Can't say I saw this coming at all. The Astros are a much better team on paper. But as the cliche goes, you don't play the game on paper...
FoxDad posted:What a wacky 7th inning. Suzuki's improbable HR off Verlander followed by a walk to Robles and Turner, Eaton's bunt, the routine grounder just off the lip of Bergman's glove. Then the floodgates opened with Cabrera's hit to center, Zimmerman's slow grounder towards third. That's 33 pitches the Astro's wish they could get back.
If someone told me the Nationals would be heading back home with a 2 game lead, I would have told them they were nuts. Who would have thought there would be back to back losses by Cole and Verlander?
This what I love about baseball. You have to play the game. Anything can happen - even the improbable.
“You have a great year, and you can run into a buzz saw,” Game 2 starter Stephen Strasburg, who allowed just those two runs over six innings, said last week. “Maybe this year we’re the buzz saw.”
This is an instant classic quote. As with many things in baseball, a metaphor for life. Sometimes you're the paddle, sometimes you're the buzzsaw.
Yes, Cole and Verlander seemed completely unlikely to suffer back to back losses, but after they got to Cole it was far from improbable that Verlander would get touched up. He has not been as spectacular this post season. On the contrary, Strasburg has been a monster. Which leads me to Scherzer. To me, this series comes back to what he did in Game 1. I hate to use the "gutsy" cliche, but for a guy that had no command, to keep his team in the game was a pure act of competitive will. The Nats bats have been impressive, no doubt, but Scherzer and Strasburg have been the primary factors in this particular buzz saw.
There is an old saying in baseball that great pitching, great defense and timely hitting trumps all. This is what the Nationals have done throughout the playoffs against "better teams on paper". Love it when old sayings are true. When I look at this objectively, Verlander kept them in the game and went toe to toe with Strasburg throughout the game. They were on a similar pitch count and both settled down after a rough first inning. However, then Nats defense was much better. The Astros defense was exposed for poor judgement. Bregman knows he has to hold that infield hit ball which led two more runs and opened the flood gates because of an errant throw to first. Okay Verlander gave up the go ahead to Suzuki but that is just one run and you've got to be disciplined with decisions to keep your team in the game. The Astros just looked sloppy, and they didn't know what to do because they've never been in that position before. The Astros dug themselves a hole and their bats couldn't get them out....so much for timely hitting.
There were glimpse of the Nats playing this well during the season, but nothing like the streak they are on now. The Nats are my national league team and I follow them pretty closely. The Astros just look lost and they are trying to blast themselves out of this offensive funk. This is playing right into the Nats hands.
As always, JMO.
On another note, Phillies get Girardi! As a lifer, I am really happy and hope he can right the ship with his experience.
Maybe I’m crazy but I still think the Astros win the series. I never thought that last night’s game was a must-win. Now, tomorrow’s game is definitely a must win for them.
Regarding the Nats, as soon as they beat the Dodgers, I told some friends that they were going to the WS because I felt like their pitching would dominate the Cards.
As a Braves fan watching the Nats down the stretch, it was apparent that they were the one team that I don’t think any NL team wanted to get in.
I think the rest of the series will be epic but the Astros definitely have to win tomorrow.
hshuler posted:Maybe I’m crazy but I still think the Astros win the series. I never thought that last night’s game was a must-win. Now, tomorrow’s game is definitely a must win for them.
Regarding the Nats, as soon as they beat the Dodgers, I told some friends that they were going to the WS because I felt like their pitching would dominate the Cards.
As a Braves fan watching the Nats down the stretch, it was apparent that they were the one team that I don’t think any NL team wanted to get in.
I think the rest of the series will be epic but the Astros definitely have to win tomorrow.
Historically speaking they have about a 15% chance.
Wechson posted:hshuler posted:Maybe I’m crazy but I still think the Astros win the series. I never thought that last night’s game was a must-win. Now, tomorrow’s game is definitely a must win for them.
Regarding the Nats, as soon as they beat the Dodgers, I told some friends that they were going to the WS because I felt like their pitching would dominate the Cards.
As a Braves fan watching the Nats down the stretch, it was apparent that they were the one team that I don’t think any NL team wanted to get in.
I think the rest of the series will be epic but the Astros definitely have to win tomorrow.
Historically speaking they have about a 15% chance.
The stat that was mentioned was out of 15 teams to go 0-2 in the first two games, only three had gone on to win the WS. The last one being the '96 Yankees.
Fangraphs playoff odds still give the astros a 35% chance to win the series, higher than the initial 30% they gave the nats.
Is Fangraphs watching the series or are they on vacation somewhere with no wifi?
Is Greinke pitching in Game 3?
3and2Fastball posted:Is Greinke pitching in Game 3?
That's what they indicated during last night's broadcast. Sanchez for the Nationals.
ZiPS on Fangraph has the Astros at 25.7%. The ZiPS projection takes probable starting pitchers into account. The coin flip method puts the Astros at 18.8%, so the 2019 numbers still say that the Astros are the "better team". Of course, none of these methods could have predicted Kurt Suzuki would hit a pivotal home run off of Verlander.
Attachments
Perhaps he is "due" but it is tough to bet on Greinke in the postseason. (Career 4.44 ERA in the postseason and most of his best outings were in 2015 & prior)
MidAtlanticDad posted:ZiPS on Fangraph has the Astros at 25.7%. The ZiPS projection takes probable starting pitchers into account. The coin flip method puts the Astros at 18.8%, so the 2019 numbers still say that the Astros are the "better team". Of course, none of these methods could have predicted Kurt Suzuki would hit a pivotal home run off of Verlander.
It was only shown briefly last night, but the stats for Suzuki vs Verlander showed Suzuki has had pretty good success against Verlander. Something like a .356 average when facing Verlander. Still, given Suzuki's stats in the playoffs, it was surprising.
Wechson posted:Dominik85 posted:PABaseball posted:Dirtbag30 posted:Seems pretty simple and apolitical to me: Astros AGM stuck his foot in it big time and publicly in a moment of jubilation. Even worse, it was on a taboo topic (domestic violence). Then the organization compounds error by (a) falsely blaming the reporter and (b) failing to admit original mistake. Thanks to a healthy dose of arrogance, the Astros turned a bad situation worse and created a huge PR nightmare/crisis for themselves,
Time to go back to PR 101, do a bigger mea culpa, and admit ALL the mistakes. Only then will this pass.
After Game 1 this "story" won't be a story anymore. So no they don't have to admit all the "mistakes". Because nobody cares and they are not going to fire a guy who helped but a world series team together.
But just tell me which is more believable?
Astros exec randomly went up to three female reporters out of nowhere and let them know how happy he is about signing the man on a night where he blew a world series clinching save? Because he's just that misogynistic?
or
Media members misinterpret comments?
I wasn't there and don't know what was said nor do I care. But how can discipline be called for when nobody knows what happens? Knowing how easily things get misinterpreted and taken out of context how can we say that he did anything wrong in the first place let alone needs to be disciplined for it? The Astros are playing in the world series tonight, there is no PR crisis.
Well the report wasn't he went there and told them how happy he was but that he was screaming it aggressively in their direction several times including using of the f word and Astros didn't deny that.
Probably wasn't meant misogynistic either but out of the emotion. Still terrible handling by the Astros PR guys, they could probably have resolved that already had they acted like it is 2019 and not like it is 1988.
Here’s an assessment from the N.Y. Post, which for those who aren’t from the NY area is the city’s conservative leaning local tabloid.
https://nypost.com/2019/10/22/...tter_impression=true
I would agree that this story won’t stay in the headlines for long, likely a 24hr cycle. But it’s clear Taubman’s remarks were intended for the female reporter, and were absolutely misogynistic. It was an immature and stupid thing to do, even in a heightened emotional moment. You’re a major executive, in a big market city, representing a top tier organization. Matters were made worse by the clubs PR response, which I guarantee will end up with someone (perhaps a team of people) being fired. It was the opposite of damage control. The only response that was appropriate, intelligent and displayed any understanding of the situation came from Hinch. This will all blow over, but it shouldn’t have happened in the first place and could have been diminished by a more professional initial response.
Aaaaand Taubman was just fired by the Astros.
Why am I not surprised......
hshuler posted:Maybe I’m crazy but I still think the Astros win the series. I never thought that last night’s game was a must-win. Now, tomorrow’s game is definitely a must win for them.
Regarding the Nats, as soon as they beat the Dodgers, I told some friends that they were going to the WS because I felt like their pitching would dominate the Cards.
As a Braves fan watching the Nats down the stretch, it was apparent that they were the one team that I don’t think any NL team wanted to get in.
I think the rest of the series will be epic but the Astros definitely have to win tomorrow.
If the Astros were up against anyone else, I would agree with you, but I have come to accept that the Nationals have been on one of those "team of destiny" rolls and cannot be stopped. At this point I don't think the '39 Yankees and the Big Red Machine combined could beat them.*
* - of course I'm trying to jinx them, as every baseball prediction I have ever made has been wrong.
https://www.si.com/mlb/2019/10...taubman-fired-astros
The Astros just fired Taubman. He obviously did something wrong. But I’m tired of people being fired for every politically incorrect thing they do. We’ve become a society that‘s turned getting offended into an art. Even though I’m a right leaning libertarian I was against forcing Al Franken to resign.
Unless there’s a track record the best solution is make the person grovel in public for an apology. Then make them do some kind of community service until they get it.
Thwre are too many males being tossed out of colleges without due process due to zero tolerance after an accusation.
RJM posted:https://www.si.com/mlb/2019/10...taubman-fired-astros
The Astros just fired Taubman. He obviously did something wrong. But I’m tired of people being fired for every politically incorrect thing they do. We’ve become a society that‘s turned getting offended into an art. Even though I’m a right leaning libertarian I was against forcing Al Franken to resign.
Unless there’s a track record the best solution is make the person grovel in public for an apology. Then make them do some kind of community service until they get it.
Thwre are too many males being tossed out of colleges without due process due to zero tolerance after an accusation.
I don't think you should try to turn Taubman into some kind of poster child for men treated unfairly. This is not a murky he-said/she-said case and there is no doubt about what happened. If I did what he did (in front of at least four witnesses, too), I'd expect to be fired. If I did what he did and compounded that by getting nationwide bad press for my employer--an employer that is in the entertainment business and relies on the public's goodwill--I'd expect to be ushered to the exit so fast that there would be a serious risk of neck injury. If the Astros had handled the aftermath differently, then maybe Taubman could have saved his job. But once they took to the barricades and witnesses started calling them out on their version of events, there was no way.
We also don't know what other incidents may be in Taubman's personnel files. Maybe this was a one-time mistake--I have no idea. But given what we know, would it surprise you if he has faced prior complaints from the women he works with? Most men would not openly taunt a group of women in a workplace setting about a domestic violence issue. I'm cynical enough to believe that if Taubman had a 97 mph fastball, he might have skated. But however talented he may be, the Astros can replace him without busting the salary cap or giving up prospects. This was a no-brainer.
I’m not making Taubman a poster child for anything. We don’t know if there’s anything else. So we have to assume not. I’m tired of the “I’m offended by words, hung the sucker” movement. Sure, he was wrong. What he said was offensive. Find an appropriate punishment short of firing.
RJM - you may be tired of it but the idea that we are ever going back to a place where we can even simply disagree about what to do about anything is quickly becoming a relic of the past. Hell we can't even agree on the facts anymore.
For example a hurricane is no longer just a hurricane - it is now - one of the most powerful storms in history due to global warming and that is all the fault of (insert any guilty party here). They should be destroyed/put out of business/fired and then tarred and feathered.
Far worse is now the "facts" are lies and you have to sift through and look for the truth. An example of this is Trump/Gabbard/Stein are Russian assets. Fully proven hogwash but about 1/2 the country is buying it.
More people need to voice your point of view and be willing to stand up and say ENOUGH to stop it - I'm with you.
Our country's future may depend upon it..
RJM posted:I’m not making Taubman a poster child for anything. We don’t know if there’s anything else. So we have to assume not. I’m tired of the “I’m offended by words, hung the sucker” movement. Sure, he was wrong. What he said was offensive. Find an appropriate punishment short of firing.
Who gets to decide how much women in the workplace are supposed to endure, or how much abuse men can engage in before firing becomes "appropriate"? The law moved to a different place than you are advocating quite a few years ago.
From the accounts I read, Taubman did a lot more than make an off-color remark; he was in others' faces and shouting. If he had tried to do the same thing to a man, he'd have been at risk of getting punched. But of course, guys like that generally prefer to single out people who aren't going to fight back--often that means they target women.
You're entitled to your opinion. We're getting pretty far into non-baseball topics here, so I'm signing off.
luv baseball posted:RJM - you may be tired of it but the idea that we are ever going back to a place where we can even simply disagree about what to do about anything is quickly becoming a relic of the past. Hell we can't even agree on the facts anymore.
For example a hurricane is no longer just a hurricane - it is now - one of the most powerful storms in history due to global warming and that is all the fault of (insert any guilty party here). They should be destroyed/put out of business/fired and then tarred and feathered.
Far worse is now the "facts" are lies and you have to sift through and look for the truth. An example of this is Trump/Gabbard/Stein are Russian assets. Fully proven hogwash but about 1/2 the country is buying it.
More people need to voice your point of view and be willing to stand up and say ENOUGH to stop it - I'm with you.
Our country's future may depend upon it..
Can we stick with baseball? I'm guilty of straying beyond that subject here, too--I should have known better. I value the discussions here very much, and value the chance to NOT talk about politics.
@RJM - The bottom line is he is a high level executive at a public, media facing organization. What he said was unnecessary and put his employer in a highly unfavorable position. When you do that, if the stakes are high enough, you get fired. Pretty open/shut, and IMO not reflective of anything more societally macro than that.
@luvbaseball - I won't get into the Trump/Gabbard/Stein comment, as that's clearly coming from a hyper partisan perspective. However, Hurricanes and climate change actually aren't. That's as fact based as you can get (other than doctoring a map). I have a close friend who runs an insurance business for high net worth clients, and he basically goes around the country assessing damage done by climate change. His data, his words, and ultimately the money of his clients. All very straight forward and apolitical, so simply suggesting you use a better example next time in trying to prove your point.
In the words of Forrest Gump, that's all I have to say about that. Back to baseball.
RJM posted:https://www.si.com/mlb/2019/10...taubman-fired-astros
The Astros just fired Taubman. He obviously did something wrong. But I’m tired of people being fired for every politically incorrect thing they do. We’ve become a society that‘s turned getting offended into an art. Even though I’m a right leaning libertarian I was against forcing Al Franken to resign.
Unless there’s a track record the best solution is make the person grovel in public for an apology. Then make them do some kind of community service until they get it.
Thwre are too many males being tossed out of colleges without due process due to zero tolerance after an accusation.
I think taubman was fired ultimately due to the terrible reactions by crane and luhnow.
What he did was bad but if the astros hadn't tried to spin this "fake news media try to spin something against us" tactics they could have moved on. The astros reaction was in the end a bigger story than taubman's action and the Astros felt the only way to quiet down the situation was to sacrifice taubman.
I can understand that people feel that "PC zealots killed him" thing but the thing that ruined it was that the astros questioned the media credibility, they should have known that journalists stand together if you do that.
More than a story about PC media and a guy saying something wrong this is a story about very bad PR strategy that went terribly wrong and in the end taubman needed to be sacrificed to create peace and not affect player focus.
Dominik85 posted:RJM posted:https://www.si.com/mlb/2019/10...taubman-fired-astros
The Astros just fired Taubman. He obviously did something wrong. But I’m tired of people being fired for every politically incorrect thing they do. We’ve become a society that‘s turned getting offended into an art. Even though I’m a right leaning libertarian I was against forcing Al Franken to resign.
Unless there’s a track record the best solution is make the person grovel in public for an apology. Then make them do some kind of community service until they get it.
Thwre are too many males being tossed out of colleges without due process due to zero tolerance after an accusation.
I think taubman was fired ultimately due to the terrible reactions by crane and luhnow.
What he did was bad but if the astros hadn't tried to spin this "fake news media try to spin something against us" tactics they could have moved on. The astros reaction was in the end a bigger story than taubman's action and the Astros felt the only way to quiet down the situation was to sacrifice taubman.
I can understand that people feel that "PC zealots killed him" thing but the thing that ruined it was that the astros questioned the media credibility, they should have known that journalists stand together if you do that.
More than a story about PC media and a guy saying something wrong this is a story about very bad PR strategy that went terribly wrong and in the end taubman needed to be sacrificed to create peace and not affect player focus.
1000% correct
Dominik85 posted:More than a story about PC media and a guy saying something wrong this is a story about very bad PR strategy that went terribly wrong and in the end taubman needed to be sacrificed to create peace and not affect player focus.
There's a hint of familiarity here. Lol
fenwaysouth posted:There is an old saying in baseball that great pitching, great defense and timely hitting trumps all. This is what the Nationals have done throughout the playoffs against "better teams on paper". Love it when old sayings are true. When I look at this objectively, Verlander kept them in the game and went toe to toe with Strasburg throughout the game. They were on a similar pitch count and both settled down after a rough first inning. However, then Nats defense was much better. The Astros defense was exposed for poor judgement. Bregman knows he has to hold that infield hit ball which led two more runs and opened the flood gates because of an errant throw to first. Okay Verlander gave up the go ahead to Suzuki but that is just one run and you've got to be disciplined with decisions to keep your team in the game. The Astros just looked sloppy, and they didn't know what to do because they've never been in that position before. The Astros dug themselves a hole and their bats couldn't get them out....so much for timely hitting.
There were glimpse of the Nats playing this well during the season, but nothing like the streak they are on now. The Nats are my national league team and I follow them pretty closely. The Astros just look lost and they are trying to blast themselves out of this offensive funk. This is playing right into the Nats hands.
As always, JMO.
Nats had 2 errors though. Both are feeling the pressure. The Nats bat came through, but Houston's bats are pretty amazing and all the core 6 guys have proven to be clutch one time or another. I really enjoyed the pitching though. Verlander vs Strasburg. That's like Nolan Ryan vs Roger Clemens back in the day. Verlander was one of the first modern pitchers to throw 99 consistently and Strasburg was probably supposed to be the greatest phenom ever. It was a great battle until the Nats broke it open against the pen.
Personally , I think the real story is that the Taubman controversy has killed the Astros mojo. Best thing about the game are the intangible elements to winning. Its about atmosphere and team chemistry. One little Bryce Harper in the cog and ...
In all of this excitement.... I forgot to mention the poor Altuve decision to try to steal third with the big bats coming up. Astros are forcing this, and trying to do too much. Why steal third when you have your big boppers at the plate and coming up, and you're already in scoring position. It was one of the worst decisions in this series and it cost the Astros mojo, momentum and a chance to score.
I can't wait for tonight's game!
I never thought of the Nationals as underdogs in this series. They started the year so bad, but they also started the year without their full team healthy and playing. So, we have to take that 107 wins for Astros vs 93 for Nationals with a grain of salt. Since May 24 when the Nationals became whole, they actually have a better record and statistics. Unless the Astros can get into the Nationals' bullpen early tonight and pull off the win, this series is setting up for a sweep. And it would not be a total surprise to many baseball observers.
EastCO posted:Personally , I think the real story is that the Taubman controversy has killed the Astros mojo. Best thing about the game are the intangible elements to winning. Its about atmosphere and team chemistry. One little Bryce Harper in the cog and ...
I guess this is a chat board, so you can write anything you want.
The Nationals have played better. An asst GM you never heard of before isn't Bryce Harper in the locker room.
Go44dad posted:EastCO posted:Personally , I think the real story is that the Taubman controversy has killed the Astros mojo. Best thing about the game are the intangible elements to winning. Its about atmosphere and team chemistry. One little Bryce Harper in the cog and ...
I guess this is a chat board, so you can write anything you want.
The Nationals have played better. An asst GM you never heard of before isn't Bryce Harper in the locker room.
Haha. Actually its an American chat board, so yes... I get to write my opinions just like you. But I dont underestimate the role of internal and external factors in team play. Baby shark shark shark shark.
Astros won a game they needed to win, and played much better last night. They got the timely hits.
Couldn't help noticing (I'm not blind!) the umpire had a whimsical strike zone last night. It seemed to me that both starting pitchers were getting squeezed on borderline calls, but Sanchez moreso. It seemed like the strike zone opened up when the relievers came in. I couldn't help wondering how often MLB umpire have their eyesight checked.
BTW...Greinke is the reason why a pitching clock is needed. Freaking ridiculous.
Fenway, before I would buy Sox tickets I would chart out when Buchholz was scheduled to pitch and avoid it. Even at home you could make a kitchen run between pitches.
fenwaysouth posted:BTW...Greinke is the reason why a pitching clock is needed. Freaking ridiculous.
Chapman was worse; he seemed so slow I started timing him, he was 26-36 seconds between pitches. Greinke seemed slow, so I got to timing him last night too, but he really was mostly just 20-25 seconds most pitches.
With these slow pitchers, the t.v. cuts to a shot of the crowd, then the dugout, then the manager, then close-up of the batter, then pitcher, all while waiting for the next pitch. It's really annoying.
Around 11:30 last night I was wistfully recalling a 1-0 Mets game I attended this past season. It went 2:10. The only run was a Syndergaard HR. It could have gone under two hours had the Reds not made a couple of pointless late pitching changes.
Astros have turned the series around, wouldn't surprise me if the win in 6 now.
Dominik85 posted:Astros have turned the series around, wouldn't surprise me if the win in 6 now.
Not so fast. Astros have turned two games around...yes I can count at the advanced age of 57. Series is still tied and a toss up. One game at a time Dominik85. Let's see what Mr Scherzer and Mr Cole have to say tonight at 8:07pm EST in a battle of real freaking aces. Love me a pitchers duel and we all might get to bed before midnight!
Enjoy!
fenwaysouth posted:Dominik85 posted:Astros have turned the series around, wouldn't surprise me if the win in 6 now.
Not so fast. Astros have turned two games around...yes I can count at the advanced age of 57. Series is still tied and a toss up. One game at a time Dominik85. Let's see what Mr Scherzer and Mr Cole have to say tonight at 8:07pm EST in a battle of real freaking aces. Love me a pitchers duel and we all might get to bed before midnight!
Enjoy!
Like, forget football today let’s just get to it. Two of the best in the game pitching in the biggest game of their life.
Attachments
Images (1)