Matching the plane?????

quote:

Originally posted by Infopimp:
Kind of disproves weathervaning, eh?

So....we've killed counter-rotation. We've killed leg hinging. We've killed weathervaning. We've killed heel drop starting the swing. We've killed torque.

What good is he?

He's real good at the mental side of hitting.

What should weight dist be at contact?

No idea.

It's not a teach.

quote:

Originally posted by Infopimp:
No idea.

It's not a teach.

Thanks.....how about at toe touch....does that matter?

Too advanced for me.

Troy, it's not about teaching when to begin the stride and where to put the elbows and hips leading....

It's about knowing how to rotate with connection, using the correct power source and how to use posture properly.......Once this is learned, simply rotate to the ball when your brain tells you to.......

"What happens in your model if we are going to that specific point in space but your timing is off just a little?"

Probably a hard hit ball, tough to handle....My guess.....

quote:

Originally posted by troy99:
So....lets start with simple. I teach my boys a no-stride swing. They are taught to be 50/50. They load (very minor looking move) the hips, as they see the ball in pitchers hand. This move results in the front foot coming up slightly off the heel. At the time of commitment the hips lead (explosively) the shoulders (hands). The back elbow stays close to the body unless they are fooled. (teach them it is like a punch). Work hard to keep the arms from casting out. This is the most common repeated flaw.

Now I know you'll hate this but we also teach them to hit thru the ball (3 balls for the young ones). I understand why you don't like this....Question... for less than MLB caliber hitters...do you see no value in "staying thru the zone" a little to compensate for slightly poor timing?

What happens in your model if we are going to that specific point in space but your timing is off just a little?


Am i ruining these guys?

Put them in their stance. Tilt over the plate. Stick the butt out. Vertical load...go forward by turning......Rotate........like hell.

Experiment with arm/hand position and posture until they can rotate the barrel to the ball without using arms/hands.

Rotate like hell. Imagine you're in a tube the width of your body/shoulders/whatever. Rotate like hell to force the energy upward out the top.

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
Info, do you think Diablo is capable of unlearning?......

Too religious.

I agree....

quote:

Originally posted by Infopimp:

quote:

Originally posted by troy99:
So....lets start with simple. I teach my boys a no-stride swing. They are taught to be 50/50. They load (very minor looking move) the hips, as they see the ball in pitchers hand. This move results in the front foot coming up slightly off the heel. At the time of commitment the hips lead (explosively) the shoulders (hands). The back elbow stays close to the body unless they are fooled. (teach them it is like a punch). Work hard to keep the arms from casting out. This is the most common repeated flaw.

Now I know you'll hate this but we also teach them to hit thru the ball (3 balls for the young ones). I understand why you don't like this....Question... for less than MLB caliber hitters...do you see no value in "staying thru the zone" a little to compensate for slightly poor timing?

What happens in your model if we are going to that specific point in space but your timing is off just a little?


Am i ruining these guys?

Put them in their stance. Tilt over the plate. Stick the butt out. Vertical load...go forward by turning......Rotate........like hell.

Experiment with arm/hand position and posture until they can rotate the barrel to the ball without using arms/hands.

Rotate like hell. Imagine you're in a tube the width of your body/shoulders/whatever. Rotate like hell to force the energy upward out the top.

What age groups have you taught this?

Would you please give us your interpretation of the term vertical load? Thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by troy99:

What age groups have you taught this?

16 and up.

quote:

Originally posted by BaseballCoach:
Would you please give us your interpretation of the term vertical load? Thanks.

What does a linebacker do just before unloading on the ball carrier?

What does a basketball player do just before jumping?

quote:

Originally posted by Infopimp:

quote:

Originally posted by troy99:

What age groups have you taught this?

16 and up.

Thanks ..think I understand much better now... I appreciate your time...

quote:

Originally posted by Infopimp:
What does a linebacker do just before unloading on the ball carrier?

What does a basketball player do just before jumping?

Good analogy. I can relate to that.

But, how would you descibe that movement in regards to a hitter preparing to swing? Not only do I need to understand it, I would need to be able to accurately explain it to my players.

Thanks again. You guys are on a roll tonight.

P.S.--- I know how I might describe it and can only guess how somebody else might describe it. But to further my understanding of your beliefs, I need to know how you would describe it.

"...(notice the balance, because all a stride does is break inertia, and re-establish the balance point)"

Diablo said this earlier.....I just want to say that this is not so.....The purpose of the stride is to create weight shift momentum.....

quote:

Originally posted by BaseballCoach:

quote:

Originally posted by Infopimp:
What does a linebacker do just before unloading on the ball carrier?

What does a basketball player do just before jumping?

Good analogy. I can relate to that.

But, how would you descibe that movement in regards to a hitter preparing to swing? Not only do I need to understand it, I would need to be able to accurately explain it to my players.

Thanks again. You guys are on a roll tonight.

P.S.--- I know how I might describe it and can only guess how somebody else might describe it. But to further my understanding of your beliefs, I need to know how you would describe it.

I highly recommend a DVD by Steve Englishbey. Former first round draft choice of Houston Astros. Absolutely the best at teaching pelvic loading/unloading. If you want I'll give you his email address.

But, get into the hitting stance, stick your butt out, bend at the waist. You'll end up in a position very similar to a linebacker. You should feel a load between the upper and lower body. Don't push with the legs but use them for stability as you unload this relationship between the upper and lower body. Similar to a linebacker unloading (although the linebacker doesn't rotate along with it).

quote:

I highly recommend a DVD by Steve Englishbey. Former first round draft choice of Houston Astros. Absolutely the best at teaching pelvic loading/unloading. If you want I'll give you his email address.

If you don't mind, I'll PM you about this.

quote:

But, get into the hitting stance, stick your butt out, bend at the waist. You'll end up in a position very similar to a linebacker. You should feel a load between the upper and lower body. Don't push with the legs but use them for stability as you unload this relationship between the upper and lower body. Similar to a linebacker unloading (although the linebacker doesn't rotate along with it).

When you say, "Don't push with the legs", are you saying.....don't push upward? That's how I would picture a "linebacker" unloading.....but then again, I've never been instructed on or played football....only baseball and basketball (wouldn't a basketball player unload upward to jump?).

More clarification please?

quote:

Originally posted by BaseballCoach:

quote:

I highly recommend a DVD by Steve Englishbey. Former first round draft choice of Houston Astros. Absolutely the best at teaching pelvic loading/unloading. If you want I'll give you his email address.

If you don't mind, I'll PM you about this.

quote:

But, get into the hitting stance, stick your butt out, bend at the waist. You'll end up in a position very similar to a linebacker. You should feel a load between the upper and lower body. Don't push with the legs but use them for stability as you unload this relationship between the upper and lower body. Similar to a linebacker unloading (although the linebacker doesn't rotate along with it).

When you say, "Don't push with the legs", are you saying.....don't push upward? That's how I would picture a "linebacker" unloading.....but then again, I've never been instructed on or played football....only baseball and basketball (wouldn't a basketball player unload upward to jump?).

More clarification please?

Yes, I'm saying don't push upward. Not that there isn't some subtle pushing/tension on the legs. That is the load.

What you want is the energy turning the pelvis against those legs. You don't want the energy into the legs pushing the pelvis.

quote:

Originally posted by Infopimp:
What you want is the energy turning the pelvis against those legs. You don't want the energy into the legs pushing the pelvis.

If I can comprehend your complete understanding of this, would I be able to initiate these two movements seperately and physically feel the difference between the two?

BD & IP,

Based on your comments regarding explosion at contact point, hands going momentarily soft after contact and swinging thru the ball being a fabrication, how one finishes (ext vs circ) would seem insignificant. Is this true?

Troy-

Keep asking questions.

You are getting the big koolaid/cult test here.

Dog and pimp are descring the swing of their guru which is oversimplified and based on the wrong kind of "efficiency".

Of course there is some counterrotation in a swing, of course there is separation/torque,of course part of the on the fly adjustment is tilting the axis of rotation forward/back or more or less up right, of course the swing will be level to the power plane and result in weathervaning (an effect not a cause still a potentially useful cue),the key plane matching control is NOT made with "spine angle", it is controlled by shoulder arm action as the swing proceeds and supported by well synched weight shift timing. The spine is more like a universal joint/flexible torsion bar, it doesn't get rigidly set and stay there the way dog is suggesting.This would be way to early in the swing to be successful.They are just regurgitating the koolaid.They are not dewscribing a "high level swing". Keep searching.

The axis stays more leaned back for low ball which works with a more up/down vertical weight shift.This works for low ball and for off speed where the ball trajectory is more of a downslop.The plane is matched by more "sit".more vertical drop then UP.

The axis takes more time to get forward/upright with more forward weight shift. There is less "sit" (les backleg hinge/flex). Weight goes forward more.

Not understood by guru and devotees, but should be accounted for.

quote:

Originally posted by BaseballCoach:

quote:

Originally posted by Infopimp:
What you want is the energy turning the pelvis against those legs. You don't want the energy into the legs pushing the pelvis.

If I can comprehend your complete understanding of this, would I be able to initiate these two movements seperately and physically feel the difference between the two?

Certainly. In one the legs are anchored and the pelvis works against them. In the other the legs are pushing the pelvis.

Tom. G. Thanks...I'm shopping and listening not buying yet. I am working primarily with 11-12's (although I have a 15 who's working at it also). We have seen good results with the semi-local BI we've been working(off and on) with. (Cal Ripken World Series last year, from town of 9500). But I always like to compare...plus it's interesting to find where the BI gets his "buzz-words" etc. He's busy now (college coach) so I need to understand enough to keep them on track thru the season. This is my fourth son so I'm getting some skills. Locals around here think I know what I'm talking about (scary huh?)

BD-IP...really appreciate the time you have spent in the last day "educating" me. It contributes to my understanding of the swing.

Although I have studied some Mankin/Epstein in the past I'm by no means a devotee of either. Just like to learn...

I can learn alot sometimes from those that I don't always agree with.

Thanks again

quote:

If I can comprehend your complete understanding of this, would I be able to initiate these two movements seperately and physically feel the difference between the two?

Linear ...while I can feel these too done two different ways , I still feel they can both employed in a swing effectively and shown on clips to do so.

I think great athletes control this to the level and degree they want depending on their skill.

quote:

Originally posted by troy99:
Tom. G. Thanks...I'm shopping and listening not buying yet. I am working primarily with 11-12's (although I have a 15 who's working at it also).

Troy99,

I get the sense that when you asked IP what age group he worked with and he replied 16 and up, you were thinking this wouldn't be something your 11 and 12's could pick up? I could be wrong though.

Anyway, as someone that follows the same information/methods as both BD and IP, I can tell you that it can be taught to kids much younger. I teach it to my 5 year old, 7 year old and my twin 10 year olds. My wife even understands it (she went to see the lessons the boys had with Steve Englishbey).

Funny story there. She almost came unglued at our 5 year old's t-ball practice the other day. The "hitting coach" was telling him to stand straight up (he was tilting). She almost walked over to correct him but I told her to relax and not to worry about it (the tee was set pretty high anyway). Our son did it for one swing then went right back to tilting (it is already too ingrained in him). Later she went to see the head coach and told him she didn't think the hitting coach was teaching the right way. I find it all very amusing. Sounds like she is positioning herself for the hitting coach job!

Anyway, the thing to remember about Tom Guerry is that he is not a fan of IP's and BG’s guru so he has is own bias there. Ultimately you have to decide for yourself what to believe and what to teach. The best advice I can give you is that when you hear something go look at the video clips of high level hitters and see if it holds up. For example, go back and look at the Glauss clips. What is he doing to adjust to the different pitch locations? Does he or does he not change his spine angle?

Tom says:

“of course the swing will be level to the power plane and result in weathervaning (an effect not a cause still a potentially useful cue),the key plane matching control is NOT made with "spine angle", it is controlled by shoulder arm action as the swing proceeds and supported by well synched weight shift timing.”

Well, what do you think? I know what I think. I know the spine angle works because I've tried this stuff myself. I have also looked at other clips.

I’m not picking on Tom as I’ve read his stuff over the years and like some of the things he has to say – this isn’t one of them though.

Listen to what BD and IP have to say. Look at the clips. Read their stuff again. Look at the clips. Check out other sites such as baseball-fever.com where this stuff is also discussed and documented. Look at the clips. Look at the clips. Well, you get the idea!

Also, I'd highly recommend Steve Englishbey's DVDs.

Joe

Feels like cinco de Mayo around here. Proof !!!!



Bluedog, Sandman and Info, if anybody can read and see like I hope they can. You guys, (my mentors), have at least won a battle in proving your point about how it's done my friends!!! Great work here in this thread and to the point, may I add! Shep Let me see if I can put a few reminders on this page of the proof I speak of...peace

quote:

Originally posted by jojab:
Troy99,

I get the sense that when you asked IP what age group he worked with and he replied 16 and up, you were thinking this wouldn't be something your 11 and 12's could pick up? I could be wrong though.........................
Well, what do you think? I know what I think. I know the spine angle works because I've tried this stuff myself. I have also looked at other clips.

Also, I'd highly recommend Steve Englishbey's DVDs.

Joe

Ok ...thanks.... I've looked at lots of clips..some fit what they describe (Glaus) others not so much. When I see things that don't quite fit, sometimes it is hard to get an explanation ..Example: I see most (not all) MLB hitters getting extension toward the pitcher (or between pitcher and baseline) after contact... I see it.. But I'm told it's not happening. (again see C. Jones as best example).

I do not dismiss what they are teaching... But.......I'm told that no one is teaching this on the MLB/minor league level, yet they are all doing it??? Is it subconscious? Did they all stumble on it? Trial and error? Is there anyone at a high level who knows he is doing this? I will keep asking... Eventually I'll become enlightened I suppose.

In the meantime the 11-12's are hitting pretty good. But always room to improve.

BTW ...I buy that if you make contact using this model you are probably going to hit the snot out of the ball. I know that's the "intent". Of course, you got to hit it first.

quote:

Originally posted by troy99:
...Ok ...thanks.... I've looked at lots of clips..some fit what they describe (Glaus) others not so much. When I see things that don't quite fit, sometimes it is hard to get an explanation ..Example: I see most (not all) MLB hitters getting extension toward the pitcher (or between pitcher and baseline) after contact... I see it.. But I'm told it's not happening....

Better check your notes. I didn't say it's not happening. You asked if I taught it.

No, I don't.

Get in your best stance, turn aggressively from your center, see what quick explosive rotation does to those hands.

quote:

Originally posted by Infopimp:

quote:

Originally posted by troy99:
...Ok ...thanks.... I've looked at lots of clips..some fit what they describe (Glaus) others not so much. When I see things that don't quite fit, sometimes it is hard to get an explanation ..Example: I see most (not all) MLB hitters getting extension toward the pitcher (or between pitcher and baseline) after contact... I see it.. But I'm told it's not happening....

Better check your notes. I didn't say it's not happening. You asked if I taught it.

No, I don't.

Get in your best stance, turn aggressively from your center, see what quick explosive rotation does to those hands.

OK
Is the Chipper clip a good example of what you teach? Should I have said the extension is not wanted? needed?.....

Talk is cheap...the proof's in the pudding !!!! peace

quote:

Originally posted by troy99:

quote:

Originally posted by Infopimp:

quote:

Originally posted by troy99:
...Ok ...thanks.... I've looked at lots of clips..some fit what they describe (Glaus) others not so much. When I see things that don't quite fit, sometimes it is hard to get an explanation ..Example: I see most (not all) MLB hitters getting extension toward the pitcher (or between pitcher and baseline) after contact... I see it.. But I'm told it's not happening....

Better check your notes. I didn't say it's not happening. You asked if I taught it.

No, I don't.

Get in your best stance, turn aggressively from your center, see what quick explosive rotation does to those hands.

OK
Is the Chipper clip a good example of what you teach? Should I have said the extension is not wanted? needed?.....

All those clips of mlb players at the coaching site represent what I and others teach.

quote:

Originally posted by Shepster:

Shepster...I don't think I am questioning the bend at the waist... Still trying to understand how this controls the swing plane...looks like a constant??? do we adjust this mid pitch?

troy99

Understand, go back up to Info's(sorryRS)three-for-one clip of Glaus and look at change of spine angles in posture of pitches other than mid pitch and you will see the plane is adjusted by the spine. peace bro Jason, Shep

quote:

Originally posted by Infopimp:
Get in your best stance, turn aggressively from your center, see what quick explosive rotation does to those hands.

Ok ..I have no problem here. I teach it. If the center is starting i assume that when we teach to lead with the hips you are ok with that?... The only real item I'm struggling with is using spine angle as the PRIMARY control of the swing plane.

Jason,

The bend in waist maintains the real power source and is sometimes referred to as the POWER V. The advanced golfers, hitters, pitchers, etc etc...All have the slight bend in waist and reason why abs lower back gluteous muscles Hams thighs but especially abs must be in tip top condition and advanced in development in regards to strength as well>max these muscles to attain greatest powerbase. IMHO

Peace,
Shep

In order to maintain this powerbase, the bend in the waist has to tilt spine up or down according to pitch in swingplane in order to keep strongest muscles in the body in control of swing. If you take the bend out of the equation,
you loose....simple as that. peace

quote:

Originally posted by troy99:
Shepster...I don't think I am questioning the bend at the waist... Still trying to understand how this controls the swing plane...looks like a constant??? do we adjust this mid pitch?

Troy99,

Go back to the Glaus clip with the three different pitch locations side-by-side. Download it and then play it back in something you can pause to go frame-by-frame (i.e, Quicktime). Notice his spine angles are identical before the pitches (first frame). Then forward it to the frame where the balls are colored orange. Notice how with the high pitch his spine is more vertical? Now go to the lowest pitch and notice how his spine angle is tilted the most?

If you stop and think about this, it is very logical. High level swings are driven from the core so it is logical that the adjustments from pitches high to low are also driven from the core. If they weren't, you'd get disconnected in a hurry (i.e., imagine what would happen if you were tilted down for a low pitch but it came in high so you stayed tilted down but then raised your hands to find the ball...conversely what would your swing look like with a little tilt and you get a low pitch but instead of adjusting your tilt you took your hands to the ball...again that is a disconnected swing).

Joe