Muscles in hitting....

quote:

Originally posted by itsinthegame:

quote:

Originally posted by tom.guerry:
B25 -

Let's be specific about how pcr is being misrepresented.

it may have been/is under heavy revision,

Or in other words - we just talk and talk and talk - and then change what we say. What we so adamantly represented a few months ago - is now "Under revision" LOL

And we say it 5 thousand different ways - and when we change this undeciperable garbage - we say it another 5000 different ways.

And somehow - someway - some people actually bite on it.

Just utter BS. IMO.

itsinthegame, your utter disgust demonstrates my point. This thread had no place for any agenda. The topic was muscles used in hitting. An off shoot ended up being a discussion on Tee work and comments about a young hitter in the video which was brought up by the person creating this thread. You are right in asserting that this will turn into ANOTHER useless thread and I apologize for that. I had stayed out of it. I had stayed out of it and would have continued. However, I won't look the other way when some posters present their agendas.

CoachB,

I am glad you are here - and that you ride herd over this garbage - and try to bring people back to reality.

I certainly wouldnt want to do it.

I have read this Bluedog/Teacherman/Guerry/etc... nonsense for about 5 years now - and it remains a bunch of mumbo jumbo trash. Ever changing BS. With ever changing justifications. Just pure BS.

Hopefully - you will retain the patience to direct this forum
for useful purposes.

No one - other than maybe bbscout - has ever been able to do it before IMO.

B25 -

i did not suggest steve teaches only about shoulders.

ny-man tends to obsesss about shoulders becasue one of his big claims to fame is including scap action in analysis which was a neglected area (no teach) before he focussed on it in the overhand throw.

it is very important analytically in throwing to explain what ny-man calls the transition from merrygoround to ferris wheel.

if you want to understand thowing in a way that helps you teach the MLB swing, ny-man's throwing model is a good one.

ny-man.however, did not figure out how the scap action is different in the swing, and the reason is he does not understand the different patterns that have been best described in golf as 1 v 2 plane.

in ny-man's (n-yman is steve's mentor and steve continues to follow ny-man and supports ny-man's model which was revised to pcr/whip) swing model, the scaps rotate and load/unoad with the attempt to have the scap action primarily responsible for turning the knob.

n-yman and steve would be much better off understanding they are dealing with 2 different models, that the main determinant of model is how body to limb connection is made and the pcr functional guidelines are forcing the 1 plane solution.

ny-man thimks 'there is no such thing as good mechnics" so that when you follow the "functional guidelines" by trial and error and give the body the right task (ecological approach) that you will develop the MLB pattern as you become more efficient and more skilled with more degrees of freedom.

because ny-man and his mentee steve do not comprehend the existence of opposed models, they really believe "there is no such thing as good mechanics", but there ARE such a thing including universal sequences with lower body synched to upper body and weight shift synching in a certain way in the MLB pattern.

same goes for overhand throw.

so even though p,c,r are very abstract categories that seem to account for any type pattern, they are NOT descriptive or useful in learning the mlb pattern, instead, as the guidelines are used, they are an impediment becasue they do not distinguish betwen very different attributes of the 1 (turn arms and bat in shoulder plane) vs 2 (shoulder slaved to hands turning bat in different plane).

so ny-man is right to focus analytically on the shoulder action, but he does not understand how the scaps work well enough in the swing paterns which makes pcr useless if the mlb swing is your destination.

you will have to obsess about drag and turning like heck and moving the knob with shoulder action and desperately trying to get a 5 frame or less swing and you will stay busy enough that you do not realize you are on a snipe hunt until it's too late.

with regard to torque even "no-torque ny-man" has admitted there is significant early handle torque that must be accounted for to prevent drag.

bonds swings in the 2 plane mlb pattern. to claim he fits with pcr guidelines is simply evidence that you can only see what you can see as ny-man says.

pcr does not explain how bonds keeps his hands back as the hips open and how he gets the early batspeed/rearward/downward blur. this is impossible without understanding the "lateral tilt" of the shoulders. only very recently has markh been allowed to say that opening the hips as the shoulders stay back is acceptable. hiddengem immediately called him on this as you may recall.

i guess steve did not let gem in on the full pcr model either ?

now you are continuing the myth that "pcr explains it all" becasue all swings have p,c,and r.

the problem is that all swings do not have the same pcr and the pcr they have only works efficiently to transfer momentum as a part of 2 separate/very different patterns, and only one of these has the early batspeed and late adjustability necessary to deal with the ecology of mlb.

Said more simply, "there is such a thing as good mechanics".

both 1 and 2 p patterns are fine in golf where reaction time is unlimited.

steve has given many pieces of bad advice IF your goal is mlb becasue he has unwittingly identified the 1 plane as the only way to transfer momentum efficiently to hit. so he says hiding hands is bad for example, whereas it is fine for mlb as described by Mankin who IS describing the mlb/2 plane pattern.


your "separation' point is just playing semantics.

of course there is separation (torso stretch/load/cusp) as measured in motionanlysis of the swing, described as x-factor and x-factor stretch just as in golf. to deny this is just silly. and when you look at video from the 1plane/pcr perspective, it makes you unable to see what you could see if you understood the mlb pattern was very different.

mlb hitters undeniably load by opening the hips as the hands stay back with the shoulders resisting by tilting not turning. this creates a better controlled quicker better directed stretch and fire swing which can succeed in mlb.

one yu understand this, you will be able to see it.

when pcr types look at this it just becomes "slippage", OK for experts, not novices/etc.

and learning is different from the destination pattern,etc.

if you don't want to have the pcr ideas misrepresented in an open forum then you need to state what they now are and how steve and ny-man differ among other things.

and steve has had many posts at bbf and eteamz and ny-man which he has said in the past adequately represent his position.

there should be no prblem restating those clearly for discussion and pointing out any recent revisions if these are significant, like mark saying opening the hips early is not bleeding off momentum.

maybe instead of being gracious, steve shoulde grace us with his presence and not leave it up to the followers like you to gum it up.

or maybe he does not have permission from ny-man, and we have to get the latest (revised - because as ny-man said, he really did not understand it too well before) ebook as steve recommends.

b25, i woud recommend you not bother with discussions here if you are not willing or capable of fuller disclosure.

CoachB25, I have always thought, and have said so, that you have been fair and objective....But, I must admit that lately I am seeing a bias on your part....

A whole lot of what Tom is saying is absolutely truthful......Absolutely truthful!

Steve gets talked about as being gracious and Tom gets degraded......I, for one, will say, there's another side to that story....Bigtime!...But, I don't care about all the bickering.....So, why can't we all stay out of it?

Tom presents his hitting beliefs in an open and public forum, but his counterparts cannot say what they believe?.....Just that Tom is wrong?

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
CoachB25, I have always thought, and have said so, that you have been fair and objective....But, I must admit that lately I am seeing a bias on your part....

A whole lot of what Tom is saying is absolutely truthful......Absolutely truthful!

Steve gets talked about as being gracious and Tom gets degraded......I, for one, will say, there's another side to that story....Bigtime!...But, I don't care about all the bickering.....So, why can't we all stay out of it?

Tom presents his hitting beliefs in an open and public forum, but his counterparts cannot say what they believe?.....Just that Tom is wrong?

Bluedog, Tom doesn't just present his beliefs. He attacks others. Had he just posted his beliefs, I'd have stayed out of it. There was no reference in this thead at all about PCR. Please find it prior to Toms post. Then, he post misrepresentations. I will address those every time. Therefore, threads such as this which were constructive at one point will turn into this everytime. I won't back down. He will have to change and that is all there is to it.

When you mentioned that I have changed and am posting with an agenda. I went and took a look at my posts. I went back to February. I found no references at all to PCR by me other than in one post where, again, Tom made statements first. That was in the "Case in Point" thread. I read statements in the "hitting the ball the other way" thread made by myself where I could not tell any suggestion of any hitting philosophy. (Hitting camp) I went and looked at the "Shame of it All" thread. In that thread I complimented you, tfox, and Powertoallfields, for the mature discussion. I entitled the thread that way because the shame of it all is that others can't post without an agenda. Reference Tom and explain to me why he had to make any statement about PCR. Yet, I'm taken to task about not being impartial and, in fact, implimenting my agenda. Please you (Bluedog) and others read my past posts to determine the truth of what I've stated here.

Tom, a direct quote of yours, “shoulder rotation is PCR.”

Again:

P = Posture
C = Connection
R = Rotation

First, Tom, Steve has posted directly to you some four posts that I’m aware of where he explicitly states that ***** is not his mentor. You know that and yet continue to state that. Any creditability you may have is lost on me when you continue to make these assertions time and time again. When those assertions are addressed time and time again and yet you attempt to mislead those not in the know with these same assertions on other sites. You make an assertion that MarkH is now allowed to say… essentially suggesting that Steve tells MarkH what to say. Absurd! You mention “tilt” and yet you know that “tilt” in relation to PCR is more than just shoulder tilt. You know that it is pelvic tilt and thus the “P.” You know and have read the various articles posted by Steve where he describes his aversion to using the phrase “separation.” You know all of that and yet you persist. You know very definitely the statement I made about Bonds is accurate. Yet, you seem to suggest that I’m mislead. In these archives I could go copy countless references to PCR and reference the Bonds clips. The only problem being that the server those clips once were on has had a change and thus the clip no longer plays but the reference and description are there. BEING ABLE TO SEE WHAT YOU CAN SEE IS AN IRONIC STATEMENT COMING FROM YOU. You have variously noted that the shoulder’s are bypassed in the swing. You have variously stated or at least supported the concept that there isn’t a scap load. You would now suggest that a person who believe in PCR can not find a point where Tilt occurs in Bond’s swing. They can not find a point of connection. They can not find rotation. Interesting! Those same video clips are discussed at length on Steve’s site and as they pertain to PCR. Of course you don’t go there and haven’t been allowed to go there. You constantly tell us what Steve says and yet, you don’t have conversations with him. You tell us what Dixon meant. I guess we’re not Ivy League and so, you feel the need to do so. BTW, again, ironic that the biggest promotion in the selling of Dixon’s book that I know of is on Steve’s site. In fact, Dixon’s son contacted me due to posts on Steve’s site where references to the book remain. With regards to “separation,” Steve made a post on BBF dated, I believe 2005, where he defined his observations. Those observations have not changed. I know because as recent as 2 weeks ago, I had that very same discussion with Steve on the phone. I would say that there are times when I would like for Steve to address your claims here. However, I understand why he does not. Besides, it'd be one of those circumstance where evreyone on each side would weigh in and it would get nasty and so thank goodness again, that the other side doesn't.

Well, here is another thread now ruined. I won't let this happen very much more. Take that to the bank! Tom, since you're into "recommending" I'd recommend that you understand this last point.

CoachB25,

Any seasoned observer - and probably most any other observer - can very quickly see what these guys are all about.

It is NOT about teaching kids - It is about THEM - and their ever changing assanine "theories". As if anyone really cares about some "cyber theory" from some anonymous internet denizen - LOL

Add to it their childish "I know the truth and you dont" cyber fights - and there you have it.

It has been this way for years - and it wont change. Its just a bunch of egotistical and bored guys that havent a clue about the game - or about how to hit a baseball.

Total waste of bits and bytes.

IMO.

For the sake of being fair, I pmed MN-Mom and asked her to review my posts to see if I am indeed being unfair. I also asked her to edit my posts should she find any unscrupolous actions by myself. I would ask for any readers to go to my posts. Find any references to my belief system (Hitting camp) that have been made by me prior to another doing so. It is simple enough to check out my posts. Go to any of my posts. Click on CoachB25. A green screen will come up. Go to view prior posts. You'll find two things. One I post a lot and so must not have much of a life outside of baseball. Secondly, you'll see that I've never referenced PCR ever unless it is mentioned by another.

Tom’s degrading is self-inflicted. Nothing in Tom’s most recent post comes close to reality. The HG comments on Mark are flat out bogus and laughable. Tom can’t even get the golf plane story correct. He simply makes things up. He was recently called on this by BoardMember about what Hardy and Jacobsen say about the mlb swing. See what Ssarge said about what Hardy wrote in his book. Here is the Hardy/Jacobsen video reference.

Anyone that values the rules for rational and logical discussion will, after viewing the Hardy/Jacobsen material in the light of Tom’s post, conclude what most everyone else has concluded: Tom prevaricates.

I know Tom; we need to look to you to see what they really meant.

quote:

You have variously stated or at least supported the concept that there isn’t a scap load.

CoachB25, I have never seen Tom say or support this.....And, I feel I'm quite versed in what Tom has to say....

Actually, I have known Tom to say various times that scap load does ocur........

B25 -

you seem to be wearing the same rose coored glasseds that mark anf fofofo and the psse wear when they turn their brain over to their guru.

this makes those fertilizer rich mushrooms look just like a field of ripe strawberries as mark likes to say.

What i have said is that the scap work differently from the way ny-man describes and steve follows.

ny-man claimed in both throwing and hitting you wanted rapid scap loading unloading consiting of horizontal addcition then horizontalabductin of the back scap with or without some degreeof hook/pinch/horizontal adduction of the front scap.

i have said the back scap needs to remain loaded/not unpinch before contact because that is how "connection' works in the MLB pattern.

the scap can tilt or rotate up down, but not unpinch or you will decelerate befre contact.

steve has gome further and said, as quoted by siggy in pcr 101, that the cause of discnnection is external rotation of the back arm.

this is another mistake such that if you try to not externally rotate the back arm, you prevent adequately timed rubberbandwinding of the mLB pattern which REQUIRES synched external rotation f the front leg and back arm, just as it does in the overhand throw. see Hodge explain this in throwing on his BIOMECHANICBASEBALL tape.

so this is another example where pcr info is useless info for hitters who have the mlb pattern as their destination.

pcr can work great off a tee and in slopitch.

however, i think you do not see pcr "naturally" in slow pitch because what is natural fits with what the back arm does which is likely to resemble a high level overhand throw for men's slopitch.

steve is good enough to get some success in fastpitch. and watch out if he challenges you to a distance contest off the tee.

1 plane is a great thing for that. not very quick or adjustable late on the fly however.

i would beware of this advice in baseball, however.

More stupid BS - IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:

quote:

You have variously stated or at least supported the concept that there isn’t a scap load.

CoachB25, I have never seen Tom say or support this.....And, I feel I'm quite versed in what Tom has to say....

Actually, I have known Tom to say various times that scap load does ocur........

I stand corrected in this although Tom's post does allude to the fact that I read a discussion where he views the scap load differently. Thus my misinterpretation of his thoughts. I apologize for that.

4x4, good links and again, various posters can read for themselves and make their opinions based up what you've posted and linked.

quote:

Originally posted by tom.guerry:
B25 -

you seem to be wearing the same rose coored glasseds that mark anf fofofo and the psse wear when they turn their brain over to their guru.

This is what your prevarication has lead you to: ad hominem attacks when you are called on the carpet for mischaracterizations.

quote:

What i have said is that the scap work differently from the way ny-man describes and steve follows.

ny-man claimed in both throwing and hitting you wanted rapid scap loading unloading consiting of horizontal addcition then horizontalabductin of the back scap with or without some degreeof hook/pinch/horizontal adduction of the front scap.

i have said the back scap needs to remain loaded/not unpinch before contact because that is how "connection' works in the MLB pattern.

Prevarication: You've been all over the board on what you say. Englishbey has never limited this movement to just horizontal.

quote:

the scap can tilt or rotate up down, but not unpinch or you will decelerate befre contact.

Wrong. Motion analysis says differently so do the muscle guys you like to ignore.

quote:

steve has gome further and said, as quoted by siggy in pcr 101, that the cause of discnnection is external rotation of the back arm.

Prevarication: Englishbey has said that premature external rotation of the back arm is a form of disconnection.

quote:

this is another mistake such that if you try to not externally rotate the back arm, you prevent adequately timed rubberbandwinding of the mLB pattern which REQUIRES synched external rotation f the front leg and back arm, just as it does in the overhand throw. see Hodge explain this in throwing on his BIOMECHANICBASEBALL tape.

BS made up nonsense. How 'bout you just watch some video clips so you can see how wrong you are on this.

quote:

so this is another example where pcr info is useless info for hitters who have the mlb pattern as their destination.

pcr can work great off a tee and in slopitch.

however, i think you do not see pcr "naturally" in slow pitch because what is natural fits with what the back arm does which is likely to resemble a high level overhand throw for men's slopitch.

steve is good enough to get some success in fastpitch. and watch out if he challenges you to a distance contest off the tee.

1 plane is a great thing for that. not very quick or adjustable late on the fly however.

i would beware of this advice in baseball, however.

You can't even get the golf plane analysis correct. We'll stick with the experts Hardy/Jacobsen when they say:

"The actions of the arms in the one -plane downswing is very similar to that of a baseball swing .That is, at the top of the backswing, your left arm is across your chest with your right behind you, folded with the elbow pointing slightly behind you. Now if you look at the great power hitters in baseball. you'll see that from this position, they turn their shoulders and upper torso as hard and fast as they can toward the coming pitch.

"The torso is like an inner of centripetal force whose movement activates the bat, which recieves the outer or centrifugal effect when this force and its effects are applied correctly, the bat comes thru with crashing speed to meet the ball.

"Its the same principle in the one plane golf swing. You dont throw your arms and club at the ball; rather they get thrown around by the turn of the shoulders and torso."

Tom, go out and take some hacks, if you still can, and you'll see how far off you are. Work with a real hitter like Conner. Let us know how that's going. Maybe your stuff will work for t-ball age kids where anything goes.

b25 -

thanks for the apology. that is big of you.

fofofo-

it is truly a delight to hear from you again.

I think the baseball analogy is often fine for encouraging the feel of a one plane golf swing where you swing around the body as the body turns.

as hardy points out, that is how most people conceptualize swinging at a baseball waist high. 1 plane golfers can start with that thought then bend way over and stick their butt out as a counterbalance.

where have i heard that ?

this lines the 1 plane golfer up for the ball on the ground and helps prevent swinging over the top when they turn the shoulders hard from the top.



that is the same way it makes sense to many people when they think about how they should take a baseball hack. but the mlb pattern is different which is why traditionally you here players say;

swing down
stay behind the ball
hips and hands, shoulders "follow" (williams science of hitting video)
shift the weight.
hit against a firm front side,etc

these cues all fit the 2 plane golf and the mLB pattern.

they are not attempts to go on the snipe hunt of the objective swing description. thay are cues.

so when Barry says he swings down, that is an important feel for him regardless of what slaught shows him on video.

as jones said about the golf swing:

"very often what a man feels he is doing is more important than what he does. the feel, the experience, is so much easier to remember and repeat."

the golf experience shows that there are 2 patterns that work via the kinetic link in golf. two very different patterns that should not be confused or mixed.

i think it is most likely that there are also 2 patterns in the hitting swing.

i am as certain as possible there is not just one, which appears to be the pcr belief.

there could be more than 2, but i think 2 suffices to explain the findings of almost all the info discussed on the bb and fp boards.

quote:

i think it is most likely that there are also 2 patterns in the hitting swing.

i am as certain as possible there is not just one, which appears to be the pcr belief.

there could be more than 2, but i think 2 suffices to explain the findings of almost all the info discussed on the bb and fp boards.

I believe there are at least two, and possibly more, hitting patterns in MLB swings....

I do know, without a doubt in my mind, that not all MLB hitters swing with the same pattern.....There are differences.....

CoachB25 asked me to review this thread and let him know if I thought he was being biased.

I read through the thread. Some of it was very interesting. Some of it was not fun.

Beemax, thank you very much for your input. I really appreciate your baseball knowledge, and your willingness to share here...to try to help other posters/viewers without calling any attention to your own baseball accomplishments. Your posts remind me a lot of your dad. As you know, that is a very high compliment.

BlueDog and tom.guerry, I don't know enough about hitting to comment on the correctness of the technical aspects of your posts. But I see you both doing a lot of ego-driven posting. At least that is what it looks like when you frequently insult other posters and post riddles.

CoachB25, I've read through your posts, and I just honestly can't find the bias in your comments. The only bias I continue to see in your posts, is your leaning toward trying to be fair and civil toward posters who are not always fair and civil.

I do understand that you have some personal friendships and preferences in the world of hitting, and I think it's very fair of you that you have stated that publicly. Would it be fair of anyone to expect you to be completely disinterested, in order to remain completely unbiased? That is a silly expectation. Why would anyone donate their time to keep things as civil as possible in this forum and the IL forum, if they were not interested in the topics being discussed?

Coach, I continually see you trying to help the readers of our forums without boasting about yourself or your own knowledge. I see you putting up with a lot of C R A P without lashing back in an aggressive, insulting way. As itsinthegame mentioned, you must have a lot of patience. If you ever get tired of putting up with this, I'll just go out and find another moderator like you. And then after that I'll win the lottery and become the queen of England. Yeah, those things are pretty likely to happen, too.

Folks, sorry if I am showing my bias here. I am biased toward total gratitude for a moderator like CoachB25 who works so hard to keep our forums decent and positive... at least as positive as is possible with all of the strong opinions on these topics. I appreciate him more than I can say, and I know that a lot of you do, too.

Julie

BLUEDOG

You and others have a load of cyber jibberish which is tough to understand--the problem is that a 10 to 12 year sees what the MLB'ers do but they cannot do it themselves physically and they get frustrated--there is a need to go back to the simple basics, and do it in English not cybertalk and physics talk.

I do not know if you get NESN where Jerry Remy, ex Red Sox Second Sacker, does color for the Red Sox. He did a very simple breakdown on Manny the other night---one regarding an inside pitch and what Manny does---another on a outside pitch and how Manny handles that--- nothing high tech--in fact very simple---just watch Mannys front foot and where it goes-- I even understood it and that has to tell you something--mainly because he did it in English.

You luagh at little things like
move a step up in the box to stop hitting groundballs" but it does worok --a kid can do this with no problem and all of a sudden he is getting hits--his confidence surges and he is all set


Just my thoughts


ADdendum---now isnt that interesting===Bluedog makes a post I respond to and then all of a sudden is evaporates---did he delete it? Or did Tom?

MN-Mom, thanks for the kind words. Should I ever be too much of a problem child with my posting in this forum, you know you won't hurt my feelings if I get fired. Besides, the retirement incentives aren't that good. With regards to hitting, I've always wondered about the good and bad of instruction. I take my role as a coach very seriously. Therefore, I've always continued to read sources. At one point, I thought I was an expert. I realized I was not. Getting to see up close MLB players swing and sit in a workout or two, I knew I wasn't. I've had a lot of success. No Resume to follow. I am often asked to speak at baseball clinics on hitting. Why? Because our program has such a tremendous reputation for hitting. You all know that a major part of that is having the horses to get it done. I've never made that a secret. When you've coached as many D-I players and guys that have gone on to pro ball, I'm thinking that there is a pretty good pipeline. I don't post what we do/did often. I did try to add some instructional thoughts in my first post on this topic and regarding the use of the Tee. I'd like to stay out of posting. Certain members know what they need to do in order for that to happen. Then, we'll all be happy and I can read and learn.

quote:

You luagh at little things like
move a step up in the box to stop hitting groundballs" but it does worok --a kid can do this with no problem and all of a sudden he is getting hits--his confidence surges and he is all set

TRhit, I don't laugh at this stuff....To the contrary, it makes me sad.......

I see these quick fixes all the time.....It does help Coaches win games with the younger kids, but, what have they accomplished for the kid?...

How about that kid, TRhit?.....That kid is not all set....He hasn't learned how not to hit ground balls off pitchers at the next level....Not even close...

Well-done Tom. You've done an outstanding job of validating my point. You have snookered yourself on the golf plane analysis so you've resorted to your usual tactic of throwing out an ivory towers worth of useless verbiage at your conundrum to distract attention away from your faux pa.

quote:

as hardy points out, that is how most people conceptualize swinging at a baseball

No Tom. Hardy's pretty clear on what he says notwithstanding your ever present desire to tell us what he means.

Hardy:

"The actions of the arms in the one -plane downswing is very similar to that of a baseball swing .That is, at the top of the backswing, your left arm is across your chest with your right behind you, folded with the elbow pointing slightly behind you. Now if you look at the great power hitters in baseball. you'll see that from this position, they turn their shoulders and upper torso as hard and fast as they can toward the coming pitch.

"The torso is like an inner of centripetal force whose movement activates the bat, which recieves the outer or centrifugal effect when this force and its effects are applied correctly, the bat comes thru with crashing speed to meet the ball."

"Its the same principle in the one plane golf swing. You dont throw your arms and club at the ball; rather they get thrown around by the turn of the shoulders and torso."

quote:

that is the same way it makes sense to many people when they think about how they should take a baseball hack. but the mlb pattern is different which is why traditionally you here players say;

Keep telling us what everybody else means Tom. We'll be sure not to pull back the curtain and actually look.

quote:

so when Barry says he swings down, that is an important feel for him regardless of what slaught shows him on video.

You forgot to let everyone else in on the rest of the story. He went to Arod and showed him how he doesn't swing down. This wasn't about feel or cues. It was about what they thought they were doing vs. what they actually did (what actually happens in a real swing Tom) quantified via video.

quote:

the golf experience shows that there are 2 patterns that work via the kinetic link in golf. two very different patterns that should not be confused or mixed.

i think it is most likely that there are also 2 patterns in the hitting swing.

Tom, this is progress. This is a new admission for you.

quote:

i am as certain as possible there is not just one, which appears to be the pcr belief.

I don't know what "pcr belief" means. You throw that around in a pejorative way for reason we are both familiar with. It's a poor approach for you to take. PCR has always been an analysis tool for me to break down amateur hitters and compare them to elite hitters. It's not a set of drills or a teaching method. I don't think it was meant to be that.

My belief is that there are hitters like Bonds and Sheffield and there are guys like Juston Upton, Beltran, Thomas, Burrell, A. Ramirez, Hunter.... They all do some things very much the same in terms of how they unload the swing. What happens during the unloading phase seems pretty universal to me. Those things are foundational and are a must teach. There is commonality in the loading sequence of these hitters with some variance. The pre-load rhythm is often different between hitters. I don't discourage that rhythm in young hitters or their loading pattern in general. I will try to help them optimize it or suggest alternatives that might fit them better. My approach is very much influenced by Englishbey.

You may not like ***** and you may have legitimate reason for that dislike. But the hitter most associated with ***** is R.Stock and he is no doubt an elite level baseball player with an elite level swing. Stock senior attributes his son's success in the box to what he learned from *****. Any discussion or assertion beyond that is absurd on its face.

quote:

You and others have a load of cyber jibberish which is tough to understand

TRhit, yes we do.....

Tom's posts are extremely hard to understand most of the time....He's a doctor and he has a brilliant mind....I'm not and I don't...So, I have to read his posts many times to understand what he is saying.....

quote:

Tom, this is progress. This is a new admission for you.


quote:
i am as certain as possible there is not just one, which appears to be the pcr belief.

FoFo, you are misrepresenting Tom......This is definitely nothing new....

I talked to someone not long ago who has had many discussions with Tom and believes there are at least four swing patterns...

Bluedog

Again you say nothing---I think you are a cyber sham---like many others--you guys "dog" all the other cyber shams just for your ego---you have never answered questions, not ever--- and now you expouse the TG theories which you say you don't even undertsand---you guys are like a little club unto yourselves

ANSWER QUESTIONS !!!!


By the way if I have a kid who has a fifth w swing pattern and and he is hitting .500 at a high level---is that pattern no good because it is not one of the four hitting patterns?

TRhit, I knew your attack was coming.....Nothing new from you.....

How about the kid, TRhit?...Move him up in the box this year...How about next year?...Another Coaches problem?

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:

Tom's posts are extremely hard to understand most of the time....He's a doctor and he has a brilliant mind....I'm not and I don't...So, I have to read his posts many times to understand what he is saying.....

Very true LOL - Most mere mortals just arent smart enough to understand this never ending cascade of ever changing ego-driven BS - from an anonymous, unintelligible, self proclaimed cyber "expert".

On the other hand - those who have actually played the game - and taught others to play the game successfully - know nothing. LOL

Total BS spewed by total BS artists.

And, to think Game, you once agreed with Richard....You thought he was smart....That was before he changed his mind, though....

Bluedog

Attack is a strong word-- but then to you anything might be strong that disagrees with you---you cannot answer a QUESTION every---do you have taps on those sneakers while you dance

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
And, to think Game, you once agreed with Richard....You thought he was smart....That was before he changed his mind, though....

You are lying.

I never commented on Richard's intelligence. It isnt my place to do so - nor is it meaningful to me in any way whether he is a genius or a moron.

I did like a few of his posts (out of the thousands he put up) - the ones that illustrated some basics about the swing.

I also remember in great detail when both of you neophytes laughed at the posts that Bbscout and I put up concerning the importance of the hands/arms and wrists in a baseball swing.

That stupidity lasted about a year - and then you both - once again - changed your tune. I believe you two called it an "evolution in your thought process". In reality - it was just a reflection of your naivete and inexperience.

Get real and leave your ego at the door. Then - maybe - you might really learn something.

quote:

You are lying.

No...

quote:

I never commented on Richard's intelligence.

quote:

That stupidity lasted about a year

BLuedog

Keep listening--I said it all and in ENGLISH---answer the questions you have been asked over the past months---go for it cyberjockey

Well, kind of like Spring cleaning, (or dose of ex-lax) we have that all out in the open. Now let's get back to the topic. Muscles in hitting.

Redbird's post on the lats and the abs is something that my daughter mentions a lot. However, I don't remember that ever. I do remember soreness in the pelvic area and now realize that it was from inefficient movement. A kind of squishing the bug movement where I was very harsh in movement. I was a non athlete trying to perform athletic movements. I did do a lot of work on the Tee even at that time. My Dad built a fiberglass shed on the back of our house for me to do so. I lived in a very economically depressed area and so, no one complained about the unsighly addition.

BTW, they showed Pujos' home run on both Baseball Tonight and our news. They had a very interesting angle on the swing. I'd love to have it. I think it'd go miles in demonstrating some concepts constantly discussed on various sites.

quote:

Redbird's post on the lats and the abs is something that my daughter mentions a lot.

Coach, the core muscles are often misunderstood, IMO.....Most concentrate on the lower abs with situps and weights, but the upper abs is where the concentration should be focused....The area that ends at the base of the sternum....

The glute muscles control the upper abs....So, to work the upper abs, the glutes must be worked....This requires a bending backwards stretching motion/action....Alot of Coaches don't understand this.....The lower abs get worked in the process as they are in-between the upper abs and the glutes....And, the lats get worked as they provide the upper body resistance the glutes need to bend backwards...

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:

quote:

Redbird's post on the lats and the abs is something that my daughter mentions a lot.

Coach, the core muscles are often misunderstood, IMO.....Most concentrate on the lower abs with situps and weights, but the upper abs is where the concentration should be focused....The area that ends at the base of the sternum....

The glute muscles control the upper abs....So, to work the upper abs, the glutes must be worked....This requires a bending backwards stretching motion/action....Alot of Coaches don't understand this.....The lower abs get worked in the process as they are in-between the upper abs and the glutes....And, the lats get worked as they provide the upper body resistance the glutes need to bend backwards...

I'd agree with this and would also suggest a good medicine ball program. Medicine balls have been chucked to the wayside and yet, they are so valuable as a training tool for both hitters and pitchers. I don't understand why people think freeweights are the cure all. While valuable, they are no more valuable than medicine balls and a good plyometric program. JMHO!