@adbono posted:Because IMO the article isn’t as advertised. I already said that. Maybe you missed it.
What do you mean by "the article isn't as advertised"?
Do you mean the link didn't work?
@SpeedDemon posted:What do you mean by "the article isn't as advertised"?
Do you mean the link didn't work?
The author of the article promoted it as being more than it is. I have already explained that too. Seems to me that you are just trying to stir up trouble
@adbono posted:The author of the article promoted it as being more than it is. I have already explained that too. Seems to me that you are just trying to stir up trouble
Trouble? No, balance.
HSBBW is here to share and inform.
Saying "I already explained that", "that is common knowledge", "you missed it" serves no purpose, other than to alienate people who aren't "in the know" and boost the ego of those who feel they are.
You obviously don't realize how off-putting many of your comments are.
I think it is more than reasonable to question the premise of the article-golden age of college baseball. The House settlement isn’t final nor is it approved. Even if it gets done there are other lawsuits of a somewhat similar nature against the NCAA.
If House gets done, division 1 schools will have their monetary distributions from the NCAA reduced by $1.6 billion. Non-power 4 schools will need to pay nearly $300,000,000 of the settlement…and they are not even parties to the lawsuit.
This does not even consider the $20,000,000 annually obligated to pay athletes-in addition to scholarship costs and possibly NIL money.
Non Power 4 and even some Power 4 (perhaps in the Big 10) may face enormous financial funding issues in their athletic departments without even expanding their challenges by Title IX factors.
in contrast to a Golden Age, one might question whether a 64 team Regional going forward will come only from the Power 4. Reading a number of legal and business articles analyzing House raise fundamental concerns whether athletic departments in mid-majors or those outside the Power 4 will be able to meet the financial commitments for 30 baseball scholarships when those costs are added to the House settlement mandates. If there will be a Golden Age, it may be limited to a small number of elite programs.
@infielddad posted:I think it is more than reasonable to question the premise of the article-golden age of college baseball. The House settlement isn’t final nor is it approved. Even if it gets done there are other lawsuits of a somewhat similar nature against the NCAA.
If House gets done, division 1 schools will have their monetary distributions from the NCAA reduced by $1.6 billion. Non-power 4 schools will need to pay nearly $300,000,000 of the settlement…and they are not even parties to the lawsuit.
This does not even consider the $20,000,000 annually obligated to pay athletes-in addition to scholarship costs and possibly NIL money.
Non Power 4 and even some Power 4 (perhaps in the Big 10) may face enormous financial funding issues in their athletic departments without even expanding their challenges by Title IX factors.
in contrast to a Golden Age, one might question whether a 64 team Regional going forward will come only from the Power 4. Reading a number of legal and business articles analyzing House raise fundamental concerns whether athletic departments in mid-majors or those outside the Power 4 will be able to meet the financial commitments for 30 baseball scholarships when those costs are added to the House settlement mandates. If there will be a Golden Age, it may be limited to a small number of elite programs.
Right. Great insight.
I was also wondering how the student-as-employee lawsuit, which just got greenlighted to move forward, will play with these new scholarships and NIL.
@SpeedDemon posted:Trouble? No, balance.
HSBBW is here to share and inform.
Saying "I already explained that", "that is common knowledge", "you missed it" serves no purpose, other than to alienate people who aren't "in the know" and boost the ego of those who feel they are.
You obviously don't realize how off-putting many of your comments are.
I suggest you read the post above by @infielddad.
I'm curious - for a 30,000-student state school, 15 more scholarships is a drop in the bucket. For a 2000-student private school, it's much more significant.
Most of the P4s are on the larger size, or else very wealthy private (Duke, NWU, Stanford, Vandy). I would think that all of this would hit the smaller, less wealthy private D1s the most - schools that are trying to maintain D1 status where it's just not going to work.
@adbono posted:I suggest you read the post above by @infielddad.
Yeah, it's a great post.
You didn't write it.
@SpeedDemon posted:Yeah, it's a great post.
You didn't write it.
You obviously don’t realize how off-putting many of your comments are.
@adbono posted:You obviously don’t realize how off-putting many of your comments are.
Come on, you could be more original. Repeating what I say really isn't the best comeback. Try to put more thought into it next time.
Since your ego makes you impenetrable to feedback, I'll just say good luck. I tried.
@SpeedDemon posted:Come on, you could be more original. Repeating what I say really isn't the best comeback. Try to put more thought into it next time.
Since your ego makes you impenetrable to feedback, I'll just say good luck. I tried.
I don’t come to this site looking for someone to argue with or something to be offended about. If you don’t like my posts then don’t read them.
@adbono posted:I don’t come to this site looking for someone to argue with or something to be offended about. If you don’t like my posts then don’t read them.
Same
@TPM posted:
MLB teams want college programs to develop their players because, for every player that they call up within a certain time frame, bonus $$ are given to that team from MLB. JMO
I wasn’t aware of this program, thanks. Draft picks and bonus dollars.
@SpeedDemon posted:Right. Great insight.
I was also wondering how the student-as-employee lawsuit, which just got greenlighted to move forward, will play with these new scholarships and NIL.
As MLB did when confronted with the MILB players class action for past wage violations (settled for $185,000,000), the NCAA is trying to get Congress to pre-empt the issue and pass a law saying athletes are not employees.
One problem among others is that other than Federal employees, railroad and maritime workers, work injury matters are covered by State law and there can be wide variation among all 50 States.
The NCAA does not want the financial responsibility for lifetime medical care for every college athlete who incurs a serious injury.
In effect, the NCAA is trying to argue athletes are similar to Uber/Lyft drivers and colleges do not have the “right” to control the manner in which athletes train, play and compete in their college sport. “Right to Control “ is a pivotal factor in most States in determining employment status. California actually has a law passed well over 60 years ago that excludes college athletes from being employees (which is also being challenged).
My personal opinion is Congress needs to stay out of this. It truly is a State issue
@infielddad posted:As MLB did when confronted with the MILB players class action for past wage violations (settled for $185,000,000), the NCAA is trying to get Congress to pre-empt the issue and pass a law saying athletes are not employees.
One problem among others is that other than Federal employees, railroad and maritime workers, work injury matters are covered by State law and there can be wide variation among all 50 States.
The NCAA does not want the financial responsibility for lifetime medical care for every college athlete who incurs a serious injury.
In effect, the NCAA is trying to argue athletes are similar to Uber/Lyft drivers and colleges do not have the “right” to control the manner in which athletes train, play and compete in their college sport. “Right to Control “ is a pivotal factor in most States in determining employment status. California actually has a law passed well over 60 years ago that excludes college athletes from being employees (which is also being challenged).
My personal opinion is Congress needs to stay out of this. It truly is a State issue
Thanks.
Yes, I understand the 3-part test to determine contractor vs employee. Multiple state courts seem to be learning towards the students right now, saying they are more like employees than contractors.
I can understand why the NCAA would want Congress to step in front of this (via an anti-trust exemption) although I doubt they will.
But I don't understand the healthcare aspect: the schools already have 100s or 1000s of employees. How does adding a few hundred student-athletes change anything, administratively? Seems like the only argument is that the student-athlete-employees are younger and more prone to injury so the schools don't want them on their insurance. But a lot of public schools self-insure, as do many of the large privates, so what is the actual additional cost?
Unless you're saying that all student-athletes become employees of the NCAA, not the individual universities.
Thanks.
If they are employees and are injured, the legal obligation is to provide treatment FOR LIFE!
One important example is traumatic brain injury/concussions/long term.
If college athletes are employees, the NFL model is helpful. The team as the employer pays the medical care for life.
The NCAA is a 3rd party to sue for pain, suffering and loss of eatnings.
I could be wrong on the number but my recall is the NFL paid $4-5 billion to settle TBI player lawsuits.
@infielddad posted:In effect, the NCAA is trying to argue athletes are similar to Uber/Lyft drivers and colleges do not have the “right” to control the manner in which athletes train, play and compete in their college sport. “Right to Control “ is a pivotal factor in most States in determining employment status.
Well, that's kind of a joke, then. Is the idea that coaches are just "suggesting" to the athletes how they might want to train, and just "suggesting" to them what pitch to throw, and whether to bunt, and who goes in as a reliever? I mean, I guess you could argue it that way.
@MidAtlanticDad posted:I wasn’t aware of this program, thanks. Draft picks and bonus dollars.
Thank you! I wasn't aware of details.
@infielddad posted:If they are employees and are injured, the legal obligation is to provide treatment FOR LIFE!
One important example is traumatic brain injury/concussions/long term.
If college athletes are employees, the NFL model is helpful. The team as the employer pays the medical care for life.
The NCAA is a 3rd party to sue for pain, suffering and loss of eatnings.
I could be wrong on the number but my recall is the NFL paid $4-5 billion to settle TBI player lawsuits.
Got it. Makes sense. Thanks.
I don't know maybe I'm just bitter but I hate everything that has happened with college sports since COVID. NIL, transfer rules, lawsuits...it's getting old to me and quite frankly college sports have gotten worse (as a product, not skill).
Should athletes been able to have made money off their name? Probably. Should we really be entertaining a legitimate discussion where kids (who are rarely qualified for admission into the school) are not only getting to attend for free but that they should be considered employees of the university?
It's pretty disappointing for Kendall Rodgers to refer to this as the Golden Age of Baseball when the information in his article will destroy conferences and only make the Top 25 even stronger.
Maybe I'm the old man yelling at clouds now but I really hate the current state of college athletics. Sure it's fun to watch the CWS but is it going to be fun watching your local mid major close the door on baseball in 6 years?
@PABaseball posted:I don't know maybe I'm just bitter but I hate everything that has happened with college sports since COVID. NIL, transfer rules, lawsuits...it's getting old to me and quite frankly college sports have gotten worse (as a product, not skill).
Should athletes been able to have made money off their name? Probably. Should we really be entertaining a legitimate discussion where kids (who are rarely qualified for admission into the school) are not only getting to attend for free but that they should be considered employees of the university?
It's pretty disappointing for Kendall Rodgers to refer to this as the Golden Age of Baseball when the information in his article will destroy conferences and only make the Top 25 even stronger.
Maybe I'm the old man yelling at clouds now but I really hate the current state of college athletics. Sure it's fun to watch the CWS but is it going to be fun watching your local mid major close the door on baseball in 6 years?
Feels like the pendulum swung too hard in one direction - the NCAA went too far in trying to control athletes and keep them away from the ballooning revenue stream.
And now it's swinging back hard in the other direction, although I don't think it's done (Why doesn't the Ivy League allow scholarships? Why are there 3 separate divisions that can't play each other?).
Prob going to be 5-10 years before this all settles into a new equilibrium.
But yeah, it's sad.
The NFL and NBA should have been forced to pay for their own minor leagues. Instead, MLB is outsourcing their minor leagues to the NCAA.
I see things differently and have no issue with what's happening in college sports as well as in pro ball, especially MIL and the draft.
It's like 2 different worlds since son went off to college in 2004 then got drafted in 2007 but I like the 2024 version better.
For both women and men.
Good question. Ivy League has no scholarships. It's based on need and opportunity, pretty sure.
As far as how 3 different divisions came about, I have no clue.
But, I think it's athletics that drives that bus.
@TPM posted:Good question. Ivy League has no scholarships. It's based on need and opportunity, pretty sure.
As far as how 3 different divisions came about, I have no clue.
But, I think it's athletics that drives that bus.
So son is super smart, but not sure we can swing the cost of ivy. Is it even worth looking into?
Oh, son likes the campus feel, not the city feel, ruled out big cites, (Gw, Umbc, etc…) that “type” of school
@Dadof3 posted:So son is super smart, but not sure we can swing the cost of ivy. Is it even worth looking into?
It takes less than 5 minutes to fill out the Net Price Calculator for each school. You might be surprised at the level of aid.
@MidAtlanticDad posted:It takes less than 5 minutes to fill out the Net Price Calculator for each school. You might be surprised at the level of aid.
The wealthier the school, the more financial aid they give. Ivies estimate what you can provide each year, then they give you the rest.
Not quite sure what the bee in the bonnet about Ivies and scholarships is. The Ivy League acts like a D3 conference (no scholarships, 40 games) but plays in D1 - who cares, if that's what they want to do? It's not a secret that they don't give athletic scholarships, the athletes know the deal. The reputation of the schools allows them to recruit D1-level athletes.
And, there's no rule against D1s playing D3s - occasionally it happens, I assume the reason they don't do it more is that sometimes the D3 beats the Ivy 
.
Perhaps you and other parents who have more experience with HA D1 and D3 can explain the process can start a topic to help those first coming to the site.
Thanks in advance!
@anotherparent posted:The wealthier the school, the more financial aid they give.
We experienced this when my son was being recruited by Duke earlier on in high school. Before coach would make an offer, he had us fill out their tuition calculator to see what the school would pay before the athletics scholarship. The coach said that pretty much everyone at Duke is pretty much on some type of financial aid from the school.
@RJM posted:Some Ivies charge 10% of household income.
Interesting
As some have said here, this will only deepen the already considerable division between the "haves" and "have nots" in Division I. Because there are close to 300 Division I baseball programs, most of whom won't be able to afford the change, it's hard to imagine that what we've known as Division I won't be split in two. My guesstimate is that 40 - 50 will end up in the upper tier, leaving 250 - 260 relegated to the lower division.
The exodus of the best G5 players and coaches into the P4 (and MLB in the case of some of the the coaches) has already begun and will accelerate. You don't have to look far from this topic to help explain the recent moves by two very fine G5 coaches: Justin Haire (Campbell to Ohio State) and Scott Jackson (Liberty to UNC-Chapel Hill).
Count me among those who thought the college game was pretty special when more than the 40-or-so best-funded programs could realistically compete at the highest levels. Those days are rapidly fading.
If the players are determined to be employees, wouldn't they then be eligible for state employee retirement programs if it is a public university? Can't see tax payers being happy about paying retirement benefits on top of tuition costs and other costs associated with having a successful football program.
@anotherparent posted:The wealthier the school, the more financial aid they give. Ivies estimate what you can provide each year, then they give you the rest.
Not quite sure what the bee in the bonnet about Ivies and scholarships is. The Ivy League acts like a D3 conference (no scholarships, 40 games) but plays in D1 - who cares, if that's what they want to do? It's not a secret that they don't give athletic scholarships, the athletes know the deal. The reputation of the schools allows them to recruit D1-level athletes.
And, there's no rule against D1s playing D3s - occasionally it happens, I assume the reason they don't do it more is that sometimes the D3 beats the Ivy
"the NCAA v. Alston decision handed down in 2021, in which the Supreme Court ruled that the NCAA’s restriction on education-related compensation was a violation of antitrust law. The decision led to the NCAA instituting the Name, Image and Likeness policy (NIL)...
Although the Ivy League was not a party in the Alston case, the Plaintiffs argued that since the Ivy League schools are members of the NCAA, they should be held to the same antitrust standards as other colleges."
https://www2.law.temple.edu/vo...hletic-scholarships/
D3 and D1 teams compete off-season only.
@TerribleBPthrower posted:If the players are determined to be employees, wouldn't they then be eligible for state employee retirement programs if it is a public university? Can't see tax payers being happy about paying retirement benefits on top of tuition costs and other costs associated with having a successful football program.
Agree with the above.
@SpeedDemon posted:D3 and D1 teams compete off-season only.
Some do compete in-season. Not sure how it is counted (stats, etc.) but it does happen.
@SpeedDemon posted:"the NCAA v. Alston decision handed down in 2021, in which the Supreme Court ruled that the NCAA’s restriction on education-related compensation was a violation of antitrust law. The decision led to the NCAA instituting the Name, Image and Likeness policy (NIL)...
Although the Ivy League was not a party in the Alston case, the Plaintiffs argued that since the Ivy League schools are members of the NCAA, they should be held to the same antitrust standards as other colleges."
https://www2.law.temple.edu/vo...hletic-scholarships/
D3 and D1 teams compete off-season only.
You've mentioned this before. I don't know why anyone should care that Ivy schools don't provide athletic scholarships. If the players want athletic scholarships, they can go elsewhere.
Is Alston going to mean that D3 schools have to offer scholarships? Because then many schools will drop all sports except for intramurals. And that would be a shame.
D3 vs. D1 in the regular season does happen. It happened this year. The stats are counted in the D1 and the D3 stat lines for the teams and individually.
@ABSORBER posted:Some do compete in-season. Not sure how it is counted (stats, etc.) but it does happen.
U of Maine plays midweeks against D3s I believe.
@anotherparent posted:You've mentioned this before. I don't know why anyone should care that Ivy schools don't provide athletic scholarships. If the players want athletic scholarships, they can go elsewhere.
Is Alston going to mean that D3 schools have to offer scholarships? Because then many schools will drop all sports except for intramurals. And that would be a shame.
D3 vs. D1 in the regular season does happen. It happened this year. The stats are counted in the D1 and the D3 stat lines for the teams and individually.
Got it re: D1 vs D3. Thanks.
With the Ivy League digging in their heels against athletic scholarships and choosing to continue the fight in court, they risk a judicial decision that could apply anti-trust to all NCAA schools that don’t compensate athletes, including D3.
More details and history