is it the fastball thats deceptive at 90, or is the deception in the change at 80? 90 is truthfully just a good hitting speed if there is no deception. And to answer your question I did leave out velocity on purpose. I feel its fourth on that list.
quote:is it the fastball thats deceptive at 90, or is the deception in the change at 80? 90 is truthfully just a good hitting speed if there is no deception.
I agree that 90 IS a good hitting speed if there is no deception --- but 80 is a BETTER hitting speed if there is no deception. Deception works both ways. The 80 mph change up makes the 90 FB very deceptive and if you're fooled by a 90mph FB you have less time to figure out you've been deceived.
quote:I did leave out velocity on purpose. I feel its fourth on that list.
It is interesting you find velocity so unimportant. Do you think college coaches and pro scouts share your views? Velocity in my opinion is the catalyst that allows all other pitching elements to come to life. Without good velocity MOST pitchers will never achieve effective deception or maximum movement on their pitches. Sure there are exceptions but for every exception there are hundreds of others that find success the conventional way. I am amazed at, and love to watch, soft throwing pitchers that fool batters and achieve success but that won't change the course of history ---- or my way of thinking.
Fungo
Fungo, great response, I put fourth the question to a few friends in the scouting biz and we are talking about younger pitchers hoping to make it to the next level. The scouts take an interest first in the kid with the raw tools, nice explosive fastball, everything else comes into play after that. The thought is, that the arm action and movement can all be developed around a live arm. Not saying a crafty deceptive pitcher isn't also being looked at, just the hard throwing kid with the nice frame that stands 6'5" at 215 is drawing a lot more interest than the sub 6 foot crafty kid.
I never said velocity was unimportant...just fourth. I do feel college coaches and scouts share my opinion. Velocity is the only true measurable tool on a pitcher, the rest is opinion. If someone isnt clear as to what thier looking at the ray reading becomes more important. If you dont agree with me thats OK...but why dont you go ahead and rank them for me with your order (location, movement, deception, velocity). And I dont understand your comment about "the course of history --- or my way of thinking"...pitching at the professional level has deteriorated a great deal over the decades, not just statistically, but physically as well (ex. injuries/ innings/ longevity). Is this the course of history you were refering to? For the record I feel velocity is important.
1. Velocity
2. Location
3. Movement
The deception catagory is a given in pitching (IMHO).
2. Location
3. Movement
The deception catagory is a given in pitching (IMHO).
quote:I never said velocity was unimportant...just fourth. I do feel college coaches and scouts share my opinion
Demax,
Good discussion. Trust me I have no idea what I’m talking about but I still like to discuss this.
I think the main trait a pitcher can have is winning. But just because a pitcher is a winner in high school doesn’t mean he can be a winner in college. Just because he’s a winner in college doesn’t mean he’s a winner in the pros. I think college coaches and pro scouts look at pitcher, evaluate his tools and project whether or not he can win for them. Velocity to me is the most important aspect of a pitcher simply because it is a God given talent and cannot significantly be improved on. A college coach can watch a pitcher in high school, detect a weakness in his control and still sign him thinking he can improve his control. However if that same pitcher even (if he were successful in high school) and lacked velocity, the college coach would be more apt to pass on him because he could not improve his velocity. I think this mentality (or approach) also applies to position players. This ability to see the future is referred to projectability. In my opinion velocity is totally different than movement, deception, and location. Velocity to me is much like a “multiplier” in that it enhances every other tool a pitcher possesses. Increased velocity not only helps the other tools it also creates a greater margin for error in the pitcher that does not have pinpoint accuracy or uncanny movement (except at the highest levels). I will be the first to agree that velocity alone is a worthless tool for a pitcher but that in no way reduces its importance.
Fungo
You can't be a great pitcher with out all the tools. A flat FB is like hitting off a Tee. Anyone knows that at higher levels you do not need 90+ if you are a control pitcher with good CHU,CB slider, etc. You probably won't get the same opportunities that a hard thrower gets as a soft thrower. Scouts do put velo at the top of their list but they will take a chance on a soft thrower with potential to throw harder. The bottom line is that if yor not getting the opportunity where you are playing find a team that will give it to you.
I have noticed over the years that as you increase your velo you tend to lose some movement on your FB.
I have noticed over the years that as you increase your velo you tend to lose some movement on your FB.
[/QUOTE]
Just to pick a nit...
A 10-15 MPH drop between a fastball and a change-up is too much, IMO.
Based on some research I've done into the limits of the human perceptual system and what successful pitchers actually do, a 72 MPH change-up (or 8 MPH drop) is the best complement for an 80 MPH.[/QUOTE]
Tom Seaver and another huge time pitcher I can't recall, agreed with each other that the ideal changeup as 11mph less than FB.
Just to pick a nit...
A 10-15 MPH drop between a fastball and a change-up is too much, IMO.
Based on some research I've done into the limits of the human perceptual system and what successful pitchers actually do, a 72 MPH change-up (or 8 MPH drop) is the best complement for an 80 MPH.[/QUOTE]
Tom Seaver and another huge time pitcher I can't recall, agreed with each other that the ideal changeup as 11mph less than FB.
quote:Just to pick a nit...
Not only that, but how would someone go about determining the ideal CU speed. (for HS? College? Pros?)
The only way I can think to do it (short of spending a lifetime gunning pitchers and cataloging millions of individual pitch results) would be to measure the most common FB/CU speed difference employed by baseball's most effect CU pitchers.
Even that would exclude many other variables. such as accuracy, deception etc.
I think 11.5 mph is best.
Fungo,
I totally agree with you on why the fastball is important, and what it can indicate as far as potential goes. Im not trying to convince anyone that slower is better, although it can be.
Bobblehead,
Not all scouts put velo #1. I know several who would disagree with you. velo has to be there to an extent, but its definetly not the most important thing to the better scouts. Im not saying that you can make chicken salad out of 83mph, but in many cases 88 is a hell of alot better then 91 if the 88 can locate and change speeds as opposed to throwing it 91 with little to no movement or control. If velocity is the most important thing to scouts they should be very worried about thier jobs, because any lemming that can point a stalker and pull the trigger can find the best guys then. I think scouts have a hell of alot more value then that. They hold thier cards pretty close to thier chests.
peace
I totally agree with you on why the fastball is important, and what it can indicate as far as potential goes. Im not trying to convince anyone that slower is better, although it can be.
Bobblehead,
Not all scouts put velo #1. I know several who would disagree with you. velo has to be there to an extent, but its definetly not the most important thing to the better scouts. Im not saying that you can make chicken salad out of 83mph, but in many cases 88 is a hell of alot better then 91 if the 88 can locate and change speeds as opposed to throwing it 91 with little to no movement or control. If velocity is the most important thing to scouts they should be very worried about thier jobs, because any lemming that can point a stalker and pull the trigger can find the best guys then. I think scouts have a hell of alot more value then that. They hold thier cards pretty close to thier chests.
peace
Deemax,
I don’t think we’re that far apart ---- maybe we’re saying the same thing just differently. Thanks for you input.
Fungo
I don’t think we’re that far apart ---- maybe we’re saying the same thing just differently. Thanks for you input.
Fungo
My question would be, if all those scouts don't put big stock into velocity, but temper it with other factors like control... why is Michael Main, the 97 mph flamethrower, being touted as a probable #1 pick? I do not have the trained eye of a scout or even a coach, but in looking at his stats, and seeing him throw flat fastballs over the middle and get whacked all around the park, would lead me to believe that there are a great many scouts that put velocity as their prime requirement with all other aspects a distant second. JMHO based on observation.
Neighborgall would be another example of velocity impressing some scouts.
I know a guy who has 90+ velo and was drafted a few years ago. Every time I saw him pitch he was good for a cpuple innings and then he got blasted. I saw scouts drool over him even though he lost every game I saw him pitch. He has been 2 years in A ball and has double digit ERAs. He also was suspended a few times for behaviourale issues. I could not believe they signed him. I know 2 guys like this but the second guy was released lsat year.
Velo gave them a chance that the 83-84 mph guy probably won't get.
Velo is #1 and you still need the other tools to be successful.
Velo gave them a chance that the 83-84 mph guy probably won't get.
Velo is #1 and you still need the other tools to be successful.
I've been in this discussion before, but here i go again. My son is one of those pitchers who doesn't throw with the highest velocity, but is successful by changing speeds and locations. His ball has great movement and he will hit any location the catcher calls . Also an outstanding changeup.His strikeout to walk ratio has never been less than 3 to 1 . D3 schools are beating down the door , D2's are giving him a sniff. D1 schools won't even speak to him. I think it was Texan who said on this site that velocity gets you the oportunity to show you can pitch. Someone else here has said there are 3 components to pitching , location , movement and velocity, you can be successful with any 2.
I talked to a D1 coach who is very knowledgeable about pitching and he said that all baseball coaches are arrogant. If a guy shows velocity they figure they can fix his mechanical and location problems. He told me that just because a control pitcher gets people out at the high school level doesn't mean he will get people out at the college level or beyond. The control guy has to prove himself every time out. When you find that guy with both velocity and control that is the majic one.(I have seen they are majical to watch)
if you have velocity and not control in my eyes you are a thrower , not a pitcher.
My opinion and observations for what they are worth. (those and a dollar will get you a cup of coffie)
I talked to a D1 coach who is very knowledgeable about pitching and he said that all baseball coaches are arrogant. If a guy shows velocity they figure they can fix his mechanical and location problems. He told me that just because a control pitcher gets people out at the high school level doesn't mean he will get people out at the college level or beyond. The control guy has to prove himself every time out. When you find that guy with both velocity and control that is the majic one.(I have seen they are majical to watch)
if you have velocity and not control in my eyes you are a thrower , not a pitcher.
My opinion and observations for what they are worth. (those and a dollar will get you a cup of coffie)
i have a question, lately i have been throwin only my 2 seamer and have been successful been told from various ppl i have lots of movement on it, and i probly throw it from low to mid 80s (im a sophmore), but i was wonderin if i started throwin my 4 seamer again n possibly gained some velocity would it make a big difference, any opionions?
Your're probably not in the mid 80s which would be very fast for a soph. A 4-seamer may get you another mile or two per hour at the expense of movement. Use it when scouts are gunning youquote:Originally posted by SDbaseball2209:
i probly throw it from low to mid 80s (im a sophmore), but i was wonderin if i started throwin my 4 seamer again n possibly gained some velocity would it make a big difference, any opionions?
My son's FBs are almost all 2 seamers or cutters.You might want to start a new thread on the subject of 2 vs 4 seamers... which to throw and when to throw it.
thanks for your input, and yes i have got that from several people that i most likely do not throw in the mid 80's as a sophmore, but i have pretty big frame...6'4 230, so i think an exception could be made,but i think it would be a good idea to start the new thread thank you
Achance, that was a good post. I think you pretty well summed up the feelings of most people when it comes to velocity and control. However, I do disagree with one thing you have been told.
A pitcher may be give additional opportunities with just velocity and movement (some may consider that success) but you can’t be successful in winning ball games with just velocity and movement. You have to be able to throw strikes.
Fungo
quote:Someone else here has said there are 3 components to pitching, location, movement and velocity, you can be successful with any 2.
A pitcher may be give additional opportunities with just velocity and movement (some may consider that success) but you can’t be successful in winning ball games with just velocity and movement. You have to be able to throw strikes.
Fungo
You should arrange to be gunned if you think you can hit 84-85. I was just going on the odds that perhaps 5% of sophs are that fast, but it is more common with your big size. Be aware that most pitchers overestimate how fast they throw. (parents, for sure)quote:SDbaseball2209
I think its important for a pitcher to know how fast he throws. Most accurate 83+ mph HS pitchers I've seen can dominate if they can do other things tolerably well. The bulk of kids, those in the mid-high 70s, will have to perfect the other skills to do well in HS.
Furthermore, knowing your speed will important in looking at college teams next year. With your size it would pay to invest in a quality instructor, one with a gun and some college connections. This is the time to do it.
achance,
I am in agreement with Fungo, to sum it all up that was a very good post.
You do NOT have to hit 90 to pitch in college. You do need the velocity to get noticed to pitch at the larger programs. I am not sure about the arrogant part, but very few pitching coaches have time to wait for a pitcher's velocity to increase. You cannot teach velocity but you can teach to throw and improve certain pitches.
Just a quick story, two pitchers I know, one very tall hard thrower (95) who did not do too well his draft year, another ace starter who had a great year his draft year (lives in the high 80's zone but hits 90+). More of a finesse type of pitcher who got people out and won. The second pitcher mentioned was everything you would want in a college pitcher.
Guess which one got drafted before the other?
I am in agreement with Fungo, to sum it all up that was a very good post.
You do NOT have to hit 90 to pitch in college. You do need the velocity to get noticed to pitch at the larger programs. I am not sure about the arrogant part, but very few pitching coaches have time to wait for a pitcher's velocity to increase. You cannot teach velocity but you can teach to throw and improve certain pitches.
Just a quick story, two pitchers I know, one very tall hard thrower (95) who did not do too well his draft year, another ace starter who had a great year his draft year (lives in the high 80's zone but hits 90+). More of a finesse type of pitcher who got people out and won. The second pitcher mentioned was everything you would want in a college pitcher.
Guess which one got drafted before the other?
quote:You cannot teach velocity but you can teach to throw and improve certain pitches.
Lots of people believe this but it is absolutely false.
If you look at the top 20 active winners in major league baseball, 11 are guys who only have average (86-90) velocity. Many of them were high picks out of HS or College. Success is winning, and if you keep winning you will end up in the big leagues.
BBHD is correct, IMHO. From my observations, once players reach 17 or so, command cannot necessarily be taught without sacrificing velocity. And sometimes not even then.
quote:Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:quote:You cannot teach velocity but you can teach to throw and improve certain pitches.
Lots of people believe this but it is absolutely false.
I agree.
I have seen lots of guys whose mechanics were horrible and were holding them back.
Good mechanics are about using the body efficiently, and not everyone knows or figures out how to do that on their own.
bbscout I have been to 50-60 mlb camps. Usually without my son. I have seen the scouts reactions to the hard throwers and over whelmingly they get the most attention.
The last MLB camp my son attended was put on by the Royals. Each pitcher got 2 innings against college or pro level batters. My son set down all 6 batters striking out 3 including a guy who was just released by a minor league team after 3 years and a guy from Wake Forest. All the rest were from colleges all over the US. He was the only one who did not allow a base runner. He was hitting 82-83.
The guy who got all the interest was a guy who hit 90 and struggles through his 2 innings.
I was at a college showcase just before my son went to college a 90+ guy who I have know for years
was there he struggled through his 2 innings and was pulled with 1 out. My son was sentout and struck out the next 2 batters. Guess who got the bulk of the interest? this guy had spent 2 unsuccessful years at a D111 JC. In fairness my son was already to commit to a school and I know they knew that but there were others who performed much better than that guy did. At the end of the 3 day camp he had more recruiters around him than anyother pitcher.
My son has been carded (As I call it) by several ML teams but only when he hits 83-84. They all talk about getting his velo up.
The last MLB camp my son attended was put on by the Royals. Each pitcher got 2 innings against college or pro level batters. My son set down all 6 batters striking out 3 including a guy who was just released by a minor league team after 3 years and a guy from Wake Forest. All the rest were from colleges all over the US. He was the only one who did not allow a base runner. He was hitting 82-83.
The guy who got all the interest was a guy who hit 90 and struggles through his 2 innings.
I was at a college showcase just before my son went to college a 90+ guy who I have know for years
was there he struggled through his 2 innings and was pulled with 1 out. My son was sentout and struck out the next 2 batters. Guess who got the bulk of the interest? this guy had spent 2 unsuccessful years at a D111 JC. In fairness my son was already to commit to a school and I know they knew that but there were others who performed much better than that guy did. At the end of the 3 day camp he had more recruiters around him than anyother pitcher.
My son has been carded (As I call it) by several ML teams but only when he hits 83-84. They all talk about getting his velo up.
Question - If velocity is mostly inherent, and location/movement is so easily taught, then why is it not achieved by most pitchers in High School? Please don't say it's because if the high school coach. Perhaps it's not as easy to be accurate and/or move the ball as some might think. Maybe location and movement are what many pitchers sacrifice in order to maintain the higher velocity. Perhaps there are few that can do all three for any length of time. Just a point to ponder...
Sure is nice to have both movement & velocity, though...
quote:Originally posted by bbscout:
If you look at the top 20 active winners in major league baseball, 11 are guys who only have average (86-90) velocity. Many of them were high picks out of HS or College. Success is winning, and if you keep winning you will end up in the big leagues.
As high picks out of HS or college, was their velocity high, I mean did they hit over 90?
I understand that most major league pitchers live in the 86-90 zone, but did the start out lower or higher?
I am not a pitching coach so I am not going to argue with anyone. Proper mechanics and adjustments can raise the velocity, but it it not something you can teach. If we could ever HS kid in america would be pitching 90's!
JMO.I do beleive that redhead touches on a great point.
quote:Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:quote:Originally posted by bbscout:
If you look at the top 20 active winners in major league baseball, 11 are guys who only have average (86-90) velocity. Many of them were high picks out of HS or College. Success is winning, and if you keep winning you will end up in the big leagues.
As high picks out of HS or college, was their velocity high, I mean did they hit over 90?
I understand that most major league pitchers live in the 86-90 zone, but did the start out lower or higher?
I am not a pitching coach so I am not going to argue with anyone. Proper mechanics and adjustments can raise the velocity, but it it not something you can teach. If we could ever HS kid in america would be pitching 90's!
Greg Maddux was able to hit the low 90s when he was in HS.
I find that proper mechanics, and thus velocity, are in fact teachable (assuming the student is willing to listen). As a result, you can boost a kid's velocity, especially if their mechanics are very inefficient. However, things like genetics, conditioning, and work ethic will limit where a guy tops out.
Also, makeup-related issues will determine whether a guy's control will hold up as his velocity rises.
I have seen many guys gain big velo during their college years.
Mechanics are very important but assuming body type is good I feel the most important thing is maturation and proper muscle develpment. You need some horse power to get it moving. The guy I know best who has reached the highest level is Jeff Francis. He struggled to hit 80 in his freshman year and through hard work hit 90s. He was a great pitcher even before he went to college.
I do believe that trying to maintain velo can hurt your control. Many pitchers are more comfortable backing off a bit to beable to feel the ball better. Finger pressore is a big part of control. A
pitcher developes a feel for his pitches and applies finger pressure on the ball to try and achieve the results he wants.
One of my friends who just made the Pirates 40 man roster was a hard thrower who had this control. He attributed his velocity to playing hockey for years and developing his lower body. A lot of kids don't like working out let alone on their lower body. This could explain how some blossom after a couple years of college where they have to workout all facets of their body. They learn how to use their lower body properly.
Mechanics are very important but assuming body type is good I feel the most important thing is maturation and proper muscle develpment. You need some horse power to get it moving. The guy I know best who has reached the highest level is Jeff Francis. He struggled to hit 80 in his freshman year and through hard work hit 90s. He was a great pitcher even before he went to college.
I do believe that trying to maintain velo can hurt your control. Many pitchers are more comfortable backing off a bit to beable to feel the ball better. Finger pressore is a big part of control. A
pitcher developes a feel for his pitches and applies finger pressure on the ball to try and achieve the results he wants.
One of my friends who just made the Pirates 40 man roster was a hard thrower who had this control. He attributed his velocity to playing hockey for years and developing his lower body. A lot of kids don't like working out let alone on their lower body. This could explain how some blossom after a couple years of college where they have to workout all facets of their body. They learn how to use their lower body properly.
quote:Originally posted by bbscout:
If you look at the top 20 active winners in major league baseball, 11 are guys who only have average (86-90) velocity.
This is one of those things that always gets me. Every sport has "measurables" and in baseball for pitchers, one of them is velocity. I'm pretty sure the mark to reach is 90+, right? And I would think that those guys bbscout mentioned were or still are able to throw much harder (Maddux for example) but they don't now. Now that they're in, they've given up some velocity in order to hit their spots and pitch versus letting it fly.
I think you're looking at this backwards. It's more of a Darwin, "survival of the fittest" thing.
We all know that scouts put a big emphasis on MPH, and it's tough to get serious looks until you crack that 90 barrier.
But with wear, tear and age, many who could zing it in their youth lose some of their velocity.
And a bunch of them wash out of MLB.
But those who figure out how to pitch and win without it, survive and prosper. So it's not surprising that the lower MPH guys are often winners. It's not their low MPH that helps them win, it's the fact that they found other things that work that kept them in MLB and winning. While others washed out, they survived.
Maddux is the top example. Glavine, too. Frank Tanana comes to mind as another; once a mid-90's flame thrower, he ended his career as a real soft tosser and won both ways. Luis Tiant traded heat for crafty use of off-speed and deliberate distraction. Some of you guys can probably think of others who escape my memory right now.
The unfortunate thing about this is, the next Jamie Moyer might be out there right now, trying to get looks, but even if he's mastered the art of pitching it'll be tough to get his foot in the door if he doesn't at least throw hard when he's young. But you have to sympathize with the scouts' plight: There are thousands of kids throwing in the mid-80's. How are you supposed to tell them apart? They can all get HS batters out, but how can you tell if they can get pro batters out? So they start with the high MPH guys and hope they can learn to pitch over time.
We all know that scouts put a big emphasis on MPH, and it's tough to get serious looks until you crack that 90 barrier.
But with wear, tear and age, many who could zing it in their youth lose some of their velocity.
And a bunch of them wash out of MLB.
But those who figure out how to pitch and win without it, survive and prosper. So it's not surprising that the lower MPH guys are often winners. It's not their low MPH that helps them win, it's the fact that they found other things that work that kept them in MLB and winning. While others washed out, they survived.
Maddux is the top example. Glavine, too. Frank Tanana comes to mind as another; once a mid-90's flame thrower, he ended his career as a real soft tosser and won both ways. Luis Tiant traded heat for crafty use of off-speed and deliberate distraction. Some of you guys can probably think of others who escape my memory right now.
The unfortunate thing about this is, the next Jamie Moyer might be out there right now, trying to get looks, but even if he's mastered the art of pitching it'll be tough to get his foot in the door if he doesn't at least throw hard when he's young. But you have to sympathize with the scouts' plight: There are thousands of kids throwing in the mid-80's. How are you supposed to tell them apart? They can all get HS batters out, but how can you tell if they can get pro batters out? So they start with the high MPH guys and hope they can learn to pitch over time.
quote:Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
So it's not surprising that the lower MPH guys are often winners. It's not their low MPH that helps them win, it's the fact that they found other things that work that kept them in MLB and winning. While others washed out, they survived.
This is an absolutely critical point. These guys had to learn how to pitch to survive.
They couldn't just get by with throwing.
I've always felt that you learn to throw hard, then you learn how to pitch.
I would have to disagree, RV.
Learn proper mechanics. Learn pitch selection & strategy. Learn mental toughness. All at the early ages (e.g., 9/10YO).
The velocity will come with growth, strength training (after about 13/14YO, not advocating weights for kids 12 or under), conditioning, etc.
The longer teaching of proper mechanics is put off, the harder it will be to break bad habits. And arm damage can occur in the waiting period.
The earlier pitch selection/strategy and mental toughness are taught, the better.
Learn proper mechanics. Learn pitch selection & strategy. Learn mental toughness. All at the early ages (e.g., 9/10YO).
The velocity will come with growth, strength training (after about 13/14YO, not advocating weights for kids 12 or under), conditioning, etc.
The longer teaching of proper mechanics is put off, the harder it will be to break bad habits. And arm damage can occur in the waiting period.
The earlier pitch selection/strategy and mental toughness are taught, the better.
The "ability" to throw hard and the "act" of throwing hard can be two completely seperate things.
If a basketball player had the "ability" to jump 10 feet off the ground it makes the 3 foot jump to dunk the ball much easier.
If a pitcher can throw 100 mph, it's very "easy" for him to throw 90 mph. The easier it is the more yoy can do and it is not as hard to control. Also it's much less stress on the arm! Some throw mid 90s easy while others throw mid 80s hard. The mid 90s guy will feel like he's really taking it easy at mid 80s while the mid 80s guy is working his tail off.
Not sure if any of that makes much sense to everyone? If not... that's Ok, I get confused a lot!
If a basketball player had the "ability" to jump 10 feet off the ground it makes the 3 foot jump to dunk the ball much easier.
If a pitcher can throw 100 mph, it's very "easy" for him to throw 90 mph. The easier it is the more yoy can do and it is not as hard to control. Also it's much less stress on the arm! Some throw mid 90s easy while others throw mid 80s hard. The mid 90s guy will feel like he's really taking it easy at mid 80s while the mid 80s guy is working his tail off.
Not sure if any of that makes much sense to everyone? If not... that's Ok, I get confused a lot!
I'm not sure but I think you are agreeing with me PGStaff.
I guess I'll have to start putting disclaimers in when I say throw hard.
To me throwinging hard includes with good mechanics. Good mechanics seem to mean a lot of different things to people, but I feel that if you can throw hard, your mechanics will probably be "in the ball park" so to say.
That's not to say they couldn't always be improved upon.
Most high level throwers are walking a razors edge with their mechanics and they can probably tell when something is out of the slightest adjustment when they throw, they are so in tune with their mechanics.
Anyways....I think kids aren't alowed to just throw the heck out of the ball anymore withoout having to worry about throwing stikes. While you're worrying about pitch selection, and learning how to "pitch", the time it takes to develop a high level throw is passing by.
I just feel the time is better spent on throwing "hard" (and teaching to throw hard with good mechanics) when a kid is young (say under 17 or 18).
I guess I'll have to start putting disclaimers in when I say throw hard.
To me throwinging hard includes with good mechanics. Good mechanics seem to mean a lot of different things to people, but I feel that if you can throw hard, your mechanics will probably be "in the ball park" so to say.
That's not to say they couldn't always be improved upon.
Most high level throwers are walking a razors edge with their mechanics and they can probably tell when something is out of the slightest adjustment when they throw, they are so in tune with their mechanics.
Anyways....I think kids aren't alowed to just throw the heck out of the ball anymore withoout having to worry about throwing stikes. While you're worrying about pitch selection, and learning how to "pitch", the time it takes to develop a high level throw is passing by.
I just feel the time is better spent on throwing "hard" (and teaching to throw hard with good mechanics) when a kid is young (say under 17 or 18).
quote:Originally posted by RobV:
While you're worrying about pitch selection, and learning how to "pitch", the time it takes to develop a high level throw is passing by.
Exactly what constitutes a "high level throw"?
What leads to you believe that learning how to pitch and developing a high level throw are mutually exclusive? Or even that the former is in any away detrimental to the latter?
I would have to say that they are not mutually exclusive. And that the former is not in any way detrimental to the latter.
quote:Originally posted by RobV:
I just feel the time is better spent on throwing "hard" (and teaching to throw hard with good mechanics) when a kid is young (say under 17 or 18).
Control is a product of repeatable and sound mechanics. If good mechanics are being taught and utilized, the control will follow (up to the point that a given pitcher is capable).
And it seems to me that PG was addressing a different topic. And I believe he was saying that is that control is better when the pitcher is not exerting 100% effort.
Assume that pitcher A is capable of throwing 95 with max effort while pitcher B is capable of throwing 90 with max effort. Then you would expect pitcher A to have better control that pitcher B when both are throwing 90. Perhaps he will enlighten us further.
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
The "ability" to throw hard and the "act" of throwing hard can be two completely seperate things.
If a pitcher can throw 100 mph, it's very "easy" for him to throw 90 mph. The easier it is the more yoy can do and it is not as hard to control.
As was proven with Koufax, among others.
