turning).

quote:

How about Jake Peavy of SD Padres??? How are his mechanics in your opinion???

I'll put Peavy on my list of guys to analyze. In the meantime, here's a set of first impressions. Keep in mind that I know nothing of his injury history, so this might serve as an interesting test of my abilities.

1) I don't like how he finishes with his glove down to his side and sometimes behind his back. This leaves him in a weak fielding position.

2) Ala Don Drysdale, he reaches back and takes the ball well behind his back (aka his Acromial Plane). That puts him at risk of straining the front of his rotator cuff.

3) His timing of when he starts turning his shoulders seems good, so I don't see any problems with his Labrum.

4) He stiffens his glove-side leg, but only well after releasing the ball. Since he finishes relatively more upright than most (which IMHO is good) this doesn't abbreviate the deceleration path of his pitching arm (which is also good).

5) He does have a lot of pronation after releasing the ball, but in a few photos his forearm is extremely supinated up to the point of releasing the ball, which focuses the load on his UCL and will likely cause elbow problems in the relatively near future.

This prognosis is not good....

Will pass on analysis.

Thanks Chris

Shep

Whoops!! Wrong Smiley!

Sorry "C"

Shep

Chris I have to ask what qualifications do you have to call yourself a coach let alone a pitching instructor?
Do you have any certification ? Here our coaches need atleast a Level 2 to coach kids.

"However, read OBR 8.01. You agree that this is the windup, not the stretch. And the rules make that classification clear. Since your 'normal' pitching motion is to go to the plate from a position that begins with your foot behind the rubber, I believe you will find that you will be balked for any move to first (explainatory note in 8.05 (a))."

The relevant parts of 8.01 are "When a pitcher holds the ball with both hands in front of his body, with his entire pivot foot on, or in front of and touching but not off the end of the pitcher's plate, and his other foot free, he will be considered in the Windup Position. The pitcher may have one foot, not the pivot foot, off the rubber and any distance he may desire back of a line which is an extension to the back edge of the pitcher's plate, but not at either side of the pitcher's plate...From this position he may: (1) deliver the ball to the batter, or (2) step and throw to a base in an attempt to pick off a runner, or (3) disengage the rubber (if he does he must drop his hand to his sides). In disengaging the rubber the pitcher must step off with his pivot foot and not his free foot first."
The rules allow the pitcher to either go to the plate or step and throw to a base. Rule 8.05(a) says "The pitcher, while touching his plate, makes any motion naturally associated with his pitch and fails to make such delivery; If a left-handed or right-handed pitcher swings his free foot past the back edge of the pitcher's rubber, he is required to pitch to the batter except to throw to second base on a pick off play."
In this case, the motion normally associated with going to the plate would be to step directly toward Home Plate. When throwing to 1B, you would instead step directly toward 1B. That makes it a legal move.


"Stress leads to fatigue. Stress is a force placed on the rotator cuff. Stress felt under light load conditions, as I described, will be much higher under the load of pitching."

I generally agree but not in this case. The tightness and thus the stress go away over time as you develop the right muscles.


"You misapplied the concept of outfielders judging the ball. Had you read & applied Adair more carefully, you would understand what I am talking about."

I have re-read it and don't know what you're referring to. Please explain.


"You keep talking about the glove flying out. Pulling the glove elbow back does not mean the arm flies out. So I have no idea why you keep repeating your statement."

Then I must be misunderstanding what you are saying. As long as the glove stays close to the body, then I'm (relatively) happy.


"Excuse me, but if you leave the glove tucked THERE IS NO FORCE. SO THERE IS NO FORCE TO KEEP FROM BEING DISSIPATED!"

You don't leave the glove tucked. You point it at the target and then pull it into the pec.


"And you don't understand the concept of the glove elbow being pulled back. When the elbow is pulled back, the force IS acting in a vector that is perpindicular to the axis of the torso. That is pretty elementary and obvious."

This is true as long as the glove is pulled into the shoulder.


"If you begin your motion with the glove arm against the body, it cannot exert any appreciable force on the torso at all."

Agreed.


"Mass farther from the axis of rotation means a greater moment arm (force x distance) when a force is applied as that mass is moved. Which means a greater moment is exerted on the torso, which means the added rotational velocity will be greater. This is a very basic concept. You cannot break the laws of physics."

Agreed. But to keep inertia from coming into play, you have to bring the glove in toward the axis of rotation (e.g. in toward the glove side pec).


"And yes, Nolan does more of a glove arm tuck, but even he pulls the elbow back some. You can see the elbow jutting somewhat above his back at his finish."

Agreed. He may do it perfectly. He pulls the glove into his pec but accentuates the rotational force by pulling his glove side elbow (but not his glove) behind his body. I do think this motion would be more efficient if he kept his elbow high (e.g. at the level of the shoulder) rather than bringing it down to his glove side hip.

quote:

Because there is too much time between the load and the unload.

I actually agree with you (to a degree).

Assuming that you reverse-rotate your hips but not your shoulders, pitching from the standard Set position may put you in the best position to get to the plate quickly while still taking advantage of what can be gained from a countermovement.

This is because for a countermovement to be effective (e.g. to increase the force that can be applied), the unloading must immediately follow the loading process. The longer you wait between the loading and the unloading, the more energy that dissipates.

For example, that explains why, when hitting a golf ball, you must swing immediately after winding up. Wait too long before swinging and you lose the benefit of the countermovement or loading/unloading process.

quote:

What would Marshall think of the pitcher in my avatar?

Marshall would hate him (but he hates everybody).

I on the other hand think that his longevity and lack of injuries say something interesting.

The thought that Nolan Ryan could have been more efficient is mind boggling. It's like saying that Tom Seaver could have been smarter.

Chris

I do believe we are going to have to take the honor away from TomLongpost and give the honor to you sir.

How does CoachChrisLongpost sound to you??

Kinda has a nice ring like a jingle.

Better watch out cause in the unusual unusual thread> wood, JT and a few others may want to add Karma and make it KarmaCoachChrisLongpost.

Still wouldn't be nearly as long as some of your posts. Slow down son. We are not going anywhere just yet.

Shep

Yeah, so why do you break your hands so early.

Can you say you're slooooooooooooooow with your load/unload?

quote:

Originally posted by Coach Chris:

quote:

What would Marshall think of the pitcher in my avatar?

Marshall would hate him (but he hates everybody).

Except himself.

Still gets an 80 for courage.

Shep

We all have dreams.

Shep

Chris my son pitches and picks off better when he loads and hesitates before coming forward. I find his breaking ball has more bite .

I would like you to respond to my question about qualifications.

Shep's Thought for the day-

We all need to embrace CoachChris for his dedication.

Shep

quote:

The thought that Nolan Ryan could have been more efficient is mind boggling. It's like saying that Tom Seaver could have been smarter.

Dr. Marshall says this about Ryan. I won't. That is worthless (and incredibly arrogant) speculation.

What I will say is that I don't think Mark Prior has perfect mechanics and I don't think he needed to experience as many injuries as he has.

quote:

I would like you to respond to my question about qualifications.

Exactly which question are you referring to?

quote:

Yeah, so why do you break your hands so early. Can you say you're slooooooooooooooow with your load/unload?

I want to get my arm up early.

However, it does look like I stall at the top of my arm swing.

That is a timing flaw that is due to lack of practice at the time the video was taken.

Where bwill I find this book ? in fictional or Humour ?

quote:

Except himself.

Wrong.

He hates how he threw in 1974 (the year he won the Cy Young).

That in my opinion is taking things a little too far toward the perfectionist end of the pool.

:-)

Do you have any qualification to coach and instruct pitchers ?

quote:

Do these pitchers know you are using their photos etc for a possible book ?

No. If I do end up publishing something I will of course have to get their permissions and secure the rights to some images.

Right now all this is a personal project that has gotten a bit (or a maybe lot) out of hand.

How happy do you think they would be if they knew you were posting pictures on a public web site and disecting their mechanics. What would you say your qualifications were to do this.
Picture Nolan Ryan standing in front of you and screaming at you with a baseball in his hands.
It is true that there are guys who pitch in MLB that don't have ideal mechanics but who are you to opinionate in public ?

Its alright Chris I would hope nobody here would pursue criminal charges of copyright violations.

Want to suggest that Coach Chris go back right now and remove demonstration clip in backyard and continue posting and responding like nothing has happened and I'm going back now to remove all of my references toward backyard video and apologize because most of us here wouldn't look too much better ourselves and don't have the right to say a word! Follow me son??

Shep Cares

quote:

Do you have any qualification to coach and instruct pitchers ?

It depends what you regard as qualifications. Here's what I have. Judge for yourself.

- I have spent most of my career working as an analyst and troubleshooter of very large and complex computer systems. I have spent half of my career working side by side with programmers helping them to analyze and debug the systems that they have built. One product with my name on it is a middle-market CRM product called SalesLogix (I helped design and build the database synchronization system). I also helped build www.agedwards.com. Compared to debugging a multi-tier, web based appplication with 20,000 moving parts, debugging a pitcher is relatively easy. It's all about looking for patterns.

- I have spent the past 9 months immersing myself in the physiology and kinesiology of pitching. In that time I have read hundreds of technical journal articles. This draws on my experience working as a paralegal analyzing the medical histories of people who said they had asbestosis (most didn't).

- I have done extensive research into the physiology of other overhead throwing sports like cricket, water polo, javelin, and handball.

- I have read everything that Dr. Marshall has written about the physiology of pitching and have asked him numerous questions over the past 6 months. Whenever I have a question, I ask him. If he doesn't give me a good enough answer, then I go to the journals.

- I have spent the past 5 years serving as my son's (11U) pitching coaching and the pitching coach of the teams he has played on.

One way to think of me is as a Moneyball-inspired analyst of the physiology of the the pitching motion.

I would note that Steve Ellis of www.TheCompletePitcher.com has no problems with my credentials and qualifications. That's why he made me a moderator of www.letstalkpitching.com

quote:

Chris my son pitches and picks off better when he loads and hesitates before coming forward. I find his breaking ball has more bite.

You can hesitate, just not for too long.

Also, this idea of countermovements and loading/unloading is more of an issue when it comes to fastballs. Curveballs aren't thrown as at high of a velocity.