Matching the plane?????

quote:

Originally posted by jojab:

Troy99,

Go back to the Glaus clip. Download it and then play it back in something you can pause to go frame-by-frame (i.e, Quicktime). Notice his spine angles are identical before the pitches (first frame). Then forward it to the frame where the balls are colored orange. Notice how with the high pitch his spine is more vertical? Now go to the lowest pitch and notice how his spine angle is tilted the most?

If you stop and think about this, it is very logical. High level swings are driven from the core so it is logical that the adjustments from pitches high to low are also driven from the core. If they weren't, you'd get disconnected in a hurry (i.e., imagine what would happen if you were tilted down for a low pitch but it came in high so you stayed tilted down but then raised your hands to find the ball...conversely what would your swing look like with a little tilt and you get a low pitch but instead of adjusting your tilt you took your hands to the ball...again that is a disconnected swing).

Joe

Ok ...thanks will absorb this awhile. If you get a minute answer questions above about how MLB hitters got here. Interested in if they realize what they are doing (with regard to spine angle) in your opinion. Is this all just a by-product of great reflexes etc.

Joe,

That was excellent and I totally agree, exactly.

A good example of a hitter becoming disconnected would be if swing has started even though slider is moving away from hitter(RHP to RHH). Hitter will sometimes reach for pitch and spine collapses and just wave at ball in desperation in attempt to not miss ball completely. Swing becomes all arms. Saw this happen several times with even big league hitters the past couple spring training games I have been fortunate enough to attend in the past few days. Happens at every level. Hitter has got to stay in hitting zone in the case of breaking pitches moving away. Posture in spine angle changes and is dictated after the recognition of pitch but most times with it because pitch is moving too, unless it is a dead straight fastball, which will get mashed every time by advanced hitter. peace, Shep

quote:

Originally posted by troy99:

Ok ...thanks will absorb this awhile. If you get a minute answer questions above about how MLB hitters got here. Interested in if they realize what they are doing (with regard to spine angle) in your opinion. Is this all just a by-product of great reflexes etc.

Here is a story that I picked up from another site (I don't recall who posted it):

"Always, when this conversation arises, I remember a story Don Slaught told me about talking w/ Barry Bonds about his swing. Bonds said he "was hitting all right, but didn't think he was swinging down sharply enough to contact." Slaught told him that in fact, like all MLB hitters, he swung UP to contact. Bonds vehemently denied the possibility of this. Slaught used RVP {Right View Pro} to convince Bonds, and later heard him walk up to ARod at the All Star Game batting practice and say, "Alex, you know you don't swing down to the ball, right?"

There have been other stories about how MLB players sometimes describe their swings but then when you try to match it up against what they actually do on video it is different.

My personal opinion on this is that some learned to be "efficient" through trial and error. Others are students of the game and although they may not use the same cues and words that you see written here, they are very well aware of what they are doing. Same goes for coaches. On the site I mentioned before (baseball-fever.com) there is a professional player (a young guy around 25) who works with Steve Englishbey on this same stuff.

If you know of Robert Stock (Google him if you don't), he also works with his dad on this same stuff so there are high level players/prospects doing this stuff. With the internet being what it is and the availability of high speed videos to look at for regular guys like us, I think you'll see more of it in the future.

The great thing about it is that you are your son's best chance of reaching his potential. As you said, his current hitting coach is off doing other things. No one cares about your son’s success more than you and no one has his attention and access to him the way you do. Knowing this stuff and understanding what high level hitters do is going to give your son a huge jump start over other kids that he’ll compete with. Enjoy the journey.

Joe

quote:

Originally posted by jojab:
There have been other stories about how MLB players sometimes describe their swings but then when you try to match it up against what they actually do on video it is different.

Joe

Ok ,,, agree with this... So the next question.? Is this explosive (all or nothing?) swing the best thing to teach 11-16 kids who will probably never sniff the minor leagues. Do MLB hitters hit this way because they can...while the rest would maximize results another way?

Jason,

Here's my take on your statements/questions in brief one-liner, here ya go>

"may as well start teaching kid the right way early on in development as player".


This will prevent kids from having to go back and learn the mechanics after they reach the higher levels and learn they are not able to compete with those who have learned the correct mechanics. peace

quote:

Originally posted by troy99:

Ok ,,, agree with this... So the next question.? Is this explosive (all or nothing?) swing the best thing to teach 11-16 kids who will probably never sniff the minor leagues. Do MLB hitters hit this way because they can...while the rest would maximize results another way?

From a practical perspective - yes, this stuff does work on kids of all levels. I coach various teams (from travel to rec. ball). Since this is the rec. ball season, I was working with my new rec. team (an 11 and 12 year old league) on this and knowing that I will have a limited about of exposure to them I wanted to get the basics down with them as quickly as possible (season starts next week).

The first practice I just let them hit away while I put a defense in the field and did front toss to them from behind an L-screen from about 20 feet away. I wanted to see what I had to work with. Pretty typical stuff - straight posture, hands to the ball type hitters - every single one of them.

The second practice I talked to them about tilting over the plate and sticking their butts out. I brought stills of various MLB hitters in that position. I explained why standing up straight and dropping the hands to the ball is a poor approach, etc. I demonstrated the two types of swings - what they looked like versus what high level hitters looked like. I also told them I was kicking up the speed of the pitches to get them more efficient in anticipation in facing live kid pitching.

I had each of them hit, while making minor adjustments/suggestions to each of them. Even with me zipping them in there at a greater rate of speed, all but one kid improved -- some quite a bit. We saw a far greater number of line drives and well hit balls over the previous practice. The last kid has zero baseball experience and is lunging in a very severe way so the faster pitching is eating him up (I'll have to work with him a bit separately).

The kids "looked" better, too. It is my belief that although you need to have the correct posture, stay connected and rotate right to have a high level swing, when given a short amount of time and access to the kids, start with posture. Teach them how to adjust to the height of the pitch with their tilts. You get quite a bang for your buck this way.

Joe

Joe,

You are a very valuable asset to this site sir. Please keep coming back because many here need your input because it is "all" 100 percent accurate without a doubt. Would highly recommend your teachings to anybody and everybody I know and would even go as far as to say, if you want success with baseball for your kids, move to where Joe lives in Arizona !!!!! Joe fo sho !!!!

Anyone who calls themselves a Pimp of anything you have to question, so i will... i understand you are on the jock of Englishbey , who i understood was a 1st round pick (what was it, 1972? When did he finally make it to the Major Leagues???) He was a position player, no? What was the report on him for not having not only a career, but also not even one day in the bigs? Oh yeah, he couldn't hit at that level... you should look over scouting reports before swallowing.

Who does he work with that is on the MLB level? You keep talking about Glaus and Chipper who are both clients of ofthe "drop teh heel" guy as was Big mac... why are you using other instructore clients.. use Steve's.

Pimp, you killed counter-rotation? then why with Epstein's client, Glaus, when it starts, you can see just aprt of the digit in the tens place on jersey.. yet once he starts swing, you can see part of digit in ones place? how could that be happening? he is not rotating is he? i mean what else would cause you to see more across the back?

Killed "hinge" in back leg? Does Glaus' back knee never hinge? ever? looks like it does from the get-go on clip....

Killed torque? then why when you look at Glaus' clip, when his belt buckle comes into view, his bat can still be seen behind neck? i mean if his lower body is opened, shouldn't everything else be right there with it - if not, that separation is called torque...

and when you keep talking about the pelvis and the legs are just there.. well what about the psoa major? tensor fascia? sartorious? rectus femorus?, pectineus? those are all large muscles that act on the pelvis - oddly enough they are all located between hip and knee (that is the leg area).

Jojab....... Thanks... good info

quote:

Originally posted by Diablo con Huevos:
Anyone who calls themselves a Pimp of anything you have to question, so i will... i understand you are on the jock of Englishbey , who i understood was a 1st round pick (what was it, 1972? When did he finally make it to the Major Leagues???) He was a position player, no? What was the report on him for not having not only a career, but also not even one day in the bigs? Oh yeah, he couldn't hit at that level... you should look over scouting reports before swallowing.

How many big league at bats did Charlie Lau Jr. have? Think A-Rod cares?

quote:

Pimp, you killed counter-rotation? then why with Epstein's client, Glaus, when it starts, you can see just aprt of the digit in the tens place on jersey.. yet once he starts swing, you can see part of digit in ones place? how could that be happening? he is not rotating is he? i mean what else would cause you to see more across the back?

Would be nice to argue with an educated person. Look up the definition of counter rotation. Ever heard of scap load?

quote:

Killed "hinge" in back leg? Does Glaus' back knee never hinge? ever? looks like it does from the get-go on clip....

Legs are reacting to the hips. Hinge was dead on arrival. Killed completely. Never existed.

quote:

Killed torque? then why when you look at Glaus' clip, when his belt buckle comes into view, his bat can still be seen behind neck? i mean if his lower body is opened, shouldn't everything else be right there with it - if not, that separation is called torque...

No, separation is not torque. Forces moving in opposite directions is torque. I see one force. Nothing working the other direction.

You guys must hate video.

Diablo.... I'm listening ...I am very well versed in what you are saying. Have had much success with a very similar approach.

Love to hear the other ideas. Let them fly... I find it all fascinating.

Great the last few days. Thanks

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Diablo con Huevos:
i understand you are on the jock of Englishbey , who i understood was a 1st round pick (what was it, 1972? When did he finally make it to the Major Leagues???) He was a position player, no? What was the report on him for not having not only a career, but also not even one day in the bigs? Oh yeah, he couldn't hit at that level... you should look over scouting reports before swallowing.
[QUOTE]

By Steve Englishbey's own account, it was his failure to succeed at a high level that drove him to find out why he didn't.

Is every great coach/manager someone who achieved success at the highest level of his sport?

Joe

Diablo:

It's really ashame you're getting defensive and hysterical. This thread was taking a very educational turn. Comments about jockstraps and the like are pretty childish.

You've asked a series of questions, but you've never answered the one I posed about where you see sitting on the back leg prior to contact in the Chipper video. And since you brought it up, where do you see it in the Glauss video? I'm not talking about a hinge which is something different - I'm talking about "sitting" which is what you told us determines the swing plane.

It is a very difficult thing to have your belief system challenged. But to respond by lashing out insures that, instead of continuing to learn, you will simply dig your heels in regardless of what the video shows you. Believe me, this is not the best method for helping your kids to improve. No one has all the answers and many of us are continually searching. That's why some of the posters here are asking so many questions instead of pretending they have all the answers.

jojab, excellent posts.... lots of great information. Certainly hope your able to stick around and contribute further to these boards.

Standard operating procedure.

When there is no counter for the message, shoot the messenger.

Good evening fellas, did you read in the GEN. ITEMS forum under "Frustrated with my swing" thread that we are combative souls that could possibly start WWIII if sought for advice? Can't imagine who that person could possibly be talking about because we are all 's down here...Wouldn't you fellas agree?

Let's get that bunting C-r-a-p out-a-here and start talking about some hitting

Don't want to hear anything about that moving runners over stuff either-That's Japanese baseball...we live in USA!

Put that bunting C-r-a-p up in the Coaches section JK Kevin

Earlier it was said [by Mr. "Eggs " ] that:

" ....I understand you are on the jock of Englishbey."

Uh , just for the record I'd like to point out that this is an incorrect statement.

I never did ---as a baseball player[played for 6 yrs up to AAA for the Astros org.] or football player [quarterback ---approx. 25 scholarship offers]
,nor do I now as a teacher of hitting/throwing , or as an exercise trainer--- wear a jock.

Just wanted to correct the record.

steve

quote:

Legs are reacting to the hips

Ofher, Let me get this straight....

You are saying then that lead leg extension in the weight shift MLB swings is all a result of the middle working.


You believe then that the hip turn generated 2-3/100 before contact that far around the spinal axis can still be powered effectively and totally by middle action.

You believe that lead leg force applied to the ground does not push the lead hip back toward the catcher at this point in the swing and have an effect on the speed of the unhinging of the wrist / bat angle

You believe there is no torque in MLB swings.

You believe plane transition and entering the momentum path of the shoulder turn from above the path serves no physical purpose

You believe that overlapping load and unload through working the middle with a slight weight shift can give the same power as full momentum transfer and head movement forward ...head over belly button to foot plant and lead leg extension.

I read what you say over and over and I believe this is what you have said. I just want to know if this is what you truely believe

quote:

Originally posted by steve englishbey:
Earlier it was said [by Mr. "Eggs " ] that:

" ....I understand you are on the jock of Englishbey."

Uh , just for the record I'd like to point out that this is an incorrect statement.

I never did ---as a baseball player[played for 6 yrs up to AAA for the Astros org.] or football player [quarterback ---approx. 25 scholarship offers]
,nor do I now as a teacher of hitting/throwing , or as an exercise trainer--- wear a jock.

Just wanted to correct the record.

steve

Did you at least wear a CUP?

Have fun with this one!
I think Puljos is one of the best high ball hitters I have seen.

Pimp... i'm not sure why you ignore certain questions, but keep responding to the same one... is that all your manual in front of you has in it...

i asked why you are using clips to "kill" certain philosophies of players at the MLB level that go to the instructor that teaches them.. make no sense.... also this instructor is regarded very highly and his philosophy is taught at Cal St Fullerton, Rice, South Carolina, Nebraska, Arizona (softball)... amongst other places.... surly you can't tell me those coaches are idiots... i keep seeing them have successful offensive seasons, and players drafted...

and you never commented on Pujols' comments on ESPN i quoted earlier in week - when asked why he doesn't stride and he said that he just lifts his heel up to slam it back down to get everything going - said his top half would eventually catch up to make contact with ball... (do a search on espn.com to find). is Pujols ignorant as well as those caoches mentioned earlier?

i asked you, when you and Dog said legs are just a foundation for support of pelvis, about the major muscles that act on the pelvis... i gave you a specific list of them, and no response on that... oddly enough they all were attached at pelvis and ran to knee (the LEG) area... how can the legs play zero part in the swing with these muscles located in leg?? you act like pelvis does all the work... yet those major muscles are in the leg... heck yeah pelvis and abdominal strength are important, but legs mean nothing?

yes, "counter" means to to go in the opposite way... and "rotate" means to move around a center or axis....

so we understand what that means, to counter rotate... so you are saying Glaus is not slightly rotating counter (back, or down and in) to where he he will eventually rotate to (forward, slightly up and away) if that is not happening, then why can we see that digit in the ones place on his jersey only after he begins his swing movement?

i'm just asking about what i am seeing...

i am begining to think that we think alike on the majority of swing mechanics... possibly are being said in different ways... at least we agree that torso will rotate and the arms/hands are just along for the ride....

quote:

i am begining to think that we think alike on the majority of swing mechanics

No we don't........No torque, no counter-rotation and no concentration on the hips.....Our hitting beliefs are definitely different....Yep, no doubt about it......

What I see in Puljos clip is rotation tranferring weight to front side with front leg acting as both suspension and axis of rotation. He appears to use front toe to heel as trigger in thrusting his pelvic area into rotation. Also appears to be completely off his back side while bat is still pointing towards catcher.

quote:

Originally posted by NYdad:
What I see in Puljos clip is rotation tranferring weight to front side with front leg acting as both suspension and axis of rotation. He appears to use front toe to heel as trigger in thrusting his pelvic area into rotation. Also appears to be completely off his back side while bat is still pointing towards catcher.

Yet he still looks balanced

Diablo... I think it is well established that many (if not most) hitters say they do one thing but when you look at the film ????? Since the advent of high-speed clips they have not studied them. (In Pujols case, why should he?)
I'm not taking sides here, but saying player X says he does "whatever" is a very poor agrument to me.. They are wrong repeatedly.

so dog, that is all you have to say... still no comments on any of my questions???
just nope, nope, nada...

Also see him adjust his spine angle up during rotation in adjusting to the pitch which appears across the letters.

Can certainly see the importance of the front leg whereas the back appears to go along for the ride and act more as landing gear.

quote:

Originally posted by NYdad:
Also see him adjust his spine angle up during rotation in adjusting to the pitch which appears across the letters.

Can certainly see the importance of the front leg whereas the back appears to go along for the ride and act more as landing gear.

NYDad

The interesting thing I see in above clip of Puljos is the pitch is up, near his letters. I have seen other clips when the pitch is low and Puljos back foot does not come this high off the ground and on a pitch at the knees it does not come off the ground at all. The spine lean/ AKA shoulder dip, is not as much in this clip as with a lower pitch. I believe that the centrifugal force of his rotation is the cause of the rear foot coming up for a high pitch in the body's effort to not spin off toward third base, centripetal force working against the rotation to keep a central axis of rotation. A greater spine lean/AKA Shoulder Dip on a lower pitch is the bodies centripetal force counter balancing the centrifugal force of the rotation and the batters weight does not come forward but is able to stay centered better due to the counter balance. Action v reaction. Interesting study of how our body reactions to the laws of physics. The clips of Glauss with three pitch locations shows a little more spine lean/shoulder dip as the pitch gets lower and closer to him. Can't tell in the clips but my guess is the pitches in closer are struck a little further out front each time.

When the batter has to swing at a high pitch they are predisposed to more weight coming off the back leg in reaction to the rotational force. The spine lean/shoulder dip, call it what you will are the method of getting on plane with the pitch. I was very surprised to see how much Clemente came off his back leg in the clip of him and would love to see more at bats of his to see how often this occurred. The pitch he hit appeared to be about waste high.

Clemente did that all the time, it was one of the unique things about him.

Ofher again...

quote:
Legs are reacting to the hips


Ofher, Let me get this straight....

You are saying then that lead leg extension in the weight shift MLB swings is all a result of the middle working.


You believe then that the hip turn generated 2-3/100 before contact that far around the spinal axis can still be powered effectively and totally by middle action.

You believe that lead leg force applied to the ground does not push the lead hip back toward the catcher at this point in the swing and have an effect on the speed of the unhinging of the wrist / bat angle

You believe there is no torque in MLB swings.

You believe plane transition and entering the momentum path of the shoulder turn from above the path serves no physical purpose

You believe that overlapping load and unload through working the middle with a slight weight shift can give the same power as full momentum transfer and head movement forward ...head over belly button to foot plant and lead leg extension.

I read what you say over and over and I believe this is what you have said. I just want to know if this is what you truely believe

HCD, would say how the back foot reacts is determined by spine angle during rotation which is relative to lean.

IP, BD, Jojab etc.. Is there an important difference in teaching "spinal tilt" vs. shoulder tilt? I'm with HCD above.. to my eye they are the same. ????

NYD:

Yes based upon observation and experiment I find that the more upright my spine and less shoulder tilt the more my weight wants to come forward. My body must fight this in order to remain on a central pint of rotation. Similar to a figure skater when they do a jump rotation/turn, their momentum forward predisposes them to travel/drift in the air. when the skater spins they are more likely to travel or drift when their arms are out away from the body, the closer the hands the faster the rotation and less travel/drift is seen. Law of conservation of angular momentum. We all must obey the law or suffer the consequences. Batters weight comes forward or spins off the pitch same law applies.

I hate my phat phingers at times,

FYI: I give the parents the $75.00 per hour explination, the kids enjoy the 5 cent version more and have more fun.

quote:

Originally posted by troy99:
IP, BD, Jojab etc.. Is there an important difference in teaching "spinal tilt" vs. shoulder tilt? I'm with HCD above.. to my eye they are the same. ????

The way he is saying it, it is the same. As long as the shoulders remain perpendicular to the spine it is just another way of saying the same thing. It is possible, however, for the shoulders to move up and down on angles other than perpendicular to the spine (the spine becomes curved or contorted if you do this) and that is not what you’d want.

Think about this though. When explaining to a kid how to adjust to the location of the pitch isn’t it easier to just tell him to keep the same swing but to simply tilt more for lower pitches and less for higher pitches while staying connected? Most seem to get it when I explain it this way, show them clips of high-level hitters and demonstrate my own swing in slow motion for them.

Joe

quote:

Originally posted by steve englishbey:
I never did ---as a baseball player[played for 6 yrs up to AAA for the Astros org.] or football player [quarterback ---approx. 25 scholarship offers]
,nor do I now as a teacher of hitting/throwing , or as an exercise trainer--- wear a jock.

Just wanted to correct the record.

steve

Sure does explain a lot.

Jason

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:

quote:

i am begining to think that we think alike on the majority of swing mechanics

No we don't........No torque, no counter-rotation and no concentration on the hips.....Our hitting beliefs are definitely different....Yep, no doubt about it......

The more I learn, the more I think that the differences are minor. But minor changes can make a big difference... so still learning.

Spine angle was not something I thought much about, but after a lot of video checking I see that my guys are doing this (adjusting spine tilt). I always saw this adjustment as shoulder tilt. To use an IP phrase, maybe this isn't "a teach".??? Or we just got lucky and they learned it on their own like the MLB players.

quote:

Originally posted by troy99:

The more I learn, the more I think that the differences are minor. But minor changes can make a big difference... so still learning.

Spine angle was not something I thought much about, but after a lot of video checking I see that my guys are doing this (adjusting spine tilt). I always saw this adjustment as shoulder tilt. To use an IP phrase, maybe this isn't "a teach".??? Or we just got lucky and they learned it on their own like the MLB players.

Joe

The more you learn about posture, connection and rotation (PCR), the more you will see that they are interrelated. You can't have one without the other. For example, if your kids are staying connected they have to have the correct posture (and it sounds like that is what happened). There are different ways to teach this stuff and different starting points.

Also, the more you learn about this the more you'll realize that this is just about becoming more "efficient" -- and that will ultimately satisfy your burning question as to just how it is that high-level hitters figured this out without having someone "teach" it to them (they had to otherwise they would have been chewed up in the food-chain). Hence, you'll come full-circle and realize that all you are really doing is giving your kids a tremendous jump-start by teaching it the right way from the start.

Joe

quote:

Originally posted by jojab:

The more you learn about posture, connection and rotation (PCR), the more you will see that they are interrelated. You can't have one without the other. For example, if your kids are staying connected they have to have the correct posture (and it sounds like that is what happened).
Joe

OK...agree..... Thanks again

Staying connected is a major "teach" ...I think most (in this current discussion anyway) agree.

This brings to mind a question AGAIN. IP has brushed this aside in the past as unimportant.. our BI thinks otherwise. After contact..is there any value in getting "good extension". Or is this working against what you are teaching? The Rose clip is an example of none...but I see alot of MLB that do. Is this just "style"???

Hope I'm not interrupting or anything...What's up fellas?

LHH/Team USA Utley demonstrated the bend in waist in body posture matching plane of pitch perfectly in the ball he mashed as in deep fly-out to center field. Could see spine adjusting in bodyposture plainly with naked eyes...Outstanding !!!! You can see tilt clearly in regular fast speed clip, it is so obvious. Looks alot like Adam D.-LHH/Reds clip posted here a few days ago. Outstanding and look for Utley to be successful on long-term basis this season. Looks like a everyday player and pure-hitter to me, fo sho bros!

peace,
Shep

Troy, I posted similar question regarding finish i.e. extension vs circular path and would like to hear jojab's take on it as well.
I tend to think it is matter of preference since ya see both used by the pro's but not sure.