Need some advice re: HS pitching

Our sons sound like twins, except I think mine eats a little more and just a little more velocity. He has always been a good pitcher but has never had any real lessons or anyone really work with him.

 

He has recently started some lessons and several very successful and respected coaches have all seen him workout and/or pitch in the last few months. They have all had the same opinion, to not fall off toward first base side, and even used the same drill that you describe.. It may be a little uncomfortable for him initially , but I think the concensus is that long term it will benefit him.

 

With your son being a 2019, I would think that the HS coach is looking longer term as well.

Best of luck!

From your post, these sound like really good HS coaches who have been successful and know the game.  From your post, it sounds like they have the very best in mind for your son. From your post, it sounds like they see a flaw (and it does sound like a flaw) which needs correction.  Why not let them coach the adjustments?

Throwing as hard as you can with bad mechanics at the age of your son creates risks of arm injury coupled  with risks that he will top out and a lower level,  at an earlier stage, because of his mechanics. 

I agree with InfieldDad,

Velocity is great, with the correct mechanics. Which is more project-able? 

1. Maximum effort pitcher throwing 89 with bad mechanics.
2. Minimum effort pitcher throwing 86 - 87 with proer mechanics

Sorry, but this is going to be harsh.  It sounds like the kid pitches like his hair is on fire.  If he continues to pitch like he does he's going to be torched in HS.  High school hitters can hit mid 70's fastballs into orbit.  And you can't defend a walk.  So he needs to get with the program and follow the coach's advice as they are professional, experienced, and successful.  Once he gains more command, better mechanics, and as he grows the additional velocity will come.    

Your son will have a hard time ever getting much time on a good HS team's pitching mound, let alone a college mound without very good-to-great command.  BTW, "command" does not equal "throwing strikes."  Its a much higher and coveted skill.

 

I'd advise your son to listen to his coaches.  Seems to me they most certainly have the long term in mind.

2019DAD,

 

Maybe I’m wrong, but ‘m guessing you’re having a difficult time reconciling the HS coaches’ perceptions vs. the very high profile high school travel team’s perceptions, thinking if he has all the problems the HS coaches identify, he wouldn’t have made the travel team. I’m also guessing you’re just a bit piqued that the HS coaches have the presumption to tell you and the boy what you can do on your own time with your own $$$$.

 

I’ve been through this same scenario in many different iterations and can say that it sure looks as though the HS coaches are on the right track and looking to protect the boy a lot more than the travel team is.

 

As for the other stuff like his control and mechanics, I have to agree with what others have said.

 

Good luck.

Does your boy fall off like Kershaw, Sale and Fulmer?

One problem comes with the perception that many coaches have that simply slowing down velocity will automatically equal improved control. It's never been my experience that this is true. It also doesn't seem, from what you've posted, that his control is so bad as to have noticeably affected his production. Throwing high seventies and having a coach preach slowing down for control rings odd to me. As to the "problem" of falling of towards first; I've never seen it as a problem for a righty. Trying to correct it seems to be addressing a non-problem that will cause more harm than good. However, it is your son who will have to read the situation and decide whether adjusting as his HS coach wants is necessary if he is to see mound time.

Some think this is one of the best ever. Watch this video, show it to your pitching instructor.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aj0INMgRJso

 

 

Here is another Hall of famer to watch.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4osTw6HVLAk

Someone gave us good advice when son entered into HS. The more people who tell your son what to do the more confused he will be.  You have gotten some good advice here, but the more advice you get the more confused you will get, so at this point, I would stick with the HS coaches who seem to know what they are doing, because your son is going to be with them for the next 4 years.  

 

So think about it and think about how young he is and what is more important at this time. 

 

#1, your son needs to learn to throw the 4 seam because all the other pitches work off of that pitch. Once he gets that down, he can throw it as hard as he wants. He is young so IMO he does not need to throw hard just to throw hard, but he does need to learn command of his pitches. The weight will come as he matures and begins a steady conditioning  routine.

 

This process is not a sprint but a marathon, so take one step at a time in his development.

Thanks! Another poster suggested that my son pitches like his hair is on fire. When I say "falling off" it is very similar to Pedro. Not as extreme as Gibson.

Yes! And Pedro, Gibson, and too many MLB pitchers to count. The HS pitching coach is looking for something like Maddux -- perfect fielding position after throwing. Not that there is anything wrong with that, either. I don't think there is one-size-fits-all.

Thanks. It's not so much the travel team -- he's not pitching for them so that part has no conflict.

 

I don't know, maybe this kind of thing happens all the time.

Thanks. Regarding high school hitters sending mid 70's fastballs into orbit, agree 100%! That is why he is trying to throw harder.

 

Regarding "once he gains more command, better mechanics, and as he grows the additional velocity will come." I do not agree with this. At least, I see no evidence for it.

 

Part of the reason I included the details about the pitching coach's playing career is because he had the greatest command possible. His high school career could not have been better, and it was largely due to his unbelievable command. There is essentially a 0% chance that 2019Son, or any of the pitchers on the team, will be as good in high school as the pitching coach was. But the pitching coach's impeccable command did not lead to more velocity -- at least not the velocity required to have a successful college career.

Do u expect 14 yr olds to have perfect mechanics?

Not like he is a Sr and they r trying to change things. Let them help fix what needs to be worked on. 

u said its a great HS program and most go on to play in college, mostly D1. They must be doing something right. Sons just a Fr. And your already not happy? Gonna be a long 4 yrs. 

let coaches be in control, remember you chose this school, and see how it goes next Spring/Summer w him playing on two diff teams. He'll have a yr of conditioning by then and will be taller/stronger as u predict. 

Just curious, 7.4 is a bit slow, what's he doing to reach the 6.8 you predict he can be? 

A lot can happen in 4 yrs,  Developing son for next level  is a work in progress, good luck. Sounds like he has good opportunities to succeed. 

Oh, one more thing. Regarding "If he continues to pitch like he does he's going to be torched in HS," um, not sure what you mean. Do you mean "if he doesn't improve from the way he pitched the summer after 8th grade then he'll get torched in high school?" If that's what you mean, sure, I agree 100%.

Thanks. It's not so much the travel team. More like "we-really-really-really-want-you-to-come-to-our-school" and now, when he gets there, "you need to overhaul your mechanics".

 

I don't know, maybe this kind of thing happens all the time.

I have an idea of at least one HS you may be talking about and by the way, that type of 'undue influence' to get you to attend a HS is absolutely against the rules in California where you live.  Its called 'recruiting.'  You may not want to talk about it so publicly.  Our younger son was faced with such attempts at undue influence...he just never went there (thank goodness).

 

Also, organized 'practices' at this time of the year is against the rules in most parts of CA (if not all) as well.

Thanks. In August he started working once per week with a speed/track coach. Some of the improvement will come from better starts, some from maturing, getting stronger, and working on speed.

 

One clarification, though: 7.4 is not slow for 14, at least not if it is accurately timed. On the PG website the current average for the class of 2019 is 7.76, and a 7.4 is around the 70th-75th percentile. For the class of 2016, the current average is 7.35. So on average the seniors are .4 seconds faster than the freshman. Individual results will vary, but I'd expect most seniors are noticeably faster than they were as freshmen.

       
       
I think the issue Root is when is he 'falling'?  If as part of the follow through who cares.  But if he is opening early and LANDING toward first then big problem.

Follow-through. If anything, he has a tendency to land slightly in the other direction.

       
       
I really miss those days when pitchers had flair!  Coaches now would pull their hair out with Koufax, Marichal, Tiant and so many more.

       
       
Then nobody should care.  And again we all have to realize while hitting is a cookie cutter thing (once the actual swing starts) pitching is not.  There are many ways to succeed as a pitcher.  Worst thing to do is try to make them all look the same.

I don't have a huge problem with a pitcher falling off some to the glove side.  However, it has to be for the right reasons.  If momentum is TRULY carrying him off as you say, then ok.  I'm not sure 77 mph is enough momentum to truly carry him off though.  Gibson and Pedro both threw upper 90's and that is enough momentum to carry someone off.  

 

With that said, I'm not sure the old garbage can trick is the right way to go about the change.  One of the things that will often carry a pitcher off to the glove side is the front side opening up too early and the momentum of the pitcher actually becomes too rotational and does not allow all the pitcher's momentum carry him towards the plate.  The other thing that happens is opening up too early will cause arm drag, which is detrimental to the shoulder and elbow.  If you watch the videos of Gibson and Pedro, you will see that both of them keep the front shoulder closed for a long time.  If you watch Pedro, his glove remains close to his body all the way thru his delivery.  With Gibson, his glove remains close to his body until after his throwing arm comes thru, then it swings wildly, carrying his body towards 1st base.  Point is, both of them keep the front shoulder closed as long as possible in order to increase hip/shoulder separation, which creates torque which increases velocity.

 

Like I said in the beginning, I don't have a big problem with falling off.  As long it is for the right reasons.  There is nothing wrong with striving to finish in a fielding position.  All the mechanics that go along with that are beneficial.  If momentum carries you off, fine.  Just make sure you're son's mechanics leading up to the falling off are solid.  Maybe his current mechanics are preventing him from throwing harder.  If his momentum is more towards 1st base during his delivery, it could be robbing some mph's.  The fall shouldn't come until after the ball is released.  Until then, all momentum should be directly towards the plate.

 

Without seeing your son actually throw, it is hard to say whether his falling off is good or bad.  Could be either.

There is a method to the madness.  Young pitcher's should be taught to land a specific way to protect themselves.  Maddux's mechanics should be the goal.  Nothing wrong with learning while you are young. The younger the better.

I am trying to figure out exactly what your issue is?

Was your son recruited to attend a specific HS?

No.

 

He is struggling with changing the way he's pitched, and, even more so, changing his mindset. Essentially, velocity first, then develop command as you mature . . . or command first, then develop velocity at a later point. He's had the former in mind (and both his velocity and command have been getting better as he moved up from 12 to 13 to 14) and his pitching coach is taking the latter approach.

Wonder how much better Bob Gibson might have been if they just corrected all the flaws and cleaned up his mechanics.

 

It always bothers me when the natural ability is disregarded in the interest of improving mechanics. Nobody ever taught Bob Feller how to throw a baseball. He spent hours out behind the barn and threw the ball the way his body told him he could best throw it.

 

 

 

". By way of example, a pitcher throwing 84 with absolute pinpoint command (say, averaging 1 or 2 walks per 9 innings) is likely worth more to his high school team that a pitcher throwing 89 with decent but not great command (say, averaging 4 walks per 9 innings). OTOH, the latter kid is often going to be more attractive to colleges."

 

I wonder if this is true.  I have watched many college teams in Northern CA and elsewhere and bases on balls get guys pulled, not more time on the mound. The worst I ever saw was Pat Murphy of ASU at Sunken Diamond. On the Sunday game of 3, he clearly was over the top with free bases given up the previous 2 game. 

The very first Stanford hitter was walked. Murphy pulled his starter.  He then proceeded to pull every pitcher who walked a batter for the next 4 innings, until he had no one left.

Giving up 4-5 bases on balls means a pitcher is also likely going deeper into counts with good HS and college hitters and having many, many more high stress innings.  Giving up 4-5 bases on balls can often mean a good HS team will turn those into 2-3 runs.

Some college coaching staffs use "free" bases as a way of measuring the success of their offense and the negatives for their pitching staff.

Being "attractive" to  colleges and "earning" innings once you get there are very different animals.  Making choices for a HS freshman pitcher based on  your current views on his being attractive to colleges 4-5 years out  seems very problematic.

 

 

 

I'm always right with you on everything PG, but it sounds to me like you are shunning pitching instruction.  

 

I think if this player was 14 and throwing 85 or 86, leave him alone.  The fact is, he's 14, a decent physical size and only throwing 75-76 and his command is not all that great...  I would say there is room for improvement.  Not to mention analysis of mechanics has come a long way from the 1960's.  There are many things that could improve the chances of a healthy arm by improvement of mechanics.

 

I wouldn't do anything to improve Bob Gibson's mechanics...  However, this kid is not Bob Gibson (no disrespect 2019Dad).

 

I think before we say whether the changes the HS coaches are suggesting are good or bad, it would be good to see a little video of this player.

 

2019Dad, sometimes PCs like to slow things down a little to make sure mechanics are good.  It is easier to throw under control, with good mechanics when you are throwing 80% to 85% than it is while throwing 100%.  Once the mechanics are established, go ahead and throw all out.  There is a time and place for everthing.

While I agree, they didn't pitch in an era where the exit speed off the bat was almost triple digits and the hitters have the strength like they have today. 

I don't think landing in a defensive position is a bad thing.  

2019, there is a big difference between "changing mechanics" and "tweaking" mechanics.  Everyone needs a tweaking now and then.  I think most here are saying they don't see much wrong with some falling off.  

 

I don't believe that working on mechanics and doing the things to increase your chances of finishing in a fielding position will be detrimental to velocity.  It might even help improve velocity - as well as command.  When I think about "changing mechanics", I think of a change in arm slot.  I don't think that is a good thing.  

 

I would view what the HS coaches are trying to do as "tweaking" his mechanics.  Take what you think will work and disregard what you think won't.  Sounds like your son has a pitching coach.  Ask him about what the HS coaches are saying.  No reason to not pitch for the HS at all for sure...

 

There's no question your son needs to improve with both his velocity as well as his command.  Nothing wrong with hearing some new ideas on how to do that.

 

JMO.

       
       
Actually exit velocities were well over 100 even then.  While they were not measured we know this from the monsterous distance achieved by guys like mantle, howard and killebrew to name a few.  There are more today however I grant you that.  Not a big fan of the fielding position thing.

       
       
Not so fast 2019!  I have extremely strong feelings on this and many many pitching experts do as well.  Always, always velocity first.  And as I believe somebody mentioned (maybe you) the control seems to improve at the same time.  Bottom line good mechanics are needed for velocity and control.  You don't need to sacrifIce one for the other.  If you slow down when will you speed up again?  Now you have to adjust your mechanics particularly your release point to accommodate a more aggressive appr I ach to velocity.  Bad idea.  Tell him to let it rip!

P.S. while we would all like our 14yo to throw harder than 74 lets not be so fast to call that slow.  It may not have you on track for cooperstown but its not far off the pace for a kid who with a little improvement can make a run at a college career.  If my son falls short of his goals next year and is throwing 74 I certainly will not tell him its time to hang it up.  Nor will I tell him he needs to completely change what he is doing.  And as the dad of a big kid I have to remind you that they are still kids.  That size will benefit them more when they get their big boy muscles and coordination.

I hope it wasn't assumed that I was saying mid-70's is slow. For a high school freshman it's average-to-slightly-above-average. However, it certainly isn't the type of velocity that should make a coach think he needs to slow down to 69 or 70 to effectuate better control. I would also say that the OP cites an approximate 60% strike rate and stats that didn't indicate an abnormal number of walks.

I dont know how your kid throws or the coach, so take this with a grain of salt. Command and velocity is not a one or the other choice. They can be developed at the same time. Long toss can certainly develope velocity by improving arm speed/strength, but it also gives player feedback for where his ball is going and helps improve proprioception. The idea that it is one or the other frustrates me. 

       
       


I have a 2019 also....going through the same thing you are. I call it Old School vs. New School. Which way is better....I do not know. What I do know is my son was a Command and Control guy who landed in the fielding position until I took him to the ARMory in Brandon, Florida (Florida's version of the Texas Baseball Ranch).

They took him off the balance point and landing in the fielding position....after 4  months he went from 72-73 mph to 76-81 mph and has not thrown a four seam fast ball yet. Plus, he Now can reach his 80 pitch limit without feeling sore the next day.

My son is 5' 10" 185 LHP  Freshman. This change in pitching style has opened doors of opportunity that were just not available before.

Bottom line is both styles of Pitching worked for my son, but he wants to play baseball at a high level D1 eventually and from what I have read and heard there is a minimum velocity they are looking for.

Best of luck to you and your son!

       
       
But also remember a 2019 hasn't pitched his freshman season yet.  74 is from 14u ball.  Might be closer to 80 his freshman year.  Now we are directionally correct.

Thanks! He is going to have a hard time not letting it rip! He's a "Yes, Coach" kind of kid, but he's been letting it rip his whole life, so this is a struggle.

Thank you! Funny you should mention it, but 2019Son had never had a pitching coach, but this summer he went 7 or 8 times to a Texas Baseball Ranch (TBR) disciple here in CA. They did slow motion video analysis of his mechanics, made some minor tweaks to his takeaway, but did not really change his follow-through. Once school started, his HS pitching coach put the kibosh on the TBR stuff. Said it was something he could do at a later date, once his command was where the coach wanted it. As I said, the view is command first, then velocity.

Yes, thanks, like I said in the original post, he has decent velocity, not great. And those numbers (75-76 at the USA Baseball tournament, touching 77.4 at the pitching facility) are from July, right after 8th grade finished.

 

One more thing about velocity. Just an observation, I guess. We know three 2019's who have touched 85 over the summer (note: I'm sure there are a host of others, nationwide, these are just three that 2019Son happens to know). These velocities are on PG profiles or other independent source. So call it 7-8 mph more than 2019Son, which is a significant difference. In addition, two of 2019Son's HS classmates have touched 81 and 82 (note: again, not reported by their Dads, but independent radar readings). All 5 of these kids are heavier -- not necessarily taller -- than 2019Son, ranging from 20 lbs heavier to about 45 lbs. heavier. I know that 5 kids is a small sample size, but there does seem to be a significant correlation between body weight and velocity, and, assuming 2019Son puts on 40 - 60 lbs in high school (by comparison, I put on 50 lbs my first three years of high school), I do think there will be more velocity to come, though how much is anybody's guess.

 

Note: I'm sure their are some little Billy Wagners or junior Tim Lincecum's out there in the class of 2019, throwing 85 when they weight 120. My observation is just that there is a correlation. Maybe everybody already knows that, but it is something I really started to notice recently.

Are you sure that the coach doesn't mean let's work on mechanics and the velocity will improve? 

Velocity can't be taught, mechanics and pitching properly can.  Your son is 13,14?

I do agree that mechanics should be priortized, however I strongly disagree that velocity cannot be taught. It comes through mechanics some times, it can come through arm strengthening, working out, throwing long toss, throwing over/under load baseballs. Maybe theres a limit for everyone, but I certainly think that people can develope velocity.

While I agree you can develop it,  I believe that the velocity people want to see their player throwing, just isn't gonna happen for most. Its got to be there in the first place. 

 

That's where the projection becomes the reality.

 

 

Brother, I just have to weigh in here -- in part because I got active on this site when my son was about your son’s age. Mine’s a senior now, heading to your Pac 12 area after graduation. He's a hitter, not a pitcher – but I’ve learned a lot along the way – most of it here – and I sense, based on your post and responses, some beliefs that I think are common for dads who are where you are – but that need to evolve quickly.

 

So with the best of intentions, here ya go:

 

1. Setting all else aside, your son is a 14-year-old 5’11, 142-lb. freshman pitcher who throws mid-70’s.That’s OK, but not exceptional by a long shot. Forget AVERAGES on PG – whether we’re talking 60 speed or pitching velocity. Better than average is not the measure that matters.
2. You say with conviction that your son projects to be a much bigger boy, and you expect (though you admit to speculation) that he’ll have significantly higher velocity. I’d assume (and hope) this analysis comes from others. It had better. Based on my experience here in Texas watching elite youth pitchers over the years, I’m inclined to be skeptical (unless you’re a big man, and it’s obviously in the genes.)
3. Underneath your specific question (‘Which comes first, velocity or command, and what do I do with a HS coach who believes the opposite of what we’ve put first) seems to be a much bigger question: Does my son have what it takes? I conclude this in large part because you felt compelled to offer so much (superfluous) info in your OP (been there -- seriously).

 

All that said, here's another dad's two cents: If you and I were having a beer and you shared this story, I’d say this:

 

First: Get him to a PG showcase now. Pay the money, get the grade and read the scouting report. Because you BOTH need validation. Many parents wait, and they should. You shouldn’t. That’s what I did with JP over the summer heading into HS, and it was, in hindsight, a very good decision.

 

Second: When you get the analysis – whether you and your son are thrilled or disappointed – accept it as THE informed view, and adjust accordingly. 

 

You'll learn whether his mechanics are  sound or they're not. You'll learn whether his velocity  projects or  does not. And you'll learn a lot more.

 

Get the experts' view.

 

Good luck. Don’t leave. I enjoyed this post.

First, I think you may be misinterpreting the HS coach's instruction.  The words you used where "control his momentum."  That is a lot different than "don't throw hard" or sacrifice velocity for command.  Velocity and command are not either or.  You need both.  So work on both. 

 

Pitching velocity is a function of several things all working in unison.  Genetics plays a part.  But so do proper mechanics, strength, conditioning, and size.  As your boy refines his mechanics (and control), hits the weights, and grows he will add more velocity.  The only question is how much -- You'll need to ask the Pope.   

What I mean, is average velocity and ordinary control.  Unless you're high 80's plus, you cant just throw it by high school hitters.  He needs to be able to throw to spots and his mistakes cannot be the mistake down the middle.  If the pitch is supposed to be down and away, and he misses down the middle -- the ball will be picked up by NASA.  He needs to work the hitter away, in, up and down and has to throw a curve ball for a strike.  And he needs to be efficient doing it.  In other words, he needs to be a pitcher and not just a thrower.  Generally, there are no inning limits in HS, so the expectation is that a starting pitcher will go at least 5+ innings.  If your pitch counts are too high to get there, coach is not happy. 

 

Anyways, I'll reiterate.  Your kid is a freshman who hasn't played an inning of HS ball.  Yet you're worried about college prospects.  Sounds like you have a group of HS coaches who know what they are doing.  I'd let them do it and monitor the results. 

Actually all that a pitcher has to do is throw strikes. 

I understand your perspective. To be clear, my concern is his long-term development -- academically, morally, athletically, etc. That's my job as his father. You may be right that the high school coaches know what they are doing -- perhaps working on command first, and worrying about velocity at a later date (and, no, there is no misunderstanding -- that is specifically what the head coach said to me about their approach), is the best way to develop pitchers for the long run. I'm not convinced. I do know that there are many, many baseball people who feel otherwise.

 

Also, it would be perfectly OK with me if he didn't pitch at all (as I indicated in one of the options in the original post). He has never been primarily a pitcher -- always a baseball player who pitched sometimes (hence, the zero pitching lessons until this past summer). He is not pitching for his travel team, and they seem fine with that. His HS coaches want him to pitch. And he likes pitching. So we'll see how it goes.

 

Finally, I didn't take your initial reply as harsh -- or any of the other replies on this thread. I've read enough threads on here that I knew, before I hit the "post" button, that the majority of replies would fall into the category of "coaches are right/player is wrong/dad's probably delusional/player's probably not very good, etc." And that's fine. In fact, most of the time, that's probably the right answer! Heck, it might be the right answer this time. I tried to head off some of that by including lots and lots of info in the OP -- but as JP24 noted, the information was largely superfluous.

 

So, again, thanks to all who responded. I'm not convinced that command before velocity is the way to go -- I fall into the "let it rip" category, to use a term used above, for both pitching and hitting. But we'll see how this goes . . .

Just to illustrate that there is nothing new under the sun, or in the HSBBW, a somewhat similar issue (framed much better and described much more succinctly) -- "How does the kid listen to the HS coach, do the drill, and then "forget" what he just did? He doesn't want to tell the HS coach he doesn't like the drill." -- was discussed here: see http://community.hsbaseballweb...ach-or-hitting-coach

 

 

2019Dad,

 

I'm not sure this means much, but I have learned a lot.  Not very smart, but pretty damn old.  One thing that I have learned is most things change in baseball and all sports for that matter.

 

Even those with the most experience and expertise end up changing how they think over time.  So I tend to look at things like whatever seems to be the right way now is likely to change at some point.  Because of that it is hard for me to tell someone they are right or wrong about certain things.  We could all have different opinions and I could be positive that my opinion is a fact, only to change my mind at some point.

 

Guess what I'm saying is you might be right and you might be wrong.  Then again, everyone might be right because there is always more than one way to be successful.

 

If there were a message board back in the old days and the topic was high jumping.  I wonder what posters would say if someone claimed jumping over the bar backwards was a good approach?

 

One of the things I like the best about this site is reading all the "opinions" and sometimes adding my own.  Whether we realize it or not, we all learn things from this process. Lots of experience here, and though some are similar not any of those experiences are the same. So your opinions are no more or no less important than everyone else.  Other than a few that only want to cause trouble, people here want to help.  

 

Actually I'm sure you already know everything I just said.  Best of luck to your son.

 

There are two 2019s here in Florida that my son plays with. One of them touched 89 @ PG and the other touched 87 @ PG. The 89 guy committed to Miami before he started high school. The other guy decided not to commit early (has a bright future in football as well). Both of these guys are not known for their control and command.

So what you are saying is that your kid really isn't a pitcher, has had little formal training, and is being taught to object to his future HS coach who has a good track record before he's played an inning of HS ball.  Good luck with that.   

That's why the coach told him not to worry about the velocity, he has to learn to pitch first.

They see something in him what you don't, and this just maybe the only way he may ever get to a college field.  Unless your son hits them over the wall, he may not have a shot as a position guy later on. They obviously know what they are doing.  Your posts are confusing, is he with his travel team now or with HS team?

As I said, and as you are pointing out by posting that link,  if you have too many telling your son what to do it becomes confusing. Pick your poison. In this situation, with your son not even throwing one HS inning or up at bat, I would sit back and relax.

 

 

 

Yup, that's what I'm talking' about.  You can't teach that.  You can't get that from weighted balls, long toss, or some magical gadget to increase your velocity.

 

And with that velo at that age, you don't need control and command.

       
       
If what you mean is you can't get that BY THAT AGE through hard work I agree 100%.  As you say those are the naturals.  I knew guys like that.  Just came easy for them.  Maybe some of those guys level off and some end up throwing 96 as a senior in high school and make a boatload of money.  But honestly as I tell my son those guys are not really your competition.  My son's goal is to play college ball.  Those guys will go in the draft or to the upper echelon of D1.  There are plenty spots left for the guys who want to work hard to get to 88 or 90.  And it may take them longer but they can get there.  Doesn't matter if its at 14 or at 17 you will find a home at some college program regardless.

". . . is being taught to object to his future HS coach . . ." No, not true. Just flat out not true. 

According to your posts, sounds like your son has the potential (projection) to reach the velocity that D1 coaches are looking for, possibly one day or during his college years. Maybe even play professional after college?

 

Do people really think hitting 88-90 is easy to reach?  Keep in mind that puberty plays a big part in this.  Son actually didn't hit the higher numbers until he was a professional and he was hitting 90-91 as a senior in HS. He also was 6'3" with the arm span of an eagle and legs like an ostrich.  No brainer. But he only gained a few mph while in college as he was busy learning how to pitch rather than throw FB.  Near the end Kevin OSullivan tweaked his mechanics so he was hitting maybe 94-95 on his FB at 22-23.  He didn't hit 99 until he was closer to 30.  His body type was so project able it made him some bucks. That higher velo probably hurt somewhere to stop him from making a 25 man roster. Its very hard to throw that hard and control the ball and stay healthy.  Trust me. It takes a long time to get to that place.

 

Now I know that you get it. But many don't.  I just find it interesting that parents actually believe that if they are hitting mid 70s at 13,14 they might will hit the magic number in 3 years.  Then they get all bent out of shape when big state U shows them no love and cant figure it out.  Its not because they lack the velocity, maybe because they were soooo busy working on velocity, they don't know how to get people out. Or maybe now those older kids can hit their curve ball because they never worked on their FB. Probably, they were never meant to throw that hard in the first place, at that particular time in their career.  Or for very good reason, a coach felt that they just would not work into their program. You see what parents REALLY want is their son to go to the best to learn from the best so that they may get a bigger opportunity later on. Listen I get that, that was why we sent son to work with a great pitching coach and a HC that had a great reputation of having players drafted. I will be the first to admit that. However, if you polled the folks here you will find that only a handful  of their players attended top 50 programs and a fewer top 25 in a top 5 conference.  And most are pitchers, so if your HS coach wants to make you a pitcher, embrace that opportunity.

 

I also know that most people here have absolutely  no idea what its like to attend and play at Big State U. They get insulted when their HS coach makes them run! Or they don't get to bat 3rd or the freshman plays over their sophomore.  If people think that's tough, all I have to say is LOL. Be careful what you wish for as you all have not a clue.

If a player knows how to get on base, produce hits, throw strikes with 3 very good offerings (including the 4 seamer), has decents grades, he will play ball in college. No, it most likely will not be at big state U. But that is more than OK because more than likely he won't play past college either.  Accept where your player falls in his graduation year, get out there to see what's out there. Attending a national event is an eye opener.  Don't bite off more than you can chew until you have the skills to compete with the best.

 

I am sorry but worrying about this stuff before your son has played one HS game is a lesson in futility. Player who is relatively new to pitching, whose parent must be paying for son to attend a private HS so he could be in their program because they turn out D1 players is complaining about the coaches telling his son not to worry about the velo but embrace learning how to pitch and is having a hard time with that and wants our opinions?  Don't get that. Each and everyone of our players are biologically and physically different.  Most pitchers won't ever get over 85 by their senior year in HS. Some throwing hard wont even get to a top 50. Do you all have any idea why?

 

This is not to offend anyone.  Parents and players need to be realistic about the players ability. JP brings up a good point, attend a PG showcase, IMO not before HS, and get an evaluation because that will help YOU and your player to understand where you probably will fall as your career progresses.  And folks you need to chill out a bit, get over panic mode, enjoy the middle school years, the HS years because its over quickly and then you realized all you did was question others and worry!  And remember your sons future baseball program will not be determined by how hard you throw the ball, its so much more than that!

 

 

 

Originally Posted by 2019Dad:

Thanks. It's not so much the travel team -- he's not pitching for them so that part has no conflict.

 

Glad to hear he’s not pitching for the TT, but if he isn’t pitching for them I have a question. You didn’t say much about his hitting skills, but if he made such a high profile TT on his hitting alone, it sounds as though his hitting skills are at a higher level than his pitching skills. Is that right?

 

I don't know, maybe this kind of thing happens all the time.

 

It does, and a lot more often than people would believe.

"I understand your perspective. To be clear, my concern is his long-term development -- academically, morally, athletically, etc. That's my job as his father. You may be right that the high school coaches know what they are doing -- perhaps working on command first, and worrying about velocity at a later date (and, no, there is no misunderstanding -- that is specifically what the head coach said to me about their approach), is the best way to develop pitchers for the long run. I'm not convinced. I do know that there are many, many baseball people who feel otherwise."

 

Sometimes, as threads unfold, more information gets included to help understand the bigger picture. At the outset, I wondered how what sounds like high quality HS coaches who have been successful would be creating "conflict" by their suggestions.

This paragraph, 2019, seems to yield some hints.

As I understand the quoted language, either you have significant baseball skills and background to be able to question the HS guidance or the questioning comes from and through "many, many baseball people who feel otherwise."

I am sure everyone is well meaning.  If this is a "conflict" as  a HS freshman pitcher before he throws a single pitch, I wonder how you will address things if the HS coaches, or anyone, starts suggesting changes and "adjustments" in your son's swing, AB approach, or fielding mechanics because they think it will make him better against better competition, and your son struggles with the changes.

Just my perspective but "many, many baseball people who feel otherwise" are not the ones you chose to coach your son in HS. Coupled with that is the fact you appear to have chosen very good HS coaches who have a proven track record of success and who carefully provided the "whys" and roadmap.

Unfortunately, I think it is true.  It's not intentional, but that is what is happening the minute you didn't say "give what the HS coach is telling you a try and see how it goes."  Instead, you're going so far as suggesting, among other things, to quit pitching because you don't agree with the HS coach's mechanics and focus. 

 

 

Great HS program where "nearly every senior goes on to play in college." And freshman Dad wants to question the coaches right off the bat.

Why the hell does anyone want to coach anymore?

Tell you what, Pops, home school the kid and develop him into a first rounder yourself.

2019Dad,

 

To state the obvious you are unsure about whether to trust the coach's approach or not. In my view, that is reasonable. It really doesn't matter that the player has never thrown a high school pitch or that the coaches have a million college playing alumni. All that matters is the players mechanics and their implications, and the level of respect shown the coaches. Respect does not preclude wanting to understand the benefits or detriments of various approaches. But you cannot find the answer on this or any other forum.

 

You should be able to respectfully approach the coach and discuss how the velocity/command requirements are met through their program. The goal should be > 65% strikes and a velocity very close to or above 90mph. It should also include at least one solid off speed pitch with the same level of command or better. This goal will likely require a lot of strength training as well. You should get the coaches input on these things also. Perhaps a holistic discussion would allow you to gain understanding of their mechanics training in a less direct manner.

 

It is frequently the case that letting it rip actually short circuits the kinetic chain and reduces velocity. It is also important to make sure that when effort is applied it is in the right direction. This may mean lessening effort until the direction is corrected (through repetition) and then increasing effort again. Your son may be at the beginning of this approach.

 

There are folks with solid pedigrees that will analyse your son's delivery discreetly and confidentially and provide your with an informed opinion of his faults and how they can be corrected. With that information in hand you can then make a better informed decision whether this is the program that you want for your son or not. I would not beat up the coaches with that information. I would use it to decide how I wanted to proceed.

 

The real question is can you or your son have an informative and respectful discourse about training with the coaches or not; and if you cannot, are you going to be satisfied with trusting them to run the show. If the answer to both those questions is no, then you have some decisions to make.

 

Best wishes to you and your son,

 

Ted

 

TPM let me make some things clear if I failed to in the past.  I DO NOT believe in any way shape or form my son is a slam dunk for D1.  I would be lying if I didn't say I think he is nearly a slam dunk to play somewhere if he chooses to do so.  But you are very correct in that its not easy to get to upper 80's.   I am fairly confident he will get to low to mid 80's just through maturation and some basic mechanical improvements.  As for those mph say between 84 and 90...  those are the really hard ones.  In his favor he is dedicated to his dream.  Does his cressey style workouts religiously and he will have the size.  His hurdles will be he lacks the normal flexibility you would expect to See in a high level pitcher.  He also does not have his coordination yet due to a very rapid growth rate.  This more than anything is the key in my mind.  It makes it really hard for him to develop smooth repeatable mechanics almost turning his size into a detriment rather than a benefit.  So here is the prognosis: when he stops growing we will start getting an idea of where he is heading.  If he becomes coordinated enough to smooth out his mechanics then I might be willing to bet more on him than against him.  The lack of flexibility at that point might be the difference between throwing 95 and throwing 89.  But it won't stop him from pitching at a decent level in college.  We are also mindful of this and working with his trainer to increase his flexibility to whatever degree is possible.  If the coordination never comes - as it never does for some - then his D1 dream is over plain and simple.  I like his chances though as I also grew fast and was a much more fluid 'athlete' (and I use that term very loosely) when I was older.  Time will tell, but as I just said on another thread we don't pay the money and put in the time we do for a scholarship.  While that is his ultimate goal we see value in just playing on a really good team and the incredible fun he has playing this brand of ball.  And although I am the ultimate live and let live guy I will say I don't think anyone should pit their kid in this type of ball just for a scholarship.   If the experience in and of itself is not worth it then you probably shouldn't do it.  Which I think is kinda what you are saying.

My post was not directed negatively to you. If anyone here with a young pitcher gets it, its you.

Now here is a funny story. When son reached about 11-12 he had a tremendous growth spurt. As fluid as he was at 9/10 he was a mess. He still could hit but he looked like he was swimming as he ran base to base.  Upon entering HS we were advised to have him stop other sports. By freshman season he was back on track and much more flexible.

 

So don't worry, my son eventually grew into his paws, so there is hope.  . Just go with the flow and it will all be good.

Lots of great responses to this post. Apparently the HS coaches see potential for your son as a pitcher however they don't agree with his mechanics. Herky jerky, let it rip is not what they want to see on the mound. You've stated your son has had no formal pitching lessons yet you disagree with the first pitching coach who has attempted to improve his mechanics, his HS pitching coach. He's young, give the coaches a chance to work with him and encourage your son to be receptive to any changes they're asking him to make. Way too early to be giving yourself an ulcer. Occasionally, a coach will be determined to take a cookie cutter approach to all his pitchers. Those that can adapt see the mound and those that don't need to look at other avenues. With no other formal instruction, it's way too early in the process to make an informed decision in that respect. You might be pleasantly surprised in the next few months with both his increase in velocity and better control by 'settling down' on the mound. Reread Ted22's response above. Lot's of good advice in that post alone.  2 cts

"He also does not have his coordination yet due to a very rapid growth rate." 

 

I think you NAILED A LOT here! Changing bodies has to be a major factor all the way up to 17-18.

 

Like many of you, I'm sure ... I have marks on the garage wall where we loved to measure JP's growth. Sometimes it was slow; other times it was almost overnight. Whether pitching or hitting, think about how much changes when a boy shoots up, say, three inches over a couple of months! His arms are longer .. his legs, torso or both are different ... even his strike zone has changed when he's hitting.

 

And don't even get me started on the hormones, and how their view of themselves and others changes! Whew!

Yes,thank you. Just getting caught up -- had 4 baseball games, 2 soccer games, and 1 swim meet this weekend amongst my kids, so I was tied up. And, yes, I think Ted22's post was great, also. Lot's of good advice. And many of the other posts had good advice, as well.

 

One thing that got lost, somehow, is that 2019Son has been working with the HS varsity pitching coach for 13 months. In the very first bullet point in the OP I said "he played for the HS coaches on a travel team in 8th grade." I guess I didn't communicate it clearly enough, but the HS varsity pitching coach was also the pitching coach on his 8th grade travel team. Same guy. 2019Son never had private pitching lessons, or personal pitching lessons, until this summer, but as part of his regular team practices he threw a weekly bullpen with the pitching coach all through 8th grade, and the pitching coach was at his games, and calling pitches at them, etc. Maybe to some of the folks here, asking questions after 13 months gets viewed as wanting to "question the coaches right off the bat" . . . but I don't see it that way. 

 

In any event, I'm a big believer that everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I don't, however, think that people are entitled to their own facts. It's been a little strange on this particular thread. Just for one example, I said "he has never been primarily a pitcher -- always a baseball player who pitched sometimes," and somehow that gets spit back at me that he's not an experienced pitcher. Um, no, that's not factually correct. I've thought about it a bit, and I'm guessing that some of it may be due to regional, geographical differences. I mean, although 2019Son really didn't get started in travel ball until age 12 (he had played a grand total of two tournaments in his life before his 12U year, both in the summer before 12U started), because he was playing soccer, flag football, basketball, etc., he played a lot of baseball at 12, 13, and 14. A lot. For instance, between little league and travel ball, he played 125 games in his 12U year, and between travel ball and his junior high school team, about 75 in each of 13U and 14U. Across those 375 games, he pitched plenty, but he was not primarily a pitcher. At least around here, "not primarily a pitcher" ≠ not an experienced pitcher, or "not really a pitcher." It may well be different in other places.

 

I think Ted22 nailed it here, particularly the last sentence, when he said: "To state the obvious you are unsure about whether to trust the coach's approach or not. In my view, that is reasonable. It really doesn't matter that the player has never thrown a high school pitch or that the coaches have a million college playing alumni. All that matters is the players mechanics and their implications, and the level of respect shown the coaches. Respect does not preclude wanting to understand the benefits or detriments of various approaches. But you cannot find the answer on this or any other forum."

 

I do think there is a reasonable debate to be had about what's better: (1) velocity first, then command; or (2) command first, then velocity. And I did think the side topic on this thread about elite velocity (e.g., 2019s hitting 89 and 87) kind of made my point about the importance of velocity. And I recently observed all of the lower velocity kids get cut at travel team tryouts. But, again, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Indeed, it may be easier to have those debates without facts related to a specific kid.

2019Dad, I did not pick up that the HS Varsity coach had been working with your son over the last year or so.  Is it just now coming up that he wants to work with him on not falling off?  If so, I'm wondering why that wasn't brought up earlier?  If he has been trying to get him to change some things prior to this, why is it just becoming an issue now?

 

I do not think working on velocity vs command need to be mutually exclusive.  I also do not think that working on mechanics will lead to a decrease in velocity - necessarily.  It is not a given that just "letting it rip" will bring about a miraculous increase in velocity.  Very often, changes in mechanics CAN bring about an increase in velocity.  A change in mechanics can also bring about an increase in command.

 

Your son's mechanics may be perfect.  They could also be very flawed.  I have no idea.  But without having had any "formal" or "individual" pitching instruction, I can't see where trying some things will hurt.  

 

Like I said in the beginning, I'm interested to know what the coach has or hasn't been saying over the last year, prior to this fall.  There must be some reason this is coming up now.  Or why it is just now becoming a problem for you at this point...

It's come up before, certainly, though in a minor way and the pitching coach is a man of few words. And 2019Son does fall off! Maybe too much -- or, more accurately, on some occasions he falls off too much, other times it's not too bad. Inconsistent, I suppose. What came up recently was the trash can drill, which caused 2019Son to over-correct by striding way towards third base, which caused him to throw across his body. Oh, and if you touch the trash can, you have to run four laps around the field (which 2019Son tries to sprint as best he can, but that's a story for another day). Hence, the over-correction to avoid the laps.

 

Plus, there was the recent conversation with the varsity head coach in which he discussed the command first philosophy (which was definitely the first time I heard that), and it got me wondering: is that the right approach? Which led me to post here.

 

I will note this: the pitching coach who he worked (briefly) with over the summer focused on something different: the takeaway. In short, if your takeaway is too much towards first base (think Madison Bumgarner's takeaway if he were a righty), instead of back towards second base, that may cause problems -- injury risk, plus you may have a tendency to over-rotate, which can cause falling off (Bumgarner avoids falling off by stepping towards first base and then throwing across his body, but he's big and strong enough to pull it off). To me that's more sensible than putting a trash can down so that the kid steps towards the third base line and then throws across his body -- especially if the kid is not going to be 6'5" 240 lbs like Bumgarner -- but I'm no expert.

Well, stepping off to the 3rd base side is certainly not the correct fix for falling off.  There are other things that can be done to correct falling off too much from time to time.  You always want to step towards the target.  Over-rotating can cause some arm drag.  What will you will often see is pitches either missing up and in to a righty - caused by the arm falling behind the body  or missing down and away to a righty - caused by whipping the arm thru trying to catch up to the body.  All of this is telling you that things are out of synch.  Being out of synch leads to a decrease in both velocity and command.

 

Seem to me like over-rotating/opening the front shoulder too early is what your son needs to work on.  I'm guessing your son has a 3/4 arm slot.  You will often see this problem with guys who throw 3/4.  It would be interesting to see what your son's glove side does in his delivery.  That is often an indication of what is going on.  Having a solid front side and focusing on keeping the front shoulder closed as long as possible will help with this.  Once again, I'm not saying that falling off is a terrible thing.  But when you "fall off too much" as you have stated, is an indicator that something else is going on.  The garbage can thing can be helpful - as long as you are making the right changes to correct the issue.  Stepping more to 3rd base is not the right change.  Working on keeping the front shoulder closed and watching the glove side is the right thing.  

 

Like I mentioned in my previous post, watch the Gibson and Martinez clips again.  Watch their glove side.  Gibson keeps his glove close to his body until after he releases the ball, then it flies open and wild.  Pedro keeps his glove close to his body all the way thru, including as he's falling off.  They are not over-rotating.  If your son's glove side is wild and inconsistent, it will lead to inconsistent command and a lack of velocity.  If his glove side is flying away from his body, he is yanking his shoulder open and he is over-rotating.  I think this is not only robbing velocity and accuracy, but is not good for the shoulder or elbow.  Arm drag will lead to health problems as he gets older and starts throwing harder.

 

If I'm off base, fine.  I haven't seen your son pitch.  I'm speculating based on what you have shared and what I have seen over the years.  Take it or leave it.  It's up to you - unless you want to post a video of your son pitching.  Then we can see whether any changes need to be made or not.

I think I would worry more about the games your son has played in 3years!

Instead of asking us, and getting upset with our responses and never seen your son pitch or hit, you need to readdress this with the coach.

 

Not sure why you are so upset with your son not making a travel team, NEXT spring.  Let him get through his first year in HS.

 

JMO

I'm not upset with my son not making a travel team, NEXT spring. Mostly because there is no travel team that he didn't make. I apologize if I have given the impression that there is any issue with making a travel team, or not making a travel team. There is not.

You are right about the 3/4 arm slot. And I think your (informed) speculation is probably correct as well. I'll focus on the glove side.

 

I have a grainy video on a phone that i am trying to get transferred so that I can share it, Give me a few minutes.

I was going by what you said about travel teams dropping kids with lower velo. And with the concerns you have about command first, velo second according to your understanding what the coach said...well you get what I am saying?

 

Yes, I understand. And I understand how I confused things for you -- but 2019Son was not one of the kids cut from that travel team. Sorry for the confusion.

Whew, think I'll mix a toddy and move on. Good luck 2019Dad. You'll get it figured out.

Well, apparently Hudl Technique (formerly known as Ubersense) only allows you to download a video to a computer if you use iOS, and my phone is an Android. So I'm out of luck with the two existing videos I have of him pitching. I'll see if I can get some video next weekend. Thanks.

2019Dad,

 

My son found that cleaning up his take away and having less counter rotation allowed him to be much more consistent. He was still able to reach solid hip/shoulder rotation though it seemed to be quicker. There was less arm drag and he seemed to be behind the ball much better which actually increased his velocity some and made both the curve and the change more consistent. He also noticed a dramatic increase in arm side run. This staighter approach allowed him to really go after it on occasion without over rotating. We used Zach Greinke as a model. I also like the way Grienke keeps the left hip closed til just before foot plant. I am not saying that your son should emulate Greinke. He is just a good example of someone who goes pretty straight from a 3/4 slot with exceptional command.

 

Best regards,

 

Ted

I read this entire thread.... man have I learned a lot ... I wonder how many of these young players really care if they play in college or beyond and how much they are trying to gain the acceptance of dad? 

 

Playing D1 baseball is not easy to do. Many many just do not have the body to be able to develop the skills needed to play at this level.  I wonder why is seems all the younger players parents that come to this board are so hell bent on  D1 baseball.

 

It is very very difficult even with the body and skill set.  As most of you know I have 4 pitchers, and all will play college baseball...I used to be so caught up in it all I am sure I was ruining the time they had in high school... fighting with coaches, going to camps, talking to coaches ... let me tell you , you can add velo to an extent, you can get better control, but will it be enough for D1 and pro ball, probably not..... So where does that leave the player that has done all he could , dad has spent every nickel and then it does not work out , the dream is not achieved..... Does the player then feel like a failure?  Does he resent the fact that he was pressured into all this baseball and lessons, camps, tryouts etc....

 

When 2014 was a soph he was 86...  I thought hey we can work on this and he will get to 90 , he will get D1 offers, he will get drafted.... this kid worked his tail off and for whatever reason he did not get to 90.... Now as a soph in college at a Juco, he does throw 90+  but it took years and years.....

 

Conversely, 2018 has hit 90 a few times.... and the colleges like i drat... but will he be 95 as a sr.... will he get drafted ...I have no freaking idea... maybe , maybe not... maybe he decides he wants to go fishing.... I will say that while I have learned that you can develop velo to a certain extent, I have learned from 2018 that really you either have it or you don't..... so why ruin the best years of a players life, putting so more pressure on them to improve to chase something that most of the time they do not have the god given ability in the first place.

 

Good job dad. You finally get it!!!!

 

 

Oh boy...  thought this was another thread I was done with.  Backdoor I am usually right with most of your posts.  But I do wish we as a group here would stop making assumptions.  Speaking for the younger crowd I don't know anyone who has said they are pushing their son to do something he doesn't want to do.  Don't know anyone who said son is seeking their approval.  Don't know anyone who is imposing their goals on their kid.  Do they exist?  No doubt.  On here?  Probably somewhere.  But like the maniac youth baseball parent I think they are fewer and further between than we may think.  Why do so many want to play D1?  Cause its the highest level!!  Kind of a simple concept.  Most of them probably want to play at a too 25 type.  Only natural.  Most of them probably dream of being a big league ballplayer someday.  Perfectly healthy and normal.  Will they feel like a failure if they don't get there?  I don't know, I can't guess at every kids level of mental toughness and emotional state of mind.  Do we as adults feel like a failure when we don't achieve a goal at work or in our personal lives?  I suppose depends on the person.  Should we stop giving ourselves goals so we don't feel bad when we don't achieve them?  My son has a dream.  I love that he has a dream.  I love more that he has a work ethic to try and achieve his dream.  He may or may not make it.  But let's not act like the odds of playing D1 baseball are the same as winning the lottery or becoming president of the united states. Yes you need some gifts in the first place.  But if you are playing on a travel team (and succeeding) which plays at a high level your pool of competition is so so much smaller.  What are your odds then?  1 in 20?  1 in 10?  I have no idea but its not 1 in a 1000 or 1 in a million I will tell you that.  My son will be 6'4" or 6'5" conservatively.  Does that mean he will pitch D1?  No.  Does it increase his odds dramatically?  Yes.  Will he be happy playing a minor role on a good team?  In his case yes.  He gets into that.  Will he feel like a failure if he plays D2, NAIA, or D3?  I hope not.  I will do my best to not make him feel that way.  But I will continue to support his dream.  I refuse to tell him those guys are just so great you could never be like them.  I am going to tell my son, "you can do it, I believe in you.  Eliminate negativity from your life.  Surround yourself with people who support your dream and can help you achieve it. Don't listen to the nay sayers.  It will be that much sweeter for you because you will look back and know you earned it.  You have just enough athletic ability to do it but not so much that it will come easily.  You will have to outwork others.  You need to ask yourself every day what have I done today to help me reach my goals.  You have to have a burning desire inside you.  It takes an adult commitment out of a kid to do what you want to do, thats why its so hard.  And in the end you have to accept that it may not happen.  Are you sure this is what you want.  I keep asking you this because I want you to know you can walk away anytime and I will love you no less.  We will still have father son time together.  We will knock the rust off the travel trailer and the dust off the fishing equipment and finally get some more fishing and camping time!  But if you are telling.me this is still YOUR dream then I will do everything in my power to help you achieve it."

In fact that conversation is had almost verbatim about a half dozen times a year.

I was going to post that I was sorry for hurting anyone's feelings by posting my opinions on the younger players parents posts.  But then I thought about it and said no I am sticking to what I said.

 

I have no problem with parents supporting their players, that goes without saying.  We are all here to support and help.  But sometimes, maybe not in every case, the rose colored glasses are so thick it does not seem to matter what anyone says. 

 

People come on this board and state how great 2019 or 2020 or 2018 is now, or is GOING TO BE.... my point is you have no idea how tall, what type of quickness, bat speed, velocity , foot speed these children are going to have when they are 19-22 years old.

 

If anyone got the impression that I was saying that a certain player was no good enough then please do not. I do not know or have ever seen any of these players. 

 

But I do know when parents start predicting the future your on a path to no where.  Playing on a good travel team helps but its not the cure. Lessons help but again if you do not have the talent , body and arm.... it is likely not going to happen.  Like it or not we are not hearing from the folks whose players are having a huge amount of success .

When parents come on hear and ask for advice and then do not at least entertain the advice given your wasting everyone's time. 

 

The fact is until you live it you don't know that's why you are asking the people on this board that have gone through it.

 

"Why do so many want to play D1?  Cause its the highest level!!  Kind of a simple concept"   my point exactly, there are so many different levels of good baseball, some D3's would mob a D1, Tampa is a D2  excellent program.... this statement just shows my you have no idea what you are talking about.

 

"But if you are playing on a travel team (and succeeding) which plays at a high level your pool of competition is so so much smaller.  What are your odds then?  1 in 20?  1 in 10?  I have no idea but its not 1 in a 1000 or 1 in a million I will tell you that.  My son will be 6'4" or 6'5" conservatively.  Does that mean he will pitch D1?  No.  Does it increase his odds dramatically?  Yes. "

it does not increase his odds dramatically, it might increase his odds somewhat.....

 

All I am saying is set them up where they can succeed.... playing "travel ball on an elite team " is a long way from being in the rotation at a top 100 D1 program....

Maybe I just see the new folks making assumptions, and making statements like, will be and should be.... and it reminds me of the mistakes I made a long the way

 

I hope they all do well and some will make it to D1 ball, and then they will have two jobs, student and athlete

 

sorry for the typo's it's late

 

Not sure what everyone is referring to when mentioning "elite" teams.

 

I think my description of an "elite" travel team would be far different than most.

 

The truly elite teams usually have a couple or more pitchers that can pitch at any college program.  Some, once in awhile will have nothing but DI prospects.  So if someone is pitching on one of those true "elite" teams, they are probably throwing upper 80s to 90+. The best ones get drafted early and sign, for the most part.  

 

Anyway, I never cared about the odds, but if I did here is how I would look at it.  You have to be extremely good to pitch on those teams I am referring to.  If you're good enough to pitch on one of those top teams, the odds are very good that DI colleges will be making offers.  However, for most pitchers the odds of being on one of those truly "elite" travel teams is a real long shot.

 

It's all about what people consider "elite".   Elite pitchers, whether they're on an elite team or not have very good odds of getting drafted or playing DI. Then again what are the odds of being one of those?

2019 Dad,

 

You know from being at TBR velocity, command and control can be taught. You also know that it takes time to reestablish command and control once you move away from a balance point, command and control style of pitching. If that was not true there would be no Fulmer, Kershaw, Gibson, Sale, etc. 

 

Here are some things that keep me awake at night just thinking they still exist that might help you in your time of reflection:

 

"Instructors" teaching without video analysis...

 

Parents thinking just because a coach played pro ball or high school ball they are naturally going to be a the best instructor for their son...

 

Training the wrong energy system for pitchers....

 

Not training a pitcher to be explosive....

 

Coaches who do not care to improve their knowledge base....remember when "the world use to believe a human could not run a 4 minute mile"

 

Coaches taking credit for a player's success without acknowledging the thousands of dollars in lessons, countless hours of practice away from the coach, numerous PG events they attended and the player's unwavering passion to be the best he could be.

 

These are MY thoughts and are not intended to offend anyone....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Backdoor,  at this point I will speak only for myself.  I defy you to spend countless hours looking at my posts and find anywhere that I called my son 'great' or predicted he will play D1.  As for your statement that I have no idea what I am talking about because I state the obvious that D1 is the highest level...  not even sure what to say about something that should be so obvious.  Because a small amount of lower level teams can beat a small amount of higher level teams does not change the fact that D1 is the highest level of college baseball.  I can't even believe someone would be called on to defend such a statement.   As for 'predictions'  predictions are what they are...  predictions.   Are we not allowed to make those?  As we all know predictions may prove to be accurate or inaccurate.  You may guess low you may guess high.  So what?  As you have doubled down so will I.  My son is currently 6'2 1/2" in bare feet.  Just turned 14 in september.  I am 6'4".  He is ahead of where I was at his age.  His body is very reminiscent of mine at that age.  I remain pretty comfortable with 6'4" to 6'5".  Not.sure if I have ever made an exit velocity prediction cause it really doesn't matter as him being a college positional player is extremely unlikely.  But since he has an 82mph exit velocity with wood as of this summer I would say at least 90 is a safe prediction.  As for pitching velocity, this one is a little less clear.  Depends on a lot of things as I stated earlier.   But I will stick with my 'prediction' that he will reach low to mid 80's just through maturation and strength alone.  These last key mph will take a lot of hard work mechanically.  Now it is all in print.  I am going nowhere and will be here five years from now.  So save those and we will see won't we?

You talk about making assumptions but isn't that exactly what you are doing?  You assume all of us don't know what we are.talking about because we 'haven't lived through it'.  You 'seem' to assume we are.all some sort of crazies pushing our kids and telling the world how great they are.  I admit this is a pet peeve of mine.  People don't have to directly live through something to understand it.  If that were the case there would be no open heart surgeons who haven't had a heart attack!  I coached many years before having kids.  I have seen kids go from youth through high school.  A couple did shock us and simply stopped developing.  Certainly would never name names but one we thought was going to be the next great pitcher in a long line of great pitchers at that particular school.  Never progressed from freshman year on.  I could name many many more who made that natural progression and wound up in college or being drafted.  The fact is predictions normally wind up pretty close.

As for asking for advice again I can only speak for myself but I did not come on here looking for advice.  I reserve the right to do so some day but haven't as yet.  I have asked questions on here and gotten good answers.  But never posted video of my son or asked anyone where they think he will land.  Since you have doubled down with your frankness I will too.  I really don't care what others think about my son's potential or lack thereof.   That is a matter better kept to family and those than can help him succeed.  I certainly discuss these things with his strength and fitness trainer.  He has no pitching coach or hitting instructor so no conversations there.  By the way I am glad you didn't apologize.  My skin is a lot thicker than that. 

As for the height thing, it DOES increase chances dramatically.  In fact.this is the conversation which brought me on to this site.  Don't want to rehash that but I will stick to my guns on that.  Every law of physics and every statistic in the world supports my viewpoint and there is zero to say otherwise.

Now for the travel team stuff.  Notice I was very careful to avoid using the term 'elite'.  Our organization does get just about everyone placed in a college somewhere.  There are multiple D1's every year.  And yes we have those that go to the big time schools.  This coming year we may even see a couple drafted.  The organization is still only 3 years old so not a long track record yet but a very impressive one.  We have the early commit to big time U. Guys as well.  THAT WON'T BE MY SON.  I hope I made that clear.  And that is yet another prediction I am comfortable with.  I will remain comfortable with my prediction that he will be able to play somewhere if he so desires.  I remain hopeful - HOPEFUL not confident - that things will go right for him and he can play at a D1 or otherwise high level school.  By being on this team he will see what is out there and get an accurate picture of what he is up against.

Finally since you (and probably others but lets keep this to you and I) make judgemental statements about the 'younger group', let me just say this.  Sometimes it seems to me like you are trying to defend your turf.  Like if someone else has a dream to get where your son has already been that they are diminishing his accomplishments.  I don't see it that way at all.  In fact I see it as motivation.  'Hey look junior he did it you can do it too!'  Somebody to look up to and emulate.  There were big time players before and there will be more after.  Its got to be somebody.

Hey 2020Dad - While I didn't know he was addressing you (was he?) I found myself agreeing with bacdorslider's post.  But I also found myself seeing your point-of-view in your recent post as well!!  Does that make any sense?

 

I guess I cannot speak for all of the others, but one comment you made that just isn't true for me (at all), but perhaps may 'feel' this way to you and others...

Finally since you (and probably others but lets keep this to you and I) make judgemental statements about the 'younger group', let me just say this. Sometimes it seems to me like you are trying to defend your turf.

You see, I/we made LOTS of mistakes.  I don't think the motivation is about 'judgement' at all, but about trying...on a message board...to share experiences and hope you and others will eliminate just ONE of our mistakes.  Don't know which one you or anyone else may avoid?  But if I share them and what worked well, what didn't (for us!), then maybe just one of them will be avoided by someone.

 

I will definitely say one thing - and this is NOT to be taken as a shot against anyone, cause its not - the landscape has indeed changed very fast and I am VERY thankful that our 2 sons (2004 & 2011) got through it all before it became what it is today.  I'm thankful for many simple things, but one for sure is enjoying middle school, rec and HS baseball (immensely!!) without all of pressures and distractions that so many of you 2018-2020 parents seem to feel and experience.

 

I once had a parent of 10-year old call and ask me what kind of training program we had our older son on (when he was 10!!) that he got to throw so hard?  I was like, 'what the heck??'  I basically answered that he threw dirtclods in the summer time and snowballs in the winter and maybe that was it (tongue-in-cheek).  I find it a bit maddening that too many think they can 'train' their son's way to 90+.  I know, I know...some will argue you can, but at age 10?  I think you all may find yourselves here in 10 years telling parents of 10's the same thing we're trying to tell you parents of 14's.

 

Just something to ponder, nothing more. 

I'm cool with the baseball advice. Like I said, I think Ted22 nailed it, and lots of great posts from Scott Munroe, PGStaff, infielddad, wareagle, stats, TPM, roothog, bballman, jp24, and others. I even "Liked" bacdoorslider's first post for its baseball content.

 

This all started with a question at its core: is it a good approach to focus on command first, and then worry about velocity at a later date? Or is it better to do it the other way around? It seemed to me that this was the perfect place to ask that question. But maybe not.

 

Like I said, the baseball advice is valuable. But the vitriol (e.g., "home school the kid and develop him into a first rounder yourself") and assumptions (e.g., "Does he resent the fact that he was pressured into all this baseball and lessons, camps, tryouts etc") that get tossed around on here are laugh out loud stuff. No need for anyone to apologize for making someone laugh. Maybe it's the nature of a message board like this . . . but sometimes I think the posters with older kids make these assumptions because they have a guilty conscience about how they treated their kids! (that's a joke, not an accusation )

Just baseball, you are so right about the pressures.  I took some time away from the game between when I was an in shape young brown haired coach (80's and 90's) and when I got back in.  The changes were nothing short of unbelievable.   Since I got out at the very end of the 90's I was completely unaware if all this travel stuff.  Then my kid was 8 and somebody says to me "you should have him try out for big travel team A"  I had no idea what we were.getting into.  All of the sudden he finds himself the cleanup hitter on this team that wins almost all their tournaments - at nine years old!  It was too much for him.  He froze under the pressure and stopped swinging at all!   I don't want to bust him out but I had to hold him while he cried himself to sleep a couple times.  He just wasn't mentally prepared for that pressure at that age.  Finally we withdrew him and to give him a little security I coached his team at age 10.  The only year I coached him.  This really helped.   I yelled at him a couple times that season which I really regret now but in general it was good for him and he enjoyed baseball again.  Now it's his passion.  He can't get enough.  But I will tell you at 9 it was touch and go if the whole baseball experience was even worthwhile.  So yes there are a lot of pitfalls along the way.

And maybe I am misinterpreting here.  I am just the type who would say "hey we made it, you can too!  Come on let me give you a hand and we will get to the promised land together"  that's just my personality.  So when I hear so many cautioning voices maybe I take that the wrong way.

I think we all need to keep in perspective the hierarchy of baseball: 

 

6-9:  Youth rec ball.  Have fun.  Don't pee your pants.

10-12:  Youth travel ball and rec/LL for some.  Have fun, but compete.

13-14:  Sprint to High School.  Get yourself ready for HS ball. 

15-18:  Play HS ball and chase girls.  Watch those grades. 

18+:  Play at the next level if you can. 

 

Now for most, to worry about College before HS is a waste of time.  Way too many things can and do happen.  If you are competing at a high level in HS, then it's time to think about the next level.  Unfortunately, these days we all hear about the early commits and think that we have to get on that train or we'll be left behind.  Thus the pressure to start earlier and earlier.  The reality is from a lot of posts here, the next level sounds like a freaking stressful meat grinder.  I am not sure there is even value in it for most. 

But that's not really an either or question.  You need both.  In the instant case, your kid throws mid 70's.  And the coach wants to change is mechanics to improve command.  I am certain the coach isn't looking to make the kid throw in the 60's just so he has command.  Will the mechanics change decrease the velocity?  If so, is there a way to get that velocity back?  You really don't know unless you try.    

As I've mentioned, I don't think they have to be mutually exclusive.  I think people need to realize that working on velocity isn't JUST "letting it rip".  Proper mechanics can help velocity A LOT.  I, personally, think that sometimes "letting it rip" can produce mechanics that are not healthy or good.  If you are letting it rip with proper mechanics, then that is good.  If you are letting it rip with bad mechanics, you are not only possibly hurting your velocity, but you very well may be hurting your arm as well.

 

It goes along with the old saying - practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect.  Others may disagree, but I say make sure your mechanics are sound, then velocity and command will follow.  Let it rip, but do it with proper mechanics...

This is right on. However, I'll add one objection, because I see it all the time. I see plenty of kids at the HS level throwing it by batters in the 82-84 range of velocity. I think that's true of most high schools, excepting the better teams in the upper classifications.

I think we're lost in semantics here. When some of us argue that velocity can be taught, I don't think we mean anything more than what you are contending. What we mean is that with improved strength and improved mechanics we can maximize any player's velocity. I think you're seeing more and more of that every year as the list of kids throwing 90+ expands exponentially. I think that a lot more kids are genetically able to throw 90 than you or even I would have previously imagined. So, in that sense, yes velocity can be taught within limits. However, those limits are a lot higher than previously imagined.

I think you did come to the perfect place for baseball advice. The one area that I find this place somewhat lacking is open mindedness, keep in mind that I honestly believe most of the advice is spot on but you need to take it for what it is worth, apply it to your son and your big picture and decide how to use the advice or if to use it at all.

 

Example, my 2017 son really want to play college baseball, he hasn't been to a Perfect game event yet, he is going tis weekend for the first time. Why? because he is getting exactly what he looking for closer to home. He has been in front of D1, D2 an D3 many times. He wants to stay closer to home for school, he wants to be a player being recruited not a player hoping to get a chance...if that means playing D3 instead of D1, so be it.

 

He hasn't reached out to one college yet, he has responded to 10 or 12 that have reached out to him, he has been a on several unofficial visits and will start to zero in what he likes. That goes against everything you hear on this site but it fits him well, he is comfortable in that spot. it may cost him an opportunity somewhere but it also may get in him the perfect spot for him to thrive.

 

D1 isn't the end all and the holy grail of 25% or 50% doesn't necessarily mater to everyone...that is just the truth. I would rather spend 50k a year and have him be happy, educated and successful on and off the field at D3 then being chasing a dream that may or may not existing at some lower ranked D1. His mother and I have prepared for college long before he had an interest in baseball - so the money if any should secondary by a very large margin.

 

At the end of the day, read the advise, decide what is going to be in your sons best interest and move forward with a plan.

I also think there is a genetic limit to how hard a player can throw.  However, increasing strength and mechanics will help a player get to that genetic limit.  If you don't work on mechanics or strength, you may not reach that limit - whether it be 95 or 85.  I don't think it's a matter of "do nothing because you can only throw what you can throw".  Not saying anyone is saying that, but there are things you can do to reach your potential.

 

If a pitcher's genetic limit is 95 and he does nothing, he may only reach 88.  If a pitcher's genetic limit is 85 and he does nothing, he may only reach 80.  Work on mechanics and strength in order to reach whatever limit you have in you.  Unless you work at it, you will never really know what you might have been able to do.

justbaseball - I've got a 9yo and am trying to get him up to speed on the "dirtclod" program.  Can you outline that program and let everyone know whether it is better than the "snowball" program?  Do there programs have any regional differences such a good clay soil and/or frozen precipitation?

I'm going to introduce a novel concept (tongue firmly in cheek). Can you teach velocity? Yes. Can you teach control? Yes. Is there a difference in how you teach them? NO! How exactly do you teach control? I think most would agree that the secret to control is repeatable mechanics. So, how is teaching repeatable mechanics counter to teaching mechanics that provide increased velocity? I'd say it's not. Look at Randy Johnson. If you remember how he was early in his career, he was a bus wreck. Upper 90's with no idea where it was going to end up. There was no "working" on his control. It just took years of repetition until he got to the point that his mechanics were consistent and then control came all at once.

I'm waiting on it, too. I want to propose that justbaseball and I start an academy teaching the "dirtclod velocity program." Videos, personal dirtclod training, books and - most importantly - our patented weighted dirtclods. I'm seeing riches beyond our wildest dreams. Waddyathink, jb?

       
       
Root I wish I could give this a thousand likes instead of one!

       
       
Golf I simply can not agree.  There are always haves and have nots.  Sort of like old school and his 50k a year for college, God bless him he has a lot more financial resources than I do!  I am definitely a have not in that area.  Same with player ability haves and have nots.  But we have to leave room for the maybes!  Agreed the great ones don't need travel ball, don't need to stress at an early age and can spend their time chasing girls and enjoying the ride.  And the have nots will never get there no matter what they do. But what about that kid who has a high enough ceiling to do it but not without working longer and stronger than his competition?  The guys root talked about who maybe were left behind in the past when nobody did these things. I don't know if my son will make it or not.  But I guarantee you - stone cold guarantee you that if he doesn't work his tail end off starting now (he has already started) he has no chance.  zero.  I still want him to chase girls, but he better make sure they like working out so they can spend time together!

There really is a lot of good stuff in this thread.  While there might be some disagreement  this is a good example of the HSBBW.

 

Anyway, it has been proven over and over many times, there are many different paths to success, but nearly every one of those paths require a love for the game.  People simply "perform" better when they do things they really enjoy doing.  In my mind that should be the goal of every coach and parent at every level, but especially important in the younger age groups. Everything else is secondary.

 

The only thing I might add to the original topic is this.  As a young player you might work on velocity and/or "control".  Command is actually a combination of the two in most cases.  Command is control with stuff!  (Movement, life, velocity, etc.) BP pitchers have control, at least they should, they don't need command.  The first step is control, it comes before command.

 

Some pitch below their max velocity because it helps them create more movement and accuracy, thus better command.  Others throw their max velocity and don't worry as much about command.  Then there are a few that have it all and they are among the best ones.

 

If it were a young kid learning how to pitch, I would want to work on both velocity and control.  It doesn't have to be one more than other, they can work together.  Only when the young kid shows the ability to control a good fastball, would we even talk about command or working on other pitches. Others might go about it differently and I'm sure that has worked out well for some, too.

Not sure where you got "don't work hard" from me.  All players should work hard to be the best they can be at that time.  But working hard at 12, 13, 14 is about getting to high school not college.  Working hard as a freshman / sophomore is about getting to varsity - especially for the "maybe" kid.  Each level builds upon itself.  Once you're competing in HS then it becomes about the next level.  

       
       
I am concerned about his 15u team as this class is rich in pitching.  But high school?  You would have to be in the best of the best baseball areas to not make your high school team.  High school is a given.  It IS time to think about college.  But I am ready simply to agree to disagree on this one.

In my area, a lot of good players don't make it thru HS baseball.  It is very competitive.  On a freshman squad of 20 A's and 20 B's you'll get 100+ kids trying out.  After that, the funnel really narrows. 

 

But It's not about just making your HS team.  It's about competing at a high level in HS.  Even in the weakest programs only 9 kids can play a varsity game.  Once you are regularly one of the 9, then the question is how do you compete against your peers on other teams.  Are you one of the best in your conference/region/state?  If not, good luck getting to that next level.  Worrying about college ball before playing and performing at HS varsity seems to me to be jumping steps. 

been reading this post as it's interesting and has addressed many of the issues that are out there, and it's had a few twists and turns since the original post, so I'll go ahead and take it in yet another direction-  the reference to HS ball is interesting.  As we went through the process with my son, it became apparent to me, and this is my opinion, that in our area,  HS ball is completely irrelevant- for those that have a desire to play at the next level.    Relative to the summer ball, it's just not very good.  Rarely was there a college coach at a HS game- I think I saw one local school at two of our HS games, none of the coaches my son spoke to asked him where he played HS ball, and none of them contacted the HS coach.  The schools that were interested saw him play in the summer, and all communication was through his summer coach (until they were allowed to call directly).    So, my take away here is that HS baseball is fun, playing with your buddies and representing your school is part of the whole HS experience, but if you want to play in college, you should do your research and identify a summer travel program that plays in the right league or tournaments, and make it your goal to make that team. 

       
       
Well said Pa.  I decided to leave it alone, but then you said almost verbatim what I would have said.  High school = fun, travel ball = competition and recruitment.

when you are developing your program, please warn folks not to let their kids skip rocks- that is unless they want to become a submariner.

 

Splitting hairs.  Substitute "HS team" for "HS aged travel team"  You have to compete on your HS aged TB team before you have a chance for the "next level." 

I agree and as example 2018 is 88-90 and on a team I would consider elite , as all the teammates have signed D1 ACC or SEC. Canes. But I atill have no idea what will happen until it happens


> On Oct 5, 2015, at 3:36 AM, HS Baseball Web <alerts@hoop.la> wrote:
>

Not defending any turf , good luck to you and your son.

> On Oct 5, 2015, at 9:42 AM, HS Baseball Web <alerts@hoop.la> wrote:
>

Well uh, yes a stated in my post my mistakes thanks for reading between the lines. Hey I know some of my posts my hit home with some, but I was trying to help from my mistakes, you know a lot more people read this than get involved in the thread so maybe it will help one of them

> On Oct 5, 2015, at 10:42 AM, HS Baseball Web <alerts@hoop.la> wrote:
>

"So, my take away here is that HS baseball is fun, playing with your buddies and representing your school is part of the whole HS experience, but if you want to play in college, you should do your research and identify a summer travel program that plays in the right league or tournaments, and make it your goal to make that team."

 

"High school = fun, travel ball = competition and recruitment."

 

Maybe it is me, but I am having a real tough time with the idea a player has a different mind-set on a baseball team and baseball field depending on whether he is playing for his HS or a travel team, or, I guess, in a showcase or camp.  Doesn't the HS team and coach deserve at least the same mental mindset and commitment from someone who views HS as a "given" as that player is going to give to his travel team, or in a camp or showcase?

I have read 100's of posts on this site over the years to the effect you never know who is watching. If that is true, why would there be any difference in "fun" vs "competition and recruitment."  

It may not happen in some High Schools, ( I can guess it would in many High Schools in Northern CA,) but I would project that  college coaches could be  turned off by a player who changed mental attitudes to suit his definition of "fun" as contrasted with whatever mental approach is brought when the player thinks he is being recruited.

Applying this to college and the draft, we have gone to Stanford games for the last 15 or so years.  At the very beginning of the season and very end of each season, the Friday night pitchers  for Stanford and most away teams have scouts and cross-checkers and even GM's sitting in the stands, when the Friday night guys are draft eligible.  So, do they "compete" in some different way when the scouts and GM's are there as contrasted with every other Friday night start during a college season when they are not there, or not in nearly the same quantity?

Maybe those who advocate "exposure" and "recruitment" understand this far better than me.  Knowing our son's HS coach and college coach, neither would have tolerated or accepted mindset's to competing which varied in ways which are being suggested here. 

 

"High school = fun, travel ball = competition and recruitment."

 

Totally agree.  Travel ball lead to son's recruitment.  But in my son's case, the RC did come and see him pitch in HS playoff game.  RC's rationale was that he really likes to see kids in a really competitive environment which he felt HS games provided.  RC felt that those games mattered and liked to see recruits in that type of environment in addition to the showcase/travel environment.  I believe RC only went to HS games of his potential recruits, not as a source of identifying new recruits.

Great post

> On Oct 5, 2015, at 12:14 PM, HS Baseball Web <alerts@hoop.la> wrote:
>

I'm with you, infielddad. Around here, high school ball is serious stuff (at least in the largest classification). But we have over 10 million people in our county, with weather that enables year-round play. And I get that things may be different in other parts of the country.

Given my kid's specific circumstances, I found myself agreeing with golfman -- earlier in this thread I didn't think I'd be saying THAT -- in that competing for playing time in high school is priority number one. At his school "varsity starter" pretty much equals "college recruit" -- just because, otherwise they wouldn't be starting!!

But I understand it could be completely different elsewhere.

I agree with all this , but forecasting 3 years out and say Jonny is going to be a D1 player because everything is magically going to fall into place is a pipe dream

> On Oct 5, 2015, at 12:19 PM, HS Baseball Web <alerts@hoop.la> wrote:
>

       
       
Agreed.  Pretty sure we all agree.  But why don't you tell us who Johnny's dad/mom is?  Problem is I missed that post.  Didn't see anyone forcasting 3 years out and saying their son is going to have things magically fall into place and be a D1 ballplayer.  Poor little johnny.  All I ever hear are bad things about his parents!  I would love to give them a piece of my mind unfortunately I am having a bit of trouble locating them on here.

No doubt about it.  The vast majority of recruiting action takes place during the summer and fall. Two reasons for that, 1. colleges play their season in the spring.  2. They can see many prospects in one location which saves time and money.

 

However, I agree with infielddad. Only I look at it a bit differently.  HS baseball should be fun, but so should summer or fall baseball be fun. If you're playing baseball you better be having fun or you're wasting your time. Every player competes when they play, be it HS, summer or fall.  A player might be more relaxed when there are no scouts or recruiters watching, but that should never change the way he plays the game.

Good luck to you and your son .

> On Oct 5, 2015, at 6:10 PM, HS Baseball Web <alerts@hoop.la> wrote:
>

Originally Posted by roothog66:

I'm going to introduce a novel concept (tongue firmly in cheek). Can you teach velocity? Yes. Can you teach control? Yes. Is there a difference in how you teach them? NO! How exactly do you teach control? I think most would agree that the secret to control is repeatable mechanics. So, how is teaching repeatable mechanics counter to teaching mechanics that provide increased velocity? I'd say it's not. Look at Randy Johnson. If you remember how he was early in his career, he was a bus wreck. Upper 90's with no idea where it was going to end up. There was no "working" on his control. It just took years of repetition until he got to the point that his mechanics were consistent and then control came all at once.

 

What’s unfortunate is there are so many who sincerely believe velocity is almost entirely genetically based, many who have the capacity aren’t given the opportunity. Included in that group are those sincerely believing that velocity can’t be taught in any way, shape, or form.

 

I happen to be one who completely believes in the secret to pitching is repeatable mechanics, but I go a bit further than most. I believe trying to have pitchers throwing different pitch types at young ages only makes getting repeatable mechanics that much more difficult because the mechanics for the different pitch types are all different to at least some degree. The quest of repeatable mechanics is also hampered by switching from throwing from the stretch as opposed to the windup, which is a big reason I’ve always like close bases as opposed to open bases.

 

In the final analysis, too many confuse youth pitchers with miniature ML pitchers and try to make them look, throw, and act like the cream of the crop of grown men playing in the ML.

We read a great deal on HSBBWEB about reaching the "magical number of 90" as a pitcher. But college hitters can hit 90 mph too. Good that control is addressed here, but movement and location is also key to being effective at whatever the next level is for the player.

Nice post.  Yes many are genetically gifted.

As I have posted many times, you can improve velocity and control by  teaching repeatable mechanics and good conditioning included in a healthy diet is the key.

 

Its really that simple.

Some very good advice above.

2019dad,

This place is one of a kind on the internet.  You will never find a more dedicated group of parents, coaches, professionals who come here willingly to help with nothing to gain.

You will never ask a simple question here and get a simple answer.

But you did ask and you got great answers.  Its for you to decide, but you need to do your homework first.  You need to nunderstasmd the process. Sorry if this sounds preachy, its not meant to be. You need to understand the process and how and why command and velocity work when the mechanics get better. There is no 13, 14 YO on earth who can repeat their delivery using 3-4 different pitches to look the same 50 or 60 times in a game.

 

There is no one magic formula, as bballman has told you repeatably, it's not one thing , it all works together. I really think that you have completely misunderstood what the coach meant so I do urge you to go back and speak with him.  

Good luck.

 

 

in my earlier post, I didn't mean to insinuate that the players should play with any less intensity in HS ball, in fact that really irritates me when I see it.  My point was that in our area, and I know it's much different in other areas, although it is "competitive" and can be intense at times, HS baseball just doesn't have a very high level of talent in general- around here.  At our HS, we may only have 1 kid  every year or two go on to play any level of college ball, and maybe only 5 or 6 a year in our conference play at any level in college.  Don't ask me why, I can't figure it out and I'd love to see it improve.  We've had some great players come from this area, McKay for Louisville is the latest example.   My point was that if a kid aspires to play in college from our area, he has to get on a travel team.  I've seen a few kids over the years get overlooked because they and their parents just don't do their due diligence, and don't know what needs to be done in order to get to the next level.  They believe that "if you are good enough, they'll find you", and that may work in football, but it doesn't work in baseball, at least not in our area.

I keep reading about repeatable mechanics....can someone please tell me exactly what that means?

 

Does it mean the pitcher lands in the same spot each pitch?

Does it mean the pitcher has the same exact arm speed each pitch?

Does it mean the pitcher has the exact arm angle each pitch?

Does it mean the pitcher has the exact stride each pitch?

Does it mean the pitcher has the same spin rate for each pitch type?

Does it mean the pitcher has the same forearm angle each pitch?

Does it mean the pitcher recruits the same amount of power from his glutes each pitch?

Does it mean the pitcher stands in the exact same place on the rubber each pitch?

Does it mean the pitcher only pitches from the stretch each pitch?

Does it mean the pitcher throws the same MPH for each fastball, curveball, slider, etc?

Does it mean the pitcher holds the ball in the exact same spot each time for a fastball, cureball, slider, etc?

Does it mean the pitcher is feeling as strong as he was from his previous outing?

Does it mean the pitcher has the same focus as the last time he pitched?

Does it mean all of the above?

 

Can anyone provide me video links of someone with repeatable mechanics? When I watch slow motion video of the best in the game, not one guy (that I have been able to find) throws two pitches the same way. One pitch he may be sitting deeper in his glutes, the next his forearm flys out a little more than the previous pitch, another pitch his strike foot is at a different angle,  ...etc, etc..

 

Just would like to have a deeper understanding of what repeatable mechanics is. So if anyone could help me with this I would greatly appreciate it. Thank you.

 

 

It is a fallacy basically.  

You are right, no two throws are the same.   To the naked eye it is mechanics that look the same, arm slot doesn't have obvious changes or something that jumps out.  

Usually, what people mean is smooth mechanics.  Not herky-jerky.  Nothing that is an obvious red flags.  You can have someone who looks very smooth with their mechanics but who is not efficient. 

Like most things that are verbal indicators for a physical movement, can mean different things to different people.  

       
       


Now that makes sense! Thank you!

I think you are over thinking it.  No two things are exactly alike.  But everything has a tolerance.  So take something like stride length.  Repeatable would mean a stride within a certain variance (say plus/minus 3 inches?) which doesn't materially affect the pitch.    

Well said. 

It should not be about trying to exactly replicate a motion but making things more efficient (more explosive, safer ect). 

Thank you all for the replys! So in summary, there is no such thing as repeatable mechanics just a phrase people like to throw out when the think they know or see (without the aid of video) what proper mechanics looks like within a certain tolerance.


Now who determines what proper mechanics and the tolerances should be or look like? I only ask because there is such a variety of Pitching styles out there that have allowed players to become successful...Should my son model himself after Maddux, Kershaw, Tim Collins  or any other MLB pitcher?

Sorry not trying to be a pain in the butt, just feel fortunate to have so many knowledgeable members who are willing to help and if by asking the right questions it not only helps my son, but other players as well, I would consider it a good thing.

No there are repeatable mechanics.  Just not to the exactness you appear to desire.  Again, everything in the world has a tolerance band.  Plus/minus some factor. 

 

As for whose mechanics to replicate, the one who allows you to achieve your highest level of success without incurring injury. 

Sigh. Sounds like you think you had a point to make and then took any reply given as support for your contention. Repeatable mechanics deal with arm slot, release, particular checkpoints, and timing. Take video from the back of most successful major leaguers and then superimpose several like pitches over one another and you will, indeed see what repeatable mechanics are.

       
       

Sorry no where in my post did I mention I desired exactness....watched too many slow motion video to know that there is no such thing as repeatable mechanics. What I was trying to understand is why "coaches" keep referring to repeatable mechanics when there is clearly no such animal. Thanks to Leftside he helped me understand the term "repeatable mechanics" is a concept painted in a coaches head of what a successful Pitching motion is and even that concept has deviations.

I like what you said about "achieving the highest level of success without causing injury" that makes sense. So if a pitcher is taught to alter his finish from the traditional "fielding position" to a finish that allows his arm more time  decelerate , as well as, avoid shoulder bang why in the world would any coach want to do the opposite?

Again, just trying to understand...not offend.

To be more specific, I use certain checkpoints to determine if a pitcher is using repeatable mechanics from which he can, with an acceptable degree of accuracy, place pitches where he wants with very slight variances in those mechanics. Foot strike placement, glove side position, posture, release point, and pivot foot turnover.

 

In order to effectively move a ball around the strike zone or cloak your pitch selection, you first have to establish baseline physical positioning that can be repeated at will. You are correct that pitchers will show slight variations pitch-to-pitch. That is by design. Most successful pitchers have developed a baseline delivery which has been muscle memory engrained. From that base point (established repeatable mechanics) they can then use small variances to initiate movement, placement, and velocity changes. So, what we mean by repeatable mechanics is that a pitcher wanting to throw a fastball middle at the knees would show very similar mechanics for every one of those pitches. Certainly, you would see very slight variances in mechanics for a fastball at the neck and a fastball at the knees, for a curve low and outside and a curve inside at the belt.

       
       


Done that! Thank you. Some of the best in the game fall off to one side.  I am just trying to understand why 2019dad's son's HS coach is trying to make his son land in a fielding position when some of the best in the business do not. My son does that so if it is wrong I would like to know now rather than later.

Also, if my posts bother you I am sorry.

I agree that physical mechanics will vary some from pitch to pitch, AND. . . .from person to person.  Also, staying with certain tolerances is key to consistency and performance.  The difficulty come in both communicating and understanding just where the key tolerances are to maximize one's performance.

 

Before doing some baseball coaching, I taught golf starting back in the early 70's and back then we didn't have much in the way of slow motion video feedback like today.  When casually looking at professional players then, we could easily see huge differences in golf swings (e.g. Chi Chi Rodriguez, Arnold Palmer, Lee Trevino, Gary Player, Sam Snead, Jack Nicklaus).  But on close inspection of certain points in their swings (e.g. point of contact), they all had the same position (within narrow tolerances of course).  In today's terms, their "kinetic chain" was pretty much the same.  One might say that Jack Nicklaus had the prettiest/perfect swing, which is the type of swing golfers try to achieve today.  lol . . . you certainly don't see Chi Chi's type of swing being taught.  The point here is, you don't have to look the same to achieve good performance, but you DO have to reach those key points within a physical movement (and within certain tolerances) in order to achieve high performance and consistency.  The advent of human kinetics in this day and age helps identify where these points are and technology helps us see whether we're able to get within the required tolerances. In the golf world, it seems this has taken a lot of the "art" out of golf as we don't see the wide range of swing differences as we once did. 

 

Baseball has now followed suit as more coaches teach and players try to change their "mechanical signature" to look like what's more perceived as mechanically sound.  When trying to analyze hitting and throwing, it's a complex kinetic chain that's hard to communicate (particularly to those who are not physically oriented).  In any case, it's important to understand what one needs to achieve within that kinetic chain in order to achieve their maximum or desired performance. For many elite athletes, that understanding tends to come more intuitively along with lots of practice.   

 

For consistency, in my mind, the bottom line is simply . . . practice makes perfect. 

       
       


Excellent....thank you!

       
       

Well said! Thank you.

Thank you to everyone who replied! I am grateful for your time and hopefully someone else benefits as well!

I will stop posting on this thread as it appears I am ruffling some feathers and that truely is not what I meant to do. I value the opinion of those  before me and am thankful you took the time to share.

If you haven't ruffled feathers, you haven't added anything to the conversation.

The only thing that bothered me was the approach. if you have an opinion to offer, then offer it. Disguising your argument as a question when you obviously have an agenda means that the question you ask is ingenuous. There's no problem with having an agenda, by the way.

 

My son also falls off to the first base side. My own personal opinion is that very few pitchers who come finished in the "fielding position" are firing the ball at their maximum capable velocity. Falling off to the glove side to some degree is almost inherently involved I max effort.

Here is a good article from ASMI on proper pitching mechanics.  I think it does a good job of highlighting some of the key points and items along the kinetic chain Truman was talking about.  ASMI even recognizes that getting to certain points will be different for certain pitchers based on arm slot, but there are certain aspects of the pitching motion that should be adhered to no matter who the pitcher is.  I think it is worth the read:

 

http://web.usabaseball.com/pla...chanics-of-pitching/

It's wrong if it doesn't allow you to be effective.  I suppose that is the current coach's determination.  Without seeing video of the kid we are all just guessing. 

Here are two GIFs embedded in a recent FanGraphs article that asks whether it's possible Michael Wacha's struggles of late are the result of deviating from his usual mechanics in two ways: arm slot and falling further off the mound toward first base.

 

When I hear "repeatable mechanics" this is what comes to mind. (couldn't figure out how to embed in post -- but worth clicking through.

 

http://zippy.gfycat.com/BoldEmbellishedHarrier.webm

http://zippy.gfycat.com/AnchoredTornBlesbok.webm

 

Here's the whole article.

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs...michael-wacha-maybe/

I think you can see some of the same with Lincecum the past two or three years - his posture has been different. He seemingly doesn't arch his back as much as he used to. There has been some speculation that after breaking a bit from his dad, someone else may have suggested that it was too much and changed him just that little bit.

 

I think that by september fatigue sets in and thus the pitcher begins to lose his repeatable mechanics. 

 

Also (I know that you know this roothog) when a pitcher experiences injury, even the slightest, one thing begins to compensate for another. Example, son had some shoulder issues, after that was ok the elbow began to bother him (not the ligament). And you get older and then its really harder.

 

As far as falling off to the side, I think that many will teach the young pitcher how to land in a position that he will be able to defend himself. Later on, when the pitcher becomes more knowledgeable, things can change.  

 

Not sure why someone would give anyone else a hard time over repeatable mechanics. Its really a no brainer IMO.  

 

I just love it when someone comes here telling us that his young son throws his pitches from all different arm angles, that is why he is so successful. Yeah just wait until the other guy on the team picks it up. That happened to my son when entering college, he was tipping his CU, changed his arm angle a slight bit and someone picked up on it. Took a while to straighten it out, coach said he had probably been doing it forever but got away with it as a youth pitcher and in HS. Not so at the next level.

 

A pitcher never, never stops working on his mechanics, even the old guys. lol

 

Lincecum had hip surgery last month. Sounds like he has bilateral and degenerative hip issues.  While not much information has  been released, I would not be surprised if the hips have been a more chronic issue and accounts for much of the regression and issues for the last 1-2 years, at least.

I agree with you infielddad and that would explain why his mechanics changed.

 

His mechanics, before they changed, might also help explain why he has, probably, progressive  bilateral hip disease, too, TPM. 

I don't think repeatable mechanics and good mechanics are synonymous. 

 

I think repeatable mechanics are critical - when viewed from the batters perspective. Every pitch, whether a FB, CB or whatever must look the same up to the point of release from the batters perspective. Obviously, a release point differs, for example, in an inside FB and and outside FB; but the difference is millimeters and not visible to a batter with good eyesight. But, a pitcher who delivers only CB from an over the head slot and who delivers a FB from a 3/4 slot is not repeating.

 

So, I'll stick with a simple practical definition: if every pitch looks the same to the batter upon release (or base runner in some cases), you're repeating. If there is anything different (e.g., changing alignment, slot, arm speed, etc.) which can be detected by the batter, you're not repeating.

Luckily for Lincecum, the original diagnosis of degenerative hip disease turned out to be off the mark. The surgeon reported that the joints themselves were in much better condition than expected. It was a torn labrum and some bone build up on his left hip that needed to be shaved down. It turns out that the bone buildup was mimicking a lot of degenerative symptoms. He should recover fully according to his surgeon.

Good point!

"He should recover fully according to his surgeon."

 

I think that is part of the residency training in orthopedic surgery. Amazing how many situations don't end up that way.

I am not taking the over but I would love to see it happen.

Oops, hit the wrong button before I had completed the thought.

 

Repeatability from the pitchers perspective enables him to pitch with a high degree of consistency. For example, changing the release point minutely (not perceivable to the batter) allows the pitcher to pitch the entire plate but so does changing the alignment of the stride foot (probably perceivable to the batter) with the same release point; apart from the fact the batter sees it (see above) I think it's harder to control the stride foot then making minute adjustnmets to the release point.

 

That's why guys with what many would consider marginal mechanics can throw well - they repeat those mechanics.

 

Maximizing each pitcher's mechanics takes them one step closer to reaching genetically limited velo, IMO.