MLB umpiring incompetency strikes again

BLOWN CALL YET AGAIN.

I would expect nothing less.

Had to be scary with Thome up there after the call.

You'd think that with SIX umpires, including umps down each line, that they'd be in a good position to make that call. I'm sure that crew is relieved that Thome followed that call up with a P-5, had he gone yard it would have been a terrible mess!

quote:

Originally posted by bsbl247:
You'd think that with SIX umpires, including umps down each line, that they'd be in a good position to make that call. I'm sure that crew is relieved that Thome followed that call up with a P-5, had he gone yard it would have been a terrible mess!

One of the challenges of the six man rotation, is that they don't normally have six so it some times confuses them as to who has what responsibility for various situations.

HR04,

I understand what your saying in regards to assignments within their rotation. But, this was a sinking line drive to RF and the "Extra Blue" down that line "Should" have been in the right position to make the correct call. Luckily, as zombywoof stated, Rivera bailed him out by retiring Thome.

quote:

Originally posted by Homerun04:

One of the challenges of the six man rotation, is that they don't normally have six so it some times confuses them as to who has what responsibility for various situations.

I wasn't going to pile on the umps but this comment made me think...

This wasn't one of those situations where the home plate umpire runs down to cover third and the first base umpire moves to home plate.

This was a fly ball that couldn't have been much more than 50' away from the right field umpire. AND all six of them got together, talked about it and still, none of them saw the catch.

I didn't look at it as a confusing situation...just a missed call.

I was just trying to be nice, I seem to remember two umpires turning and looking at the play, but missing the call in front of them.

Was it last year in the playoffs, there was a ball down the 3b foul line that the umpires missed and they blamed it on the six man crew?

At the risk of being accused of "covering" for the umpire or "just sticking together", my observations:

1. As an evaluator, my primary concern, after the fact, is WHY the error was made. The umpire has more than adquate vision...so WHY did he miss the call. I did not see the play and haven't found a replay so far. If anyone has a URL, please post it.

I am not doubting the error or it's obvious nature. I'd just like to see if I can determine how such an errr was made.

2. I think "incompetent" is an over-the-top and inflammatory description. Mistakes are made by everyone who are not necessarily incompetent at their jobs. One of my physicians screwed up and wrote a prescription for the wrong drug for me. He is an otherwise excellent surgeon, one of the best around. I wouldn't accuse him of being incompetent. I did accuse him of making a mistake.

quote:

Originally posted by Homerun04:
I was just trying to be nice, I seem to remember two umpires turning and looking at the play, but missing the call in front of them.

Was it last year in the playoffs, there was a ball down the 3b foul line that the umpires missed and they blamed it on the six man crew?

Not seeing the play, I can't say if the six man crew had anything to do with this error. But six man crews are worthless at best and often cause confusion. They effect rotations and responsibilities of all the 4 primary umpires. Many if not most ML umpires will admit this individually. However, collectively, (union-wise, that is) it would be hard for them to admit it and give up the 14 post season spots.

I saw the game but I'm still not sure who made the initial call... the guy on the line would not have had a good view of it. I would think the 2b ump would have had the best look because he's looking at the ball entering the glove (or home plate ump)...
Dad gummed Mariano made it a mute point that's for sure the way that guy mows down hitters in October.

quote:

Originally posted by trojan-skipper:
I saw the game but I'm still not sure who made the initial call... the guy on the line would not have had a good view of it. I would think the 2b ump would have had the best look because he's looking at the ball entering the glove (or home plate ump)...
Dad gummed Mariano made it a mute point that's for sure the way that guy mows down hitters in October.

It looked like the right field umpire who was a few feet behind the first base umpire when the play started. Both he and the 1bU turned toward the play which was in shallow right field.

It was a close call, the ball looked like it may have been trapped especially since the ball could be seen very clearly after he made the catch when he repositioned it, after he took a step. After several angles of replay, it was clear that he did in fact make the catch.

Is this the missed call on www.mlb.mlb.com
under Must C: Clutch

www.mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp...id=14871220&c_id=mlb

Try this for the replay

It was the right field umpire who made the call....just a playoff rookie mistake.

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:
At the risk of being accused of "covering" for the umpire or "just sticking together", my observations:

1. As an evaluator, my primary concern, after the fact, is WHY the error was made. The umpire has more than adquate vision...so WHY did he miss the call. I did not see the play and haven't found a replay so far. If anyone has a URL, please post it.

I am not doubting the error or it's obvious nature. I'd just like to see if I can determine how such an errr was made.

2. I think "incompetent" is an over-the-top and inflammatory description. Mistakes are made by everyone who are not necessarily incompetent at their jobs. One of my physicians screwed up and wrote a prescription for the wrong drug for me. He is an otherwise excellent surgeon, one of the best around. I wouldn't accuse him of being incompetent. I did accuse him of making a mistake.

Since I have been seen as being "harsh" towards the umpires, i'll respond to that. I totally agree, those are 6 of the best at the world at their jobs and i'm sure none of them feel good about screwing up so obviously on national television and risk having the "wrong team" win the game.

It's more your signature deal at the bottom of your posts that I find condescending...obviously a shot at trhit and a way to cover up complaints about a bad strike zone.

bsballfaN

Don't worry about Jimmy03 and his sniping

I wonder if he is watching the Rays game where the umps just blew another call

What call did the umps blow just now in the Rays game? Please don't tell me you think that check swing was a blown call...... If you're talking about the coach's starting pitching decision for the Rays, you're right...blown call.

The check swing was a SWING but then you are from Texas !!!!!

And I am rooting for the Rangers

It was close, but hardly a clear/blown call. Did you see where he was in the box? His left foot was barely to the corner. He didn't even cross the plate with that check swing.

No doubt I'm a Ranger fan, but I'm a fan of "good" baseball. Right now, the Rays are not playing good baseball. Shields makes a wild pick, totally falls off the mound during delivery, Bartlett one hops a routine throw from SS... And, Qualls serves up a waist high fastball to Young, regardless of the check swing. Like I said yesterday, I think the Rays are in real trouble.

Not sure what the Rays were thinking when they set their rotation, but Shields never looked comfortable. Even in yesterdays game, he paced like a caged cat.

Shields was 13-15 with a 5.18 ERA. In 203 1/3 innings he gave up 246 hits, 34 homers and 117 earned runs. Over his final 11 starts, he was 3-6 with a 6.68 ERA and 12 homers in just 61 innings.

That's simply bad decision making by Maddon.

GED10DaD

quote:

Many if not most ML umpires will admit this individually. However, collectively, (union-wise, that is) it would be hard for them to admit it and give up the 14 post season spots.

Because of course the union is more important than getting things right..

quote:

Originally posted by bsballfan:

It's more your signature deal at the bottom of your posts that I find condescending...obviously a shot at trhit and a way to cover up complaints about a bad strike zone.

Wow. Another gentlemen into generalizing about things of which he knows little.

Obviously a way to cover up a bad strike zone? Really? How many of my games have you seen?

I get d@mn few complaints abut my strike zone whether working college or high school varsity.
I am proud that I haven't had an ejection over balls and strikes for a long time. But that doesn't matter to you because you possess the ability to determine my zone from a signature line. I am impressed.

Truth be known I combined TR's sig with a quote by a former MiLB player who was coaching a select team this summer. He was complaining that too many of the kids were looking for walks and not swinging at borderline strikes.

I felt TR's sig was an honest statement about young players and that the coach's statement was equally honest and could be displayed similarly. If you have a problem with that, put in writing and submit it in triplicate. I'll make sure those who care get a copy.

Thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by Homerun04:

One of the challenges of the six man rotation, is that they don't normally have six so it some times confuses them as to who has what responsibility for various situations.

You mean all six of those umps missed that call?

Hate to tell ya but that's a weak argument if playing devils advocate in the umpire's defense.

Somebody should've got that call overturned.

Maybe none of them had the stones to do it because if all six missed the call, then these umps are far more incompetent than I thought.

Quote from article:
Rivera said that "it is just part of the game," and that "you just have to get the next guy."

Why don't you all just try to enjoy and let the players take care of business?

Geesh, enough is enough already.

Well the Twins fans are happy with the umpires!

If I'm not mistaken MLB gave up years ago evaluating imps and assigning the best to play offs. Instead the unions assign the umps. It's like allowing the cubs to be in the play offs because it's their turn. This is why things are so bad and the answer isn't instant replay but getting the best on the field. Blame the union.

They are the best in the business doing the best job they can do. They are not perfect. They will never be perfect. If your expecting perfection from a human or anything controlled by a human expect to be let down.

Missed calls are part of the game. They have always been part of the game. All of us have been around the game long enough to understand this. You get some your opponent gets some. Its just the way it is.

Coach of course you're right but it simply would be nice to have the top evaluated umps out there. I think these teams earned it. Otherwise the argument begins to sound like the teachers union- ie they're all good, get over it.

quote:

Originally posted by igball:
Coach of course you're right but it simply would be nice to have the top evaluated umps out there. I think these teams earned it. Otherwise the argument begins to sound like the teachers union- ie they're all good, get over it.

So, you know the umpires selected for the Division Series (six of whom will also work the world series) and the League Series are not the best. Care to share with us those who are?

I've seen these silly discussions on this board and don't try it with me. The point is, and I guess you can figure it out, that currently unions demand every umpire no matter how bad, gets a chance to umpire post season. It used to be based on objective evaluations.
The current system is a lot like this message board, a lot of very talented people with a few knuckleheads thrown in.

Personally I feel the checked swing is a tough call anytime unless you can see it from a couple of angles which we can on the replays. Qualls threw a pitch right down the pipe after that. If he just avoids grooving the pitch it wouldn't have been a big deal but he couldn't execute two pitches in a row. Look I'm hard on umpires on missed calls like the one in the Yankee ninth, but I think people are going a little overboard sniping at the least mistake by an umpire when we've already seen some almost idiotic decisions by managers and at least one organization(Tampa Bay) in their roster make up.

quote:

Originally posted by igball:
I've seen these silly discussions on this board and don't try it with me. The point is, and I guess you can figure it out, that currently unions demand every umpire no matter how bad,

That's not in the CBA...strike two.

Stung by a series of missed calls during the playoffs, management sought increased flexibility on postseason assignments in the new agreement. MLB asked that the prohibition be lifted against umpires working the World Series in consecutive years, a request that some of the union membership had trouble with.

Heard the commentators complaining about the pitch in the 7th before Berkman hit the double. They said it was over the plate. Gameday showed the pitch was marginal at best. It also showed that the umpire's strike zone was biased toward the outside on lefties and that hitters (and pitchers) should have made that adjustment by that point in the game. As a hitter or a pitcher you learn the umpire's zone and play to that zone.

quote:

Originally posted by CADad:
Heard the commentators complaining about the pitch in the 7th before Berkman hit the double. They said it was over the plate. Gameday showed the pitch was marginal at best. It also showed that the umpire's strike zone was biased toward the outside on lefties and that hitters (and pitchers) should have made that adjustment by that point in the game. As a hitter or a pitcher you learn the umpire's zone and play to that zone.

I had noticed the same thing on the first two strike calls to Berkman, they appeared to be well off the plate (assuming that TBS Pitch Trax is accurate?). Adjustments should have been made by both teams, especially by the 5th inning? Wendlestadt seemed to be consistent with his zone...you still gotta love Gardenhire, there's no doubt he's a "Players Coach"!

quote:

Originally posted by igball:
Stung by a series of missed calls during the playoffs, management sought increased flexibility on postseason assignments in the new agreement. MLB asked that the prohibition be lifted against umpires working the World Series in consecutive years, a request that some of the union membership had trouble with.

The evolution of divisions has contributed to the issue. Seven crews are now needed to work the post season. Choosing WS umpires from the Division crews allows the seventh crew to come from the first four.

Still, six crews, or 36 umpires are needed for post season. That's over half of the umpires. You can't limit post season to the top 10% when you need 55% to cover spots.

You do realize that teams have input into post season umpire assignments don't you?

Oh yea, they blew the call on the Giant's Posey @ second base, which was the only run scored in the game.

If they are good enough to umpire the games that decide who will be in the playoffs they should be good enough to call the playoffs as well.

So much focus on the umpires and every call that is marginal or missed takes away from the game. They are not perfect. They never have been and they never will be. If your going to use instant replay on every call, if your going to scrutinize every pitch call then get rid of the umpires and let machines and video call the games. Take the umpires completely out of the game at the ML level. And change the game forever.

Umpires have been a part of the game since it first started being played. Questionable calls, marginal calls, missed calls have always been a part of the game. Yes we want them to get it right. Yes we want them to do the best job they can do. But I do not expect them to be perfect. Some people it seems expect them to be perfect. They never have been and they never will be.

What is the answer? If your not going to come to grips with the fact they are human and will make mistakes then you have to be in favor of total replay. How much fun is that going to be for you? Every call at every base is decided by replay. Every call on every pitch is decided by some type of machine. Maybe thats where it will lead to eventually. Maybe 20 or 30 years down the road umpires at the ML level will no longer exist on the field. They will simply sit in a booth and hit a swith to indicate safe or out , ball or strike once the play or pitch has been reviewed by video. I hope I never see it.

Ok so Posey on super slo motion picture stopped high definition is CLEARLY out rather than safe. How could he miss that when in real time when you go from tag to contact is probably less than half a second, he got tagged in the waist / stomach area?

Let's approach this from another angle - I guarantee you that the vast majority of umpires would miss this call because it's not a simple play. You got the fielder drifting towards the right side, a high tag and a split second tag / contact with bag. This call would be missed the vast majority of the time. If you want perfection then stop getting onto the umps because this "blown" call doesn't come down to ability or incompetency - it comes down to ability of the human eye being able to call this play. Did anybody think he was safe until they showed the replay?

Now let's think about it like this - if you get one challenge as a manager would you use it on this play when it was that early in the game? This is a tough call because you got two pitchers flat out dominating and you know this call could be huge but on the other hand with great pitching the close plays might be at the end of the game. So - would you use your one challenge on this play? I don't think I would because I would want to save it for late in the game but you may be different.

The obvious solution is give each team two or three challenges but what happens if this type of play happens three or four times? Replay really isn't a solution because no matter how you do it there will always be more questions created from it.

Everyone watch a college and pro game and notice how many missed calls are unclear even with replay.

Yeah Posey scored later in the inning but it was Tim Lincecum who won that game. The umps didn't lose that game for the Braves - Lincecum won that game with his pitching.

quote:

Originally posted by bsbl247:
(assuming that TBS Pitch Trax is accurate?).

My opinions is no, it is not accurate. All it does is bring negative focus to the ump calling the game. I personally think it's bad for baseball since it stirs a pot that really doesn't need it.

Does baseball really need a device that begs the public to be mad at the ump for what a computer claims is blown calls?