Based on the thread title, I thought this would be about Lacrosse...I kid, I kid, I really love my LAX playing family members, the baseball ones gets a teensy bit more.
There is one side that is 100% guaranteed to get exactly what they want out of this incredibly sensitive and divisive situation - attorneys. The legislation and litigation at the federal and state levels will put enough food on their tables such that every day could be Thanksgiving. I should have gone to law school.
@22and25 posted:There is no paradox. The party of science turning a blind eye to science when it does not match their social justice agenda is pure and simple hypocrisy. We have made logical accommodation (Title 9) to provide opportunities for a group that makes up roughly 50% of the population. Blowing that up to accommodate a handful of people simply to follow the string on a social justice narrative is ridiculous. If “We” are all the same why don’t “We” just pick the best athletes, make one team and go play......after all, “We” are all the same, no?
Thank you 🤯
@anotherparent posted:I think this is a non-issue masquerading as an issue to whip up hysteria. Peer pressure will keep most boys from falsely identifying as girls just to play on a sports team. PF, if you have talked to boys who said they would switch genders to play sports in college, I have to think they were pulling your leg.
I was reading something about Hank Aaron today, it said that on one of his negro league teams in 1953, a woman, Toni Stone, was playing 2nd base.
Take away the boys falsely identifying just for personal gain. You still have boys/men identifying as a girl/woman and having an unfair advantage over normal females.
Nobody cares about a woman playing in the men’s league. I welcome it if they can compete. Going the other way though is unfair to women.
@Fan2024 posted:they can't play as their own self-identified gender.
Identify as whatever you want, but that doesn’t make it so. If I “identify” as a minority, will I get all the benefits that come with affirmative action? Will I be discriminated against for saying my skin is “——-“ ? God has created what he has created. We are all imperfect.
@TerribleBPthrower posted:Take away the boys falsely identifying just for personal gain. You still have boys/men identifying as a girl/woman and having an unfair advantage over normal females.
Nobody cares about a woman playing in the men’s league. I welcome it if they can compete. Going the other way though is unfair to women.
Very, very few. How about, let the women athletes decide?
Are you saying that women's teams will welcome these ringers because it gives them a better chance to win?
How many arguments have there been on this site about ringers on baseball teams?
@anotherparent posted:Very, very few. How about, let the women athletes decide?
Are you saying that women's teams will welcome these ringers because it gives them a better chance to win?
How many arguments have there been on this site about ringers on baseball teams?
I’ve talked to several female athletes from different sports about this over the past year or so. Not one has said they welcome it. IMO, it doesn’t matter if it’s 10 or 100. Somewhere a female who is putting in the work is losing her victory or spot on a team because a male thinks he’s a female. You can be ok with it and I’m fine with that.
I’m not saying women teams would welcome male players. I’m saying male teams don’t care about females playing if they can compete. There have been a few very good female travel ball players in the 2023 group in FL. They aren’t quite as good now as sophomores, but they will all likely make varsity this year.
FWIW, I don't agree with it at all, myself; I think sports should be done according to biology, too. But, I'm not an athlete. I would be interested in hearing more from female athletes, as they are the ones who are impacted.
I'm not sure I agree that men don't care if a woman tries to play with them; I mentioned the Hank Aaron thing because it happened to catch my eye. I daresay at the time, some man thought he could play 2B better than she could, and was being denied a chance. Same for the woman football kicker this year. Same for your 2023 examples in Florida.
Roadrunner, I think you have hit the nail on the head - is it their choice? If you chose to (pretend to) be a minority, that would be your choice. And you could choose not to be. Trans kids don't have that choice. They are either pretending to be something they are not, with huge risks of suicide, abuse, and bullying, or they are being who they are as best they can (while still putting up with huge risks of abuse and bullying). I dont think many hs boys will come out as trans just to get a spot on the hs team. Those trans kids who do come out should be able to play and it would be great if hs state meet rules could be altered so cis girls dont lose spots. No mention was made in the executive order requiring trans adult spots on sports teams - as adults, trans folks have choices (which school, whether to pursue hormone therapy, transition, etc) that high school children don't.
One thing I’ll say about the female Vanderbilt placekicker. Somewhere along the line she learned how to elevate a placekick. My son (played goalie) was asked to kick for the football team. He could easily hit from forty with no one in front of him. But he didn’t have the time to learn how to elevate the ball over the line. He did well as a punter.
But had a male soccer player learned how to elevate a placekick he would have been better than the female kicker. He would have had a stronger leg.
I remember the excitement over someone on the Women’s National Soccer Team hitting fifty yard field goals at an NFL practice. There weren’t linemen. She wasn’t taking two steps up to the ball. She was running up to it.
@anotherparent posted:FWIW, I don't agree with it at all, myself; I think sports should be done according to biology, too. But, I'm not an athlete. I would be interested in hearing more from female athletes, as they are the ones who are impacted.
I'm not sure I agree that men don't care if a woman tries to play with them; I mentioned the Hank Aaron thing because it happened to catch my eye. I daresay at the time, some man thought he could play 2B better than she could, and was being denied a chance. Same for the woman football kicker this year. Same for your 2023 examples in Florida.
If a female is getting a spot on a male team just because she’s a female, that’s wrong IMO. If she’s better than the male, welcome aboard. Again, just my opinion. The Vandy kicker was not good from what I saw. If it was a publicity stunt then they should be ashamed of themselves.
The boys on the teams with these girls (son has guest played with 2 of 3) didn’t care. A parent of a kid clearly not good enough to play on those teams was very critical of them and let everybody know they should be playing softball. I imagine there were others like him. But for the kids who were good enough to be on that team, they didn’t care
@Fan2024 posted:Roadrunner, I think you have hit the nail on the head - is it their choice? If you chose to (pretend to) be a minority, that would be your choice. And you could choose not to be. Trans kids don't have that choice. They are either pretending to be something they are not, with huge risks of suicide, abuse, and bullying, or they are being who they are as best they can (while still putting up with huge risks of abuse and bullying). I dont think many hs boys will come out as trans just to get a spot on the hs team. Those trans kids who do come out should be able to play and it would be great if hs state meet rules could be altered so cis girls dont lose spots. No mention was made in the executive order requiring trans adult spots on sports teams - as adults, trans folks have choices (which school, whether to pursue hormone therapy, transition, etc) that high school children don't.
You say “those trans kids who come out should be able to play”. Let’s follow your other assertion that it’s not a simple choice and they are just trying be be who they are the best they can.
Well, unfortunately who they are doesn’t make them compatible with mainstream sports. There are plenty of other genetic factors that keep just as many or more kids off the field. Should boys who are too short to compete with other boys be allowed to play girls basketball? There is a boy at my sons middle school who is profoundly small but wants nothing more than to play basketball. He tried out in 7th and 8th grade and just wasn’t one of the best 25 kids that made the cut. He could play circles around half of the girls who made the girls team. So purely based on his genetic make up he is eliminated, no fault of his own. What’s your argument for keeping him off the team where he could compete?
life is tough, many people are dealt shitty genetic circumstances that preclude them from having opportunities that other people take for granted. The ethical question is what we need to address. Do they need to be accommodated and at what cost to everyone else?
So again, should they be able to play? If the answer is yes, what is the next logical step to accommodate every micro minority impacted negatively by the genetic lottery?
@Fan2024 posted:Roadrunner, I think you have hit the nail on the head - is it their choice? If you chose to (pretend to) be a minority, that would be your choice. And you could choose not to be. Trans kids don't have that choice. They are either pretending to be something they are not, with huge risks of suicide, abuse, and bullying, or they are being who they are as best they can (while still putting up with huge risks of abuse and bullying). I dont think many hs boys will come out as trans just to get a spot on the hs team. Those trans kids who do come out should be able to play and it would be great if hs state meet rules could be altered so cis girls dont lose spots. No mention was made in the executive order requiring trans adult spots on sports teams - as adults, trans folks have choices (which school, whether to pursue hormone therapy, transition, etc) that high school children don't.
Everyone has a choice. Your choice may be painful, but it is your choice. If you are a biological male and choose to live as a female, it will be painful. Do not inflict your pain on others (women). Compete based on the genitals God provided you with. If you would like to compete with pink ribbons in your hair and a dress on, go for it. To the non trans biological boys you are competing with: keep your heads down, mouth shut and compete. Zero tolerance for harassment.
@22and25 posted:You say “those trans kids who come out should be able to play”. Let’s follow your other assertion that it’s not a simple choice and they are just trying be be who they are the best they can.
Well, unfortunately who they are doesn’t make them compatible with mainstream sports. There are plenty of other genetic factors that keep just as many or more kids off the field. Should boys who are too short to compete with other boys be allowed to play girls basketball? There is a boy at my sons middle school who is profoundly small but wants nothing more than to play basketball. He tried out in 7th and 8th grade and just wasn’t one of the best 25 kids that made the cut. He could play circles around half of the girls who made the girls team. So purely based on his genetic make up he is eliminated, no fault of his own. What’s your argument for keeping him off the team where he could compete?
life is tough, many people are dealt shitty genetic circumstances that preclude them from having opportunities that other people take for granted. The ethical question is what we need to address. Do they need to be accommodated and at what cost to everyone else?
So again, should they be able to play? If the answer is yes, what is the next logical step to accommodate every micro minority impacted negatively by the genetic lottery?
He could just “identify” as being tall. Add it to the resume. 6’7”, even if he has a bad tryout he will make the team and get many chances.
Said the mom of a vertically challenged D1 athlete 🤣
@RoadRunner posted:Everyone has a choice. Your choice may be painful, but it is your choice. If you are a biological male and choose to live as a female, it will be painful. Do not inflict your pain on others (women). Compete based on the genitals God provided you with. If you would like to compete with pink ribbons in your hair and a dress on, go for it. To the non trans biological boys you are competing with: keep your heads down, mouth shut and compete. Zero tolerance for harassment.
I agree with you 90%. However, I think that part of identification is what you wear, and the other part is who you want to hang out with. Just as I think peer pressure makes this rare, I could also see that someone born male who wants to play sports might prefer to be on a team with girls than with boys, even if the boys are the most sensitive, tolerant, and non-harassing in the world (which doesn't sound like any baseball team I remember). My impression is that the culture of girls' athletic teams is different from that of boys. Presumably girls who want to play baseball instead of softball prefer that boy culture?
That's why I say again, I want to know what the girls think about it. If they don't mind, I don't mind. If they do mind, I do mind. And I agree, life isn't fair, genetics aren't fair, there's no way to be fair to everyone.
@anotherparent posted:I agree with you 90%. However, I think that part of identification is what you wear, and the other part is who you want to hang out with. Just as I think peer pressure makes this rare, I could also see that someone born male who wants to play sports might prefer to be on a team with girls than with boys, even if the boys are the most sensitive, tolerant, and non-harassing in the world (which doesn't sound like any baseball team I remember). My impression is that the culture of girls' athletic teams is different from that of boys. Presumably girls who want to play baseball instead of softball prefer that boy culture?
That's why I say again, I want to know what the girls think about it. If they don't mind, I don't mind. If they do mind, I do mind. And I agree, life isn't fair, genetics aren't fair, there's no way to be fair to everyone.
I prefer to be a millionaire. Better culture. Do you think the millionaires will accept me? Let’s keep it real! Yes boys baseball teams are not the most sensitive. You can’t legislate sensitive. It’s uncomfortable to be different. Work with what God gave you. If you are man that thinks you are a woman, that is a large cross to bear. But you can’t force others to carry it for you. Is it fair for others to carry it? What if girls are uncomfortable showering with a boy that wants to be a girl? Who’s feelings are more important? Keep it concrete. “You get what you get and you don’t have a fit!”
I’ve done research on trans due to a trans cousin. The research I did was on girls becoming boys. She decided she’s a boy in high school.
In many states if a parent tells their kid he/she isn’t trans and the kid reports it the parent can lose custody of their kid. A parent can’t even ask, “Are you sure?” It’s considered being contentious. My cousin, a high powered lawyer is very upset by the complete lack of control in helping his kid in directing (now) his life. All he could say is, “Whatever you wish,” when his daughter was a high school soph.
This kid, to double down decided he’s a gay trans. He announced he’s interested in dating a certain guy at the Thanksgiving dinner table a day after coming out as a trans.
Going back to be a preteen the kid has always done contrarian things. I think it’s because the parents are Ivy Leaguers and powerhouse lawyers while the kid can’t carry their intellectual lunchbox.
80% of girls who claim to be trans guys in high school decide they’re not in college. It was just a phase.
What concerns me is educators who want to be teaching about gender at ages where kids aren’t old enough to understand their own sexuality. Preteens should not be selecting their sex or even thinking about it.
I was a class clown as a kid. It was my way of drawing attention I wasn’t getting at home. Had “self identify” been terminology when I was young I would have told school counselors I self identify as a lunatic.
@anotherparent I just asked my daughters one who plays women’s basketball in the big 10 and the other who manages in the ACC. Their response was:
“It makes sense to me if they’re transsexual in the way that they’re actually taking hormones to become the gender they identify. But if you’re transgender but physically you’re still a man then that’s not going to work well.”
For the first two years after starting hormones, the trans women in their review were able to do 10 percent more pushups and 6 percent more situps than their cisgender female counterparts. After two years, Roberts told NBC News, “they were fairly equivalent to the cisgender women.”
Their running times declined as well, but two years on, trans women were still 12 percent faster on the 1.5 mile-run than their cisgender peers.
I am afraid what your daughters might not be considering is the impact of puberty. Taking hormones post puberty to suppress gender traits does not undo the muscle growth and bone density advantages of having gone through puberty with teenage boy doses of testosterone in your system. There may be some loss of physical advantages with hormone therapy but the genetic advantages for the most part are baked in at that point.
Does anyone really think a year of estrogen injections is going to level the playing field for these athletes?
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Love it! She's having a great season. College is somewhat different, though; how do you think she would have felt about it in high school? Would it have been relevant in AAU ball?
Thanks! She's just working on improving each season and is blessed with great teammates--they truly enjoy playing together.
I honestly think my girls responded from a place of compassion...thinking of someone who is transgender and just wants to play sports. The reality of it...which I think we've generally explored from all sides here...is much harder to implement. For example, if her brother were transgender, even if he started taking hormones his junior year, would have been a 6'5" 210 pound beast (he's 6'6" and 240 now). Even against D1-bound competition in the WCAC (a HS conference that produced NBA players like Marquelle Fultz and college players like Hunter Dickinson), he was averaging several dunks a game including one game where he had 6--he would have been ridiculous against his sister's team even though they started girls that went on to UConn (US Gatorade player of the year), UNC (Mutombo's niece--6'3"), Northwester, JMU and Colombia. I do agree that it would be highly unlikely (not impossible) that someone would pretend to be transgender just to play sports but even that does not eliminate the biological advantage transgender (male to female) athletes have.
There is a really good article on Brittney Griner in Elle (6'8" with hands bigger than LeBron's). They discuss the IOC's rules and the same slippery argument about biological advantages and how do you police that if you don't have a line in the sand.
"While the IOC has defended its policy [on testing testosterone levels for athletes of "debatable" sexuality], the medical community basically agrees that there is no testosterone cutoff that makes a person definitely male or female. Moreover, many argue, why single out testosterone from the other physical advantages elite athletes tend to possess? "Having big hands, being tall, having lax joints, having high oxygen-carrying capacities"—these aren't disqualifying factors, says J. Michael Bostwick, a Mayo Clinic psychiatrist who has studied the issue. "What if we got rid of all the people with lax limbs who are swimmers, because it's unfair to those of us who have tight limbs?" Or, as he wrote in a June 2012 medical journal article, viewers of the Olympics "might want to consider, in all fairness, how many world-class athletes bear any resemblance to regular Joes and Joans, either in how they look or perform."
@RoadRunner Thanks!!! She's a spitfire though. :-)
PTWood, great pic! What a fantastic opportunity to play at that level of competition at such a great academic institution. And you make some great points in your post. Toward the end, the quote from the IOC I think misses the mark on the real issue. You alluded to it with the example of your son and I tried to point it out as well, the present level of testosterone may be useful in policing doping but in trans women it does nothing to address the discrepancies in baseline genetic advantage from the process of reaching full physical maturity as a biological male. Setting a limit on present testosterone for adult trans women is as useful as closing the gate after the horse has left the stable.
22and25, I wanted to address the small 7 and 8th grade boy scenario, and why do I see this as different. For marginaliized children without parental support or resources, public schools (and by extension, state and federal governments) may be the only institutions looking out for their interests. Rec or travel leagues may not be accessible for various reasons.
Paula what we really need here to be fair is a pic of your 2 side by side! Your female bb player and your monster baseball player!
She’s not just adorable. She’s talented.
I don’t have a recent side by side but I do have two pictures of where they spent their entire Christmas breaks for comparison (anyone with athletes can relate to these pictures)!! LOL
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You are blessed Paula. Enjoy it.!
He makes that fridge look like a camping model.
I feel you pain. My guy came in the other day with 2 big bags of food. I thought sweet!
But alas he sat and ate 43 chicken nuggets himself.
@Fan2024 posted:22and25, I wanted to address the small 7 and 8th grade boy scenario, and why do I see this as different. For marginaliized children without parental support or resources, public schools (and by extension, state and federal governments) may be the only institutions looking out for their interests. Rec or travel leagues may not be accessible for various reasons.
I am sorry but I don’t understand what point you are making here. My point, as illustrated by the small aspiring basketball player, is that genetic make up alone has predetermined many people’s circumstances. His opportunity to pursue basketball is lost because he will never grow beyond 5’ tall. In the sports scenario is he being marginalized any more or less than someone born with gender dysphoria? The emotionally comfortable thing to say is, “he should be allowed to play” but the reality is there is no practical way to accommodate him.
Why do you make him eat out of the mini fridge while your daughter gets the full size model? Stop playing favorites, mom.....
@PTWood posted:
I don’t have a recent side by side but I do have two pictures of where they spent their entire Christmas breaks for comparison (anyone with athletes can relate to these pictures)!! LOL
I used to joke about getting a glass door for the fridge. When the kids went though major growth spurts even if they decided not to eat they would stick their faces in the fridge to think about it.
That pic of James just cracks me up! Ask about PT son's GF.
@PTWood posted:
That's the smallest refrigerator I have ever seen. LOL!
Anyone else notice a huge drop in grocery bills once kid went off to school. I mean appreciably notice? Like trying to figure out why your checking account balance is high, then looking at all your auto-pays thinking something didn't work.
@Go44dad posted:That's the smallest refrigerator I have ever seen. LOL!
Anyone else notice a huge drop in grocery bills once kid went off to school. I mean appreciably notice? Like trying to figure out why your checking account balance is high, then looking at all your auto-pays thinking something didn't work.
Groceries and water bill is 1/3 of what it is when they are home.