Bighit15,
How is your son doing? Where is he pitching these days? Is he enjoying the journey?
It's good to see you back here posting lately.
Jason
Flip, u have a pm
If anyone gets Collegiate Baseball (great publication), there is an article in the most recent issue about throwing a changeup and a great article from Perry Husband on pitching locations and the speed differences hitters perceive at different locations. For example, a 90 MPH fastball will appear to a hitter to be 94 high and inside, but 86 MPH low and outside.
Check those articles out if you can.
Check those articles out if you can.
William & Mary, Gardner-Webb, Western Carolina, Furman, and ACC schools.
The above ( I am just naming a few) had some starting pitchers that did not hit the coveted 87-90. The slower pitching really threw our guys off and a few times cost us the game, it threw off their timing so bad, they had a hard time trying to catch up the last few innings.
Those are D1 schools, right?
I do beleive, the MVP of the ACC tourney and what was to become one of our most effective pitchers in the end, does not hit the high 80's.
Listen to Bighit, you need to have the same consistant motion as your fastball in your CU, deception is the key.
Straight FB's go far in college too!
The above ( I am just naming a few) had some starting pitchers that did not hit the coveted 87-90. The slower pitching really threw our guys off and a few times cost us the game, it threw off their timing so bad, they had a hard time trying to catch up the last few innings.
Those are D1 schools, right?
I do beleive, the MVP of the ACC tourney and what was to become one of our most effective pitchers in the end, does not hit the high 80's.
Listen to Bighit, you need to have the same consistant motion as your fastball in your CU, deception is the key.
Straight FB's go far in college too!
Back at you Bighit15!
Jason
Jason
I know you don't have to throw high 80's to get people out. You have to be able to throw high
80's to get the OPPORTUNITY to get people out.
TPM,
The recruiter I was referring to was from one of the ACC schools. Maybe he wasn't being truthful to me but I don't know of any reason for him not to be when he said they do not even look at a pitcher that can't hit high 80's.
80's to get the OPPORTUNITY to get people out.
TPM,
The recruiter I was referring to was from one of the ACC schools. Maybe he wasn't being truthful to me but I don't know of any reason for him not to be when he said they do not even look at a pitcher that can't hit high 80's.
quote:Originally posted by mm77:
I know you don't have to throw high 80's to get people out. You have to be able to throw high
80's to get the OPPORTUNITY to get people out.
TPM,
The recruiter I was referring to was from one of the ACC schools. Maybe he wasn't being truthful to me but I don't know of any reason for him not to be when he said they do not even look at a pitcher that can't hit high 80's.
That may very well be true, that coach may not look at anyone who doesn't throw high 80's.
If you think that what I am saying MIGHT be wrong, I know for a fact there are pitchers in the ACC who are mid 80 guys. And there are many hitters who are NOT HR hitters.
Yes, most ACC schools go after the high velocity guys, I don't deny that.
If a coach told you the above,and I don't know your situation if you were being recruited or which school you are referring to, maybe he was telling you it was time to move on.
As a parent or player, and I have been guilty of it myself, sometimes it's easy to blame the fact that there is no interest due to lack of velocity.
I remember something someone said once about being a college player. There are soooo many out there to choose from, and the coaches get the choice. You have to be different, something has to set you apart from the rest for him to make a choice. Movement on a FB or high velocity doesn't set one apart from the rest. JMO.
I think that most parents of players (OR PLAYERS) who have set foot on a college field will agree. Once you get there everyone is basically the same, then you begin to work on some things that will set you apart from others,so you can be a starter instead of a reliever or not sit out a year. The recruiting process is no different, you may be a stud in HS compared to your peers, once you get to campus, most likely not anymore.
I'll tell you one story about a transfer we had at Clemson, BIG, hard throwing 95 FB and deadly slider. He was a leader in his conference prior. He had little control, his 95 mph FB were hit often. He was supposed to be a top closer. He was given opportunities, but in the end when the starters got tired, the softer tossing control, movement, deceptive guy got the job and got it done.
From the man known as Bighit
I could feel you flinching when I read that.
quote:Another thing that I have noticed is that straight fb's go far. Very far!
I could feel you flinching when I read that.
Some of you guys are giving me hope!
I'm told that my control pitcher just needs to be seen by the right guy to get a chance to pitch in college and from what I'm hearing here there may be some of the right guys out there after all. I just pray to God that he gets that chance.(can I say that here?)We aren't even considering D1's , just trying to fit in somewhere. The only thing I know for sure is that the softer throwing movement guy or control pitcher needs to be seen in games getting people out, showcases won't do him any good at all. As bighit 15 eluded to , you can't defend a walk and somewhere I saw a chart I wish I could find that told the percentages of walks that score based on what batter they where in the inning, I wish I knew where I saw that.(if the 1st batter in an inning walks it was over a 90% chance he would go on to score)
As in life I guess it takes all kinds (of pitchers!) to make it through.
I'm told that my control pitcher just needs to be seen by the right guy to get a chance to pitch in college and from what I'm hearing here there may be some of the right guys out there after all. I just pray to God that he gets that chance.(can I say that here?)We aren't even considering D1's , just trying to fit in somewhere. The only thing I know for sure is that the softer throwing movement guy or control pitcher needs to be seen in games getting people out, showcases won't do him any good at all. As bighit 15 eluded to , you can't defend a walk and somewhere I saw a chart I wish I could find that told the percentages of walks that score based on what batter they where in the inning, I wish I knew where I saw that.(if the 1st batter in an inning walks it was over a 90% chance he would go on to score)
As in life I guess it takes all kinds (of pitchers!) to make it through.
achance,
If a pitcher is truly talented, going to showcase type events can help. It's not just the DI schools who follow things.
When someone says "soft" throwing pitcher, I'm not sure what that means. I understand the velocity is not the major strength, but "soft" throwers to some are low to mid 80s, to others it could mean 70 to 80.
As others have mentioned, there is a place for any pitcher who can consistently get hitters out.
If I were a small college coach looking at players who attended showcases, the 90+ guys are not the target. I wouldn't eliminate those pitchers from recruiting list, but the target is those who can really play and win, but won't be on every DI list.
One more thing... With lots of experience people get kind of a 6th sense about projecting players and pitchers. A few years ago we saw a LHP from Miami throwing 74 mph. We graded him very high based on what we saw. 3 years later as a freshman in Junior College he was up to 93 mph. Also, a few years ago, LSU offered a good scholarship to a low 80s 6'0 RHP. He had one of the best breaking balls in the country.
Velocity is important and desirable, but it doesn't stand alone.
If a pitcher is truly talented, going to showcase type events can help. It's not just the DI schools who follow things.
When someone says "soft" throwing pitcher, I'm not sure what that means. I understand the velocity is not the major strength, but "soft" throwers to some are low to mid 80s, to others it could mean 70 to 80.
As others have mentioned, there is a place for any pitcher who can consistently get hitters out.
If I were a small college coach looking at players who attended showcases, the 90+ guys are not the target. I wouldn't eliminate those pitchers from recruiting list, but the target is those who can really play and win, but won't be on every DI list.
One more thing... With lots of experience people get kind of a 6th sense about projecting players and pitchers. A few years ago we saw a LHP from Miami throwing 74 mph. We graded him very high based on what we saw. 3 years later as a freshman in Junior College he was up to 93 mph. Also, a few years ago, LSU offered a good scholarship to a low 80s 6'0 RHP. He had one of the best breaking balls in the country.
Velocity is important and desirable, but it doesn't stand alone.
achance,
In addition, I do think the quality pitcher who lacks velocity is best off seen pitching in actual games rather than showcases.
Problem is... most actual games don't have the right people watching. It really is kind of a dilemma as to the best way to get the job done.
In addition, I do think the quality pitcher who lacks velocity is best off seen pitching in actual games rather than showcases.
Problem is... most actual games don't have the right people watching. It really is kind of a dilemma as to the best way to get the job done.
YOU ARE SO RIGHT AGAIN PG!
achance,
As I have said in a couple of forums on this board, my son who is a senior lefty was clocked at 84 at his last showcase. His high school coach was told by a couple of D1 schools they loved his mechanics, he had an above average curve and changeup and really liked his quick arm action. Another school said he was sneaky fast. They also said they would like to see another 2-3 mph on his fastball. As for actual contact from any of these schools there has been none. I guess my point is, velocity rules and always will. Not to get discouraged though as he still has his whole senior season to prove he can pitch at the next level.
As I have said in a couple of forums on this board, my son who is a senior lefty was clocked at 84 at his last showcase. His high school coach was told by a couple of D1 schools they loved his mechanics, he had an above average curve and changeup and really liked his quick arm action. Another school said he was sneaky fast. They also said they would like to see another 2-3 mph on his fastball. As for actual contact from any of these schools there has been none. I guess my point is, velocity rules and always will. Not to get discouraged though as he still has his whole senior season to prove he can pitch at the next level.
PG "soft throwers" is the opposite of "hard throwers".
The announcers who were using this term were referring to guys throwing FB at 70-78 range at the time. RJ Swindle is a soft thrower who is an ammazing pitcher. Guys like Jeff Francis who threw 80 as a colleg freshman and couldn't get an offer from a US college. There was a pitcher for the Dodgers last night who couldn't get an offer from any Cal/ Florida schools that he wanted to attend. If you try to make sense of baseball good luck. There were a couple soft throwers pitching in the Mets game. One was Glavin and the announcer referred to these relatively soft throwers as pitchers who couldn't blow the ball by anyone but they did time after time.
The secrets to pitching are throwing strikes,keeping the ball down, mixing speeds and location. It is also exciting to see a guy throw 103mph and just over power batters.
Achance get your son into the best competition you can. Preferrably guys who are at an equal or higher level than D1 NCAA. Take videos of these high level outtings and use them to get interest from schools.
The announcers who were using this term were referring to guys throwing FB at 70-78 range at the time. RJ Swindle is a soft thrower who is an ammazing pitcher. Guys like Jeff Francis who threw 80 as a colleg freshman and couldn't get an offer from a US college. There was a pitcher for the Dodgers last night who couldn't get an offer from any Cal/ Florida schools that he wanted to attend. If you try to make sense of baseball good luck. There were a couple soft throwers pitching in the Mets game. One was Glavin and the announcer referred to these relatively soft throwers as pitchers who couldn't blow the ball by anyone but they did time after time.
The secrets to pitching are throwing strikes,keeping the ball down, mixing speeds and location. It is also exciting to see a guy throw 103mph and just over power batters.
Achance get your son into the best competition you can. Preferrably guys who are at an equal or higher level than D1 NCAA. Take videos of these high level outtings and use them to get interest from schools.
i think different schools need different things .smaller schools no money need a pitcher that can play someplace else,and not hurt you.or hit etc.
but from all i've seen velocity gets you there,movement keeps you there.imho
but from all i've seen velocity gets you there,movement keeps you there.imho
quote:Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
The secrets to pitching are ... keeping the ball down...
Can't quite agree on that one. Some hitters can't handle fb's up & in. Others will chase the high one just above zone all day long. There are times to work up. But the pitch thrown up must be thrown with a purpose.
I agree. Pitchers who live around the thighs and knees generally do much better. Batters do chase High FBs and I did not mean that you never go high. It also doesn't mean you won't get tagged if you live between the thighs and knees either. It is much harder to line up a low pitch and make solid contact.
quote:Originally posted by CatchingCoach05:
If anyone gets Collegiate Baseball (great publication), there is an article in the most recent issue about throwing a changeup and a great article from Perry Husband on pitching locations and the speed differences hitters perceive at different locations. For example, a 90 MPH fastball will appear to a hitter to be 94 high and inside, but 86 MPH low and outside.
Check those articles out if you can.
The more interesting research that Husband (and others) did is about the consequences of throwing "at-risk pitches" and how understanding effective velocity can help you avoid at-risk pitches.
BobbleheadDoll,
Which D1 school does your son pitch at? Is it down here in the states or up in Canada?
Jason
Which D1 school does your son pitch at? Is it down here in the states or up in Canada?
Jason
He is at Charleston Southern.
Here are some gun readings from a major Big 12 program. I saw the stalker displays on all, except the one so noted.
Fr. 88-90 cruising, peaked at 92. Fall.
Fr. 88, cruising. Same pitcher, but in the spring.
So. 91-93
Jr. 86-88
Jr. 86-91, as reported by the announcer.
Sr. 84-86
When recruited, all but the last were touted as 90+ mph guys. I am not sure about him.
FWIW
Fr. 88-90 cruising, peaked at 92. Fall.
Fr. 88, cruising. Same pitcher, but in the spring.
So. 91-93
Jr. 86-88
Jr. 86-91, as reported by the announcer.
Sr. 84-86
When recruited, all but the last were touted as 90+ mph guys. I am not sure about him.
FWIW
Lefty or righty? At a camp at TAMU, Childress told the guys that they won't even look at a RHP under 88. I think he said the cut off for LHP was about 3 mph less.
As it happens, all are RHP.
I got to see Arizona State play Nevada in a tournament last season at a stadium where the pitch speed was shown on the scoreboard. Nevada threw a pitcher who topped out at 79. The Sun Devils couldn't hit him. At the same time, ASU threw their hardest thrower - he frequently hit the mid 90's. He got hit hard.
Not saying this is typical but it does happen. Can't comment on pitch types or sequencing.
Not saying this is typical but it does happen. Can't comment on pitch types or sequencing.
Please look at Photo posted in Pitching and throwing before reading.
Sample of how I currently help pitchers understand how to make the most of their velocity by seeing and understanding shapes and how and why they happen. The ability to throw hard is one aspect, making the most of what you have is the real goal.
Frankly, most movement that is produced by amateur pitchers is termed false run, produced by early pronation at release, caused by a mechanical flaw and/or early acceleration (flat run) Most kids that have average velocity will get hitters out with false run, (amateur hitters tend to get themselves out) and some big league pitchers use false run because they can produce a high velocity. To get pro hitters out with average professional velocity, 2 plane downward movement is what is needed; this can be taught and is being taught. Ever wonder how Mad Dog and D Lowe get their fastball to “checkmark down” on the outside part of the plate? Players, amateur coaches and most lower level scouts pigeon hole the fastball and think of it as one dimensional. Professional pitching coaches and scouting directors embrace the concept of multiple planes, shapes and speeds. Because it gets hitters out game after game, year after year. If a kid learns to produce planes and shapes with his fastball (no matter the velocity) then they will be able to throw more strike, less pitches and ultimately get outs. (Not to mention enhance the use of off speed pitches)
jupdike@championssportscomplex.com
Sample of how I currently help pitchers understand how to make the most of their velocity by seeing and understanding shapes and how and why they happen. The ability to throw hard is one aspect, making the most of what you have is the real goal.
Frankly, most movement that is produced by amateur pitchers is termed false run, produced by early pronation at release, caused by a mechanical flaw and/or early acceleration (flat run) Most kids that have average velocity will get hitters out with false run, (amateur hitters tend to get themselves out) and some big league pitchers use false run because they can produce a high velocity. To get pro hitters out with average professional velocity, 2 plane downward movement is what is needed; this can be taught and is being taught. Ever wonder how Mad Dog and D Lowe get their fastball to “checkmark down” on the outside part of the plate? Players, amateur coaches and most lower level scouts pigeon hole the fastball and think of it as one dimensional. Professional pitching coaches and scouting directors embrace the concept of multiple planes, shapes and speeds. Because it gets hitters out game after game, year after year. If a kid learns to produce planes and shapes with his fastball (no matter the velocity) then they will be able to throw more strike, less pitches and ultimately get outs. (Not to mention enhance the use of off speed pitches)
jupdike@championssportscomplex.com
This topic is one of high interest on my part due to the fact that I'm a pitcher.
I don't throw hard... and I know it. Reasons for the lack of speed are (most likely) due to my overall body composition, and overuse as a kid (12-15).
I was always the ace on my team because I had an ability to control multiple pitches. As of last year, on a top 16 year old team (Dallas Tigers) in my area I still was the ace. I didn't throw hard, but 4 pitches and a sinker gets the job done. I understand that the big colleges probably won't look at me, and I understand that I don't "project," but I've got to think sometime results will count for something.
For any parent of a younger player, here's my advice: don't overuse a kid when he's young (maybe not even start pitching until he's 14-15) and immediately teach the importance of command and movement on all pitches. This will lead to velocity, and the understanding that movement is key. I think everyone would love a guy throwing 95+ that has a nasty sink on it.
Just a question for someone who may know: what are the typical velocities at smaller schools? Smaller schools is left open to interpretation intentionally so please (if answered) specify what school/division/etc.
I don't throw hard... and I know it. Reasons for the lack of speed are (most likely) due to my overall body composition, and overuse as a kid (12-15).
I was always the ace on my team because I had an ability to control multiple pitches. As of last year, on a top 16 year old team (Dallas Tigers) in my area I still was the ace. I didn't throw hard, but 4 pitches and a sinker gets the job done. I understand that the big colleges probably won't look at me, and I understand that I don't "project," but I've got to think sometime results will count for something.
For any parent of a younger player, here's my advice: don't overuse a kid when he's young (maybe not even start pitching until he's 14-15) and immediately teach the importance of command and movement on all pitches. This will lead to velocity, and the understanding that movement is key. I think everyone would love a guy throwing 95+ that has a nasty sink on it.
Just a question for someone who may know: what are the typical velocities at smaller schools? Smaller schools is left open to interpretation intentionally so please (if answered) specify what school/division/etc.
It isn't necessary to delay pitching until 14YO to still have a good arm in HS. And pitching at 9-13YO doesn't have to be abuse.
What is necessary, IMHO, is that:
1. Pitch count limits be used (ASMI recommendations are a good starting place). These should take into account how good are the kid's mechanics.
2. Adequate rest between outings be provided.
3. Some downtime be provided each year (e.g., a couple of months of not pitching).
4. Lay off curves until the kid is at least 13 or 14. And use them sparingly once he starts throwing them. Along with proper mechanics, of course.
5. Forget the slider altogether.
6. Sound mechanics are taught.
7. Jobe exercises are faithfully used.
8. The pitcher is taught that most pitches are thrown at slightly less than full effort. Saving 100% effort for that one or two pitches a game when it is needed.
Observing these things will result in a pitcher who will have a live arm in HS. And who also has five or six years of having developed: sound mechanics; mental toughness; pitch strategy; confidence.
JMHO
What is necessary, IMHO, is that:
1. Pitch count limits be used (ASMI recommendations are a good starting place). These should take into account how good are the kid's mechanics.
2. Adequate rest between outings be provided.
3. Some downtime be provided each year (e.g., a couple of months of not pitching).
4. Lay off curves until the kid is at least 13 or 14. And use them sparingly once he starts throwing them. Along with proper mechanics, of course.
5. Forget the slider altogether.
6. Sound mechanics are taught.
7. Jobe exercises are faithfully used.
8. The pitcher is taught that most pitches are thrown at slightly less than full effort. Saving 100% effort for that one or two pitches a game when it is needed.
Observing these things will result in a pitcher who will have a live arm in HS. And who also has five or six years of having developed: sound mechanics; mental toughness; pitch strategy; confidence.
JMHO
DT, if you read this thread in its entirety you will find the answer to your question - sort of. And what that tells you is there is a great deal of variation.
Velocity, location, movement. It takes two out of three to have an effective fastball. If you have good velocity and good location you don't need a lot of movement. If you have good velocity and good movement you don't need great location. If you've got movement and location you don't need great velocity. If you've got 3 out of 3 you've got a great career as a closer. If you've got 3 out of 3 and a good change, curve or slider you've got a career as a frontline starter. If you've got 3 out of 3 and two good off speed pitches welcome to the HOF.
If you want to get noticed you'd better have at least decent velocity relative to the level you are trying to catch on at.
Dtiger,
Agree w/ Texan. Our local DIII had kids throwing in the high 70's along with a kid throwing mid 90s.
If you want to get noticed you'd better have at least decent velocity relative to the level you are trying to catch on at.
Dtiger,
Agree w/ Texan. Our local DIII had kids throwing in the high 70's along with a kid throwing mid 90s.
Champions1, glad to see you're posting here. Your rep in the area is well known and respected. I have experimented with young pitchers 15-18 with working on multiple planes, down movement and changing fastball grips. It has produced positive results with those that grasp it, work hard at it, and are willing to abandon the ways of a youth pitcher. I am always interested in reading more on this subject. Maybe we'll get to speak in the near future.
I was lazy and tried reading, but only had a short span of time and I didn't want to forget my question. Now that I have had time to read the thread completely, I understand.
Baseball is such a science.
Texan- I fully agree with your philosophy, but I know as I'm sure you do, every kid wants to win. When I was younger, I begged coaches to put me in when the game was on the line because I knew I could get the job done. I didn't fully grasp what I was doing at the time. I had a coach tell me recently a theory on pitching at the younger levels (and this sometimes happens but maybe not intetionally/enough). He said each pitcher must have different roles. If the kid has started a few games (adequate rest of course), he needs to be a closer one game, or a middle relief guy. In general, this limits innings so a kid isn't always the starter trying to go the entire game, and it teaches kids situations and how to deal with pressure. Looking back I made mistakes with my own arm because at the time I could do it, and I was successful. I have nobody to blame for my arm today. Who's to say it maybe I just wasn't meant to throw 90+. In a subtle disagreement, I'll say that if curve balls are used sparingly (being about 1/8 of the time they are used in the LLWS), and with proper mechanics, I see no reason a kid can't throw a curve when he's 12 or 13. The problem comes in that proper mechanics for a curve are hard to teach a kid that young.
Baseball is such a science.
Texan- I fully agree with your philosophy, but I know as I'm sure you do, every kid wants to win. When I was younger, I begged coaches to put me in when the game was on the line because I knew I could get the job done. I didn't fully grasp what I was doing at the time. I had a coach tell me recently a theory on pitching at the younger levels (and this sometimes happens but maybe not intetionally/enough). He said each pitcher must have different roles. If the kid has started a few games (adequate rest of course), he needs to be a closer one game, or a middle relief guy. In general, this limits innings so a kid isn't always the starter trying to go the entire game, and it teaches kids situations and how to deal with pressure. Looking back I made mistakes with my own arm because at the time I could do it, and I was successful. I have nobody to blame for my arm today. Who's to say it maybe I just wasn't meant to throw 90+. In a subtle disagreement, I'll say that if curve balls are used sparingly (being about 1/8 of the time they are used in the LLWS), and with proper mechanics, I see no reason a kid can't throw a curve when he's 12 or 13. The problem comes in that proper mechanics for a curve are hard to teach a kid that young.
But DT, the problem didn't lie with you. The problem was with the coaches. I didn't care how much a kid begged to be left in, if he was at his pitch count limit he came out. Regardless of your request or the situation, the coaches should have cut you off.
The curve should wait until the body and joints have matured more. This typically begins at 13 or 14. Besides, up to that time the young pitcher has his hands full trying to get down the pitches that are thrown with fastball mechanics (e.g., various fb grips and c/u).
Playing it safe and waiting another year or two to start the curve will not be detrimental at all to the young pitcher.
The curve should wait until the body and joints have matured more. This typically begins at 13 or 14. Besides, up to that time the young pitcher has his hands full trying to get down the pitches that are thrown with fastball mechanics (e.g., various fb grips and c/u).
Playing it safe and waiting another year or two to start the curve will not be detrimental at all to the young pitcher.
CaDad,
Excellent analysis.
Excellent analysis.
every youth program coach wants to win.most don't mean to cause harm to kids.that said i believe most don't know the damage they can cause by over use of a kid. i've allways said before the season, give every coach a three foot trophy and lets teach baseball.
quote:Originally posted by 20dad:
i've allways said before the season, give every coach a three foot trophy and lets teach baseball.
Collegiate Magazine has a very good read (article) on the eyes, location and the fastball.
I agree with what everyone is saying. I am a lefty so I have the movement but I dont have the velocity that many of the harder throwing right handers have. I noticed on my legion team that because of this I never get as many chances to pitch but I still have one of the greatest chances of getting a hitter out because of my ability to hide my pitches, change up the pitches and control the strike zone. I am moving on to college and moving to a different legion team this summer and have specifically told both coaches that I dont have the velocity that some guys have but I have the ability to get hitters out so hopefully they will give me a shot and not overlook me like so many other coaches have.
DPHS.. what is your cruising speed? Top speed? Why do you not have velocity? Hopefully, you are on a solid long-toss program.
Location, movement,......and deception. Not enough pitchers have deception anymore. Deliveries have become very cookie cutter, giving the same looks to hitters.
quote:Location, movement,......and deception. Not enough pitchers have deception anymore. Deliveries have become very cookie cutter, giving the same looks to hitters.
deemax, Not to argue but did you purposely leave out velocity? To me a 90 mph fast ball can be pretty deceptive especially when the pitcher has the ability to throw the 80 mph changeup with the same arm action.
