Movement vs. velocity

quote:

Originally posted by BaseballPop59:
How much does fastball movement matter?

A ball that's moving around is much harder to hit solidly than one that comes in straight.

The 2 or 3 MPH velocity boost isn't going to make a straight ball that much harder to hit (unless the guy with the straight FB has great control).

Location, movement, deception and velocity in that order. Having velocity allows for a few more mistake pitches. However, I agree with Painguy, a couple of mph is not going to be that different. I would rather have the movement unless the velocity difference was 6-10 mph.jmo

From my observation, for a coach pitching is important, not throwing.

quote:

Originally posted by Bighit15:
I would rather have the movement unless the velocity difference was 6-10 mph.jmo

I agree.

Even then, I'd rather have movement and great location (ala Greg Maddux).

quote:

Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:
From my observation, pitching is important, not throwing.

In my opinion...

- Movement and Location = Pitching
- Raw Velocity = Throwing

Good Day BaseballPop59,

The difference is that the pitcher with movement will make the team every time before the other pitcher.

After HS, if you don't have movement on your pitches, your going to get hit and hit hard.

Even in the pros, velocity + little or no movement = short career !

quote:

Originally posted by NHFundamentalsDad:
Good Day BaseballPop59,

The difference is that the pitcher with movement will make the team every time before the other pitcher.

That is a pretty bold statement to make. IMHO, it ignores the love affair with the radar.

Should the movement trump the velocity? Yes. We all agree on that one.

Will the movement trump the radar readings? Not necessarily. Don't underestimate the fixation on mph's.

And yes, lots of speed with no movement will result in whiplash. But there are lots of hard throwers getting opportunities to fail, while lots of pitchers don't get that opportunity.

TEXAN is exactly right. A college recruiter will be all over a pitcher that throw high 80's with no movement. At the same time a kid that can pitch with movement in the low 80's and has a good changeup and curveball will not get any attention at all.

At the high school and college level, velocity is usually the most often looked at.

At the pro level, velocity is still important, but movement is an integral part.

Greg Maddux has made a pretty solid career for himself with movement and location.

Also, don't overlook the importantce of changing speeds. A 10-15 mph drop in velocity with a solid changeup can make a pitcher very tough.

I love velocity discussions! ---- Those with hard throwing sons see it one way and those with son's that don't see it another. I think velocity is the one thing that brings in the scouts and the college coaches. It's what the pitcher can do with that velocity that separates the pitchers from the throwers at the higher levels. --- BUT ---- The winds of change are blowing!
Someday they will put "movement meters" on the outfield fences and all the scouts will turn in their radar guns for tape measures...
I can hear parents now --- "You know the Craftsman tape actually measures a little less than the Lufkin tape".
Fungo

quote:

Originally posted by CatchingCoach05:
Also, don't overlook the importantce of changing speeds. A 10-15 mph drop in velocity with a solid changeup can make a pitcher very tough.

Just to pick a nit...

A 10-15 MPH drop between a fastball and a change-up is too much, IMO.

Based on some research I've done into the limits of the human perceptual system and what successful pitchers actually do, a 72 MPH change-up (or 8 MPH drop) is the best complement for an 80 MPH.

This 10% (or 8 MPH) difference between your change-up and your fastball is small enough that it's hard to notice that the pitch is a change-up but large enough to still screw up the batter's timing. Too large of a differential between the two (e.g. 20% or 15 MPH), and it's obvious that the pitch is a change-up. Too small of a differential between the two (e.g. 5% or 4 MPH) and you have a soft, crushable fastaball.

In other words, it's not a coincidence that Greg Maddux's complements his 86 MPH fastball with a 78 MPH change-up (e.g. a 10% difference).

quote:

Should the movement trump the velocity? Yes. We all agree on that one.

Will the movement trump the radar readings? Not necessarily. Don't underestimate the fixation on mph's.

Thats a big part of my question. SHOULD the college coach take a close look at the pitcher with alot of movment? YES. WILL the coach give the ++ movement guy a chance when there is a straight-throwing pitcher who is 3 mph faster? That's what I am very curious about. During recruiting and also after both pitchers make the college team. Will the one with movement be given a chance to show he can get outs if he is 2-3 mph slower.

Fungo -
Then I'm gonna order me one of these right away

quote:

Originally posted by BaseballPop59:

quote:

Should the movement trump the velocity? Yes. We all agree on that one. Will the movement trump the radar readings? Not necessarily. Don't underestimate the fixation on mph's.

Thats a big part of my question. SHOULD the college coach take a close look at the pitcher with alot of movment? YES. WILL the coach give the ++ movement guy a chance when there is a straight-throwing pitcher who is 3 mph faster? That's what I am very curious about. During recruiting and also after both pitchers make the college team. Will the one with movement be given a chance to show he can get outs if he is 2-3 mph slower.

He will if the coach/scout looks at the guys statistics (e.g. W/L, ERA, GB/FB) rather than just the number the radar gun gives him. That's part of the whole Moneyball thing.

But don't hold your breath.

Greg Maddux likely got noticed because he could throw in the low 90s. He then backed off as he learned more about pitching (versus just throwing).

Sandy Koufax was another guy who succeeded at less than his maximum MPH.

quote:

Originally posted by CatchingCoach05:
Greg Maddux has made a pretty solid career for himself with movement and location.

Also, don't overlook the importantce of changing speeds. A 10-15 mph drop in velocity with a solid changeup can make a pitcher very tough.

Absolutely agree with you on what it takes to be a successful pitcher once you have the opportunity.

Speed gets the most opportunity, though.

Good one, Fungo!!!

{I'm hoping for both, BTW, speed & movement.}

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:

quote:

Originally posted by CatchingCoach05:
Also, don't overlook the importantce of changing speeds. A 10-15 mph drop in velocity with a solid changeup can make a pitcher very tough.

Just to pick a nit...

A 10-15 MPH drop between a fastball and a change-up is too much, IMO.

Based on some research I've done into the limits of the human perceptual system and what successful pitchers actually do, a 72 MPH change-up (or 8 MPH drop) is the best complement for an 80 MPH.

This 10% (or 8 MPH) difference between your change-up and your fastball is small enough that it's hard to notice that the pitch is a change-up but large enough to still screw up the batter's timing. Too large of a differential between the two (e.g. 20% or 15 MPH), and it's obvious that the pitch is a change-up. Too small of a differential between the two (e.g. 5% or 4 MPH) and you have a soft, crushable fastaball.

In other words, it's not a coincidence that Greg Maddux's complements his 86 MPH fastball with a 78 MPH change-up (e.g. a 10% difference).

The number I have heard is 12-15%. And from empirical evidence, ~12 mph off a 85 mph fb works very well. The bigger factor is whether the pitcher telegraphs his offspeed. If he telegraphs his offspeed, it doesn't make any difference if the c/u is 10% or 15% slower.

BTW, 5 mph off the fastball can get you a nice long foul if it is angled in toward the hands. {Again, if it is not telegraphed.}

These velocity vs. (fill in the blank) discussions are always very interesting! I am especially interested in this one because my son has about average velocity for his college team, but above-average movement. I hope his coach likes movement!!!

MN-Mom you are right , these discussions are fascinating. Texan , you continue to impress me with your knowledege of pitching .(not throwing!) Anybody find this motion over velocity coach give him my e-mail address!( I got one of them pitchers too!)I still go back to what Ted Williams said ," load a baseball in a cannon and shoot it at me , if it's straight I'll hit it." Was at a college showcase camp this weekend with my control pitcher and the head coach commented on his moving fastball and 10MPH difference in his changeup , then went to talk to all the guys who lit up the radar gun.

quote:

Originally posted by achance:
Anybody find this motion over velocity coach give him my e-mail address!( I got one of them pitchers too!)

quote:

Was at a college showcase camp this weekend with my control pitcher and the head coach commented on his moving fastball and 10MPH difference in his changeup , then went to talk to all the guys who lit up the radar gun.

How many times have we seen that scenario play out?

quote:

a kid that can pitch with movement in the low 80's and has a good changeup and curveball will not get any attention at all.

There are pitchers that throw with velocity and movement.....................

Low 80's ain't enough at the bigger schools.

Think I’ll take a crack at this?

Every coach in the world would pick three mph less with much more movement. If that difference becomes in velocity gets extreme for the high velocity guy, every coach will take the high velocity guy unless the low velocity guy has proven to be successful.

Truth is 90 is harder to hit than 85. 95 is even harder to hit, and 100 is even harder. If someone could throw 105 he would be able to throw it straight and still be very successful. Major League hitters hit best against what they most often see (the low 90s fastball). Batting averages drop against 100 mph fastballs (look it up). They would drop even more if someone could throw 105.

Regarding velocity… It’s not all about the fastball. The gun reads the velocity on all pitches. If you had your choice of a 95 mph fairly straight fastball and an 85 mph fastball with lots of movement, you might take the 85 with lots of movement. But then think about this, The 95 guy might have a 88 mph slider and that’s got more speed and movement than any 85 mph fastball.

When you pick a pitcher, you would look at everything the pitcher has to offer. I think high 90s is amazing. (Straight or not). But what really blows my mind is when I see a 90 mph slider! No one can throw a 90 mph slider unless they have an even harder fastball.

Not sure if any of this makes sense to anyone.

By the way, the 8 mph is good differential for fastball to slider. Most (not all) of the best change ups I’ve seen are in the 12-13 mph differential. There are 4 things the good changeup has and speed differential is just one of them. The best changeup these days is Santana’s. And his might be on the slower end of the differential.

Bottom line… If your pitches do not have movement, you’ll sooner or later hit a snag, unless you’re throwing a velocity hitters never see.

I’ve often wondered if one reason guys like Maddux and Moyer are so successful is because hitters just don’t see that velocity very often at that level. They just don’t get to hit against good movement at mid 80s in the Big Leagues that often. They see low 90s or better nearly every game.

If anyone is getting bored... I understand.

Nawp, that ain't boring, PG, and it makes sense to me.............

Nice post.

PG, never boring ... actually, that was very interesting.

Well put, PG!! Excellent post.

OK, if your not bored yet, I'll continue with some more thoughts. FWIW

Pitching and Throwing.

The one position where more throws are made that determine the outcome of a game are made by the pitcher. For a pitcher, he needs to throw (in most cases) so that he can get the best (not to be confused with the most) velocity, the most accuracy (location), the best movement, while being the most deceptive. Or a combination of those things.

I understand what people are saying when they compare throwing to pitching. But pitching is more about throwing talent than any other thing I can think of.

If you had two 12 year olds that never pitched before and you had to make one a pitcher… Who gets picked? I’d guess in most every case it will be the one who can throw the best (unless one happened to be your son). Then you try to teach the best thrower how to pitch, but he will never stop throwing.

Bottom line… There have been many who can throw real hard (velocity), but can’t pitch well enough. There have been many who can pitch, who can’t throw well enough. In most all cases, those who can do both end up going the farthest. Throwing and pitching are too close to separate. Good throwers (arm) often end up being the best pitchers!

Whether we call it accuracy or location, it’s important at every position on the field. Movement and deception are exclusive to pitching. Throwing mechanics pertain to all positions, though they might be different from one position to another. The pitcher is a position and throwing ability is its most important ingredient. Throwing ability is not defined by velocity alone.

Mechanics… Are they designed to allow the pitcher to throw more effectively? Or is the purpose of good mechanics to allow the pitcher to stay healthy? Well it’s both, but the major emphasis is to throw more effectively IMO. Throw better first, safest second!

Pitching or throwing that much is one of the worst things a person could do to keep their elbow and shoulder healthy. If safety was the main concern, pitchers would all use the mechanics involved in throwing under handed. The mechanics that produce the most success are more important than the mechanics that produce the most safety. Hopefully the two are close enough to the same for some pitchers.

But the safest thing, long term, for the arm of a pitcher is being unsuccessful. (If you know what I mean)

I enjoy giving opinions sometimes. Also enjoy reading others whether they agree or not.

PG,
Great posts and lots to think about.

For what it's worth, in the college game, it's all about being successful, no matter what level you play at. The low 80's pitcher with movement, deception, etc. can be just as successful as the 95 pitcher with a deadly slider. Very few have it all, that's why each pitcher that a recruiter considers is for a reason. Some are recruited as starters, relief and closers. Some recruited for what they have to offer asap and some recruited for a year or so into college.
I hate the hang up people have on high velocity at the college level. They think it is the most important tool for the pitcher. I do not beleive that it is. JMO.

I have been told by a college recruiter at a D1
school, that unless a hs pitcher throws 88-89 at a minimum, they would not recruit that player. It makes no difference what kind of movement he may have, he has to hit 88-89. I beleive this to be true with nearly all D1 programs. It is the same for a hitter. If a player cannot hit hr's, he can bat 750 and no one is interested.

I think we need to remember that a great deal of disparity exists among D1 programs.

I love it when you talk about this stuff PGStaff. It's obvious that you've been around the game at the highest levels.

Thanks for contributing!

Jason

PG, so well said. Do you mind if I have some young coaches and pitchers read your post?
We often forget that the player must be able to throw in the first place. Thats why we pick them to pitch, not because of bloodlines (Sons). When scouts are recruiting, they must be impressed enough to bring info back to their higher-ups. Otherwise they could be out of a job. College on the other hand can make roster decisions. If a kid has decent velocity, in the coach or recruiters opinion, and has movement and deception along with control, and Most importantly gets hitters out, they will consider that pitcher.
Remember fit, a school needs to fill roster spots and the student must find a fit. Just because big school D1 would say they wouldn't take a certain pitcher due to velocity, doesn't mean they wouldn't if they had to fill a roster need.

MM77 somebody is pulling your leg.
A friend of my son was the 2nd most productive pitcher at a D1 school and he throws 78-81. He logged 50 innings in his freshman year. In the summer league he was in the top 5 in the league pitching against ex pros, high level college players etc.
I don't know why people buy into this garbage. Last year I listened to several D1 games and there were many soft tossers in the words of the announcer. 78-80 mph and a couple even slower.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
MM77 somebody is pulling your leg.
A friend of my son was the 2nd most productive pitcher at a D1 school and he throws 78-81. He logged 50 innings in his freshman year. In the summer league he was in the top 5 in the league pitching against ex pros, high level college players etc.
I don't know why people buy into this garbage. Last year I listened to several D1 games and there were many soft tossers in the words of the announcer. 78-80 mph and a couple even slower.

I don't think so.

Based on some people I've run into, I believe that some guys only pay attention to velocity (or home runs).

That creates opportunities for guys (like the A's) who look at the whole package.

BBHD - which D1 schools?

Thereapyguy What don't you believe ?

Texan the D1 is not a hidh level that my son's friend goes to. The summer league is higher than college. Several ML guys and high ranked college players.
I have listened to top 25 schools that the announcer has mentioned the pitcher wasn't breaking 80.
A guy just got sined by the Yankees who topps out at 81-82. I have no arguement about hard throwers get more looks. My son has been told he is a ML prospect and he was hiting 83-84 at the MLB camp. I also know he gets overlooked when there are several guys throwing in the 90s. The point is there are too many people who think there is a magic number.

Texan & mm77,

I think you missed the point of my earlier post. It was in response to the orignal question which referenced a low 80's & mid 80's pitcher.

I beleive that you find all the 90+ MPH college pitchers that you see at the major baseball programs have the best of both worlds....velocity AND movement.

The original discussion was about velocity in the low 80s with movement and velocity inthe mid 80's (possibly increasing to the high 80's) with little or no movement.

qutoe from mm77

TEXAN is exactly right. A college recruiter will be all over a pitcher that throw high 80's with no movement. At the same time a kid that can pitch with movement in the low 80's and has a good changeup and curveball will not get any attention at all.

I am curious where you would possibly think this would happen. Extremely few, if any, top D1 schools are going to take a guy not cracking 90 with no movement. Their competition will eat that pitcher alive!

Once you leace the HS diamond, and head to Legion ball or selct team ball, you had better have pitches that move. After HS, there are no patsies in the lineups.

quote:

Originally posted by NHFundamentalsDad:
I am curious where you would possibly think this would happen. Extremely few, if any, top D1 schools are going to take a guy not cracking 90 with no movement.

I don't think it would happen. I know it happens. I've seen it in Big 12 baseball. I've seen big flamethrowers chunk it straight & hard. And often they get racked. But they get quite a few chances.

quote:

Their competition will eat that pitcher alive!

I agree, and never said otherwise.


Sure, hard with good movement is best. That is a no-brainer.

PG, good post.

Whether a 10% change or 12-15 mph change? It makes no difference if you do not have the same consistent motion as your fb. Good hitters will pick up slight differences in the arm motion and instinctively lay off or adjust. The deception is more important than the speed change. jmo

I watched a lot of minor league baseball in the last 3 seasons and I can tell you that there are many guys throwing 84 mph who are succesful and moving up in organizations. At the pro level, walking people is not an option and teams will make you pay. Another thing that I have noticed is that straight fb's go far. Very far!