As I have stated in a couple of post, my son is that soft tossing lefty (83-84). He is a 2007 and signed a NLI with a D1 school. They saw him pitch maybe a couple of times in Fall Showcases (never in high school) and signed him because of his "Great upside" which I would think is the same as "projectability.
While I agree that velo is the most important factor in getting noticed, it just takes that one school that looks beyond velo to get that shot. Once he gets that shot and starts working with the college coaches, the kids full potential will be brought out IMO!
quote:Originally posted by Texan:
Exactly what constitutes a "high level throw"?
What leads to you believe that learning how to pitch and developing a high level throw are mutually exclusive? Or even that the former is in any away detrimental to the latter?
I would have to say that they are not mutually exclusive. And that the former is not in any way detrimental to the latter.
High level (to me) = 94 and above. From a developmental standpoint it may be counterproductive to concentrate on throwing strikes alone.
quote:
Control is a product of repeatable and sound mechanics. If good mechanics are being taught and utilized, the control will follow (up to the point that a given pitcher is capable).
Agreed.
quote:
And it seems to me that PG was addressing a different topic. And I believe he was saying that is that control is better when the pitcher is not exerting 100% effort.
Assume that pitcher A is capable of throwing 95 with max effort while pitcher B is capable of throwing 90 with max effort. Then you would expect pitcher A to have better control that pitcher B when both are throwing 90. Perhaps he will enlighten us further.
I agree with this also.
Look at it this way. Learning to throw hard is like laying the foundation from where all the other aspects of pitching (or any throwing really) can begin. Like baking a cake. You need some cake before you can put on the icing.
Personally I look at it like this. Learn to pitch with sound mechanics. Learn to locate and throw all your pitches at anytime in the count. As you grow and get stronger and continue to work at it the velocity will increase. As a coach it does me no good to put a kid on the hill that is just trying to throw the heck out of the ball and can not get anyone out. I dont care how hard you throw if you can not throw strikes and locate your pitches you are just a hard thrower not a pitcher.
So the only high level throw is one 94 mph or more?
Wow. That rules out a good portion of the MLB'ers. The vast majority of the college pitchers.
Personally, I could never accept a definition of "high level throw" that is solely based upon speed.
IMHO, at the younger ages the focus should be on mechanics. And begin laying a foundation for the mental side of the game.
Mental toughness is much easier to come by if taught to pitchers as they start out. I've seen youngsters who seemed to have great potential quit pitching for lack of mental toughness. The incredibly tough, resilient confidence required to be a successful pitcher takes years to develop. And as Tommy Lasorda said, mental toughness is the one thing EVERY pitcher MUST have to be successful. Without it, nothing else matters and failure will follow.
Would you agree that maximizing velocity requires good mechanics?
Tell a youngster (e.g., 9YO-12YO) to throw as hard as he can, and in almost every case he will exert maximum effort while his mechanics go to pot. And he will build habits and muscle memory that can be anywhere from difficult to impossible to correct. Wrong way to develop a pitcher IMHO.
On the other hand. If a pitcher has developed good mechanics, but is not exerting enough effort, this can be corrected with relative ease.
Think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.
Wow. That rules out a good portion of the MLB'ers. The vast majority of the college pitchers.
Personally, I could never accept a definition of "high level throw" that is solely based upon speed.
IMHO, at the younger ages the focus should be on mechanics. And begin laying a foundation for the mental side of the game.
Mental toughness is much easier to come by if taught to pitchers as they start out. I've seen youngsters who seemed to have great potential quit pitching for lack of mental toughness. The incredibly tough, resilient confidence required to be a successful pitcher takes years to develop. And as Tommy Lasorda said, mental toughness is the one thing EVERY pitcher MUST have to be successful. Without it, nothing else matters and failure will follow.
Would you agree that maximizing velocity requires good mechanics?
Tell a youngster (e.g., 9YO-12YO) to throw as hard as he can, and in almost every case he will exert maximum effort while his mechanics go to pot. And he will build habits and muscle memory that can be anywhere from difficult to impossible to correct. Wrong way to develop a pitcher IMHO.
On the other hand. If a pitcher has developed good mechanics, but is not exerting enough effort, this can be corrected with relative ease.
Think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.
quote:On the other hand. If a pitcher has developed good mechanics, but is not exerting enough effort, this can be corrected with relative ease
Texan,
I think in some cases you are exactly right. I know in my sons case, he has had outstanding mechanics for a few years now (so I've been told) and have been told not to let anyone change them just to increase velocity. On the other hand, he does throw with very little effort, or so it seems, and I think that with the proper coaching he can both maintain his mechanics and exert more effort resulting in more velocity. I have seen this lack of exert in a few kids and it seems like the majority of them are lefties.
tguf, sending you a PM.
Guess I wasn’t agreeing or disagreeing with anyone. Just trying to give an opinion that kind of relates to the subject. It really seems like everyone here is agreeing with each other except for maybe the order of importance. I think it’s all important… one without the other is probably not enough. Don’t know for 100%, but would guess the hall of fame is full of pitchers who did not get there the same way doing the same things.
Yes, I was referring to the amount of effort a pitcher needs to do something. Max effort guys (not all) are generally the ones who can not sustain or repeat their delivery for a long period. They are also more likely to suffer an injury. Some do throw very hard without good command. More often than not the very best (max effort) guys are used as closers or in relief at the highest level.
Most “fans” do not always recognize maximum effort. It’s often confused with high velocity pitchers. We’ve seen high school max effort guys who throw in the 70s. We’ve seen fairly effortless guys throw in the 90s. This “effort” does not necessarily mean “intent” to throw hard. It’s not lack of effort or being lazy physically or mentally. It’s more just how easy or hard it is to accomplish whatever someone is doing.
Of course mechanics play a big roll in everything including velocity, control, etc. even effort in many cases. Max velocity should not be confused with max effort. Some guys throw 90+ with very little obvious effort, others throw 85 with a ton of effort.
The point I was making was… It is so very easy (effortless) for the 90+ guy to throw mid 80s. Kind of like throwing BP for most of us. This allows for more repeatable delivery, less strain on the arm, etc. which leads to better control and more consistency and more longevity. It does not always lead to more or better movement, but it can in some cases. (Maddux)
So regarding velocity importance... For the sake of argument, lets say everyone could have a bit more control, movement, deception, stay healthier, etc, by throwing somewhere less than their maximum velocity. What is more importnat? Velocity or the other stuff without velocity?
Yes, I was referring to the amount of effort a pitcher needs to do something. Max effort guys (not all) are generally the ones who can not sustain or repeat their delivery for a long period. They are also more likely to suffer an injury. Some do throw very hard without good command. More often than not the very best (max effort) guys are used as closers or in relief at the highest level.
Most “fans” do not always recognize maximum effort. It’s often confused with high velocity pitchers. We’ve seen high school max effort guys who throw in the 70s. We’ve seen fairly effortless guys throw in the 90s. This “effort” does not necessarily mean “intent” to throw hard. It’s not lack of effort or being lazy physically or mentally. It’s more just how easy or hard it is to accomplish whatever someone is doing.
Of course mechanics play a big roll in everything including velocity, control, etc. even effort in many cases. Max velocity should not be confused with max effort. Some guys throw 90+ with very little obvious effort, others throw 85 with a ton of effort.
The point I was making was… It is so very easy (effortless) for the 90+ guy to throw mid 80s. Kind of like throwing BP for most of us. This allows for more repeatable delivery, less strain on the arm, etc. which leads to better control and more consistency and more longevity. It does not always lead to more or better movement, but it can in some cases. (Maddux)
So regarding velocity importance... For the sake of argument, lets say everyone could have a bit more control, movement, deception, stay healthier, etc, by throwing somewhere less than their maximum velocity. What is more importnat? Velocity or the other stuff without velocity?
Excellent points, PG.
As to your question, more important to what?
To being successful as a pitcher?
Or to being successful in attracting the attention required to get the opportunity to be successful as a pitcher?
Much easier to have the other stuff and velocity.
As to your question, more important to what?
To being successful as a pitcher?
Or to being successful in attracting the attention required to get the opportunity to be successful as a pitcher?
Much easier to have the other stuff and velocity.
We have reached an agreement!!!!!
It's best to have it all!
It's best to have it all!
quote:This “effort” does not necessarily mean “intent” to throw hard. It’s not lack of effort or being lazy physically or mentally. It’s more just how easy or hard it is to accomplish whatever someone is doing.
This is an interesting discussion. Just curious, how does one determine a max effort guy? Facial expression? Grunts/groans? or is it simply subjective - it looks easier for that guy to throw than the other. It seems there must be some body language that is picked up on by a scout where one prospect would be deemed max effort and another would not. Could you tell it from a photograph or is there just not enough information to make that determination. Just for grins, here is a photo of a pitcher in my son's conference that is a pre-season all-amercian. To me, it looks like there is max effort being expended but maybe that is what makes this kid so good
Texan, one your way.
I've kind of enjoyed this discussion. Thanks to all of you.
Cleveland Dad,
Funny you should bring that up. I actually used to bring bonuculars to see the pitchers face. You bring up a good point/question. Effort really is a combination of many things and it is very subjective. Bobble Heads (not the HSBBW poster) are one sign of a “violent” max effort type delivery. Mike McDougal would be an example in the Big Leagues.
There can be many things that would alert a scout including sound, face, tension/stiffness, and gut feeling. It can be the difference between the smooth, fluid, (effortless) type and the others. Like so many things in scouting, it isn’t really very scientific. Some things are just clues rather than facts. And some people have been successful as a max effort guy.
Easy vs Hard, might be a better comparison
It was very easy for Michael Jordan to dunk a basketball. It wouldn’t take hardly any effort at all.
At one time I could dunk a basketball too, but it took a lot of effort, I don’t remember it being real easy.
If someone were watching, it would have been very obvious who was working the hardest to dunk. Wouldn’t need a formula to figure it out. It wouldn’t be Michael!
So if the basket was raised another 12 inches, Michael could still dunk easily. I wouldn’t be able to touch the rim! But my effort would much higher! 10 foot was my limit, but not his!
Dunking (jumping) in basketball, like arm strength (velocity) in baseball, is very important. Then again the NBA MVP the last two years won’t win any dunking contests. Moral – There is more than one way to be the best! Steve Nash makes the game look very easy in a different way.
Cleveland Dad,
Funny you should bring that up. I actually used to bring bonuculars to see the pitchers face. You bring up a good point/question. Effort really is a combination of many things and it is very subjective. Bobble Heads (not the HSBBW poster) are one sign of a “violent” max effort type delivery. Mike McDougal would be an example in the Big Leagues.
There can be many things that would alert a scout including sound, face, tension/stiffness, and gut feeling. It can be the difference between the smooth, fluid, (effortless) type and the others. Like so many things in scouting, it isn’t really very scientific. Some things are just clues rather than facts. And some people have been successful as a max effort guy.
Easy vs Hard, might be a better comparison
It was very easy for Michael Jordan to dunk a basketball. It wouldn’t take hardly any effort at all.
At one time I could dunk a basketball too, but it took a lot of effort, I don’t remember it being real easy.
If someone were watching, it would have been very obvious who was working the hardest to dunk. Wouldn’t need a formula to figure it out. It wouldn’t be Michael!
So if the basket was raised another 12 inches, Michael could still dunk easily. I wouldn’t be able to touch the rim! But my effort would much higher! 10 foot was my limit, but not his!
Dunking (jumping) in basketball, like arm strength (velocity) in baseball, is very important. Then again the NBA MVP the last two years won’t win any dunking contests. Moral – There is more than one way to be the best! Steve Nash makes the game look very easy in a different way.
PG - thanks for the info - that is kind of what I thought but was not sure. Here is one of Nolan Ryan employing max effort
Seriously, I saw him pitch late in his career at old Cleveland Stadium with a fairly small crowd on hand of less than 10,000. You could hear him grunt or groan on each pitch and the feeling I got was he in fact was putting in max effort.
Seriously, I saw him pitch late in his career at old Cleveland Stadium with a fairly small crowd on hand of less than 10,000. You could hear him grunt or groan on each pitch and the feeling I got was he in fact was putting in max effort.
quote:Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
Seriously, I saw him pitch late in his career at old Cleveland Stadium with a fairly small crowd on hand of less than 10,000. You could hear him grunt or groan on each pitch and the feeling I got was he in fact was putting in max effort.
Just for the record, the key point in the sentence above is that Ryan grunted and groaned when throwing EVERY pitch.
Otherwise, if he only grunted when throwing his fastball it would be a gigantic tell to the hitter about what pitch was on the way.
Cleveland Dad,
I hate to make this sound technical when it isn't, but the actual sound of the grunt or groan can be a clue or it could be misleading. Some are simply making a sound by blowing out air while others sound like they're in serious pain! Sometimes you can get fooled by what is simply the process of exhaling for some.
The better example of this is in tennis.
I hate to make this sound technical when it isn't, but the actual sound of the grunt or groan can be a clue or it could be misleading. Some are simply making a sound by blowing out air while others sound like they're in serious pain! Sometimes you can get fooled by what is simply the process of exhaling for some.
The better example of this is in tennis.
quote:Originally posted by thepainguy:
Just for the record, the key point in the sentence above is that Ryan grunted and groaned when throwing EVERY pitch.
Otherwise, if he only grunted when throwing his fastball it would be a gigantic tell to the hitter about what pitch was on the way.
The ball probably would've been by the guy before he could tell.
