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112 replies

Muscles in hitting....

B beemax100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by BlueDog:
How and when the hands load is very important in hitting and throwing....


What a revelation.

Let me rephrase the quote above. Rhythm and timing is very important in hitting. I think everyone agrees with this.

Let me restate a few of my questions, in case you missed them.

Ir reference to the kids swing you posted:

quote:
Do you know this kid? I would hope you do, because I have never heard the statement "tee swing" when referring to a kid hitting a live pitch.

Do you know that this kid developed his swing on a tee?
T tfox100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by BlueDog:
quote:
I saw a video of Ted Williams when he was in his prime in Boston hitting off a tee made of a plunger and a garden hose. I think it worked okay for him.

So, this is why he was such a great hitter? Roll Eyes

No rephase needed.... Big Grin


Obviously didn't hurt,maybe it helped him develop a "tee swing" Razz
floridafanfloridafan5,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by BlueDog:
This is a tee swing...No upper body control....A swing developed on a tee without the benefit of rhythm and timing.....Balance in this hitter comes from the legs and no power....



The question was not regarding an efficient swingpath. Bluedog stated that the above swing was developed by hitting off a tee. The above swing has many flaws as noted by Wayback. My contention was/is that Tee Work alone is not responsible for this swing or the flaws associated with it.

A tee is a tool that when used properly, with good mechanics should prove to be beneficial. If you have flawed mechanics however you could really commit them to memory with a bunch of swings off a tee.

This guy 's front shoulder is opening up way too early and has a lot of bat drag, but Wayback nailed it well.
Last edited by floridafan
B beemax100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by BlueDog:
quote:
I saw a video of Ted Williams when he was in his prime in Boston hitting off a tee made of a plunger and a garden hose. I think it worked okay for him.

So, this is why he was such a great hitter? Roll Eyes

No rephase needed.... Big Grin


As tfox stated, it certainly didn't hurt him. What about Tony Gwynn? Or Pujols and A-Rod?

STILL haven't answered my questions.

You are a very tired act on here BlueDog. If you took the time to explain yourself once in a while instead of giving people these open-to-interpretation "answers" or "responses," these threads would be a lot better off.

To write off something as widely used by numerous pros (A TEE) by posting a clip of a kid is nonsense, IMO.

The tee is not the problem. The teacher is.
T tfox100+ posts
The ONLY thing he is doing even remotley similar to any of those hitters is swinging a bat,the rest is completey different.

This kid has no separation which you love to speak of.His front shoulder is in complete unison with his front hip,NONE of those mlb hitters are doing that.His shoulder is open way to early as stated earlier.HIPS SHOULD BE AHEAD OF SHOULDERS,how you get there is definately up for debate.
BlueDogBlueDog1,000+ posts
quote:
This kid has no separation which you love to speak of.

You don't know separation when you see it, obviously....The kid does have separation.....There is some rotation into footplant....
quote:
His front shoulder is in complete unison with his front hip

No, it isn't...
quote:
HIPS SHOULD BE AHEAD OF SHOULDERS

And, they are....

Only problem this kid has is loading the hands at the wrong time.......
Last edited by BlueDog
waybackwayback100+ posts
The optimal rotation/turn of the shoulder, like the rest of the body, is when it is on time and in synch with the rest of the body. Otherwise, early is better than late.

Some times, early is because the swing is being powered by a shoulder-down swing.

And, other times, the front shoulders open when the timing of the batter is off (or he is expecting fastball and getting off speed, or looking inside and getting outside) and as the rear arm slots, the front shoulder has to open to clear the way for the hands to fire ahead of the rear elbow.

The adjustment that you see in a lot of the swings above is that higher level hitters can overcome being early/fooled by keeping movement in their hands...while, at the same time, resisiting the slotting of the rear/top arm. That resistance to slotting allows the hands to stay back. We're talking a fraction of a second to allow the ball to travel enough to get deeper into the hitting zone.

The Aaron clip is a perfect example. Look at the body timing in the two pictures....on the right, the rear elbow slots later in the sequence. The resistance to slotting allows him to keep the shoulders closed a little longer and still drive the barrel to the ball with power.

Watch Delgado's hands and rear arm. He resists the early open by manipulating the barrel with his hands and by not dropping the rear arm early.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Razz
Last edited by wayback
P powertoallfields1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by wayback:
The optimal rotation/turn of the shoulder, like the rest of the body, is when it is on time and in synch with the rest of the body. Otherwise, early is better than late.

Some times, early is because the swing is being powered by a shoulder-down swing.

And, other times, the front shoulders open when the timing of the batter is off (or he is expecting fastball and getting off speed, or looking inside and getting outside) and as the rear arm slots, the front shoulder has to open to clear the way for the hands to fire ahead of the rear elbow.

The adjustment that you see in a lot of the swings above is that higher level hitters can overcome being early/fooled by keeping movement in their hands...while, at the same time, resisiting the slotting of the rear/top arm. That resistance to slotting allows the hands to stay back. We're talking a fraction of a second to allow the ball to travel enough to get deeper into the hitting zone.

The Aaron clip is a perfect example. Look at the body timing in the two pictures....on the right, the rear elbow slots later in the sequence. The resistance to slotting allows him to keep the shoulders closed a little longer and still drive the barrel to the ball with power.

Watch Delgado's hands and rear arm. He resists the early open by manipulating the barrel with his hands and by not dropping the rear arm early.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Razz




waybackwayback100+ posts
thanks.....and, I might add that his great flexibility allows him to keep the upper body closed with the lower body opening.

That flexibility prevents him from having to resort to other tactics, like fighting the hip opening and leaning into a lunge. (ie the hips move forward...if he's fighting the rotation, he's stuck with a lunge until he goes into the rotation).

Impressive for a big guy.
Last edited by wayback
P powertoallfields1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by BlueDog:
quote:
This kid has no separation which you love to speak of.

You don't know separation when you see it, obviously....The kid does have separation.....There is some rotation into footplant....
quote:
His front shoulder is in complete unison with his front hip

No, it isn't...
quote:
HIPS SHOULD BE AHEAD OF SHOULDERS

And, they are....

Only problem this kid has is loading the hands at the wrong time.......




Yep!
BlueDogBlueDog1,000+ posts
quote:
Blue,

This kid should be a pretty easy fix, don't you think?

Yes, Power, I do.....Load the hands later and the body will synch itself....Kid has nice potential.....

Beemax says....
quote:
You are a very tired act on here BlueDog.

Well, Power, we got some excellent commentary from Tom and Wayback about how MLB hitters swing a bat.....These two guys know their stuff.....We all can learn from them!

As long as we want to learn, that is!!
Last edited by BlueDog
BlueDogBlueDog1,000+ posts
Wayback rightfully says......
quote:
The optimal rotation/turn of the shoulder, like the rest of the body, is when it is on time and in synch with the rest of the body. Otherwise, early is better than late.

quote:
The adjustment that you see in a lot of the swings above is that higher level hitters can overcome being early/fooled by keeping movement in their hands......That resistance to slotting allows the hands to stay back. We're talking a fraction of a second.....


You don't learn this stuff hitting off a tee........
Last edited by BlueDog
B beemax100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by BlueDog:
As long as we want to learn, that is!!


Blue,

I have been trying to learn from you this whole thread but I get no straight answers; actually, I haven't got any answers from you at all.

I don't take issue with you talking about mechanics, but for some reason you cannot do two things on here:

1. Answer my simple questions.

2. End a sentence with a period.

...and I take issue with that (well, really with only the first point).

If you answered my questions it would be much easier. And we would all learn more.
P powertoallfields1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by BlueDog:
quote:
Blue,

This kid should be a pretty easy fix, don't you think?

Yes, Power, I do.....Load the hands later and the body will synch itself....Kid has nice potential.....

Beemax says....
quote:
You are a very tired act on here BlueDog.

Well, Power, we got some excellent commentary from Tom and Wayback about how MLB hitters swing a bat.....These two guys know their stuff.....We all can learn from them!

As long as we want to learn, that is!!




I love the way Tom explains the swing. I'm not too familiar with Wayback, but I liked his explainations of these hitters' swings. Now that I understand how to manipulate the barrel with the hands, it all becomes very easy to see in video and in person.

Question for you Blue, Tom or Wayback,

Is the amount of tip a individual thing to help with their timing or is it just something certain hitters prefer? For example Sheffield being huge tip and Bonds being small tip or is it because of the amount of stride in certain hitters? Making stride match tip as far as timing. Another question, do you think Ted Williams hobby of Fly fishing helped him advance his swing or did his swing help with his Fly fishing? I know he was world class at this sport too and I know his swing advanced through the years.
T tom.guerry100+ posts
power -

you got me on fly fishing.

my theory is that the MLB pattern includes a universal arm action sequence. The hands can be very quiet or move a lot. they can tip the bat a little or a lot in a variety of directions, bUT the arm action sequence is the same, the primary motions being;

1- rhythmic preswing activity involving a back and forth alternating activity of one side then the other

2-inward turn/hands come in to center

3- back arm more active, internal rotation as hips ****, this tips the bat some

4-back arm/elbow lift, this tips bat more toward pitcher

5-synched back arm and front leg external rotation, this times the upper/lower bdy right to wind the rubberband and is the beginning of UNtipping/float/rubberbbandwinding

6- lead arm becomes dominant with internal rtation preparing for jut of front arm/tilt of shoulders/go

I think learning is easier when you exaggerate the motion and when you understand that breaking the hands in overhand throw involves the same back arm action.

shawn, let me know if that is not clear.
S ShawnLee10+ posts
Tom,

I'm actually quite impressed. That is the most concise and understandable piece I've ever seen you write. I've been seeing your posts for close to five years and you honestly seem to try to confuse and obscure the issues. In truth, BD does not hold a candle to you in that regard, however, while you often avoid questions, he ALWAYS ignores questions and just continues with his monologue as if no question was ever asked.

I do have to ask though, where is the torque hidden in you last post. I'm guessing step 5 but it's well hidden. You do believe in richard's torque, don't you?

Also, I've seen on BBF that you and Go Cards were going to get together and hit. Has that happened yet? How did it go? I think the kid has some talent and he certainly has desire but I'm afraid too much time at HI.com and he'll be playing as much as richard's other student. It would be good if you could help him out.
Last edited by ShawnLee
P powertoallfields1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by tom.guerry:
power -

you got me on fly fishing.





Tom,

I guess I'm talking about the rhythm needed to be good at it. If you've ever done it or seen it done, you know that it is a front to back to front motion and with the line and lure being so light, it must be done in perfect rhythm and thrown from it's peak backward position to be effectively thrown for any meaningful distance and accuracy. There is a good movie called A RIVER RUNS THROUGH IT that has slow motion video of it being done and is described as a type of dance. This "dance" is what I mean by the dance with the Pitcher during preswing I try to teach to my students. I like to keep the movements of the hitter somewhat synched with the Pitcher's movements so that there is no frozen moments during the swing or preswing.
T tom.guerry100+ posts
power -

dance with pitcher is a key/show him your back pocket when he shows his/etc.

I find it helpful to relate the feel and mechanical aspects of the swing, in which case "rhythm" is not just the sequence of pieces of the swing, but also what proportion a given piece of the sequence takes, and in hitting, the duration of some pieces is variable which permits adjustment.


shawn-

the handle torque is the main mechanical aspect underlying:

"keeping movement in their hands...while, at the same time, resisiting the slotting of the rear/top arm"

and

"He resists the early open by manipulating the barrel with his hands and by not dropping the rear arm early"

this has to PRECEDE shoulder action.

when shoulders first act it is by TILT/resisting turn, not by turning.

That is a universal sequence of MLB/stretch and fire/early batspeed/late adjustment.

that is an entirely different pattern from PCR where the scaps function in very different way thought of as "shoulder rotation".

The key pattern determinant is how connection of limbs to body is accomplished through the shoulders.

shoulder rotation is PCR.

lateral tilt is MLB.

very different.
Last edited by tom.guerry
CoachB25CoachB25Honorary "Old TImer"
I’ve stayed out of this topic for some time but will mention some observations. The following young man was mentioned as having a Tee Swing. I don’ t know this young man and don’t know how often he hits off of a tee.


However, I’d like to point out that we also don’t know many other things about this young man. Where is the ball? Look at the dugout. Was this a practice? Is this young man sincere in his swing or just messing around? Well, you get my point. A Tee is simply a tool No better or worse than the multitude of tools available to those that teach hitting. I’d mention that like the Tee, I could probably find several young men that have screwed up swings from the hands back hitter. I’d state that I’ve seen kids step on the string and totally collapse their back leg and drop their hands trying to hit balls out of the yard. Granted, the Tee can be very harmful if not supervised. I’d attribute much of that to the impression on the youth that the Tee is for young kids and as you gain skills, you don’t hit off of a Tee. Tees such as the Tanner Tee are great because they don’t impede the swing and/or give reason for those not skilled to disconnect in order to avoid knocking the tee over. As I’ve posted on this site before, my child prefers the HBH first if she is going to do work. However, when she is on the Tee, she goes through a routine that focuses on connection, weight shift, and finish. It is part and parcel of a lead up to striking the ball that I believe is a tremendous drill. In giving lessons I would agree with Bluedog that I’ve witnessed kids left alone on a Tee that, in my opinion, got worse hitting off of a Tee. To me that was the coach’s fault. Practicing with a purpose should correct that.

The comment was made about hitting to all fields off of a Tee. I’m not a big fan of doing that off of a Tee. The reason is that I can get a lot better results form working with front toss. One needs to be highly selective in determining what is best for any given drill. ALL DRILLS HAVE BOTH POSITIVE AND NEGATIVE CHARACTERISTICS. BTW, in any of these drills be it Tee or anything else, having repetition without feedback from the hitter is useless in my opinion. They need to know why they are doing it, what they need to focus on to be successful when doing it, and what the pitfalls are of not doing it correctly. Bluedog notices timing issues and poor bat path. I notice in Tee work a downward swing and hitters often not exploding through the ball. I call that a, “just happy to be here swing.” Intent in the swing is very important.

Tfox, before I forget, I am glad that you found some of my advice helpful. You might be the only one walking the face of the earth that can make that claim.

Redbird, my daughter often mentions your quote, “When I was hitting well, I found that my stomach, lats, and forearms were sore afterwards.” I know that her work emphasizing the core and connection and body muscle memory training are being done appropriately when she makes these comments.

Tom, you lose ANY creditability when you constantly misrepresent PCR and stating that shoulder turning is PCR. I’d like to come with the attacks now since again you demonstrate that you are obsessed with PCR, N – y-m-a-n and SE. However, what good would that do? Keep on topic and you’ll be ok here. Otherwise…

Regarding Tom’s mention of “torque” also described by some as leading to “blur,” I‘d think that it has been debunked enough. However, for some interesting reading on that topic, please feel free to peruse the following links regarding Torque and “bat blur.”

Blur? I got Blur!

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=75335

I got Blur Part 2

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=75446

History of Blur

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=75502
Last edited by CoachB25
T tfox100+ posts
Good post coach,I agree with what you have said,especially about being supervised and the tee will be used much less as the hitters getter older and more mechanically sound.


I really think that some forget that YOUNG KIDS don't have the same motor skills that older kids and adults have and breaking things down into steps is much easier to learn,FOR SOME.The tee when used properly can be extremely helpfull when supervised by good instructors.

Oh well,I am backing out again.
CoachB25CoachB25Honorary "Old TImer"
tfox, I'd love to hear how your girl is doing. When you get a chance, send me a pm.

Once upon a time, I had a lot of access to the St. Louis Cardinals. I don't anymore. Anyway, I had an unfortunate cause to speak with Terry Pendleton since we caught a young man stealing his glove. I parlayed that into a hitting discussion. In short, he commented that he carried a Tee with him everywhere he went. Those were the days when he was contending for batting titles. I know that Johnny Lewis used to do a lot of Tee work with the St. Louis Cardinals as well and was able to sit in on a session of hitting with Jim Edmonds when he first came over from the Angels. That is where I was first exposed to the concept of "Heel-Toe." Now, they have all kinds of phrases for that action. As I worked with hitters I noticed that many did better without stride (or slight pick heel up toe off and down) and so, I incorporated that more into my teaching. I do agree that it isn't for everyone. I do like it is some (some) drill work. Using a Tee can also be of great benefit in working on maintaining a box. (Note the box is not static but some appropriate drill work is tremendous for this off a tee.) JMHO!
T tom.guerry100+ posts
B25 -

Let's be specific about how pcr is being misrepresented.

it may have been/is under heavy revision, but turning like heck and adjusting by bend at waist and torso/shoulder rotation were points of emphasis.

in fact, unlike Dixon, steve e has considered the shoulders part of the torso while dixon excludes them in his definition. maybe that has changed too.

The "blur" in the MLB pattern comes when you have sequenced things right so that the torso has coiled with hands staying back directing the barrell as wayback mentioned above, then at "GO" with shift of the weight, the tilt of the shoulders is slaved to the hands so that barrell acceleration increases enough to cause blur while the hands remain back with this shoulder action increasing resistance to opening with the hips.

this allows sharpening of torso stretch as well as being an effective point of control for swing timing and plane matching with the adjustment controlled by the more distal upper body, not the more proximal bend at waist.

the rearward/downward blur which happens with hands still back is an important marker of "early btspeed" which is impossible with the pcr pattern.

the pcr path forces obsession with drag and late batspeed because the handle torque effect is denied.
Last edited by tom.guerry
CoachB25CoachB25Honorary "Old TImer"
Let's see Tom

P = Posture
C = Connection
R = Rotation

To suggest that SE teaches only about the shoulders is absolutely misleading. To suggest, as you did, that tilt isn't a primary emphasis is misleading. For you to now state that a "major revision" is underway is misleading. In fact, one could go cite numerous posts by SE on various arguments not only from his current site but also from his days at S-E-T P-R-O. I know because he has them linked currently in various discussion that are ongoing on his site. (Baseball Fever as well.)

As per the "torque" I don't think I'm alone in considering those links to be a major rebutal supported with evidence of "blur" and "torque." I think I'll let the reader read those posts and decide for themselves. (Links provide in previous post.) In my opinion, that was a major butt whippin but then again who am I.

Tom your posts are further misleading in that you know that one former supporter of PCR used countless video of Bonds as the perfect example of PCR. Talk about hand movement prior to the swing! In doing so, SE never stepped forward to discount any actions of Bonds prior to connection as anti-PCR. You can't find one instance. As with the basic foundation of the philosophy, there was/is a point where connection is made and maintained. In that there was also no argument as it is clear in video. SE did make comments on the rotation of that front shoulder hiding the hands and commented that such action could be a hinderance and not a help in the swing process. However, it is not my place to speak for SE. I would suggest that any third party reading this check out his site for any clarification should I be misrepresenting him.

I have posted countless times a clarification on the seperation issue and so, you continue to chant that mantra. Again, seperation is not possible in the kenetic link since those muscles can not seperate. You know this from various articles on the Serape Effect. For the interested reader, type that into a search and read for yourself.

FYI for other posters, in a call for me to stay out of these discussions, I've tried to accomondate. I won't let Tom misrepresent SE or his ideas. However, you the reader can make your own decisions on that. Should any of you desire, to to Baseball Fever and type Steve Englishbey into the search engine. His posts will come up and you can read for yoursef. Don't take my word on it AND CERTAINLY DON'T TAKE TOM'S. Of course Tom, you can come on here and tell me what I was really saying. You are very good at that. You miss out when telling us what SE is really saying. I do wish I had that ability. However, I'm thinking it is an ability gained through agenda. But then I digress. All other posters, you can read Steve's thoughts and then you can make intelligent decsions based upon what is posted there. (BBF or Englishbeyhitting.com) I've often talked to Steve about posting here. However, he has been gracious enough to stay in the background because of his friendship with me (disclosure so take it for what it is worth) and because he knows that for every Tom out there, he can put numerous members on this site posting with agendas. That'd serve no positive purpose. However, he is a member of this site and does have posting rights. Often, I wish he would post just to clarify.

(In closing, I would have stayed out of this but Tom's remarks will always be met with my rebutal and so, here we go again. Therefore, Tom, keep on topic and we'll all get along. I'll stress again, otherwise...)
Last edited by CoachB25
itsinthegameitsinthegame5,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by tom.guerry:
B25 -

Let's be specific about how pcr is being misrepresented.

it may have been/is under heavy revision,


Or in other words - we just talk and talk and talk - and then change what we say. What we so adamantly represented a few months ago - is now "Under revision" LOL

And we say it 5 thousand different ways - and when we change this undeciperable garbage - we say it another 5000 different ways.

And somehow - someway - some people actually bite on it.

Just utter BS. IMO.
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