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MLB umpiring incompetency strikes again

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H Homerun041,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by bsbl247:
You'd think that with SIX umpires, including umps down each line, that they'd be in a good position to make that call. I'm sure that crew is relieved that Thome followed that call up with a P-5, had he gone yard it would have been a terrible mess!


One of the challenges of the six man rotation, is that they don't normally have six so it some times confuses them as to who has what responsibility for various situations.
biggerpapibiggerpapi5,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Homerun04:

One of the challenges of the six man rotation, is that they don't normally have six so it some times confuses them as to who has what responsibility for various situations.


I wasn't going to pile on the umps but this comment made me think...

This wasn't one of those situations where the home plate umpire runs down to cover third and the first base umpire moves to home plate.

This was a fly ball that couldn't have been much more than 50' away from the right field umpire. AND all six of them got together, talked about it and still, none of them saw the catch.

I didn't look at it as a confusing situation...just a missed call.
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
At the risk of being accused of "covering" for the umpire or "just sticking together", my observations:

1. As an evaluator, my primary concern, after the fact, is WHY the error was made. The umpire has more than adquate vision...so WHY did he miss the call. I did not see the play and haven't found a replay so far. If anyone has a URL, please post it.

I am not doubting the error or it's obvious nature. I'd just like to see if I can determine how such an errr was made.

2. I think "incompetent" is an over-the-top and inflammatory description. Mistakes are made by everyone who are not necessarily incompetent at their jobs. One of my physicians screwed up and wrote a prescription for the wrong drug for me. He is an otherwise excellent surgeon, one of the best around. I wouldn't accuse him of being incompetent. I did accuse him of making a mistake.
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Homerun04:
I was just trying to be nice, I seem to remember two umpires turning and looking at the play, but missing the call in front of them.

Was it last year in the playoffs, there was a ball down the 3b foul line that the umpires missed and they blamed it on the six man crew?


Not seeing the play, I can't say if the six man crew had anything to do with this error. But six man crews are worthless at best and often cause confusion. They effect rotations and responsibilities of all the 4 primary umpires. Many if not most ML umpires will admit this individually. However, collectively, (union-wise, that is) it would be hard for them to admit it and give up the 14 post season spots.
trojan-skippertrojan-skipper1,000+ posts
I saw the game but I'm still not sure who made the initial call... the guy on the line would not have had a good view of it. I would think the 2b ump would have had the best look because he's looking at the ball entering the glove (or home plate ump)...
Dad gummed Mariano made it a mute point that's for sure the way that guy mows down hitters in October.
H Homerun041,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by trojan-skipper:
I saw the game but I'm still not sure who made the initial call... the guy on the line would not have had a good view of it. I would think the 2b ump would have had the best look because he's looking at the ball entering the glove (or home plate ump)...
Dad gummed Mariano made it a mute point that's for sure the way that guy mows down hitters in October.


It looked like the right field umpire who was a few feet behind the first base umpire when the play started. Both he and the 1bU turned toward the play which was in shallow right field.

It was a close call, the ball looked like it may have been trapped especially since the ball could be seen very clearly after he made the catch when he repositioned it, after he took a step. After several angles of replay, it was clear that he did in fact make the catch.
Last edited by Homerun04
B bsballfan100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy03:
At the risk of being accused of "covering" for the umpire or "just sticking together", my observations:

1. As an evaluator, my primary concern, after the fact, is WHY the error was made. The umpire has more than adquate vision...so WHY did he miss the call. I did not see the play and haven't found a replay so far. If anyone has a URL, please post it.

I am not doubting the error or it's obvious nature. I'd just like to see if I can determine how such an errr was made.

2. I think "incompetent" is an over-the-top and inflammatory description. Mistakes are made by everyone who are not necessarily incompetent at their jobs. One of my physicians screwed up and wrote a prescription for the wrong drug for me. He is an otherwise excellent surgeon, one of the best around. I wouldn't accuse him of being incompetent. I did accuse him of making a mistake.


Since I have been seen as being "harsh" towards the umpires, i'll respond to that. I totally agree, those are 6 of the best at the world at their jobs and i'm sure none of them feel good about screwing up so obviously on national television and risk having the "wrong team" win the game.

It's more your signature deal at the bottom of your posts that I find condescending...obviously a shot at trhit and a way to cover up complaints about a bad strike zone.
GunEmDown10GunEmDown101,000+ posts
No doubt I'm a Ranger fan, but I'm a fan of "good" baseball. Right now, the Rays are not playing good baseball. Shields makes a wild pick, totally falls off the mound during delivery, Bartlett one hops a routine throw from SS... And, Qualls serves up a waist high fastball to Young, regardless of the check swing. Like I said yesterday, I think the Rays are in real trouble.

Not sure what the Rays were thinking when they set their rotation, but Shields never looked comfortable. Even in yesterdays game, he paced like a caged cat.

Shields was 13-15 with a 5.18 ERA. In 203 1/3 innings he gave up 246 hits, 34 homers and 117 earned runs. Over his final 11 starts, he was 3-6 with a 6.68 ERA and 12 homers in just 61 innings.

That's simply bad decision making by Maddon.

GED10DaD
Last edited by GunEmDown10
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by bsballfan:

It's more your signature deal at the bottom of your posts that I find condescending...obviously a shot at trhit and a way to cover up complaints about a bad strike zone.


Wow. Another gentlemen into generalizing about things of which he knows little.

Obviously a way to cover up a bad strike zone? Really? How many of my games have you seen?

I get d@mn few complaints abut my strike zone whether working college or high school varsity.
I am proud that I haven't had an ejection over balls and strikes for a long time. But that doesn't matter to you because you possess the ability to determine my zone from a signature line. I am impressed.

Truth be known I combined TR's sig with a quote by a former MiLB player who was coaching a select team this summer. He was complaining that too many of the kids were looking for walks and not swinging at borderline strikes.

I felt TR's sig was an honest statement about young players and that the coach's statement was equally honest and could be displayed similarly. If you have a problem with that, put in writing and submit it in triplicate. I'll make sure those who care get a copy.

Thanks.
Last edited by Jimmy03
zombywoofzombywoof1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Homerun04:

One of the challenges of the six man rotation, is that they don't normally have six so it some times confuses them as to who has what responsibility for various situations.


You mean all six of those umps missed that call?

Hate to tell ya but that's a weak argument if playing devils advocate in the umpire's defense.

Somebody should've got that call overturned.

Maybe none of them had the stones to do it because if all six missed the call, then these umps are far more incompetent than I thought.
Last edited by zombywoof
igballigball500+ posts
If I'm not mistaken MLB gave up years ago evaluating imps and assigning the best to play offs. Instead the unions assign the umps. It's like allowing the cubs to be in the play offs because it's their turn. This is why things are so bad and the answer isn't instant replay but getting the best on the field. Blame the union.
Coach_MayCoach_May10,000+ posts
They are the best in the business doing the best job they can do. They are not perfect. They will never be perfect. If your expecting perfection from a human or anything controlled by a human expect to be let down.

Missed calls are part of the game. They have always been part of the game. All of us have been around the game long enough to understand this. You get some your opponent gets some. Its just the way it is.
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by igball:
Coach of course you're right but it simply would be nice to have the top evaluated umps out there. I think these teams earned it. Otherwise the argument begins to sound like the teachers union- ie they're all good, get over it.


So, you know the umpires selected for the Division Series (six of whom will also work the world series) and the League Series are not the best. Care to share with us those who are?
igballigball500+ posts
I've seen these silly discussions on this board and don't try it with me. The point is, and I guess you can figure it out, that currently unions demand every umpire no matter how bad, gets a chance to umpire post season. It used to be based on objective evaluations.
The current system is a lot like this message board, a lot of very talented people with a few knuckleheads thrown in.
Three BaggerThree Bagger1,000+ posts
Personally I feel the checked swing is a tough call anytime unless you can see it from a couple of angles which we can on the replays. Qualls threw a pitch right down the pipe after that. If he just avoids grooving the pitch it wouldn't have been a big deal but he couldn't execute two pitches in a row. Look I'm hard on umpires on missed calls like the one in the Yankee ninth, but I think people are going a little overboard sniping at the least mistake by an umpire when we've already seen some almost idiotic decisions by managers and at least one organization(Tampa Bay) in their roster make up.
igballigball500+ posts
Stung by a series of missed calls during the playoffs, management sought increased flexibility on postseason assignments in the new agreement. MLB asked that the prohibition be lifted against umpires working the World Series in consecutive years, a request that some of the union membership had trouble with.
CADadCADad5,000+ posts
Heard the commentators complaining about the pitch in the 7th before Berkman hit the double. They said it was over the plate. Gameday showed the pitch was marginal at best. It also showed that the umpire's strike zone was biased toward the outside on lefties and that hitters (and pitchers) should have made that adjustment by that point in the game. As a hitter or a pitcher you learn the umpire's zone and play to that zone.
Last edited by CADad
bsbl247bsbl2471,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by CADad:
Heard the commentators complaining about the pitch in the 7th before Berkman hit the double. They said it was over the plate. Gameday showed the pitch was marginal at best. It also showed that the umpire's strike zone was biased toward the outside on lefties and that hitters (and pitchers) should have made that adjustment by that point in the game. As a hitter or a pitcher you learn the umpire's zone and play to that zone.


I had noticed the same thing on the first two strike calls to Berkman, they appeared to be well off the plate (assuming that TBS Pitch Trax is accurate?). Adjustments should have been made by both teams, especially by the 5th inning? Wendlestadt seemed to be consistent with his zone...you still gotta love Gardenhire, there's no doubt he's a "Players Coach"!
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by igball:
Stung by a series of missed calls during the playoffs, management sought increased flexibility on postseason assignments in the new agreement. MLB asked that the prohibition be lifted against umpires working the World Series in consecutive years, a request that some of the union membership had trouble with.


The evolution of divisions has contributed to the issue. Seven crews are now needed to work the post season. Choosing WS umpires from the Division crews allows the seventh crew to come from the first four.

Still, six crews, or 36 umpires are needed for post season. That's over half of the umpires. You can't limit post season to the top 10% when you need 55% to cover spots.

You do realize that teams have input into post season umpire assignments don't you?
Last edited by Jimmy03
Coach_MayCoach_May10,000+ posts
If they are good enough to umpire the games that decide who will be in the playoffs they should be good enough to call the playoffs as well.

So much focus on the umpires and every call that is marginal or missed takes away from the game. They are not perfect. They never have been and they never will be. If your going to use instant replay on every call, if your going to scrutinize every pitch call then get rid of the umpires and let machines and video call the games. Take the umpires completely out of the game at the ML level. And change the game forever.

Umpires have been a part of the game since it first started being played. Questionable calls, marginal calls, missed calls have always been a part of the game. Yes we want them to get it right. Yes we want them to do the best job they can do. But I do not expect them to be perfect. Some people it seems expect them to be perfect. They never have been and they never will be.

What is the answer? If your not going to come to grips with the fact they are human and will make mistakes then you have to be in favor of total replay. How much fun is that going to be for you? Every call at every base is decided by replay. Every call on every pitch is decided by some type of machine. Maybe thats where it will lead to eventually. Maybe 20 or 30 years down the road umpires at the ML level will no longer exist on the field. They will simply sit in a booth and hit a swith to indicate safe or out , ball or strike once the play or pitch has been reviewed by video. I hope I never see it.
coach2709coach270910,000+ posts
Ok so Posey on super slo motion picture stopped high definition is CLEARLY out rather than safe. How could he miss that when in real time when you go from tag to contact is probably less than half a second, he got tagged in the waist / stomach area?

Let's approach this from another angle - I guarantee you that the vast majority of umpires would miss this call because it's not a simple play. You got the fielder drifting towards the right side, a high tag and a split second tag / contact with bag. This call would be missed the vast majority of the time. If you want perfection then stop getting onto the umps because this "blown" call doesn't come down to ability or incompetency - it comes down to ability of the human eye being able to call this play. Did anybody think he was safe until they showed the replay?

Now let's think about it like this - if you get one challenge as a manager would you use it on this play when it was that early in the game? This is a tough call because you got two pitchers flat out dominating and you know this call could be huge but on the other hand with great pitching the close plays might be at the end of the game. So - would you use your one challenge on this play? I don't think I would because I would want to save it for late in the game but you may be different.

The obvious solution is give each team two or three challenges but what happens if this type of play happens three or four times? Replay really isn't a solution because no matter how you do it there will always be more questions created from it.

Everyone watch a college and pro game and notice how many missed calls are unclear even with replay.

Yeah Posey scored later in the inning but it was Tim Lincecum who won that game. The umps didn't lose that game for the Braves - Lincecum won that game with his pitching.
CPLZCPLZ1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by bsbl247:
(assuming that TBS Pitch Trax is accurate?).

My opinions is no, it is not accurate. All it does is bring negative focus to the ump calling the game. I personally think it's bad for baseball since it stirs a pot that really doesn't need it.

Does baseball really need a device that begs the public to be mad at the ump for what a computer claims is blown calls?
Last edited by CPLZ
TRhitTRhit10,000+ posts
Personally, I think that it is a sad state of affairs that the major topic of discussion during the playoffs has been the umpiring not the baseball action.

When you have announcers, internet, newspapers and fans talking as they are it certainly tells me something.

Even my wife last night asked me what was wrong with the umpires

I don't think we need replay---we need better umpires--umpires who need to be seen and not heard !
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Bear:
Is it acceptable for the Major League Umpires to tank four calls per game?

The math geeks in my network say the umpires claim to get 99% of the calls correct. They tell me that is four calls per game that are incorrect.

WoW.


Never heard that claim. Studies have indicated that the figure is closer to 95%.
biggerpapibiggerpapi5,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Bear:
Is it acceptable for the Major League Umpires to tank four calls per game?

The math geeks in my network say the umpires claim to get 99% of the calls correct. They tell me that is four calls per game that are incorrect.

WoW.



This would imply there are 400 calls per game. Even counting pitches, that's a lot of calls. And I don't think that missing a strike by an inch is the same as not calling Buster Posey out on his steal last night.

Which brings me to this...are there really that many MORE missed calls or is everything magnified today with 24-hour coverage on ESPN, MLB Network, internet sites, etc?

Kind of like 24-hour news stations. There probably isn't such a huge increase in certain events, it's just that there are cameras everywhere today.
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by biggerpapi:
This would imply there are 400 calls per game. Even counting pitches, that's a lot of calls. And I don't think that missing a strike by an inch is the same as not calling Buster Posey out on his steal last night.

Which brings me to this...are there really that many MORE missed calls or is everything magnified today with 24-hour coverage on ESPN, MLB Network, internet sites, etc?

Kind of like 24-hour news stations. There probably isn't such a huge increase in certain events, it's just that there are cameras everywhere today.


You are on the right track. Allow me to place a post I made in umpire section here:

Today's cadre of ML umpires have been castigated as incompetent, lazy and unworthy of working the sport. I've given this a lot of thought lately as I've spent a lot time over the past six summers watching and apeaking with MiLB and MLB umpires. I also have spent considerable time watching film from the 50's. 60's, 70's and a few from as far back as the 40's.

From the evidence, I find no significant difference in performance, overall, between today's umpires and those of yesteryear. In fact, today's umpires, on average, are more athletic and mover more and quicker to get to their spots to make calls.

There's no Eric Gregg strike zones being called today, and in fact the outsde of the plate is being controlled better than a couple of games I got to review played in the 40's, including one with Bob Feller on the mound as the Indians took on the Yankees in 1946. Feller got the advantage of a huge strike zone.

Bangers at first...no difference. Number of arguments after close plays...no difference.

Here are differences: Endless Instant Replay. Replay was introduced in 1963 but didn't become a regualar part of baseball until 1965. Prior to that everyone from the umpire to the manager to the fan had one realtime look at the play. Differnces of opinion would pretty much just that, and they did not last long. With no evidence of an error, sportswriters and fans moved on.

Even when replay first became popular, a play was replayed one time, and then then everyone, even the announcers, goyt on with their lives. The technology at the time did not allow easy, nor quick replays over and over.

Another difference: More cameras shooting from more and different views. Some of the earliest games had one, then two , then three cameras...all positioned on the meezzanine level. Even as late as 1970 there were just five cameras, four on the mezzanine and one in centerfield.

Things started popping. In 1990 there were 12 cameras and nine taping machines. Today, there are more still and they are at set at different levels and angles providing views that, at times, no umpires has access to in real time.

And the advent of HD as added more clarity and a better view for everyone but the umpire.

Today, with cameras surrouding every play and every pitch, and the truly "instant" instant reply, fans can be shown anywhere between four and eight replays of a close call or pitch, and even more if the announcers decide to go back to it later in the game.

Stills can be taken from these digital videos and are often featured in papers and on websites.

So the umpire errors of today, unlike those of the 40's, 50, 60, 70, and to a large extent, the 80's, are confirmed as fact rather than opinion. Thus it appears that umpiring has declined.

It has not. The newer umpires are in better shape than ever. They are better trained than ever and they have better mechanics than their earlier brethern. They also have unforgiving, fully exposing and relentlessly playing evidence of their errors that their early brethern did not have.

And, notice that I said "errors." For some reason it is not deemed "good television" or interesting journalism to use instant replay on the 95%+ of the calls they get right.
piaa_umppiaa_ump5,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by biggerpapi:
Which brings me to this...are there really that many MORE missed calls or is everything magnified today with 24-hour coverage on ESPN, MLB Network, internet sites, etc?.


Im not sure there are any more missed calls, but that certainly the technology available today can show it better than a human umpire can see it..

more cameras, HD and super slo motion replay leaves no doubt.....whereas years ago, it would not have....
TRhitTRhit10,000+ posts
Jimmy

Again the "president" of the fraternity speaks out in protection of the brethren

I dont really care about umpires 60 years ago---the game of baseball, as has football and basketball, haqs gotten fatser and the players bigger and quicker and I do not belive that the umpires/refs have kept up.

On top of that they all now have attitudes of major size.

As I posted earlier today it is a sad commentary that the umpires are the prime topic of conversation in this years playoffs
Coach_MayCoach_May10,000+ posts
There can be no doubt the advances in technology have caused this stir. Every play is replayed over and over from different angles constantly. Its almost like the TV crew is trying to see if they can present an outcome different than what we got. I depise the pitchtrax stuff. I can see where the pitch was from the view behind the pitcher. Too many gizmos and not enough knowledge about the actual game in the booth. Not enough real baseball discussion about the game during the game and too much focus on the guys that are not actually playing the game.

The umpires are the topic of discussion because the media has locked on to them. They drive the topic. They lock onto something they think is controversial and then they ram it and cram it down our throats. In the press conferences they ask question after question about calls and the umpires. How about talking about the game itself and the players?

The umpires today are better trained, in better shape and more professional than they have ever been. They are scrutinized to a level that we have never seen because of the technology on the field. And the medias need to create side stories to go along with the games.
bsbl247bsbl2471,000+ posts
We've had umpires miss a call on the sinking line drive in the Yankees/Twins game. The apparent 3rd strike to Berkman (however, the first two strikes appeared to be outside?) followed by the double that subsequently ran Ron Gardenhire. And,the mis-call on the apparent check-swing from Young, which he followed with a three run dinger to CF, and later ran Joe Maddon (By Umpire Jim Wolf, who's brother is a pitcher in the MLB, I'm sure they have interesting family discussions!). Last night, it was evident in the "instant replay" that Posey should have been out at second on his SB attempt...Posey ended up scoring later in the inning, and that was the Only run of the game.

I'm not siding with umpires, I'm your typical "Couch Potatoe yelling at the Umps through the TV! Mad However, I agree with Jimmy and piaa that todays technology puts these guys under the microscope more than ever. No excuses, the game is quicker, the players are stronger, and Everyone needs to adapt...including the Blues!
coach2709coach270910,000+ posts
Here's what's great about baseball....

Berkman freezes on a borderline two strike pitch on the inside corner. Maybe the blue missed it or maybe he didn't.

Young checks his swing on what might have been a swing or might not have been a swing.

If the defense gets their way then they end up with an out. If the offense gets their way then they get ONLY another chance to do something.

Since both calls went to the offense the defense now has to get on the mound and make another pitch. That is what they would be doing even if the call had went their way. In both cases the offense blasted a shot off the wall and over it. That's not the umpires fault - that is the fault of the defense for not making better pitches.

Pavano followed up the inside fastball with a changeup and to be honest it was a pretty darn good one. But Berkman had blasted a changeup over the wall in a previous at bat. So why throw the changeup? Why not come back with another fastball or just something else?

Whoever was pitching to Young followed the check swing up with a c**k shot down the heart that got blasted 900 feet. Why did the pitcher throw that pitch? Why not ANYTHING else?

Both pitchers had to respond to a "bad" call as perceived by them and they failed to do so. That's part of baseball - mental toughness. Look at the Rays on the bench when the check swing was "missed" and how crazy they went. Are they really into trying to beat the Rangers or are they looking for reasons why they got beat?

The Twins are "snakebit" when it comes to the Yankees because they have lost their 8 or so postseason games. Everything is going against them and that's why they lose. But what about the fact that the Twins had a lead in almost every single of those 8 games? So in those 8 games fate / umps conspired to beat them or they don't have what it takes mentally?

The vast majority of players in MLB are pretty close to being equal in talent. You have the top players who are in a category of their own and a lower group who are barely hanging on and have a small role. The rest that make up a large chunk of the players are all pretty close in talent. So what separates that large group into winners and losers? I think it comes down to handling adversity is what makes a winner a winner when the other dugout is full of players with skills that are fairly equal to them.

Football if you're bigger / stronger / faster you're going to win the majority of time. Basketball is pretty much the same because some teams are just bigger. Occasionally you find a great shooting team that can offset the size but overall the taller teams are going to win. But when the bigger teams play each other in football / basketball what determines the winners and losers? Mental toughness to perform in adverse conditions.
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TRhit:
Jimmy

Again the "president" of the fraternity speaks out in protection of the brethren

I dont really care about umpires 60 years ago---the game of baseball, as has football and basketball, haqs gotten fatser and the players bigger and quicker and I do not belive that the umpires/refs have kept up.

On top of that they all now have attitudes of major size.

As I posted earlier today it is a sad commentary that the umpires are the prime topic of conversation in this years playoffs


Attitude? What a short memory you have. There isn't an umpire working today who can match Shag Crawfor, Doug Harvey ("They call me God") or even Augie Donatelli for attitude. You remind me of colleagues who have selective memory of the past and continually whine about the present.

I agree, it is a sad commentary that the umpires are the topic of conversation. A lot less whining by announcers and a few spoiled players would be appreciated.

What you believe is insignifcant. The reality is there are fewer fat, out of shape umpires today than in 50's, 60's, 70's and 80's. The new crop are trim and athletic, more so than many players.

Umpire mechanics involve trade-offs and play the odds. There will never be mechanics devised that put umpires in the perfect spot to see every play. One of the biggest weaknesses is the positioning of U2. At present, he has a great view of about 90% of the plays at second, none of which get 24 hour play on cable. But he has a terrible view of 10% of the plays, which do get 24 hour play on cable.

I love how the umpires are getting blamed for ejecting players who throw equipment. Per written directions fom MLB, a player who throws equipment is notified of a fine for the first offense and then automatically ejected for the second. But, it's the umpire's fault when it happens. Right.

MLb instructed umpires to stop taking so much **** from players and managers this year and eject earlier in any confrontation. The umpires have follwed their instructions. So when a manager comes out to argue balls and strikes, a rule book ejection, and then tells the umpire to F-off, again, it is the umpires fault that he gets ejected. Of course.

This a more of a return to the 60's than it is a "new" approach.
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by fillsfan:
That was no borderline strike on Berkman. That was a no doubt about it strike. I could see a manager getting tossed over that missed strike.


And you could tell that by the view froma camera that was not centered on the plate? You are good.
The catcher referred to it as borderline. I'll take his word for it.
NoReplayNoReplay100+ posts
I have absolutely no problem with an ump missing, blowing or simply seeing the play differently than I did on a one-off basis. Eg catch/no catch. They make mistakes, players make mistakes, managers make mistakes, the yankees keep Girardi on etc. As stated by many thats the game, part of the charm etc

What I am having trouble with is the apparent acceptance by mlb of umps with a consistently non regulation strike zone. This is readily observable to anyone watching the telecast games, both with and without the aid of the pitch track. Without the pitch track it is apparent that the umps, particularly in the twins/yanks series, are calling srikes, consistently, way outside the strike zone on one side of the plate while denying the pitch on the other side of the plate. (and I am not stupid.. I get that because they give the pitcher outside they have to give the batter something back on the inside).

With the pitch track the discepancy becomes not just apparent but glaringly so. (It also points out a surprising number of right down the pipe strikes that were apparently invisible to the ump but that is a different issue)
This is what I dont get; why does mlb put up with this? They have access to pitch track or similar technology, they have the ability to monitor and measure an umps deviation from the official zone. Why dont they act on this info to get the ump to correct his zone? Like before the playoffs even?

There is no question that this affects the play of the games. Look at the Berkman at bat; 2 pitches for called strikes outside over the line for the opposite batters box.(yes Jimmy this did/does happen). Then Pavano busts Berkman inside with a fastball that is clearly an honest-to-god-by-the-rulebook strike. Everyone in the park and everyone watching on tv knows its a strike. Berkman knows its a strike. Pavano knows its a strike, nevermind the 2 previous gifts he got he made this pitch and he wants the call...its over the plate! THE UMP knows its a strike...but he cant call it because he knows **** well that he diddled Berkman on the 2 previous unreachable "strikes". Next pitch double, Gardy tossed etc etc all because this ump is consistently and systematically calling balls well outside the zone stikes. This is not the same thing as the ump missing an occassional pitch. It is predictable, repeatable, measurable. The technology exists to demonstrate it. The ump must be teachable at some level (I mean hey, he has learned that if he calls it that far outside he cant call it on the plate inside after all)

So why does MLB put up with it?
NoReplayNoReplay100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy03:
Golly, Mr. Noreplay...you mean the pitches really weren't 18 inches outside as you first claimed?

I tivo'd the game to compare with your third and latest version. I'll wait for the 4th...you might get closer to the facts.


Jimy u seem stuck on attacking me.
Chill, Im not TR Smile
any comment on the question I asked? If not, did you have any reason whatsoever to post other than reflexive defense of the fratermity?

Whattya think about this?
http://www.brooksbaseball.net/...lb_1%2F&prevDate=107

Awful lot of green inside? Awful lot of Red outside
?
Gee maybe its not all about me huh?

EDIT:
or this
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=5662238

a few other notmes seem to have identified a few issues
Stop trying to bully k?
Last edited by NoReplay
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
A question for the umpires who post here...

This might have been mantioned before, but I missed it... Are you guys in favor of some form of replay based on the technology we have available?

It seems to me that it would improve the game. It would benefit players, coaches, maybe even fans, and for sure the umpires.

Odd how College and NFL referees aren't the topic of discussion these days. At least as much as they used to be.

Everyone is capable of missing bang-bang plays. Even the very best umpires, just like players, have good and bad days.

If we had replay over the past two days, there would have been some reversals. If that would have happened we might not have people thinking the umpires are incompetent.

BTW, Does anyone here really beleive that Major League umpires are incompetent? If so, that really confuses me. They don't just pick names out of hat and call them a MLB umpire. I'm truly hoping they are among the best in the world at what they do.

I ask again... no one answered the first time... Other than the money why would anyone want to be an umpire? Of course, I'm sure glad that many do want to umpire.
F fathertime7110+ posts
quote:
This might have been mantioned before, but I missed it... Are you guys in favor of some form of replay based on the technology we have available?
-Quote by Mr. Jerry Ford

I say yes. Hunter W. will never be Harry W.; that's just one example of incompetency in umpiring. Just because your daddy was a great umpire, doesn't make you one.

Get the call right. If it takes replays to cover-up incompetency; so-be-it!

Utilize advanced technology! By all means! I do it every single day and MLB should do it too!
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
fathertime,

So not to confuse anyone, I do not believe that MLB umpires are incompetent in any way. I just think anyone is going to make some mistakes based on how tough the job is. I don't think that NFL officials are incompetent either, but the replay can correct a few mistakes that are inevitably going to happen.

I’m not talking about replay at all levels, that would be impossible. But there is so much at stake in MLB.

If cameras can be used to show everyone that umpires made a mistake, why not use them to correct that mistake? Is it because we would then have less to b*tch about?

Besides I think the replays would prove just how good these MLB umpires are, just like it proves just how good the football officials are (no one is perfect). Seems odd to actually have the technology and not utilize it. I’m old school, but also realize the game can always get better.

Baseball was #1 when I was young, now football is more popular (based on attendance and TV ratings). Football decided to use the available technology and the game keeps getting bigger. The replays actually become an interesting segment of the game. Fans see the replays and still don’t always agree on what they see, after looking at it from multiple angles and slow motion. I believe the replays have become a form of entertainment all by themself.

There are ways to use replay that wouldn't take very long or disrupt the game. A lot less time than the actual arguments that follow these calls.

They are only necessary once in awhile. Usually only when the manager come out on the field to argue. If you think about it, that really doesn't happen much in every game, but when it does it takes much more time than reviewing the play and getting it right would.

Technology will never replace umpires. They have the exact same job. It would just help to get the call right. I fail to see how that could have "any" negative affect on baseball. In fact, I think it would help improve baseball. Anyway, it's inevitable, it's going to happen some day.

Not so many years ago before technology stepped in, we couldn't talk to people from coast to coast about these things like we do now. Was that better or worse?
F fathertime7110+ posts
It's like the number of days on a calendar; they are all numbered.

Nothing is constant but change. Change is here.

Yes I agree on PG's replay comment. No way can replays be done at all levels. That's not going to happen. The "budget" wouldn't allow it in these present day economic times. Business as usual.

But why not at least get the calls right in the playoffs when all the marbles are on the table?
bsbl247bsbl2471,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by MadDogPA:
part of the problem lies with the fact that the camera angle from the outfield is not from dead center, so what appears to be a strike on the black, could simply be an illusion...


I don't think it's the outfield camera angles anymore, but the new computerized Pitch Trax that the networks utilize IMO? I'm wondering how accurate it really is?
NoReplayNoReplay100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by bsbl247:
quote:
Originally posted by MadDogPA:
part of the problem lies with the fact that the camera angle from the outfield is not from dead center, so what appears to be a strike on the black, could simply be an illusion...


I don't think it's the outfield camera angles anymore, but the new computerized Pitch Trax that the networks utilize IMO? I'm wondering how accurate it really is?


Likewise.
Can anybody post links/studies that address this?
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by NoReplay:
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy03:
Golly, Mr. Noreplay...you mean the pitches really weren't 18 inches outside as you first claimed?

I tivo'd the game to compare with your third and latest version. I'll wait for the 4th...you might get closer to the facts.


Jimy u seem stuck on attacking me.
Chill, Im not TR Smile
any comment on the question I asked? If not, did you have any reason whatsoever to post other than reflexive defense of the fratermity?

Whattya think about this?
http://www.brooksbaseball.net/...lb_1%2F&prevDate=107

Awful lot of green inside? Awful lot of Red outside
?
Gee maybe its not all about me huh?

EDIT:
or this
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=5662238

a few other notmes seem to have identified a few issues
Stop trying to bully k?


Mr. No

AS others have pointed out to you in other threads, you are hanging you hat on a severly flawed system.

I haven't attacked you. I don't know you. I have attacked your post claiming that pitches 18 inches out side were called strikes during the game. I know for a fact that is incorrect.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but everyone is not entitled to their own facts.

And I agree you are not TR. TR makes sense more often.
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
A question for the umpires who post here...

This might have been mantioned before, but I missed it... Are you guys in favor of some form of replay based on the technology we have available?

It seems to me that it would improve the game. It would benefit players, coaches, maybe even fans, and for sure the umpires.

Odd how College and NFL referees aren't the topic of discussion these days. At least as much as they used to be.

Everyone is capable of missing bang-bang plays. Even the very best umpires, just like players, have good and bad days.

If we had replay over the past two days, there would have been some reversals. If that would have happened we might not have people thinking the umpires are incompetent.

BTW, Does anyone here really beleive that Major League umpires are incompetent? If so, that really confuses me. They don't just pick names out of hat and call them a MLB umpire. I'm truly hoping they are among the best in the world at what they do.

I ask again... no one answered the first time... Other than the money why would anyone want to be an umpire? Of course, I'm sure glad that many do want to umpire.


PG:

Replay is coming. No denying it. But, unless the networks seriously reposition some cameras, replay should be limited to fair/foul, HR/Ground Rule Double, HBP.

The cameras as of now do not show wht an Umpire can see and hear on the bases...they could with some repositioning.

As for catch/no catch, cameras are incapable of the judgement the rule book calls for regrading release of the ball.
NoReplayNoReplay100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy03:
quote:
Originally posted by NoReplay:
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy03:
Golly, Mr. Noreplay...you mean the pitches really weren't 18 inches outside as you first claimed?

I tivo'd the game to compare with your third and latest version. I'll wait for the 4th...you might get closer to the facts.


Jimy u seem stuck on attacking me.
Chill, Im not TR Smile

any comment on the question I asked? If not, did you have any reason whatsoever to post other than reflexive defense of the fratermity?

Whattya think about this?
http://www.brooksbaseball.net/...lb_1%2F&prevDate=107

Awful lot of green inside? Awful lot of Red outside
?
Gee maybe its not all about me huh?

EDIT:
or this
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=5662238

a few other notmes seem to have identified a few issues
Stop trying to bully k?


Mr. No

AS others have pointed out to you in other threads, you are hanging you hat on a severly flawed system.

I haven't attacked you. I don't know you. I have attacked your post claiming that pitches 18 inches out side were called strikes during the game. I know for a fact that is incorrect.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but everyone is not entitled to their own facts.

And I agree you are not TR. TR makes sense more often.


Ok "Mr Jimmy" you are pretty much proving you are incapable of discussing the issue itself. Yes you have attacked me and this post is yet another attack, with the ongoing "declining dimunitive" treatment of my onscreen nick, the condescending tone etc.

My initial post on this topic did say 5-6 balls of the plate. Thats called hyperbole. Dash called me on it and asked me if I wished to restate that and I said yes....3 balls off thanks. To borrow your phrase...Move on.
You have since refused to address the actual issue but keep bringing back the 18 inches...maybe because there is no rational way of actually defending the zone called? Lets make it direct and simple. Do you think the balls outside off the plate called strikes were, by any definition other than the fact that the ump called them strikes, actually strikes? If you dont like the 9 or 18 inch number, how many inches off the plate do you think they were? How many inches off the plate is acceptable?

Nobody, in any other thread, has pointed out to me that I am "hanging you hat on a severly flawed system". I have only posted on one other thread (yours). Closest was a comment "we all know how reliable pitch trackers are". Really? How accurate are they? MLB, thru QuesTec, says theirs is accurate to 1/2 inch. I dont know so I asked if anyone else does. Still waiting. Do you know?


The brooks site linked in my post above shows hendlestadt calling 14 -15 pitches well out of the zone strikes outside while there are at least 10 strikes called balls inside. thats one game, and only refers to called strikes not swinging. Thats at least one blown call for each hitter on average. Care to address that instead of attacking me?

With respect to "Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but everyone is not entitled to their own facts."
Couldnt agree more. The problem is that you think that your opinion=fact. Flash dude that only works when you are umping and you can rule rather than reason.
Last edited by NoReplay
zombywoofzombywoof1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by fillsfan:
That was no borderline strike on Berkman. That was a no doubt about it strike. I could see a manager getting tossed over that missed strike.


I thought it was an excellent pitch for a strike and I thought for sure Berkman got rung up and should have. And i'm a Yankee fan so I'm not saying it was a good call because it wasn't. However, It was fun to see that skunk Pavano who for the Yankees was a useful as teats on a bull get burned on that pitch. He basically wore a ski mask and looted the Bronx Bombers for 4 years.
piaa_umppiaa_ump5,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
A question for the umpires who post here...

This might have been mantioned before, but I missed it... Are you guys in favor of some form of replay based on the technology we have available?


I ask again... no one answered the first time... Other than the money why would anyone want to be an umpire? Of course, I'm sure glad that many do want to umpire.


Ok Jerry, here are my answers......

I am for instant replay for MLB in dead ball situations....baseball is a game of continuing action and the rule book relies on umpire judgement in many cases so I would hope that they will take those issues in account .....there will need to be some superior baseball minds involved to determine where, when and how technology can be inserted without undue loss of continuity or the spirit if the game...

I agree that it is inevitible as the technology has become so advanced with the HD super slo motion that errors can be seen that can not be reasonably seen by the human eye....Umpires get one shot at a call, at game speed....

Now I have no dog in this hunt.....I am a small time HS/small college umpire and this technology most likely will never be available at my levels.....

No umpire I ever knew wants to be wrong...we want to get the call right..I know I do....I train hard every year, go to advanced clinics, call balls/strikes in the cage in the winter for my sons D3 to hone my skills....all so the product I put on the field is the best I can do....and with all that a slo motion HD camera can tell which got there first, the ball in the glove or the foot on the base.... just a fact...the MLB umpires deserve to have this burden of perceived incompetency removed from them....

As to why I umpire....

My first job out of college took me to where I didnt know a soul...too late to be added to the corporate softball team I saw an ad for umpires for the local rec leagues.....all for the princely sum of $6.50 a game....I had been stopping by to watch the kids play anyway...when you love the game, the lights of a ballfield draw you like a moth to the porch light anyway....

I found that along with loving the game and the kids, that I had a knack for umpiring...as an ex-catcher, I knew the game and had a pretty good strike zone for a raw untrained rookie umpire....

I had the opportunity to see some fine American Legion umpires do a game after mine and I was taken by the difference between them and me. I wanted to do the job like they did...the kids I umpired deserved it...so I approached them and got my first lesson in what a real umpire is...

I found I that I enjoyed the science of umpiring (mechanics) and the art of umpiring (calling balls and strikes)and there is a personal satisfaction of a well run ballgame ....I also found I had the temprement for the game as well......my personality fits in well with the aspects of baseball at my current levels....

The money aspect is there, yet I no longer have to use umpiring money to pay for diapers and formula...I do not umpire for free....I am a trained umpire, insured and certified at the levels I do and am worthy of my hire....

Today, I am just a working umpire....a HS rules interpreter and Umpire instructor, chapter officer and evaluator.....and when I feel I can no longer do these things competently for levels I call, then I'll call it a career.....
Last edited by piaa_ump
zombywoofzombywoof1,000+ posts
The Umpire Strikes Again!!!

Giants vs Braves

SS makes nice play for SF, throws to 1B. Foot clearly off the bag and runner called out.

WOW..these guys in blue all over the league are bad. What's going on here.

How much incompetance could be stood in MLB playoff baseball rounds?

Are these guys in shape to get to the proper positiuon to make the right calls?

Umpires for sure need to take a physical and should be in good shape to run and be athletic enough to be in position. As well as their eyes being checked.

Look at an NBA ref. Even the old goats in the league are in top shape to run with those players..While a MLB ump don't need to condition like an NBA ref, they should be in top shape to do their job.

They need a lot of help.

Time to bring in instant replay and not just for blown home run calls.

The technology is there..They need to use it.
Last edited by zombywoof
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by NoReplay:


The brooks site linked in my post above shows hendlestadt calling 14 -15 pitches well out of the zone strikes outside while there are at least 10 strikes called balls inside. thats one game, and only refers to called strikes not swinging. Thats at least one blown call for each hitter on average. Care to address that instead of attacking me?


As you've been informed before, the Brooks site is seriously flawed and not taken as accurate by anyone with any experience or sense.

The "one blown call for each hitter on average" claim is on par with your initial claim of pitches 18 inches of the plate. If you want to be taken seriously, you need to debate facts not fanboy hyperbole.

Come back when you're ready to be serious. I have excellent relationships with Coach May, Coach 2709 and PGStaff and others who speak thoughtfully, seriously know what they are talking about,and don't lie or exaggerate, regardless of the side they represent.
Last edited by Jimmy03
NoReplayNoReplay100+ posts
Giants v Braves

PLate ump
pitch trx shows he is incredibly "on" so far
very consistent
a treat Smile

Edit
Sorry Jimmy missed your post

you are still slinging ****

NOBODY has informed me of any such thing, closest was you saying something about not understanding it?

Fanboy? How would that apply here? Fan to accuracy?
Good Umping?

"I enjoy my conversations here with coaches and others who speak respectfully and seriously know what they are talking about, regardless of the side they represent." I get that, you enjoy talking to sycophants.

With regards to knowing what I am talking about...
I asked why mlb, apparently in possession of tools to intervene, allowed this to continue unchecked. Key word is ASKED.
See, that is a question. I was hoping for some factual info,as you would maybe expect to find on a site like this...u know, educational?
Instead I got you with all your attitude saying there is no problem, only idiots on message boards think there is a problem. Thanks vey much. Value your input. Know exactly where you are coming from now wont ask u anything again yessir.
Well maybe one more thing. Do you have any actual data or evidence that the brooks site you slander is "seriously flawed". Not your opinion please. Maybe a link to something a little more substantive?
Piece a work you are alright.

LOL second EDit:

Ha I see what u did there Jimmy! Big Grin

Just so everybody here is clear, the names Jimmy included in his post above were added AFTER I made the sycophants comment, not before and I in no way endorse his implications.
Here is what he said pre his stealth edit:

"I enjoy my conversations here with coaches and others who speak respectfully and seriously know what they are talking about, regardless of the side they represent"

You are indeed a piece of work dude
Last edited by NoReplay
B bsballfan100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy03:
quote:
Originally posted by NoReplay:


The brooks site linked in my post above shows hendlestadt calling 14 -15 pitches well out of the zone strikes outside while there are at least 10 strikes called balls inside. thats one game, and only refers to called strikes not swinging. Thats at least one blown call for each hitter on average. Care to address that instead of attacking me?


As you've been informed before, the Brooks site is seriously flawed and not taken as accurate by anyone with any experience or sense.

The "one blown call for each hitter on average" claim is on par with your initial claim of pitches 18 inches of the plate. If you want to be taken seriously, you need to debate facts not fanboy hyperbole.

Come back when you're ready to be serious. I enjoy my conversations here with coaches and others who speak respectfully and seriously know what they are talking about, regardless of the side they represent.


And agree that you are 100% the authority on all things umpire related?
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
PG made some good points but I also think so did piaa_ump.
We are all expecting the umps to see in a split second what we see in HD solo motion. Impossible.
If we went back through time and looked at all games with the same technology as we have today, perhaps we might consider some of the very best umpires incompetent as well.
It's not really fair to judge the human eye with today's technology is it?. Using this technology on every suspect call would definetly stop the continuity.

JMO.
Last edited by TPM
B bsballfan100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by piaa_ump:
quote:
Originally posted by bsballfan:
And agree that you are 100% the authority on all things umpire related?


well, for what its worth, He is the most qualified / best trained/ and highest level umpire we have ever had on the HSBBW staff.....


Great, awesome, doesn't give you the right to be arrogant and condescending.
Tx-HuskerTx-Husker1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Tx-Husker:
You must be a zomby if you think NBA refs are better than MLB umps. NBA is a joke.


Better..No way..NBA refs use the star system. But they do get up and down the court tho


Who cares if they get up and down the court when they make awful calls when they get there. MLB umps do a far better job than NBA refs. No question. Only thing worst than NBA refs are s0ccer refs/umps/whatever they are call.
zombywoofzombywoof1,000+ posts
quote:
We are all expecting the umps to see in a split second what we see in HD solo motion. Impossible.
If we went back through time and looked at all games with the same technology as we have today, perhaps we might consider some of the very best umpires incompetent as well.
It's not really fair to judge the human eye with today's technology is it?. Using this technology on every suspect call would definetly stop the continuity.



Agree. You can't compare the technology to the human eye. The purpose of the technology should be to reverse the most obvious mistakes. The Jim Joyce incident was a clear examole of that. So was the Golston catch the other night.

Now when it comes to the split second bang-bang play that gets looked over 50 times over to try and make the right call, that alone justifies the call and that play should never see a replay booth and let the umpire call stand.

However, what must change is the three-monkeys approach where an umpire blew an obvious call and with six umpires and not one of them see the play and a terrible call goes unchanged.

These are the types of plays that need to be reviewed and checks and balances need to be in place so the umpires don't have an escape route when they blow a call.
Last edited by zombywoof
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by zombywoof:
However, what must change is the three-monkeys approach where an umpire blew an obvious call and with six umpires and not one of them see the play and a terrible call goes unchanged.


Please accept this as it is intended...a serious, non sarcastic question.

Do you believe the average fan believes that all umpires are watching the same play?

Working three man, I occasionally get coaches asking me what I saw at one base while I had the responsiblity of a runner going into another, but I really never thought fans would expect 6 umpires to be watching the same play. Could be, though.

And, if that is the case, is there any way they could be educated into understanding that that just doesn't happen?
piaa_umppiaa_ump5,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by zombywoof:
[QUOTE]These are the types of plays that need to be reviewed and checks and balances need to be in place so the umpires don't have an escape route when they blow a call.


I guess this is where you lose me......are you saying that you want technology to assist the umpires in getting the call right or as a tool to punish umpires for not being up to the techno-mechanical standards?.......

because this statement is what we have now...umpires make a call and the technology can show otherwise....the umpires can't change the call by rule and take the heat for it...
Last edited by piaa_ump
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
piaa ump,

I appreciate your answer to that question and understand completely. Though people might disagree with things, sometimes it becomes crystal clear to everyone. No one should ever condemn a person who does things based on passion or love of the game and those who play the game. FWIW... You have my complete respect.

On another topic, I can't even fathom how difficult officiating NBA games must be. Seems like you would have to be a great athlete just to keep up with everything. Are those guys really that bad?
Tx-HuskerTx-Husker1,000+ posts
quote:
Are those guys really that bad?


They go by different rules depending on the quarter they are in and "who" you are. It would be the same as the plate ump having a knee cap to belt strike zone for the first 6, then shoe strings to chin for the last 3...unless you're Albert then it's belly button to belt for all 9. It's silly. And the error rate per call would have to be at least 3X MLB.
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by bsballfan:

And agree that you are 100% the authority on all things umpire related?


I don't think Coach May, Coach 2709, PGStaff, Trojan-Skipper and others I have had the pleasure to debate civily, agree with and sometimes disagree with, would think any such thing.

I'm sure, however that TR, Noreplay and some others do. Here's what influences my posts.

I am older than many here, in late 50's. I've umpired since I was 22. I've worked several levels including high school, D-1, D-111, Legion, Select, Adult and have had the great fortune to have also worked relief in two minor leagues when an umpire gets ill or injured or promoted and his replacement can't get to town in time for a game.

I've been to proschool and work hard to keep my skills current. This requires harder work each year and I have gone to pro clinics to help keep up and stay current on rules interpretations.

Over the years I have met many minor league umpire and a few major league umpires and have been lucky enough to maintain a relationship with some of them I am not unique in that. Many amateur umpires have MLB friends. We just don't talk a lot about them. It's fairly universal that if we do, we lose their trust and eventually their friendship. From what I've seen here, I'm sure Matt13, Dash, PIAA and MST also have contacts at higher levels.

Most of all, I am a student of baseball and of umpiring. I've studied how the game was called in the 30's, 40's, 50's, and 60's. (I was there for the late 70's, unfortunately.) I've studied the evolution of the rules and work to understand not just the rules and interps, but also the reasons for the rules.

I've studied mechanics from the time they weren't referred to as mechanics, to the birth of the written two man system, the three man system and the four man system. I've dabbled with the six man system, but very little...I've only worked it four times.

I am not the best umpire. I am not the worst umpire. As I'm fond of telling coaches who say nice things at the end of a game..."I'm sure you've had better, I'm sure you've had worse." I work hard to get into position, I hustle and I call only what I see.

I respect coaches, managers and players who respect The Game, play it hard and honestly, and love it for what it is.

I do not respect those who disrespect the history and "grandness" of The Game or don't appreciate their "inheritance". I don't suffer well those who generalize or don't take the time to understand any role but their own, and who chose to accept emotion and opinion over facts.

I know that I can appear arrogant. I have on occasion apologized for that, especially when I have misunderstood a post or question. But I don't apologize for it when it comes in response to those who who chose to engage in baseball "class warfare" and choose not to consider the why's and wherefors of the actions of The Game or just want to attack and then beat the drum, again and again.

I truly enjoy this site and the many posters who chose to share their knowledge and genuine passion for The Game without hyperboleor shading the truth and who are willing to examine information that may be new to them...regardless of the conclusion they may come to.

Agreement is not necessary for respect. Honesty is. And I can happily say that this site is blessed with some good honest people.

One last thing, I really appreciate MST and PIAA as moderators and the all the other moderators as well. Their job is thankless and they do it well.
Last edited by Jimmy03
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by NoReplay:
QuesTec, the original MLB contracted system to assess/improve umpire zones claimed an accuracy of one half inch in 2001.
Presumably the systems would be at least as accurate now.
Does MLB still use this as an umpire training tool?


Questec was blowing somke. It proved to be very inaccurate and MLB stopped using it.
NoReplayNoReplay100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy03:
quote:
Originally posted by bsballfan:

And agree that you are 100% the authority on all things umpire related?


I don't think Coach May, Coach 2709, PGStaff, Trojan-Skipper and others I have had the pleasure to debate civily, agree with and sometimes disagree with, would think any such thing.

I'm sure, however that TR, Noreplay and some others do. Here's what influences my posts.

I am older than many here, late in 50's. I've umpired since I was 22. I've worked several levels including high school, D-1, D-111, Legion, Select, Adult and have had the great fortune to have also worked relief in two minor leagues when an umpire gets ill or injured or promoted and his replacement can't get to town in time for a game.

I've been to proschool and work hard to keep my skills current. This requires harder work each year and I have gone to pro clinics to help keep up and stay current on rules interpretations.

Over the years I have met many minor league umpire and a few major league umpires and have been luck enough to maintain a relationship with some of them I am not unique in that. Many amateur umpires have MLB friends. We just don't talk a lot about them. It's fairly universal that if we do, we lose their trust and eventually their friendship. From what I've seen here, I'm sure Matt13, Dash, PIAA and MST also have contacts at higher levels.

Most of all, I am a student of baseball and of umpiring. I've studied how the game was called in the 30's, 40's, 50's, and 60's. (I was there for the late 70's, unfortunately.) I've studied the evolution of the rules and work to understand not just the rules and interps, but also the reasons for the rules.

I've studied mechanics from the time they weren't referred to as mechanics, to the birth of the written two man system, the three man system and the four man system. I've dabbled with the six man system, but very little...I've only worked it four times.

I am not the best umpire. I am not the worst umpire. As I'm fond of telling coaches who say nice things at the end of a game..."I'm sure you've had better, I'm sure you've had worse." I work hard to get into position, I hustle and I call only what I see.

I respect coaches, managers and players who respect The Game, play it hard and honestly, and love it for what it is.

I do not respect those who disrespect the history and "grandness" of The Game or don't appreciate their "inheritance". I don't suffer well those who generalize or don't take the time to understand any role but their own, and who chose to accept emotion and opinion over facts.

I know that I can appear arrogant. I have on occasion apologized for that, especially when I have misunderstood a post or question. But I don't apologize for it when it comes in response to those who who chose to engage in baseball "class warfare" and choose not to consider the why's and wherefors of the actions of The Game or just want to attack and then beat the drum, again and again.

I truly enjoy this site and the many posters who chose to share their knowledge and genuine passion for The Game without hyperboleor shading the truth and who are willing to examine information that may be new to them...regardless of the conclusion they may come to.

Agreement is not necessary for respect. Honesty is. And I can happily say that this site is blessed with some good honest people.

One last thing, I really appreciate MST and PIAA as moderators and the all the other moderators as well. Their job is thankless and they do it well.


Got no problem with any of that. Peace and love Smile
(c'mon I'm in oregon)

Plate Ump Frisco Game still looks allstar!
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by zombywoof:
The Umpire Strikes Again!!!

Giants vs Braves

SS makes nice play for SF, throws to 1B. Foot clearly off the bag and runner called out.

WOW..these guys in blue all over the league are bad. What's going on here.

How much incompetance could be stood in MLB playoff baseball rounds?


Here is how that play is being reported:

"On Friday, Uribe dove to his right to grab the Gonzalez grounder, bounced up and threw to first. Replays were inconclusive whether Huff's foot came off the base as he stretched to grab the throw. Gonzalez, though, argued with Emmel after he crossed the bag, and Cox immediately picked the sword, slamming his Braves cap to the turf in anger."

In the limited replays I've seen, I couldn't tell exactly where the foot was when the ball was caught. He certainly came off at some point.
B bsballfan100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy03:
quote:
Originally posted by zombywoof:
The Umpire Strikes Again!!!

Giants vs Braves

SS makes nice play for SF, throws to 1B. Foot clearly off the bag and runner called out.

WOW..these guys in blue all over the league are bad. What's going on here.

Seems like the home plate umpire would have had a "straight line" view of the play....why not ask for help?
How much incompetance could be stood in MLB playoff baseball rounds?


Here is how that play is being reported:

"On Friday, Uribe dove to his right to grab the Gonzalez grounder, bounced up and threw to first. Replays were inconclusive whether Huff's foot came off the base as he stretched to grab the throw. Gonzalez, though, argued with Emmel after he crossed the bag, and Cox immediately picked the sword, slamming his Braves cap to the turf in anger."

In the limited replays I've seen, I couldn't tell exactly where the foot was when the ball was caught. He certainly came off at some point.


Seems like the home plate umpire had a "straight line" view of the play.....why not ask for help?
Last edited by bsballfan
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by bsballfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy03:
quote:
Originally posted by zombywoof:
The Umpire Strikes Again!!!

Giants vs Braves

SS makes nice play for SF, throws to 1B. Foot clearly off the bag and runner called out.

WOW..these guys in blue all over the league are bad. What's going on here.

Seems like the home plate umpire would have had a "straight line" view of the play....why not ask for help?
How much incompetance could be stood in MLB playoff baseball rounds?


Here is how that play is being reported:

"On Friday, Uribe dove to his right to grab the Gonzalez grounder, bounced up and threw to first. Replays were inconclusive whether Huff's foot came off the base as he stretched to grab the throw. Gonzalez, though, argued with Emmel after he crossed the bag, and Cox immediately picked the sword, slamming his Braves cap to the turf in anger."

In the limited replays I've seen, I couldn't tell exactly where the foot was when the ball was caught. He certainly came off at some point.


Seems like the home plate umpire had a "straight line" view of the play.....why not ask for help?


It appears Cox did speak with the PU and wasn't happy with the answer.

I know it would be hard to believe, but U1 may have gotten the call right.

Something to consider about PU's view:

PU needs to be watching the entire action on the play..this means he has to try to open his view so he can see the catch up highs and the foot touch the bag down low at the same time...harder than it sounds, and counter intuitive because when he's working first, he focuses his eyes on the foot touching the bag and listens for the ball hitting the glove.
Last edited by Jimmy03
NoReplayNoReplay100+ posts
OK. Giants/Braves game over
watched some but not all.
Was very impressed how the plate ump's (Nauert) calls were virtually perfect, both in terms of what naked eye saw and with what pitch track showed; it seemed he called virtually every ball/strike correctly.

Look at the Brooks site data on this:

http://www.brooksbaseball.net/...=|10/08/2010|Atlanta Braves @ San Francisco Giants

These scatter plots show the same thing, almost no missed calls and those missed were really pretty close.

To me the visual impression (liveview) matches the pitchtrax (tbs) which matches the Brooks site data.

Now compare those scatter diagrams to those posted for Wendelstedt's job in the yankees/twins game. Pay particular attention to the Left handed Hitters.

http://www.brooksbaseball.net/...lb_1%2F&prevDate=107

Once again,the visual impression real time matched the pitchtrax (tbs broadcast) which matches the Brooks site pitch location scatter diagrams. Before I knew of the existence of the Brooks site i stated in Jimmy03's thread that wend was consistently calling strikes 3 baseball widths off the plate. 9 inches. ( after being challenged on my admittedly exagerated 5-6 baseball widths..my bad, Rookie mistake) These scatter diagrams confirm that...he was calling balls 18 inches from the center of the plate strikes. Thats almost 10 inches off the plate, so LH hiters were facing 2 top of the line starters with a strike zone 27 inches wide.

Now look at wendelstedt's data for RHH. Totally different zone. Almost picture perfect for righties. So really, managers should be looking at this data when they set their lineups, not which pitcher they are facing. LHH is probably not going to get a good pitch to hit or ever be ahead of the count when wendelstedt works.

So back to my original question. I can see this. Others can see this, so surely mlb can see this. Why do they accept it?

The staggering thing about this is the consistency of wendelstedts erroneous zone. Also, he gets the RHH zone correct, so couldnt remediation from mlb get him to improve on the LHH zone?
Last edited by NoReplay
20dad20dad1,000+ posts
other than reading his post, i haven't really given much thought to the umpiring this post season. but i can't read any sports news without the bad umpiring headlines.

we all know that with so much media today, they replay things so much all mistakes are exposed. so i thought mlb will just tell the media to cool it with all the replay's,( kind of like not showing the guy running around the playing field.)

but with all the money these networks pay for broadcast rights,are they going to laugh at them? or is mlb going to be forced by public perception to use some sort of replay system?

to me it's part of baseball, some day's chicken, some day's feathers. i really don't see the need to highlight these things, as being that umps are not that bad.

but if it sells it prints. just a thought.



A baseball fan is a spectator sitting 500 feet from home plate or watching tv on the couch. Who can see better than an umpire standing five feet away.
Last edited by 20dad
fenwaysouthfenwaysouth10,000+ posts
Umpires - I know you are doing the best you can do with what you have. I know many people have tried umpiring and told me it is far from easy. I believe them. The "mechanics of umpiring" is difficult is usually what I hear most from those that try it.

My gripe is not with umpires (you are the messengers) it is with Major League Baseball; its Excutives and owners. Umpires need better tools to do their jobs better because the game has changed and will continue to change. Expectations from coaches, players and fans for correct calls will continue to increase. MLB is once again putting their head in the sand just like racial integration and PEDs or steriods. Reaction is part of their organizational legacy - to do as little as possible or resist change. Rather than be proactive they choose the path of "business as usual" or being reactive. This is all on the commissioner in my mind. He has the power to try to move this forward to protect the "brand" and grow it. Some will say the "brand" is already growing in attendance and revenue. I contend the "brand" would have been even bigger with these needed changes. The bigger problem is MLB needs to get on the front-end of future issues if it wants to compete with other major sports.
Last edited by fenwaysouth
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by NoReplay:
OK. Giants/Braves game over
So back to my original question. I can see this. Others can see this, so surely mlb can see this. Why do they accept it?



Because MLB understands how flawed Brookes methodology is and how the reults do not reflect reality. A simple reading of the description of the process will begin to show most people the inherent errors of the system.

This was examined by experts and discarded. It remains available for entertainment purposes.
igballigball500+ posts
I think overall they do an excellent job under difficult circumstances and I'm not a fan of expanding replay. However what I would like is to ensure is that the very best are out there this time of year. I can live with human error knowing the highest rated guys are the ones making the calls. This is another way of saying cb Buckner should never be out there during October.
NoReplayNoReplay100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy03:




Because MLB understands how flawed Brookes methodology is and how the reults do not reflect reality. A simple reading of the description of the process will begin to show most people the inherent errors of the system.

This was examined by experts and discarded. It remains available for entertainment purposes.[/QUOTE]

Im Sorry but with all due respect that argument wont work anymore.
The thing is, it does reflect reality. Wendelstedts strike zone just simply sux for LHH. I can see it. Pitchtrax can see it. The scatter diagrams confirm it. The players see it. F2 sets up on the chalk line for the opposite batters box. F1 hits that spot, W calls it. Rinse and repeat. Berkman knows it and knows he is safe laying off the inside pitch.
MLB has abandoned it?
Every Major League park is wired (camera'd??) for pitchtrax or a system like it.

Look. You cant pretend there is no issue. The cry for replay comes because of repeated observable mistakes...the issue creates the furor.

Its better from almost everyone's perspective to minimize use of replay and continue with the umps, who in fact do a great job most of the time. But, just like hitters and pitchers use video and modern training techniques to improve their game, mlb and the umps need to do the same. Aside from physiogic testing and weeding out the old, fat and infirm probably not much you can ever do to affect the call of the bang bang play at first or the high tag.

But the strike zone? Called 200 times every game, right there in front of everyone, big as buck jones for all to see, all to record, all to play back. Wendlestedt and his ilk call strike after strike way off the plate. Clearly affects the game, and contrary to the recurring pap apologists for this offer over and over again, it cant be adjusted to by the hitter except in the way Berkman did, which as we have seen leads to its own set of problems.

The cumulative effect of all those miscalls (which is essentially cheating on the umps part) readily observed, throughout the course of a game/series/season seves to magnify the ire and anger expressed over the other "one-off" missed calls nd fuels more of the demand for replays...people dont want to remove the charm of the human element, they want to remove the cheating and incompetence.


Its interesting. Spent a few hours browsing several of the umpires bulletin boards. They talk about this. Some are bothered by the process, some laugh at the dismay of "the rats".
the problem becomes more understandble tho, like the players, many desire and most dont achieve MLB. Tose who do apparently have say in who else goes up and down. Wendelstedt sells courses and camps to these aspiring umps. He must become somewhat "untouchable"

So I guess we are depnding on Bud to fix it.
biggerpapibiggerpapi5,000+ posts
A little off topic here (but this IS getting a little old)....

Did anyone else think it was unnecessary for Cox to get himself run so early in a VERY important ballgame?

I know many people seem to think it's cute that he so old and has so many ejections. I just wonder if it had more potential to hurt his team to get tossed in the second inning.
T Tooldforthis100+ posts
biggerpapi,
After the interview from the game the night before, the reporters were all over him for not questioning the call, so IMO I think that this one was so close that he decided to run out to the field and argue the call because it was the same umpire and he may have felt that it would fire up his team.

Just a note on the call at first base, It has been shown from every point that the cameras had here in the Bay Area and everyone shows that it was a bang, bang play and to close to call or over turn. Besides it wouldn't have changed anything more than the fastball down the middle of the plate that ended up in McCovey Cove, that is the one that should have been over turned. I think the pitcher balked before he threw the ball, should have been a non pitch. Just kidding, nice hit, dang it.
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by NoReplay:
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy03:




Because MLB understands how flawed Brookes methodology is and how the reults do not reflect reality. A simple reading of the description of the process will begin to show most people the inherent errors of the system.

This was examined by experts and discarded. It remains available for entertainment purposes.


Im Sorry but with all due respect that argument wont work anymore.
The thing is, it does reflect reality. Wendelstedts strike zone just simply sux for LHH. I can see it. Pitchtrax can see it. The scatter diagrams confirm it. [/QUOTE]

This is normally where I get frustrated and say something obnoxious. I will do my best to not do that.

The facts are that the mythodology of the brookes site is severely flawed. It has been examined and tested and failed. You can relate what you think you see all you want. No probelm. No one can argue with you over what you think you see. However there are facts regarding the brooke site, and they do not support its results.

Now then, if you want to discuss Meals calling two pitches in the opposite side batter's boxes strikes in the top of the 7th a few minutes ago...yep, he sure did.

See, I don't deny it can happen. I just deny it happened when I have the evidence to demonstrate that it didn't. Two different things.

Generalizations are not valid.
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by zombywoof:
The Umpire Strikes Again!

SB attempt by Texas in the 6th..Runner slides in, momentum pulls him off the bag, infielder applied the tag and held the tag at second as the baserunner comes off the base and the umpire missed it.

Looks like these playoffs are about the sub-par officiating.



Tough call. The umpire was screened by the fielder and didn't see the separation. But he surely missed it.
F fathertime7110+ posts
Incompetency again today...

Paul N. is the best umpire in the business, he is not incompetent. Others I will choose not to name in MLB are incompetent. I sat through many spring training games with well respected umpires for almost two decades and can vouch for some of them but Paul is the best. Dutch was awesome too. Too bad he retired, but I don't blame him. Golf on a daily basis opposed to sweaty ballparks with everyone yelling at you is a no-brainer. The games I observed with Paul N. when he was an umpiring supervisor here in FL during spring training taught me a great deal. The human aspect of making snap calls cannot be denied in the game of baseball; however, technology is being used for everything else! Why not MLB post season play?

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, replays are desperately needed in post season play! I might give Paul a ring to see if replays are going become a reality. My guess would be yes after what I have witnessed during this post season, thusfar. I'm just a retired person with no real inside knowledge but it is obvious for even the novice fan that too much is on the line to allow the DINOSAUR APPROACH TO CONTROL MILLIONS.
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by biggerpapi:
A little off topic here (but this IS getting a little old)....

Did anyone else think it was unnecessary for Cox to get himself run so early in a VERY important ballgame?

I know many people seem to think it's cute that he so old and has so many ejections. I just wonder if it had more potential to hurt his team to get tossed in the second inning.


When see this one and then count up how many times he got ejected without leaving the dugout, I think there is some truth to the allegation he's just padding his stats.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by biggerpapi:
A little off topic here (but this IS getting a little old)....

Did anyone else think it was unnecessary for Cox to get himself run so early in a VERY important ballgame?

I know many people seem to think it's cute that he so old and has so many ejections. I just wonder if it had more potential to hurt his team to get tossed in the second inning.


According to one Atlanta Brave who has played with him for quite sometime, he doesn't really coach much anymore, he let's his players play their game.
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by bsballfan:

Great, awesome, doesn't give you the right to be arrogant and condescending.


You are correct. Nothing gives anyone that right. Unfortunately, as I've admitted before, I fail to avoid writing some things than can easily be interpreted as arrogant.

What it is in reality, is a response to frustration, which, still, doesn't excuse it.

On the field, I can walk away from situations that cause that frustration. At home, on the computer, it's just so much easier to type something. I will try to remember to go back to my original philosophy about responding when I am frustrated...not to.

That said, and just for fun, here's what, for whatever reason, gets me that frustrated.

1. Folks who refuse to understand the difference between and explanation and an excuse. MST, PIAA, MATT 13, Dash and I have all had our turns at training umpires and we appear to have similar backrounds. When we see umpire err, our first reaction is to discover "why" the error was made.

The simplistic name calling (incompetent) is not a reason and is not usually true. When we discover the reason, improper mechanics, screened-out, result of the compromises inherent in mechanics, bad positioning...whatever, we do not excuse the error, we simmply explain. When we do this some folks accuse us of just blindly backing up the umpire and, believe me, because I've tried, no amount of conversation can convince them that there is a difference bewteeen knowing the cause of an event and excusing the event.

2. People who confuse opinon with fact.

3. People who refuse to accept facts, even presented with documented and, at times, visual evidence. That one astounds me.

4. People with no intellectual curiosity for anything other than what they have already accepted as important, true, or convenient.

5. People who think the rule book differentiates between right handed and left handed pitchers.

6. People who blame umpires for MLB policy.

7. People who think the rule book is the only source of interpretations.

8. Umpires who do not understand the game.

9. Umpires who do not know the rules.

10. Players who think yelling F bombs at umpires from dugout (think Shields)is normal, accepted, and protected practice.

11. Paid coaches who think that because they make a living in baseball, they should get a call that their team honestly did not earn.

12. People who generalize and claim "all umpires...this or that" or "all coaches...this or that." This is simply an excuse for hot having to think.

13. The Yankees, since CBS purchased them and thereafter.

14. Anyone who will post that this lists proves anything.

15. The designated hitter.

16. People who think that a force play slide rule, requires a runner to slide.

16. Weak baseball commissioners.

And last....me, when I forget to walk away from these other sources of frustration.
B bsballfan100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
quote:
Originally posted by biggerpapi:
A little off topic here (but this IS getting a little old)....

Did anyone else think it was unnecessary for Cox to get himself run so early in a VERY important ballgame?

I know many people seem to think it's cute that he so old and has so many ejections. I just wonder if it had more potential to hurt his team to get tossed in the second inning.


According to one Atlanta Brave who has played with him for quite sometime, he doesn't really coach much anymore, he let's his players play their game.


That is laughable....Bobby Cox is one of the finest managers in MLB history....His players LOVE HIM.

Also, that umpire did not have to throw him out of the game....he could have said "Bobby pick up your **** hat and let's play" or he could have brought the home plate umpire over talked it over and said "hey Bobby, I asked neither or us had him off the bag" but he didn't....he just threw him out.

Look, he was wrong to do it but they didn't have to throw him out.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
Of course his players love him! Where was it mentioned he wasn't a great manager, he just doesn't coach up like he used to. If they really needed him, he wouldn't get himself thrown out every other game and especially during playoffs.

A big part of him being a great manager is to let his players play the game, not micro manage every move. He's taught a lot of players to make their own decisions and be responsible for their mistakes, that is why they love him so much and why so many great players have come from Atlanta.

BTW, I hate that pitch trax, the intended use is to show the pitchers set up, some think it's to show whether calls are good or bad.
NoReplayNoReplay100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy03:
quote:
Originally posted by NoReplay:
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy03:




Because MLB understands how flawed Brookes methodology is and how the reults do not reflect reality. A simple reading of the description of the process will begin to show most people the inherent errors of the system.

This was examined by experts and discarded. It remains available for entertainment purposes.


Im Sorry but with all due respect that argument wont work anymore.
The thing is, it does reflect reality. Wendelstedts strike zone just simply sux for LHH. I can see it. Pitchtrax can see it. The scatter diagrams confirm it.


This is normally where I get frustrated and say something obnoxious. I will do my best to not do that.

The facts are that the mythodology of the brookes site is severely flawed. It has been examined and tested and failed. You can relate what you think you see all you want. No probelm. No one can argue with you over what you think you see. However there are facts regarding the brooke site, and they do not support its results.

Now then, if you want to discuss Meals calling two pitches in the opposite side batter's boxes strikes in the top of the 7th a few minutes ago...yep, he sure did.

See, I don't deny it can happen. I just deny it happened when I have the evidence to demonstrate that it didn't. Two different things.

Generalizations are not valid.[/QUOTE]

You have stated this before. Your statement remains unsupported despite multiple requests re same. Show me how the data is flawed, show me the "tests" that you reference; show me "the facts regarding the brooke site" because frankly, I dont believe you. And Im not talking, btw, about the more esoteric aspects of the site where they predict pitch effectiveness etc. Im talking about the simple pitch location scatter diagrams. These are not 3rd order differentials or theoretical equations; these are simply plotted coordinates.

Im not talking about "what I think I saw". Im talking about what I KNOW I saw, and what, for that matter , I can go back and review over and over because it is recorded...as can you.
In your later post tonight you say this:

"3. People who refuse to accept facts, even presented with documented and, at times, visual evidence. That one astounds me."

Me too. Can you actually look at the calls made by Wendlestedt in the Twins/Yankees game and NOT see that he was calling an entirely different zone for RH and LH hitters? Can you not compare what you see in the game with the scatter diagram on the Brooks site that matches this? There are 14-15 called strikes on LHH that were clearly 6 inches plus off the plate, several of these are well beyond 6 , one is at 10 inches.

This is really the crux of the issue we face now. Back in the day you got one look at the pitch. Umps could and did rely on the fact that any discussion was a whole lot of "he said" "she said" stuff that could never be settled one way or the other. Today I can go back and review every single off the plate call made by Wendlestedt on a LHH in that game. You said that you TIVO'D the game so you can as well. What do you "think" you saw when you do this?

You are simply telling me over and over that what I can SEE didnt happen. Revealed Knowledge. Revealed knowledge that does not stand up to any sort of objective assessment. Wont work anymore

BTW, What evidence, as in "I just deny it happened when I have the evidence to demonstrate that it didn't." do you have to demonstrate that the strike zone called by Wendlestedt in that game is not as I have said it was? And not as the Brookes scatter diagrams objectively documents?
NoReplayNoReplay100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy03:
While I am waiting for permission to release an email to you, why don't you just review Dan Brooks's comment regarding his graphs?

"These parameters are variable and should not be taken as gospel"


Sure . But how does it apply?
He was referencing adjustments to the height required for batters of varying height...the y axis. Setting the upper and lower limits of the strike zone for short fella vs tall guy.
We have been discussing variations along the x axis..inside/outside.
For the purposes of this discussion you can simply look at the non-normalized maps and then those parameters are not involved.
Clear?

Last edited by NoReplay

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