MIT and baseball

Heard the same thing regarding Caltech...  I think there's a member on here whose kid was accepted at Caltech - hopefully he'll chime in....

2019 was accepted at Caltech and will be a Frosh this coming Fall. He was recruited at Caltech and talked with Coach Carroll at MIT in Summer Headfirst (CA) and Brown camp. Coming off injury/surgery his velo wasn't there for MIT to have serious interest, but Caltech was interested and kept in touch through last Fall. What I know is that both schools offer Early Action - so no commitment needed on the student's part until May 1st. Having said that, I can tell you that the 1st conversation with coaches at both schools started with him telling them about his SAT's, GPA and courseload. Once established that he could get in on pure academics, they moved into a baseball conversation. Both said they don't do a pre-read, but since it's Early Action, not Early Decision, you can apply to both and wait it out to see how it all shakes out. 

My son applied to both EA, and was deferred at MIT and accepted EA at Caltech. If he got into MIT and decided to go there, he was planning to walk-on. He didn't end up getting into MIT, but by then had pretty much decided he wanted Caltech anyway. Caltech coach advocated for him both with Admissions and with Financial Aid office. While there's no recruited athlete "discount" at Caltech, they are looking to improve all sports and of course are looking for a well rounded student body. He didn't have all the extracurriculars many others at that level had because of baseball training/playing, so I believe being able to play made a difference in him getting accepted.

Good luck to your son Chico!

Congrats to your son 2019&21 -- getting into Caltech takes serious talent.  

Your message is very helpful, but one thing I'm not sure I follow:  Unless the application deadline for EA at MIT and Caltech is super early, how could an applicant apply ED and EA?  You could submit both applications; but since ED is binding, the only way to take advantage of EA would be if the ED school turned you down, right?  

I'd love to have my son consider MIT.  (We're on the east coast, so Caltech probably isn't an option.)  But I don't know how I could advise him to turn down an almost-guaranteed ED spot at a different, also very good school in order to take his chances at MIT.  Am I missing something?

2019&21 Dad posted:

2019 was accepted at Caltech and will be a Frosh this coming Fall. He was recruited at Caltech and talked with Coach Carroll at MIT in Summer Headfirst (CA) and Brown camp. Coming off injury/surgery his velo wasn't there for MIT to have serious interest, but Caltech was interested and kept in touch through last Fall. What I know is that both schools offer Early Action - so no commitment needed on the student's part until May 1st. Having said that, I can tell you that the 1st conversation with coaches at both schools started with him telling them about his SAT's, GPA and courseload. Once established that he could get in on pure academics, they moved into a baseball conversation. Both said they don't do a pre-read, but since it's Early Action, not Early Decision, you can apply to both and wait it out to see how it all shakes out. 

My son applied to both EA, and was deferred at MIT and accepted EA at Caltech. If he got into MIT and decided to go there, he was planning to walk-on. He didn't end up getting into MIT, but by then had pretty much decided he wanted Caltech anyway. Caltech coach advocated for him both with Admissions and with Financial Aid office. While there's no recruited athlete "discount" at Caltech, they are looking to improve all sports and of course are looking for a well rounded student body. He didn't have all the extracurriculars many others at that level had because of baseball training/playing, so I believe being able to play made a difference in him getting accepted.

Good luck to your son Chico!

Was hoping you’d jump in!  Solid info

2019&21 Dad, was your 2019 son a pitcher? If so, can you give any advice on what FB velocities the Caltech coach wants to see vs the MIT coach (assuming control is good and kid has good secondary/offspeed).

Also, did either Caltech or MIT coach explicitly say what SAT/ACT scores and GPA they expect for a baseball candidate? I assume they want 800/36 math score or very close to it, but what about the verbal scores? Thanks!

Chico Escuela posted:

Congrats to your son 2019&21 -- getting into Caltech takes serious talent.  

Your message is very helpful, but one thing I'm not sure I follow:  Unless the application deadline for EA at MIT and Caltech is super early, how could an applicant apply ED and EA?  You could submit both applications; but since ED is binding, the only way to take advantage of EA would be if the ED school turned you down, right?  

I'd love to have my son consider MIT.  (We're on the east coast, so Caltech probably isn't an option.)  But I don't know how I could advise him to turn down an almost-guaranteed ED spot at a different, also very good school in order to take his chances at MIT.  Am I missing something?

It can be confusing I know. The thing to know is that there is no ED at either Caltech or MIT, only EA. The difference being that EA is much more flexible - no commitment to attend if accepted, and you are allowed to apply to any other school you want. So you have until May 1st to decide if you are accepted EA at either one. EA decisions come out in mid-December for both. That said, you are right, if you apply ED to another school then you would not be able to apply EA to other schools. Those 2 were my son's top choices, so he was comfortable with that approach. 

In 2009ish, at the MIT HC invite, we visited MIT. (HC eventually moved to Stephens Tech - a great D3 school for those looking at financial areas.)

First, the entire family loved MIT.

Second, the players didn't get any admissions boost. Coach submits his "list" but it's just informative to admissions. 

Third, S said the players were calculating parabolas on HR balls - during the game. Smart guys all!

Fourth, our issues were just like normal families: "can you get me in if I match the middle of the incoming class." We were explicitly told "no, there are no guarantees express or implied." Some of the horror stories were about recruits who turned down big time D1 offers (e.g., Arizona), only to be rejected. After really pressing, I became convinced that there was no way to manipulate MITs admission system.

So, while S loved the coach, school, baseball players and area, the uncertainty made us pass.

My experience is dated, but haven't learned any new facts since 2009ish.

Zoom 2020 posted:

2019&21 Dad, was your 2019 son a pitcher? If so, can you give any advice on what FB velocities the Caltech coach wants to see vs the MIT coach (assuming control is good and kid has good secondary/offspeed).

Also, did either Caltech or MIT coach explicitly say what SAT/ACT scores and GPA they expect for a baseball candidate? I assume they want 800/36 math score or very close to it, but what about the verbal scores? Thanks!

Yes, my son was/is a pitcher. I don't know specifically what velocity each might have as a "floor", but I do know it's lower at Caltech since it's a much smaller school and they are not quite as choosy as MIT with that smaller recruitment pool. Neither school said what academic scores they'd expect - it would be the same scores as for the non-athlete candidate. They put just as much emphasis on verbal as math. Son didn't take the ACT and only took the SAT once and scored near 1600, I wouldn't expect to get into either one with an SAT below 1500 - probably should be 1540 or above. As for grades, GPA should be 4.0 or very close and transcript should show a record of very challenging AP coursework. Caltech was also interested in him showing any STEM interest/work outside school. He did some Physics research with a professor at a local state school, which was noted as a point of interest by Admissions. 

Our experience was similar to 2019/21's, as far as info is concerned.  Both coaches interested in my 2019, but a B+ in Alg2/Trig honors cooled off MIT and and a 650 in Physics SAT 2, cooled off Cal Tech. The 33 ACT was fine, according to the coaches, but MIT needed at least an A- and Cal Tech wanted a 700+.  These were both after exchanges with the coaches.  Not sure it ever got to a typical pre-read stage with admissions.  From what others have written that stage doesn't seem to exist.   It sounds like my guy was dinged early by the coaches because of scores/grades that were clearly shortfalls. 

Congrats on the Cal Tech admit!

smokeminside posted:

Our experience was similar to 2019/21's, as far as info is concerned.  Both coaches interested in my 2019, but a B+ in Alg2/Trig honors cooled off MIT and and a 650 in Physics SAT 2, cooled off Cal Tech. The 33 ACT was fine, but MIT needed at least an A- and Cal Tech wanted a 700+.  These were both pre-read situations, so I'm not sure if that matches others' experiences.

Forgot about the subject tests. Both schools require a Math and a Science SAT subject test. Son's were both 800, and from what I've seen and heard, most kids accepted are right around there. 

Thanks, regarding FB Velus, does 81-83 for Caltech and 84-86 mph for MIT seem like reasonable floors? Obviously, the higher the better for either.

Smoke, was your son’s B+ in his Junior year, meaning he didn’t have an A in Calculus to offset that? Seems kinda harsh to rule out a kid with one B+ if higher level math courses were A’s and he had stellar standardized test and subject test scores in math and science.

Zoom 2020 posted:

Thanks, regarding FB Velus, does 81-83 for Caltech and 84-86 mph for MIT seem like reasonable floors? Obviously, the higher the better for either.

Having seen both play  I would say maybe a bit lower on both as a floor. The big difference is that MIT has quite a few good arms.  Caltech has  good arms at the top, but gets thin in a hurry after that.

BTW if you have a second and want to look at a roster that is not filled with kinesiology majors (not that there is anything wrong with that) take a look at the Caltech roster sometime.  Along with the usual items, each player has a "research and STEM" section, listing all kinds of amazing things.

Players were calculating parabolas on HR balls - during the game. Smart guys all!

MIT athletes can also be normal, well adjusted crazy kids. I was chatting with some MIT parents at their regional this year. One had a video of some players at the mall riding these ...

(not actual video) https://youtu.be/qVGltDIQ3gk

Man, those girls must be savants. So young and in MIT already!

Zoom 2020 posted:

Smoke, was your son’s B+ in his Junior year, meaning he didn’t have an A in Calculus to offset that? Seems kinda harsh to rule out a kid with one B+ if higher level math courses were A’s and he had stellar standardized test and subject test scores in math and science.

Yes it was second semester jr. year, after an A first semester.  I actually think it was just an ez way for them to say no quickly. He bit off more than he could chew Jr. Year, taking both AP Physics 1 and 2.  Spent all his time trying to nail that and his math grade suffered.  Ended up getting As in AP Calc.  But  he will admit the other kids at his school that are going to MIT are stronger students than he is.  He tried to get in their study groups and partner with them in labs because he knew he'd learn more.  His native intelligence might not have been where they needed it to be but at least he was street smart enough to tag along with kids who he could learn from!

It is a big risk, but one my son would take again if he had to do it over again.  Going into his senior year, I cannot imagine a better situation for him academically and athletically.  

Congrats to your son 2019&21 -- getting into Caltech takes serious talent.  

Your message is very helpful, but one thing I'm not sure I follow:  Unless the application deadline for EA at MIT and Caltech is super early, how could an applicant apply ED and EA?  You could submit both applications; but since ED is binding, the only way to take advantage of EA would be if the ED school turned you down, right?  

I'd love to have my son consider MIT.  (We're on the east coast, so Caltech probably isn't an option.)  But I don't know how I could advise him to turn down an almost-guaranteed ED spot at a different, also very good school in order to take his chances at MIT.  Am I missing something?

*****

I know a 2019 in another "sport" (sailing) without strong coach pull who applied ED Brown and EA MIT. All admissions are a gamble at schools of this level and "almost-guaranteed" is still not 100%. The family chose to go with the two applications, both with "support" from the coach. The kid ended up getting into both and had to turn down MIT because Brown was binding. I don't think the MIT coach was very happy...but college acceptances at that level are hard to come by and the family chose not to put all their eggs in one basket.

It's a really tough call...

I know of 2 kids who got admissions help at MIT through athletics - one lacrosse and one water polo.  I am not privy to the specific details but my son is aware of their grades and test scores and these were in the middle 50% but well below medan.  Both of these kids announced their "commitment" in the early fall of senior year, well before the admissions decisions were made.

It is not a commitment at MIT until Admissions says it is on December 15 or Pi Day.  Those kids took a chance of having egg on their face by announcing that.  Everyone is told of the process.  Some choose to hear what they want to hear.  I have no doubt that baseball was my son's "hook" that got him admitted to MIT, but he was well within range of the grades, test scores and made A's in the most rigorous courses his school offered.  The last item being very key to coaches when  being considered by MIT regardless of sport.  There are General Institute Requirements that ALL students must take and MIT doesn't have a Kinesiology degree!  Admissions must make sure that athletes have the ability to be successful as there are no tutors for athletes.  We were well aware that the coach wanted him but that THERE ARE NO GUARANTEES at MIT.  

My 2017 also looked at MIT at Coach Carroll's request.  Son had a 35 ACT and ok grades but nowhere near 4.0 but at a well known private rigorous school.  He is liberal arts focused and NOT STEM.  That was actually a boost too.  We were told the coaching staff presents a list to Admissions.  I remember hearing the year before they had 10 boys on the list and 6 got in.  That was a 60% admissions rate which is significantly higher than the 5% for the general public.  But of course 4 of those boys the year before, who applied EA, did not get in, so it is a risk.  

Twoboys posted:

My 2017 also looked at MIT at Coach Carroll's request.  Son had a 35 ACT and ok grades but nowhere near 4.0 but at a well known private rigorous school.  He is liberal arts focused and NOT STEM.  That was actually a boost too.  We were told the coaching staff presents a list to Admissions.  I remember hearing the year before they had 10 boys on the list and 6 got in.  That was a 60% admissions rate which is significantly higher than the 5% for the general public.  But of course 4 of those boys the year before, who applied EA, did not get in, so it is a risk.  

 

I do recall that when I was looking at colleges > 30 years ago, MIT said it was actively seeking non-STEM majors (although they also had to be able to complete a more demanding set of math and science requirements than would be necessary for a History or English degree at most schools).  My son is interested in STEM fields, so that won't help him; but if you have a kid who is good at math and science, but wants to go in another direction, then this could be a useful point.  

Matty posted:

It is a big risk, but one my son would take again if he had to do it over again.  Going into his senior year, I cannot imagine a better situation for him academically and athletically.  

HA admissions/recruiting can be a huge risk especially with ultra-competitive schools like MIT and CalTech.   My engineering daughter in law had perfect SATs plus she was a recruited soccer player.  She was wait-listed at MIT.    However she did bounce back nicely with a Presidential scholarship (Women in Engineering...tuition paid all four years...and played soccer) at an Ivy.    I don't understand MIT's decision  to this day, but that is the reality of it.   It is that big of a risk and you may find yourself saying WTF!    Just when you think you've got it figured out something like that happens.   Best of luck applying to any of these schools.

Yes Chico, our 2017 had the perfect/near perfect math/science scores but was vocal about his desire to study econ/history/classics...it definitely helped at certain schools.  

Man, this thread is making me feel like the dunderhead sitting in the back corner of the room. 

Well, forgive me for this joke:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WPigztM_7uM

fenwaysouth posted:

Matty posted:

It is a big risk, but one my son would take again if he had to do it over again.  Going into his senior year, I cannot imagine a better situation for him academically and athletically.  

   My engineering daughter in law had perfect SATs plus she was a recruited soccer player.  

....dude you are going to be one stupid grandpa....just sayin' 

BTW happy Fathers Day!

S was 2018 MIT grad and was a pitcher.  My 2 cents: The kids that are playing any sport there are simply put, extremely smart that happen to be athletic.  Admission is not a guarantee even with top academic credentials as noted in Fenway's post.  Needless to say such credentials are necessary to be considered by admissions.  A post noted the much higher admissions rate for baseball than general population and I would suggest that is due to the screening by the coaches during recruiting.  They have been there a while and know if the recruit will have any chance of admission and if the kid doesn't they'll let him know and the kid will apply to another HA.  Also, the athletes take their respective sport very seriously and are VERY good (look at the athletics page and go through the various sports) but they take their academics even more seriously.  This is not to say they are cutthroat but they start thinking about serious internships not long after arriving on campus.  Only a small percentage play summer ball.

There was a post about pitching velo.  My son sat at 80-83.  He got spot starts as a freshman and the next 3 years he came out of the bullpen. Most of the pitchers are/were 84-87 with some hitting 90.  They give everyone the chance to pitch to see how effective they can be.   Position players have a much more competitive path for playing time but if you can play you'll get a chance.  Overall, I can't say enough about the opportunities the school gives graduates and the fun my son had playing.  

BOF posted:

fenwaysouth posted:

Matty posted:

It is a big risk, but one my son would take again if he had to do it over again.  Going into his senior year, I cannot imagine a better situation for him academically and athletically.  

   My engineering daughter in law had perfect SATs plus she was a recruited soccer player.  

....dude you are going to be one stupid grandpa....just sayin' 

BTW happy Fathers Day!

Thanks BOF!  ;-)  It was a role I was born to play!

2019&21 Dad posted:

My son applied to both EA, and was deferred at MIT and accepted EA at Caltech. If he got into MIT and decided to go there, he was planning to walk-on.

Could you expand on what "walk-on" means in the context of HA D3s?  Since there are no athletic scholarships, how does a school distinguish between athletes who are _______ vs. walk-ons?  Is it simply an understanding between the player and coach that the player is wanted/expected to contribute vs. showing up for tryouts blind?  I've heard of "invited walk-ons" but only in the context of D1s and compared to kids with scholarships.

Thanks for any info!

Dirtbag30 posted:

2019&21 Dad posted:

My son applied to both EA, and was deferred at MIT and accepted EA at Caltech. If he got into MIT and decided to go there, he was planning to walk-on.

Could you expand on what "walk-on" means in the context of HA D3s?  Since there are no athletic scholarships, how does a school distinguish between athletes who are _______ vs. walk-ons?  Is it simply an understanding between the player and coach that the player is wanted/expected to contribute vs. showing up for tryouts blind?  I've heard of "invited walk-ons" but only in the context of D1s and compared to kids with scholarships.

Thanks for any info!

At my son's school there are three kinds of freshman who show up for the first day of practice. 

1 - players who for whom coach had received an assurance from admissions that an ED application would be  accepted.
2 - players who were recruited, but to whom coach was unable to guarantee admission.
3 - players who coach did not recruit - AKA walkons. (correction: this group has a tryout before regular practices begin.)

So far, every member of groups 1 and 2 have made the team, and no member of group 3 has done so.

A former poster on this board told me at his son’s often ranked HA D3 twenty-seven kids showed up for walk on tryouts for three roster spots invited by the coach. Maybe it was a matter of how the kids interpreted the term “invited.”

Or how much incentive that coach gets for filling up dorms with full pay students. 

Commenting on JCG post above to define walk on in the D3 context.  This will depend on the D3 school!  Some over recruit and some have JV teams...but perhaps the umbrella definition would be a player who was not recruited to come to that school before they accepted a place there and shows up for tryouts in the fall or spring (when held, different D3s have tryouts different times).  The player may or may not have been in in touch with the coaches before these tryouts.  

Dirtbag30 posted:

2019&21 Dad posted:

My son applied to both EA, and was deferred at MIT and accepted EA at Caltech. If he got into MIT and decided to go there, he was planning to walk-on.

Could you expand on what "walk-on" means in the context of HA D3s?  Since there are no athletic scholarships, how does a school distinguish between athletes who are _______ vs. walk-ons?  Is it simply an understanding between the player and coach that the player is wanted/expected to contribute vs. showing up for tryouts blind?  I've heard of "invited walk-ons" but only in the context of D1s and compared to kids with scholarships.

Thanks for any info!

My interpretation of "walk-on" in the context I stated was based on the coach's position that as a pitcher, he would have the chance to show what he has, and if effective, he would be given continued opportunity. Basically, no guarantees, and role would likely not be large, but sounded like they could always use more pitching, and wouldn't be too quick to turn any away. This position, along with the difference in Winter/early Spring weather between Massachussetts and southern California, helped sway him toward Caltech where he was a recruit. :-)  Hope that helps clarify.

Having had the honor to attend both schools as a student (rowed crew at MIT and then as a grad student fenced at club level at Caltech), I'd start by agreeing that admissions to both is super-selective.  Also be extremely careful for culture fit at either.  MIT is an urban medium size school where most students major in an engineering major but majors from economics to design are available and strong.  Since its in Cambridge near Boston there are a ton of social opportunities off campus too.  Caltech is a very small school (class size about 240) in SoCal, where most students want to pursue a PhD in a hard science, and pretty far from anything outside Pasadena.    If your student is seriously considering a career in science and an exceptional talent in math/science, its could be right.  They are very very different places for all the names sound similar.  

Great point, PACADAD.  I can only speak to the MIT culture and will give my opinion on that.  It would be great to hear from a current CalTech parent on this topic.  I am pleased to say that my son has had a very complete college experience.  In addition to baseball and school, he has interned at 3 vastly different companies, held leadership positions in his fraternity, had a girlfriend and is currently in a top position with MIT's chapter of a national organization.  He has loved all that MIT and Boston have to offer, but it might not be right for others.

Bringing this thread back to life as there is a new crop of parents with lots of questions. Hopefully, some of you in this thread are still around to chime in. I'm going to bounce around here a little as I've got so many questions after reading this and son talking to coaches. My son is a 2023

MIT - So I've seen a bunch of sites saying MIT requires chemistry. Son skipped chemistry at the suggestion of his college counselor. He went into AP Physics 1 and got an A+ and a 5. At their suggestion he took the AP Physics C (calculus) exam without taking the course and also got a 5. He's now in AP Physics 2 as a junior. Does he need to go back and take chemistry or can he keep moving forward? FWIW, he is also starting a Physics team for the school

CalTech - Coach Whitehead had a lengthy conversation with my son about his courses and test scores. He mentioned CalTech is test blind right now but that might be changing.

SAT - My son is taking the SAT on 10/2. His practice test are ranging from 1540-1570. When is it recommended to take the SAT Science test? I don't want to overload him while prepping for the October test. Also, as mentioned above, he hasn't taken chemistry. Would standard test prep get him through that part of the test or should he take the course first? He won't be able to take the course until his senior year, which would mess up the timeline for admissions.

There is an SAT subject test date in early June, just after the end of the school year.  That's the best time for taking subject tests, when the subject is freshest.  It's also the start of the summer baseball travel season.  Keep in mind that you can take tests anywhere - my oldest son did them while we were at the beach.  But you can't do it in the middle of a showcase.