Matching the plane?????

quote:

Originally posted by troy99:
IP and Bluedog...Please expain what you object to in the technique Diablo describes. His description on a the new thread is exactly what my kids instructor is teaching and what I now teach my 11-12's. What is the actual (not theory) difference. I understand that hitting thru the ball is a phrase you hate. But are you teaching to stay completely connected throughout the swing (see Pete Rose, as opposed to Chipper Jones video). Our BI calls this hook barrel and works hard to eliminate. I see most MLB hitters getting extension after contact (towards the pitcher). Do you??

I'd like to completeley understand the swing you advocate. Is it too complicated to explain in a couple of paragraphs? Or is it a secret that only $500 to Englishbey unlocks.

Heel drop does not start the swing. Never has never will.

Pimp- what starts a the opening of the hips... just curious on your theory.... or are you going to be like BlueDog and just say everything is false and not expand on any philosophy... guess you missed ESPN the other night when they were talking to Pujols about why he doesn't stride, just lifts heel and slams it back down... he said "the only reason i pick the heel up is to set it back down to get my lower body started... my top-half will catch up in time..." so what insight would you give A. Pujols to help him understand his swing better??

Diablo's Guru is clearly Epstein. Mike's got a lot to offer, but I don't see what Guru sees and I'm looking a the same video of Chipper. Diablo originally said: "he matches planes by hinging on back leg (slightly sitting on back leg) which changes plane of swing." By definition, this matching the plane of the swing to the plane of the pitch by sitting on the back leg must happen before contact to have any meaning. Please show us where Chipper is sitting on his back leg prior to contact?

Diamonddoll- RE-READ. Chipper begins to "hinge" his back leg to start to get a good body lean (rearward) to help his hands stay inside the baseball.. he will eventually sit on his back legbecause something has to catch him from falling on his backside. The slotting of the front elbow is the key to matching plane of swing to plane of pitch...

reread... there is a difference between when any rotational hitter "hinges" his back knee and when he is actually "sitting" on back leg (for support)because of getting a good body lean...

In my post above, I meant to say, "I don't see what Diablo sees..." I have no idea what Mike Epstein would say about Chipper's swing.

HERE IS MY CUT AND PASTE - YOU AND BLUE NEED TO STOP MIS-QUOTING PEOPLE, SOON YOU WON'T EVER BE ABLE TO PASS YOUR JOURNALISM FINALS

and if you focus on his back leg, notice it starts to hinge right about the time his hands get flat (in early approach phase) this allows him to get a slight body lean (so hands can work inside) and is also an equal and opposite effect of his hands and arms being catapulted forward in his swing by the torque developed in his body... and the best thing about your pic (besides being in slo-mo) is that the clip is stopped as Chipper has gone just beyond the power V and still has his good body lean and IS SITTING ON HIS BACK LEG... if you can see that clearly when the clip stops, something is wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by Infopimp:

quote:

Originally posted by troy99:
IP and Bluedog...Please expain what you object to in the technique Diablo describes. His description on a the new thread is exactly what my kids instructor is teaching and what I now teach my 11-12's. What is the actual (not theory) difference. I understand that hitting thru the ball is a phrase you hate. But are you teaching to stay completely connected throughout the swing (see Pete Rose, as opposed to Chipper Jones video). Our BI calls this hook barrel and works hard to eliminate. I see most MLB hitters getting extension after contact (towards the pitcher). Do you??

I'd like to completeley understand the swing you advocate. Is it too complicated to explain in a couple of paragraphs? Or is it a secret that only $500 to Englishbey unlocks.

Heel drop does not start the swing. Never has never will.

No argument from me, I'm using no stride not cueing from heel drop... It is a cue for the swing to start (semantics) for many (style not technique to me) Although It is easy to explain to young hitters as a cue to get the swing started.
Give me some yes's instead of the no's. What are you teaching? "Never has never will " is useless baloney. Explain the alternatives. What cue's if any do you use?

I don't need to re-read - I read and quoted your original post accurately. You said: "he matches planes by hinging on back leg (slightly sitting on back leg) which changes plane of swing." Are you now backing away from that statement? Please keep the focus on this statement. How does it relate to the clip of Chipper? Or are you now saying that sitting on the back leg has nothing to do with changing the plane of the swing? If so, you are not being consistent.

quote:

Originally posted by Diablo con Huevos:
Pimp- what starts a the opening of the hips... just curious on your theory.... or are you going to be like BlueDog and just say everything is false and not expand on any philosophy... guess you missed ESPN the other night when they were talking to Pujols about why he doesn't stride, just lifts heel and slams it back down... he said "the only reason i pick the heel up is to set it back down to get my lower body started... my top-half will catch up in time..." so what insight would you give A. Pujols to help him understand his swing better??

The pelvis. I stood up and slammed my heel into the floor 4 times and my hips never moved.

quote:

Originally posted by Diamondboy:
Diablo's Guru is clearly Epstein. Mike's got a lot to offer, but I don't see what Guru sees and I'm looking a the same video of Chipper. Diablo originally said: "he matches planes by hinging on back leg (slightly sitting on back leg) which changes plane of swing." By definition, this matching the plane of the swing to the plane of the pitch by sitting on the back leg must happen before contact to have any meaning. Please show us where Chipper is sitting on his back leg prior to contact?

Great point. Blue Dog brought it up earlier. Diablo can't answer it so he ignores it. A typical establishment move.

Says the leg hinges to match the plane. I guess he means the plane of the exiting ball.

[/QUOTE]

I stood up and slammed my heel into the floor 4 times and my hips never moved.[/QUOTE]

Means nothing. Why not something that helps me understand. I realize you have "passed me by". ... I can rotate my hips without swinging. means nothing.

Did you only read the part you quoted?

quote:

Originally posted by Infopimp:
Great point. Blue Dog brought it up earlier. Diablo can't answer it so he ignores it. A typical establishment move.

Baloney again. I asked you 3 questions a page back that you have ignored.... You must be getting "established"...

quote:

Originally posted by Infopimp:
Did you only read the part you quoted?

"The Pelvis".. oh now I understand
It's all clear to me now. I never would have considered that the hips were important

Either you don't like my answer or you don't understand it.

Doesn't mean I didn't answer your questions.

quote:

Originally posted by Infopimp:
Either you don't like my answer or you don't understand it.

Doesn't mean I didn't answer your questions.

Or you did not answer... #1 Should we be teaching extension after contact (as I see with Chipperand most clips I watch (not all)) or are you advocating staying connnected after contact?? (or does it matter?)

No. No.

quote:

Originally posted by Infopimp:
No. No.

Thanks I'm learning so much from you today... (yes I know it's free)

quote:

Originally posted by Infopimp:
Either you don't like my answer or you don't understand it.

Doesn't mean I didn't answer your questions.

#2 ...Swing plane...when Im talking about swing plane matching the pitch...I am talking about the pitch in general (not each individual pitch). The plane should be constant assuming you are not fooled? Slightly upward at contact?

quote:

I am talking about the pitch in general (not each individual pitch).

Troy, what the heck is a pitch in general?.....You complain about Info not answering your questions....He is answering your questions, but you don't understand what he is saying....Your mind is closed with Epstein theory.....Alot of flaws in what he teaches.....

Troy, can you explain the plane of a 12 to 6 curveball?.....And, a fastball riding away from a hitter?....

What do these planes look like?......

"and posture IS dictated by the BATTER.. he matches planes by hinging on back leg (slightly sitting on back leg) which changes plane of swing,...."

"The slotting of the front elbow is the key to matching plane of swing to plane of pitch..."


Diablo, so you are now saying sitting on the back leg does not set swing plane?......Slotting the front elbow does?...

Is this because the video proved you to be wrong?.....It also proved you wrong on your front elbow slotting comments...What will you say sets swing plane next?......

They hate that video, Blue Dog.

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:

quote:

I am talking about the pitch in general (not each individual pitch).

Troy, what the heck is a pitch in general?.....You complain about Info not answering your questions....He is answering your questions, but you don't understand what he is saying....Your mind is closed with Epstein theory.....Alot of flaws in what he teaches.....

First, my mind is completely open....I'd never heard of rotational hitting until IP referred me to Mankin many years ago. all I'm doing is asking questions....I really want to know what you think. As far as swing plane let me see if I can make it clearer. When I say "pitch in general" I am talking about the general downward plane between the pitchers hand and the catchers glove. I don't think anyone here thinks you should try to match the 12-6 drop of a cb, and I think you know that. The only purpose of that kind post is to try to make others feel afraid to converse with you. It won't work with me because I know I don't know it all.

I am very interested in what IP has said in the past... i'd like to understand your appraoch also... Please educate me.... I've found very little of use in this thread from either of you.... Usually I find some good info that makes me question my approach...nothing today, except what you don't like ...thats not helpful to me... but i'll keep reading in case you slip and offer usable info.

What would be nice from both of you (IP and BD) is a bunch of sentences that start with "the hitter should" . Maybe not as amusing as ripping what others post, but it might help me help my boys hit better which is why I'm here. Thanks in advance

Troy, you mustn't talk in general terms when discussing hitting.....

The fact is, pitches do not have swing planes....You just can't say some do and some don't......

And, MLB hitters do not sit on their back leg at ball contact.....Weathervaning doesn't exist in the MLB swing and neither does counter-rotation....

MLB hitters swing at a point in space where they think the bat will collide with the ball.....They let their posture dictate the swing plane.....They build batspeed early in the forward swing and release everything at ball contact like an explosion.....What's leftover is swing momentum, not batspeed.....

Instead of sitting on the back leg (collapsing the backside), MLB hitters shift their weight forward to produce momentum.....The front leg becomes the axis of rotation....

They do not slot their elbows......They connect the hands and arms to the shoulders and rotate to the ball.....Not through the ball, but to the ball.....

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:

MLB hitters swing at a point in space where they think the bat will collide with the ball.....They let their posture dictate the swing plane.....They build batspeed early in the forward swing and release everything at ball contact like an explosion.....What's leftover is swing momentum, not batspeed.....

Instead of sitting on the back leg (collapsing the backside), MLB hitters shift their weight forward to produce momentum.....The front leg becomes the axis of rotation...

Interesting....First question.... When I put a drag line (Rightview Pro) thru A-Rod's head at toe touch, how does he shift his weight from back to front with absolutely no head movement.? When I watch and watch and watch, what I see is 50/50 wgt dist at toe touch thru contact. What am I not seeing? ..... How much weight are we moving forward??

I am serious about the questions and I have many more. Thanks for your time.

Troy, I'm beginning to wonder if you're serious......

The weight shift has already happened when the front foot plants.....

Can you not see a weight shift in this clip?



http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/thomas_frank.mpeg

And, no torque position or counter-rotation....

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
Troy, I'm beginning to wonder if you're serious......

The weight shift has already happened when the front foot plants.....

okay??? so what is the approx dist. after foot plant.... ???

that is good BlueDog... now we are getting somwhere... i think we are begining to meet in thoughts... first off, if i ever said that all players SIT ON BACK LEG AT POINT OF CONTACT, i mis-typed... what i said everywhere i went back to look, was that in the approach phase of swing, once palms get flat, back knee is already "hinging" (that is just flexion in the leg) - hinging is not necessarily only happening while player is on his back leg... maybe that is where i am being confusing...

now, you said that POSTURE dictates swing plane..HOW? There has to be something all players do that allow them to get there posture to a position to be successful in their swing.. what is it that they are doing.. and surly we agree it can not be identical in all of that players swings... because the ball comes through zone at different locations for each pitch. So players must be able to make some sort of on-the-fly adjustment... what part of their body makes the adjustment ( i know posture), but what in the players swing changes his posture... i mean what changes the angle or degree to which they get their body posture in to? in other words (if i am being confusing) what does a player do with what part of his body to get the angle he wants for his swing plane?

and also if elbows are never slotted for pitch plane (trajectory ball is coming to batter).. then the elbows of each individual player is in the same spot for each pitch - whether it is up and in or low and away??... if lead elbow doesn't slot for pitches it should never have to move from swing to swing - why would it right. you are saying there is no relationship between lead elbow and swing plane, right?

help me here dog.

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
Can you not see a weight shift in this clip?



http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/thomas_frank.mpeg

And, no torque position or counter-rotation....

before toe-touch I see weight shift...never have thought otherwise.

Counter-rotation has never been a description i have used. Although our BI does recommend a small "load" it is in the hips only. ...I think I see it in many MLB clips.... I'm ducking waiting for response

You say the back knee hinges or flexes as if it is a part of the mechanics of a high level swing.

It is not. The legs do little more than provide a stable base from which the pelvis can work.

Whatever the leg does is a result of the hips doing what they do.

quote:

...now, you said that POSTURE dictates swing plane..HOW? There has to be something all players do that allow them to get there posture to a position to be successful in their swing.. what is it that they are doing.. and surly we agree it can not be identical in all of that players swings... because the ball comes through zone at different locations for each pitch. So players must be able to make some sort of on-the-fly adjustment... what part of their body makes the adjustment ( i know posture), but what in the players swing changes his posture... i mean what changes the angle or degree to which they get their body posture in to? in other words (if i am being confusing) what does a player do with what part of his body to get the angle he wants for his swing plane?

You've got a lot to unlearn Diablo.

The posture changes by the amount of bend at the waist for the most part.

quote:

...and also if elbows are never slotted for pitch plane (trajectory ball is coming to batter).. then the elbows of each individual player is in the same spot for each pitch - whether it is up and in or low and away??... if lead elbow doesn't slot for pitches it should never have to move from swing to swing - why would it right. you are saying there is no relationship between lead elbow and swing plane, right?

help me here dog.

The lead upper arm is perpendicular to the spine, which is tilted over the plate. Unless last minute adjustments are necessary (fooled by pitch speed or location)it will remain in that position, relative to the upper body on all pitch locations.

It can remain in the same position due to posture adjustments. More bend. Less bend. Depending on pitch location.

Any questions?

Perpendicular it is! That is incredible video illustration. GREAT stuff. Keep it coming.

So....lets start with simple. I teach my boys a no-stride swing. They are taught to be 50/50. They load (very minor looking move) the hips, as they see the ball in pitchers hand. This move results in the front foot coming up slightly off the heel. At the time of commitment the hips lead (explosively) the shoulders (hands). The back elbow stays close to the body unless they are fooled. (teach them it is like a punch). Work hard to keep the arms from casting out. This is the most common repeated flaw.

Now I know you'll hate this but we also teach them to hit thru the ball (3 balls for the young ones). I understand why you don't like this....Question... for less than MLB caliber hitters...do you see no value in "staying thru the zone" a little to compensate for slightly poor timing?

What happens in your model if we are going to that specific point in space but your timing is off just a little?


Am i ruining these guys?

Info, do you think Diablo is capable of unlearning?......

Kind of disproves weathervaning, eh?

So....we've killed counter-rotation. We've killed leg hinging. We've killed weathervaning. We've killed heel drop starting the swing. We've killed torque.

What good is he?

He's real good at the mental side of hitting.