Men Playing Women's Sports

I imagine this will end up in the courts with SCOTUS ruling against it. That, or women sports will be ruined in less than 5 years.

Ridiculous!

SMH - wrong just wrong on so many levels.....

It does happen the other way around on occasion. True story of a girl that wrestled when I was in school. Nobody wanted to wrestle her weight class not because she was a girl, but because she was a beast. Her dad was a former D1 college wrestler from Jersey. I use to laugh at the light weight guys trying to dodge her weight class knowing full well I didn't want no parts of it 

There is basically no way to separate this topic from politics.  The party of “equality” is eating its own tail.  This is the natural progression of identity politics trailing off into absurdity.  

This is already playing out in some sports, “women’s” cycling being one.

@ReluctantO'sFan posted:

SMH - wrong just wrong on so many levels.....

It does happen the other way around on occasion. True story of a girl that wrestled when I was in school. Nobody wanted to wrestle her weight class not because she was a girl, but because she was a beast. Her dad was a former D1 college wrestler from Jersey. I use to laugh at the light weight guys trying to dodge her weight class knowing full well I didn't want no parts of it 

I'm completely fine with girls playing boys sports. There are a few girls in our county playing varsity this year. Boys at the HS level and beyond are naturally bigger, faster, stronger.

A girl I grew up with (smokin' hot) was always tomboyish. She took up wrestling in HS and made it to the state final 4. She would kick my ass before she knew how to wrestle, adding technique made her pretty tough to beat.

What about more women will turn to PED's to increase their testosterone levels and even the playing field?   Gonna be interesting to see the lawsuits where they try punishing women for using PEDs but allow men to play women's sports.   

It is in the courts in CT already. 

https://www.nbcconnecticut.com...te-title-ix/2278511/

A quick google search brings up a whole list of articles.

I think that this opens the door for a lot of potential abuse.  There will be organizations like the IOC that hage guidelines that stipulate certain testosterone levels for X months before competition.  That ignores the physiological differences in muscle and bone structure earlier in life.

A tennis example, the average speed for a men's serve is 184 kph (114 MPH) The women's  average is 158 kph (98 MPH).   That is a 15% drop in speed.   

At the Rio Olympics - the women's gold medalist ran 10.71 in the 100m.   The men's last place finisher ran 10.08.  A half second in the 100M is an eternity. 

The US women's national soccer team lost to a club u15 boys team.  Granted it was only a friendly - but 5-2 is a rout in soccer.

https://www.cbssports.com/socc...team-in-a-scrimmage/

Unfortunately - the end result will be the very best women will be able to compete - but they will at best be near the average of the best men.  This will trickle down to lower levels and what will likely will happen... There will not be enough women born athletes competing - to have a separate women's division - those that have the talent may become disheartened and drop out before reaching their potential or the truly gifted women born athlete will develop to be on par as those of the truly gifted men.

The losers will be the good but not great women athletes that lose out on the opportunities sports offer.

I don't see how this does not conflict directly with Title 9.  I do not have girls but I think it is absurd that this would be allowed.  I do have granddaughters that if this continues will not be able to compete.  I had a conversation yesterday with some baseball players and asked if they would consider identifying as a woman to get a scholarship and play softball.  Almost every one of them said absolutely.  That is sad that this is where we are headed.

@PitchingFan posted:

I know this will go off the tracks politically real fast but let's try to give it a chance.  How do you think Biden's Executive Order that requires athletes born male who say they identify as women to play will affect women's sports?

I wonder if average boys baseball, basketball, soccer, track and so on players will be willing to identify as a woman to get a scholarship and compete in college.  I think there will be some who will push this.  I can see the guy who would be a good D2 player in baseball switching over to fastpitch softball and playing P5 softball.  I may be surprised but I think it will happen.

I also think even in high school if the seasons are different that some will play baseball in the spring and softball in the fall as some states do.

Let's go.  Open the flood gates.  I think this post will last 4 days.

You want no part of a riseball from 39 feet.

You see, there is no Title 9 issue because all you have to do is say you “identify as a woman” and you are now a woman and thus entitled to the same Title 9 slots.  Anyone who does not play along with the delusion, or outright con in some cases, is transphobic and full of hate and must be cancelled.

It will be interesting to see what women's rights group do about this.  So far they have been relatively quiet but things may change now that the election is past.  That said, I don't see how women's sports survive when the fundamental reason for their existence is removed.

On a related note, perhaps they will now fix the injustice of requiring 18 year old males to register for the draft while specifically not requiring women to do so.  This chart was taken from the Selective Service website and shows registration requirements for transgender people:

what about auto insurance premiums?  life insurance?   it is a slippery slope and getting steeper.

@Go44dad posted:

You want no part of a riseball from 39 feet.

It’s 43 feet. There are men pitching in ASA softball that make Jenny Finch look mediocre in comparison. Finch maxed in the low 70’s (68-72). Quality male softball pitchers max 95. Try 95 from 43 feet. You’re guessing at the plate.

This executive order is the sports aspect of Title IX down the drain. Mediocre male athletes who don’t make teams are switching genders and becoming the best in their state. Connecticut track is an example I’m aware of that made national news.

Men’s field hockey is big in other parts of the world. When families move to the US the boys have to play field hockey with the girls. It’s either play with the girls or the school conferences have to start boys field hockey. There isn’t a demand for it. I remember several years ago in Pennsylvania there was outrage a couple of boys were dominating girls field hockey playing for the same school. They were also injuring girls with their physical, but legal play.

For those who don’t know Title IX was not started about sports. It was about education and equal rights. It was about Patsy Mink graduating from college PBK and being rejected by twelve med schools. She went to law school, became a congresswoman and changed the world.

I realize there are some who are bothered by Title IX’s impact on sports. But girls who grow up playing sports tend to stay out of trouble and become mentally stronger and successful women. My daughter has learned bitch is a synonym for successful professional woman.

@RJM posted:

It’s 43 feet. There are men pitching in ASA softball that make Jenny Finch look mediocre in comparison. Finch maxed in the low 70’s (68-72). Quality male softball pitchers max 95. Try 95 from 43 feet. You’re guessing at the plate.

They let go at @39 feet.

Valid questions. Can anyone imagine a softball coming back at you at 110 miles per hour from 40 feet? It's hard to believe that we actually need to have these types of conversations.

Politics should be left out of sports! And make no mistake, this executive order is nothing but politics. It's all about optics, they don't care how it affects girls and women.

So far, so good with this thread.  Nice work, HSBBW.  Let's keep it going.

There is no doubt that problems are on the way.  I'd hope everyone can appreciate what Biden and Co. are trying to accomplish.  I think their hearts are mostly in the right place unless they're simply caving to political pressure.  Unfortunately, making decisions with your heart and less with your mind are rarely smart and/or holistic.

I was just thinking about this the other day.  How many guys have desires to play in the NBA?  Tons, but NBA rosters are small, so if you want to keep playing the game, your options are few and far.  And if you actually want to make a living playing the game, you're largely SOL.  But the average player in the WNBA makes about $100K a year.  Far better than you'll do in any league outside of the NBA, right?  Part of me thinks that no men will actually lie and face all the pressure/scrutiny/ridicule of switching gender identity to play in the WNBA.  But then I can't ignore how badly some kids want to play sports for a living.  How some kids feel they'll have no other chance in life outside of sports.  When presented with identifying as female, making $100K a year, and continuing to play the game or heading back to their old neighborhood and old distractions, adversity, etc, some will absolutely choose the former.  While it'll come with some hate from some, it'll also come with lots of attention and publicity. Something this younger generation is typically a big fan of.  Then the potential is there to be a star and be lauded by some groups as brave pioneers.  Do well enough in the WNBA and maybe you'll grab some NBA attention and have an opp to go where you always wanted - the NBA.  You'll get killed in press for switching genders back as an opportunist, but you'll be in the NBA and it'll be worth it for most.  Outside of a lie detector, there is no real science to identify fakes/opportunists under such circumstances.  And if you challenge someone's sincerity with regard to their gender identity, you'll get hammered by social justice groups and possibly lawsuits.  I hate to be so cynical, but there are few places we won't go for money and notoriety.  Sadly, we place a ton of emphasis on it each and every day.  Human nature (the good or the bad) isn't often considered when drafting legislation.  So yes, significant problems are inevitable.

@Triple J posted:

Valid questions. Can anyone imagine a softball coming back at you at 110 miles per hour from 40 feet? It's hard to believe that we actually need to have these types of conversations.

It's probably not realistic to see biological men excel at softball unless they've been at it their whole lives.  Jenny Finch pretty much proved that.  But what about volleyball, tennis, golf, swimming, track & field, wrestling, basketball, etc...  With private colleges costing $70k or more and out-of-state public schools costing $50k, I'm sure we will see some people exploit this order to get a scholarship from the women's team.

Sorry DanJ but you took it to politics.  Many on here do not think that what Biden and Company are trying to accomplish is good in any form just like the rest did not like what Trump did.  Please don't bring politics into this anymore than it already is by the agenda.

I do not think anyone will chastise these guys for saying they identify to gain scholarships or playing time or whatever.  The sad part is that pleasing one of their leading groups that supports them is also hurting another of the groups that supports them.   It may be that it blows up quicker than we think.

I asked a couple of college coaches of female sports what they were going to do over the past 24 hours and they and their administrations are already getting ready to deal with it.  As one softball coach, other than maybe pitching and that is because there are few boys who can fastpitch right now the sport could possibly become dominated by males.  But they experimented last night for the fun of it and a college baseball player threw three pitches from the girls mound and all were 75 plus having never thrown underhand before and 2/3 were strikes.

I think the first guy who comes out and does this successfully will receive endorsements and be praised.  Likely on several magazine covers.  That is the world we are in now.  Someone is going to take that gravy train.  And the girl who's spot he takes, better not complain or she will be a villain.

I think the guy who gets the most coverage will be the guy who is NOT transgender but does it to make a point will be the one.  I think that guy who just says I can manipulate the system and play P5 softball by saying I'm a woman and not acting or doing anything will be the one who gets crazy promotions but will also be the one who is hated.

I feel bad for female athletes who have put a lot of time and energy into being the best they can at their sport of choice.   In CT two biological males came one 1st and second in the 55 yd sprint women's championships last year (and I think the year before).   Imagine if your daughter came in 3rd in the 55 yd sprint last year. She should be state champ.  I don't know, maybe my priorities are messed up but I honestly dont' know anyone who thinks this EO was a good idea. It just doesn't seem fair to women.   

It's one helluva paradox, for sure.  We've invested so much into the concepts of equality and how everyone is the same and how no one is better than another, but then we're presented with inescapable instances proving we're not equal, not the same and that some do perform better.  I don't have the solution, but balance is likely the key.  A compromise where both factions are equally satisfied and dissatisfied with the outcome.  Or we can spend the next century+ fighting over it due to our unwillingness to compromise.

@Go44dad posted:

They let go at @39 feet.

Regardless of rubber distance or release distance men would still make Finch look mediocre. And she’s arguably the best female pitcher ever.

There is no paradox.  The party of science turning a blind eye to science when it does not match their social justice agenda is pure and simple hypocrisy.  We have made logical accommodation (Title 9) to provide opportunities for a group that makes up roughly 50% of the population.  Blowing that up to accommodate a handful of people simply to follow the string on a social justice narrative is ridiculous.  If “We” are all the same why don’t “We” just pick the best athletes, make one team and go play......after all, “We” are all the same, no?

If coaches of women's sports want to win (and I assume they do) then they will actively recruit males and the best women's teams will have the most males on the roster.  The end game of this isn't hard to figure out.

I did some research - it seems like US college track and field follows IOC rules that require transgender athletes to be actively undergoing horomone therapy in order to compete. If these same rules were extended to other scholarship sports like softball, etc , then you wouldn't have the issue of "mediocre men" deciding to "be women" to earn scholarship money.

As for high school, it seems unfair to allow people who have gone through puberty as men to compete athletically with people who have gone through puberty as women. On the other hand it seems cruel to tell a person who been identifying as trans from young ages, and who had the courage to admit it in public, that they can't play as their own self-identified gender. Maybe some sort of compromise might be reached for 9-12 grades? Like in track or other individual sports, allotting extra slots as needed in high-level meets so that the cis girls dont get bumped by trans girls?

It's so refreshing that this is the biggest of our worries these days!

@2019&21 Dad posted:

It's so refreshing that this is the biggest of our worries these days!

Covid is over. Democrat states are going back to work.

We were doing so well for the first 3 hours... FWIW, I do not think this is the answer either. I have no idea what the answer is but I believe there is an inherent competitive unfairness (scientifically proven unfairness) in the proposed Executive Order.

@2019&21 Dad posted:

It's so refreshing that this is the biggest of our worries these days!

It’s ridiculous that with all the worries, this was the top priority, but here we are...

I come to this site to talk about anything but COVID.  Being a baseball recruiting site it’s refreshing to talk about anything other than what’s in our faces daily.  

@Fan2024 posted:

I did some research - it seems like US college track and field follows IOC rules that require transgender athletes to be actively undergoing horomone therapy in order to compete. If these same rules were extended to other scholarship sports like softball, etc , then you wouldn't have the issue of "mediocre men" deciding to "be women" to earn scholarship money.

I don't believe they'll be able to enforce these rules.  I could be wrong, but I believe the order is that if someone identifies as transgender female then they can compete on the female teams, no questions asked.

How long until a trans gets cut but is obviously better than a normal female then sues for discrimination? If I were a coach of a female sport I’d be looking at a different occupation right now. No  chance I’d want any part of this.

The more I think about this the more I feel bad for female athletes. I don’t have a daughter, but I’d be super pissed if I had one and had to watch her get cut or lose to a person scientifically proven to be a male.

I read the text of the executive order. in the part specifically about access to sports, it says 'children' which is why I interpreted that as K-12 rather than college. Also, for high schools (including the CT high schools where those two trans track athletes attend) you have to register as a particular gender. Seems like this would keep you from playing girls softball and boys baseball in the same calendar year. Admittedly, i am a hs physics teacher, not a lawyer...

https://www.whitehouse.gov/bri...-sexual-orientation/

It is a travesty.

PitchingFan - Here's my 20 foot pole, and I'm not touching it.   I'm going to let the courts at all levels, NCAA, and IOC figure it out as they have more information on the topic than I do.   If this becomes a national issue, and I have more information I will write my senators and representatives as I typically do.   I'm just a humble father of 3 trying to keep his family safe in 2021.   

I think this is a non-issue masquerading as an issue to whip up hysteria.  Peer pressure will keep most boys from falsely identifying as girls just to play on a sports team.  PF, if you have talked to boys who said they would switch genders to play sports in college, I have to think they were pulling your leg.

I was reading something about Hank Aaron today, it said that on one of his negro league teams in 1953, a woman, Toni Stone, was playing 2nd base.

@anotherparent posted:

I think this is a non-issue masquerading as an issue to whip up hysteria.  Peer pressure will keep most boys from falsely identifying as girls just to play on a sports team.  PF, if you have talked to boys who said they would switch genders to play sports in college, I have to think they were pulling your leg.

I'd have to agree with you, but if someone told me a few years ago that they'd move their kid from California to Georgia so they could play HS football i would have said they were pulling my leg too.