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Need some advice re: HS pitching

D 2019Dad10,000+ posts

I've seen a number of threads regarding kids having conflicts with HS coaches, and I thought "that'll never happen to 2019Son, he gets along with all of his coaches . . ." Not only was I wrong, but I was wrong immediately!!

 

Here's the background:

  • 2019Son goes to a private school with an exceptional baseball program in the highest classification in California. Nearly every senior goes on to play college baseball, with the majority (~80% recently) going D1. Quite a few high draft picks as well. He played for the HS coaches on a travel team in 8th grade. They were thrilled when he was able to get into the school.
  • The head varsity coach invited 2019Son and me into a meeting right before school started, to go over the program, where they see 2019Son contributing, etc. In the course of this 30-minute meetings, one of the comments he made is that when it comes to pitching they prioritize command first, and then later try to have the kids add velocity. He also told me (outside of 2019Son's hearing) that they like his arm and his bat -- thus, they see him as a two-way player.
  • 2019Son has always tried to throw as hard as he can. He is what I describe as a "momentum pitcher" -- he brings a lot of momentum down the hill. He has a tendency to fall off towards the first base side (he is a RHP). His control is decent -- he averages about 60% strikes, with the range being 55% (on a bad day) to 65% (on a good day).
  • Pitching coach was a legendary high school pitcher around 15 years ago. Was a command-and-control guy and just dominated in high school -- one of the best high school pitchers around. Didn't have a ton of velocity. Went to a JC and then pitched a couple of years for a NAIA school, throwing maybe 25 innings for them, total.
  • So far the coaches have had 2019Son play JV scrimmages (there are three teams, Varsity, JV, and Freshmen). He is one of only 4 freshmen playing JV, although I believe another one will join when he comes back from injury. It's only been a couple of games, but 2019Son has pitched (0 runs in a few innings) and hit well (2 for 5 with a walk). I believe that the coaches intend for 2019Son to play JV this year (2016), and to compete for a varsity spot next year (2017).
  • 2019Son is currently 5'11" and 142 lbs. (Note: real height and weight, not adding 2 inches like I see happen so often). He is still 14, and has another 4 months before he turns 15. I expect that by the time he graduates high school he will be 6"1" or maybe 6"2" and somewhere between 180 and 200 lbs. Although this isn't really relevant for pitching, I also expect that he'll run a 6.8 or 6.9 sixty-yard dash by then (he was at 7.4 in July at the USA Baseball tournament). He is a left-handed hitter.
  • He throws reasonably hard for his age -- good, but not great. He touched 77.4 mph at a pitching facility in July, and was sitting at 75-76 mph at the USA baseball tournament in Arizona in July. He throws a two-seamer, not a four-seamer, so it may be that he could throw a bit harder with a four-seamer (my understanding is that for most pitchers there is a difference of a couple mph). I do think that as he puts on 40-60 lbs in high school, he will likely add velocity -- though of course that is speculation at this point.
  • 2019Son made a very high profile high school travel team about five weeks ago. Close to 100% of this program goes on to play college baseball, lots of kids drafted, a number of MLB players, etc.

With that background, here's what's going on. His high school coaches have made it clear that they don't want him pitching for the travel team, at least not until next summer. They also don't want him to go to the travel team's practices (he has 3 HS practices per week), though he can play games on weekends (just not pitch). The pitching coach has told 2019Son that he needs to "control his momentum," and not fall off towards first base at all. In bullpen sessions, the pitching coach has placed a trash can where 2019Son would fall off, causing 2019Son to step towards third base (and thus throw across his body) in an attempt to not hit the trash can. 2019Son is reluctant to change his mechanics, and really reluctant not to try to throw as hard as he can. The pitching coach has also told 2019Son that he will learn a four-seamer. 2019Son has been told by the pitching coach that "he has better stuff than other kids, but it won't matter if he can't command it" and has been told a number of times by the pitching coach and by a few other coaches in the program that he has a ton of potential.

 

With respect to the four-seamer, I think that's straightforward -- I told 2019Son that it can only help him to learn one. And there is no good reason why he doesn't throw one -- he just felt more comfortable with a two-seamer, so that's what he threw.

 

With respect to the travel team, also straightforward -- he is following his HS coaches' instructions to the letter. I appreciate the coaches' concern about overthrowing, injury, etc.

 

With respect to pitching mechanics, here are 2019Son's options as I see them (and would appreciate any advice):

 

(1) Change his mechanics, reduce his momentum (if he can't stop falling off at his current momentum), do what his pitching coach wants, and hope it doesn't cost him too much velocity (or, if it does, that the velocity comes back quickly).

(2) Try to have a discussion with the pitching coach about mechanics. (Note: I'd be surprised if this goes well.)

(3) Continue to throw the way he feels comfortable, and hope that the results are good enough to not hurt him when it comes to playing time.

(4) Express a desire to be a position player only. Pitch in the summer for the travel team.

 

Any other ideas? Any advice?

 

For what it's worth, my view is that these types of conflicts result because the coaches have short and medium-term goals (winning as many games as possible this year and over the next few years) and the player may have additional long-term goals (e.g., playing in college at a high level). By way of example, a pitcher throwing 84 with absolute pinpoint command (say, averaging 1 or 2 walks per 9 innings) is likely worth more to his high school team that a pitcher throwing 89 with decent but not great command (say, averaging 4 walks per 9 innings). OTOH, the latter kid is often going to be more attractive to colleges.

 

Sorry for the long post.

 

Original Post

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W wareagle1,000+ posts

Our sons sound like twins, except I think mine eats a little more and just a little more velocity. He has always been a good pitcher but has never had any real lessons or anyone really work with him.

 

He has recently started some lessons and several very successful and respected coaches have all seen him workout and/or pitch in the last few months. They have all had the same opinion, to not fall off toward first base side, and even used the same drill that you describe.. It may be a little uncomfortable for him initially , but I think the concensus is that long term it will benefit him.

 

With your son being a 2019, I would think that the HS coach is looking longer term as well.

Best of luck!

infielddadinfielddad10,000+ posts

From your post, these sound like really good HS coaches who have been successful and know the game.  From your post, it sounds like they have the very best in mind for your son. From your post, it sounds like they see a flaw (and it does sound like a flaw) which needs correction.  Why not let them coach the adjustments?

Throwing as hard as you can with bad mechanics at the age of your son creates risks of arm injury coupled  with risks that he will top out and a lower level,  at an earlier stage, because of his mechanics. 

Last edited by infielddad
G Golfman2510,000+ posts
Originally Posted by 2019Dad:

I've seen a number of threads regarding kids having conflicts with HS coaches, and I thought "that'll never happen to 2019Son, he gets along with all of his coaches . . ." Not only was I wrong, but I was wrong immediately!!

 

Here's the background:

  • 2019Son goes to a private school with an exceptional baseball program in the highest classification in California. Nearly every senior goes on to play college baseball, with the majority (~80% recently) going D1. Quite a few high draft picks as well. He played for the HS coaches on a travel team in 8th grade. They were thrilled when he was able to get into the school.
  • The head varsity coach invited 2019Son and me into a meeting right before school started, to go over the program, where they see 2019Son contributing, etc. In the course of this 30-minute meetings, one of the comments he made is that when it comes to pitching they prioritize command first, and then later try to have the kids add velocity. He also told me (outside of 2019Son's hearing) that they like his arm and his bat -- thus, they see him as a two-way player.
  • 2019Son has always tried to throw as hard as he can. He is what I describe as a "momentum pitcher" -- he brings a lot of momentum down the hill. He has a tendency to fall off towards the first base side (he is a RHP). His control is decent -- he averages about 60% strikes, with the range being 55% (on a bad day) to 65% (on a good day).
  • Pitching coach was a legendary high school pitcher around 15 years ago. Was a command-and-control guy and just dominated in high school -- one of the best high school pitchers around. Didn't have a ton of velocity. Went to a JC and then pitched a couple of years for a NAIA school, throwing maybe 25 innings for them, total.
  • So far the coaches have had 2019Son play JV scrimmages (there are three teams, Varsity, JV, and Freshmen). He is one of only 4 freshmen playing JV, although I believe another one will join when he comes back from injury. It's only been a couple of games, but 2019Son has pitched (0 runs in a few innings) and hit well (2 for 5 with a walk). I believe that the coaches intend for 2019Son to play JV this year (2016), and to compete for a varsity spot next year (2017).
  • 2019Son is currently 5'11" and 142 lbs. (Note: real height and weight, not adding 2 inches like I see happen so often). He is still 14, and has another 4 months before he turns 15. I expect that by the time he graduates high school he will be 6"1" or maybe 6"2" and somewhere between 180 and 200 lbs. Although this isn't really relevant for pitching, I also expect that he'll run a 6.8 or 6.9 sixty-yard dash by then (he was at 7.4 in July at the USA Baseball tournament). He is a left-handed hitter.
  • He throws reasonably hard for his age -- good, but not great. He touched 77.4 mph at a pitching facility in July, and was sitting at 75-76 mph at the USA baseball tournament in Arizona in July. He throws a two-seamer, not a four-seamer, so it may be that he could throw a bit harder with a four-seamer (my understanding is that for most pitchers there is a difference of a couple mph). I do think that as he puts on 40-60 lbs in high school, he will likely add velocity -- though of course that is speculation at this point.
  • 2019Son made a very high profile high school travel team about five weeks ago. Close to 100% of this program goes on to play college baseball, lots of kids drafted, a number of MLB players, etc.

With that background, here's what's going on. His high school coaches have made it clear that they don't want him pitching for the travel team, at least not until next summer. They also don't want him to go to the travel team's practices (he has 3 HS practices per week), though he can play games on weekends (just not pitch). The pitching coach has told 2019Son that he needs to "control his momentum," and not fall off towards first base at all. In bullpen sessions, the pitching coach has placed a trash can where 2019Son would fall off, causing 2019Son to step towards third base (and thus throw across his body) in an attempt to not hit the trash can. 2019Son is reluctant to change his mechanics, and really reluctant not to try to throw as hard as he can. The pitching coach has also told 2019Son that he will learn a four-seamer. 2019Son has been told by the pitching coach that "he has better stuff than other kids, but it won't matter if he can't command it" and has been told a number of times by the pitching coach and by a few other coaches in the program that he has a ton of potential.

 

With respect to the four-seamer, I think that's straightforward -- I told 2019Son that it can only help him to learn one. And there is no good reason why he doesn't throw one -- he just felt more comfortable with a two-seamer, so that's what he threw.

 

With respect to the travel team, also straightforward -- he is following his HS coaches' instructions to the letter. I appreciate the coaches' concern about overthrowing, injury, etc.

 

With respect to pitching mechanics, here are 2019Son's options as I see them (and would appreciate any advice):

 

(1) Change his mechanics, reduce his momentum (if he can't stop falling off at his current momentum), do what his pitching coach wants, and hope it doesn't cost him too much velocity (or, if it does, that the velocity comes back quickly).

(2) Try to have a discussion with the pitching coach about mechanics. (Note: I'd be surprised if this goes well.)

(3) Continue to throw the way he feels comfortable, and hope that the results are good enough to not hurt him when it comes to playing time.

(4) Express a desire to be a position player only. Pitch in the summer for the travel team.

 

Any other ideas? Any advice?

 

For what it's worth, my view is that these types of conflicts result because the coaches have short and medium-term goals (winning as many games as possible this year and over the next few years) and the player may have additional long-term goals (e.g., playing in college at a high level). By way of example, a pitcher throwing 84 with absolute pinpoint command (say, averaging 1 or 2 walks per 9 innings) is likely worth more to his high school team that a pitcher throwing 89 with decent but not great command (say, averaging 4 walks per 9 innings). OTOH, the latter kid is often going to be more attractive to colleges.

 

Sorry for the long post.

 

Sorry, but this is going to be harsh.  It sounds like the kid pitches like his hair is on fire.  If he continues to pitch like he does he's going to be torched in HS.  High school hitters can hit mid 70's fastballs into orbit.  And you can't defend a walk.  So he needs to get with the program and follow the coach's advice as they are professional, experienced, and successful.  Once he gains more command, better mechanics, and as he grows the additional velocity will come.    

justbaseballjustbaseball10,000+ posts

Your son will have a hard time ever getting much time on a good HS team's pitching mound, let alone a college mound without very good-to-great command.  BTW, "command" does not equal "throwing strikes."  Its a much higher and coveted skill.

 

I'd advise your son to listen to his coaches.  Seems to me they most certainly have the long term in mind.

Last edited by justbaseball
Stats4GnatsStats4Gnats10,000+ posts

2019DAD,

 

Maybe I’m wrong, but ‘m guessing you’re having a difficult time reconciling the HS coaches’ perceptions vs. the very high profile high school travel team’s perceptions, thinking if he has all the problems the HS coaches identify, he wouldn’t have made the travel team. I’m also guessing you’re just a bit piqued that the HS coaches have the presumption to tell you and the boy what you can do on your own time with your own $$$$.

 

I’ve been through this same scenario in many different iterations and can say that it sure looks as though the HS coaches are on the right track and looking to protect the boy a lot more than the travel team is.

 

As for the other stuff like his control and mechanics, I have to agree with what others have said.

 

Good luck.

roothog66roothog6610,000+ posts

One problem comes with the perception that many coaches have that simply slowing down velocity will automatically equal improved control. It's never been my experience that this is true. It also doesn't seem, from what you've posted, that his control is so bad as to have noticeably affected his production. Throwing high seventies and having a coach preach slowing down for control rings odd to me. As to the "problem" of falling of towards first; I've never seen it as a problem for a righty. Trying to correct it seems to be addressing a non-problem that will cause more harm than good. However, it is your son who will have to read the situation and decide whether adjusting as his HS coach wants is necessary if he is to see mound time.

TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003

Someone gave us good advice when son entered into HS. The more people who tell your son what to do the more confused he will be.  You have gotten some good advice here, but the more advice you get the more confused you will get, so at this point, I would stick with the HS coaches who seem to know what they are doing, because your son is going to be with them for the next 4 years.  

 

So think about it and think about how young he is and what is more important at this time. 

 

#1, your son needs to learn to throw the 4 seam because all the other pitches work off of that pitch. Once he gets that down, he can throw it as hard as he wants. He is young so IMO he does not need to throw hard just to throw hard, but he does need to learn command of his pitches. The weight will come as he matures and begins a steady conditioning  routine.

 

This process is not a sprint but a marathon, so take one step at a time in his development.

Last edited by TPM
D 2019Dad10,000+ posts
Originally Posted by Scott Munroe:
Does your boy fall off like Kershaw, Sale and Fulmer?

Yes! And Pedro, Gibson, and too many MLB pitchers to count. The HS pitching coach is looking for something like Maddux -- perfect fielding position after throwing. Not that there is anything wrong with that, either. I don't think there is one-size-fits-all.

D 2019Dad10,000+ posts
Originally Posted by Stats4Gnats:

2019DAD,

 

Maybe I’m wrong, but ‘m guessing you’re having a difficult time reconciling the HS coaches’ perceptions vs. the very high profile high school travel team’s perceptions, thinking if he has all the problems the HS coaches identify, he wouldn’t have made the travel team. I’m also guessing you’re just a bit piqued that the HS coaches have the presumption to tell you and the boy what you can do on your own time with your own $$$$.

 

I’ve been through this same scenario in many different iterations and can say that it sure looks as though the HS coaches are on the right track and looking to protect the boy a lot more than the travel team is.

 

As for the other stuff like his control and mechanics, I have to agree with what others have said.

 

Good luck.

Thanks. It's not so much the travel team -- he's not pitching for them so that part has no conflict.

 

I don't know, maybe this kind of thing happens all the time.

Last edited by 2019Dad
D 2019Dad10,000+ posts
Originally Posted by Golfman25:

Sorry, but this is going to be harsh.  It sounds like the kid pitches like his hair is on fire.  If he continues to pitch like he does he's going to be torched in HS.  High school hitters can hit mid 70's fastballs into orbit.  And you can't defend a walk.  So he needs to get with the program and follow the coach's advice as they are professional, experienced, and successful.  Once he gains more command, better mechanics, and as he grows the additional velocity will come.    

Thanks. Regarding high school hitters sending mid 70's fastballs into orbit, agree 100%! That is why he is trying to throw harder.

 

Regarding "once he gains more command, better mechanics, and as he grows the additional velocity will come." I do not agree with this. At least, I see no evidence for it.

 

Part of the reason I included the details about the pitching coach's playing career is because he had the greatest command possible. His high school career could not have been better, and it was largely due to his unbelievable command. There is essentially a 0% chance that 2019Son, or any of the pitchers on the team, will be as good in high school as the pitching coach was. But the pitching coach's impeccable command did not lead to more velocity -- at least not the velocity required to have a successful college career.

P playball20115,000+ posts

Do u expect 14 yr olds to have perfect mechanics?

Not like he is a Sr and they r trying to change things. Let them help fix what needs to be worked on. 

u said its a great HS program and most go on to play in college, mostly D1. They must be doing something right. Sons just a Fr. And your already not happy? Gonna be a long 4 yrs. 

let coaches be in control, remember you chose this school, and see how it goes next Spring/Summer w him playing on two diff teams. He'll have a yr of conditioning by then and will be taller/stronger as u predict. 

Just curious, 7.4 is a bit slow, what's he doing to reach the 6.8 you predict he can be? 

A lot can happen in 4 yrs,  Developing son for next level  is a work in progress, good luck. Sounds like he has good opportunities to succeed. 

Last edited by playball2011
D 2019Dad10,000+ posts
Originally Posted by Golfman25:
 

 

Sorry, but this is going to be harsh.  It sounds like the kid pitches like his hair is on fire.  If he continues to pitch like he does he's going to be torched in HS.  High school hitters can hit mid 70's fastballs into orbit.  And you can't defend a walk.  So he needs to get with the program and follow the coach's advice as they are professional, experienced, and successful.  Once he gains more command, better mechanics, and as he grows the additional velocity will come.    

Oh, one more thing. Regarding "If he continues to pitch like he does he's going to be torched in HS," um, not sure what you mean. Do you mean "if he doesn't improve from the way he pitched the summer after 8th grade then he'll get torched in high school?" If that's what you mean, sure, I agree 100%.

justbaseballjustbaseball10,000+ posts

Thanks. It's not so much the travel team. More like "we-really-really-really-want-you-to-come-to-our-school" and now, when he gets there, "you need to overhaul your mechanics".

 

I don't know, maybe this kind of thing happens all the time.

I have an idea of at least one HS you may be talking about and by the way, that type of 'undue influence' to get you to attend a HS is absolutely against the rules in California where you live.  Its called 'recruiting.'  You may not want to talk about it so publicly.  Our younger son was faced with such attempts at undue influence...he just never went there (thank goodness).

 

Also, organized 'practices' at this time of the year is against the rules in most parts of CA (if not all) as well.

D 2019Dad10,000+ posts
Originally Posted by playball2011:

Do u expect 14 yr olds to have perfect mechanics?

Not like he is a Sr and they r trying to change things. Let them help fix what needs to be worked on. 

u said its a great HS program and most go on to play in college, mostly D1. They must be doing something right. Sons just a Fr. And your already not happy? Gonna be a long 4 yrs. 

let coaches be in control, remember you chose this school, and see how it goes next Spring/Summer w him playing on two diff teams. He'll have a yr of conditioning by then and will be taller/stronger as u predict. 

Just curious, 7.4 is a bit slow, what's he doing to reach the 6.8 you predict he can be? 

A lot can happen in 4 yrs,  Developing son for next level  is a work in progress, good luck. Sounds like he has good opportunities to succeed. 

Thanks. In August he started working once per week with a speed/track coach. Some of the improvement will come from better starts, some from maturing, getting stronger, and working on speed.

 

One clarification, though: 7.4 is not slow for 14, at least not if it is accurately timed. On the PG website the current average for the class of 2019 is 7.76, and a 7.4 is around the 70th-75th percentile. For the class of 2016, the current average is 7.35. So on average the seniors are .4 seconds faster than the freshman. Individual results will vary, but I'd expect most seniors are noticeably faster than they were as freshmen.

D 2020dad
Originally Posted by roothog66:

       

One problem comes with the perception that many coaches have that simply slowing down velocity will automatically equal improved control. It's never been my experience that this is true. It also doesn't seem, from what you've posted, that his control is so bad as to have noticeably affected his production. Throwing high seventies and having a coach preach slowing down for control rings odd to me. As to the "problem" of falling of towards first; I've never seen it as a problem for a righty. Trying to correct it seems to be addressing a non-problem that will cause more harm than good. However, it is your son who will have to read the situation and decide whether adjusting as his HS coach wants is necessary if he is to see mound time.


       
I think the issue Root is when is he 'falling'?  If as part of the follow through who cares.  But if he is opening early and LANDING toward first then big problem.
D 2019Dad10,000+ posts
Originally Posted by 2020dad:
Originally Posted by roothog66:

       

One problem comes with the perception that many coaches have that simply slowing down velocity will automatically equal improved control. It's never been my experience that this is true. It also doesn't seem, from what you've posted, that his control is so bad as to have noticeably affected his production. Throwing high seventies and having a coach preach slowing down for control rings odd to me. As to the "problem" of falling of towards first; I've never seen it as a problem for a righty. Trying to correct it seems to be addressing a non-problem that will cause more harm than good. However, it is your son who will have to read the situation and decide whether adjusting as his HS coach wants is necessary if he is to see mound time.


       
I think the issue Root is when is he 'falling'?  If as part of the follow through who cares.  But if he is opening early and LANDING toward first then big problem.

Follow-through. If anything, he has a tendency to land slightly in the other direction.

D 2020dad
Originally Posted by 2019Dad:

       
Originally Posted by 2020dad:
Originally Posted by roothog66:

       

One problem comes with the perception that many coaches have that simply slowing down velocity will automatically equal improved control. It's never been my experience that this is true. It also doesn't seem, from what you've posted, that his control is so bad as to have noticeably affected his production. Throwing high seventies and having a coach preach slowing down for control rings odd to me. As to the "problem" of falling of towards first; I've never seen it as a problem for a righty. Trying to correct it seems to be addressing a non-problem that will cause more harm than good. However, it is your son who will have to read the situation and decide whether adjusting as his HS coach wants is necessary if he is to see mound time.


       
I think the issue Root is when is he 'falling'?  If as part of the follow through who cares.  But if he is opening early and LANDING toward first then big problem.

Follow-through. If anything, he has a tendency to land slightly in the other direction.


       
Then nobody should care.  And again we all have to realize while hitting is a cookie cutter thing (once the actual swing starts) pitching is not.  There are many ways to succeed as a pitcher.  Worst thing to do is try to make them all look the same.
bballmanbballman10,000+ posts

I don't have a huge problem with a pitcher falling off some to the glove side.  However, it has to be for the right reasons.  If momentum is TRULY carrying him off as you say, then ok.  I'm not sure 77 mph is enough momentum to truly carry him off though.  Gibson and Pedro both threw upper 90's and that is enough momentum to carry someone off.  

 

With that said, I'm not sure the old garbage can trick is the right way to go about the change.  One of the things that will often carry a pitcher off to the glove side is the front side opening up too early and the momentum of the pitcher actually becomes too rotational and does not allow all the pitcher's momentum carry him towards the plate.  The other thing that happens is opening up too early will cause arm drag, which is detrimental to the shoulder and elbow.  If you watch the videos of Gibson and Pedro, you will see that both of them keep the front shoulder closed for a long time.  If you watch Pedro, his glove remains close to his body all the way thru his delivery.  With Gibson, his glove remains close to his body until after his throwing arm comes thru, then it swings wildly, carrying his body towards 1st base.  Point is, both of them keep the front shoulder closed as long as possible in order to increase hip/shoulder separation, which creates torque which increases velocity.

 

Like I said in the beginning, I don't have a big problem with falling off.  As long it is for the right reasons.  There is nothing wrong with striving to finish in a fielding position.  All the mechanics that go along with that are beneficial.  If momentum carries you off, fine.  Just make sure you're son's mechanics leading up to the falling off are solid.  Maybe his current mechanics are preventing him from throwing harder.  If his momentum is more towards 1st base during his delivery, it could be robbing some mph's.  The fall shouldn't come until after the ball is released.  Until then, all momentum should be directly towards the plate.

 

Without seeing your son actually throw, it is hard to say whether his falling off is good or bad.  Could be either.

TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
Originally Posted by 2019Dad:
Originally Posted by Scott Munroe:
Does your boy fall off like Kershaw, Sale and Fulmer?

Yes! And Pedro, Gibson, and too many MLB pitchers to count. The HS pitching coach is looking for something like Maddux -- perfect fielding position after throwing. Not that there is anything wrong with that, either. I don't think there is one-size-fits-all.

There is a method to the madness.  Young pitcher's should be taught to land a specific way to protect themselves.  Maddux's mechanics should be the goal.  Nothing wrong with learning while you are young. The younger the better.

I am trying to figure out exactly what your issue is?

Was your son recruited to attend a specific HS?

Last edited by TPM
D 2019Dad10,000+ posts
Originally Posted by TPM:
Originally Posted by 2019Dad:
Originally Posted by Scott Munroe:
Does your boy fall off like Kershaw, Sale and Fulmer?

Yes! And Pedro, Gibson, and too many MLB pitchers to count. The HS pitching coach is looking for something like Maddux -- perfect fielding position after throwing. Not that there is anything wrong with that, either. I don't think there is one-size-fits-all.

There is a method to the madness.  Yong pitcher's should be taught to land a specific way to protect themselves.  Maddux's mechanics should be the goal.  Nothing wrong with learning while you are young. The younger the better.

I am trying to figure out exactly what your issue is?

Was your son recruited to attend a specific HS?

No.

 

He is struggling with changing the way he's pitched, and, even more so, changing his mindset. Essentially, velocity first, then develop command as you mature . . . or command first, then develop velocity at a later point. He's had the former in mind (and both his velocity and command have been getting better as he moved up from 12 to 13 to 14) and his pitching coach is taking the latter approach.

P PGStaff10,000+ posts

Wonder how much better Bob Gibson might have been if they just corrected all the flaws and cleaned up his mechanics.

 

It always bothers me when the natural ability is disregarded in the interest of improving mechanics. Nobody ever taught Bob Feller how to throw a baseball. He spent hours out behind the barn and threw the ball the way his body told him he could best throw it.

 

 

 

infielddadinfielddad10,000+ posts

". By way of example, a pitcher throwing 84 with absolute pinpoint command (say, averaging 1 or 2 walks per 9 innings) is likely worth more to his high school team that a pitcher throwing 89 with decent but not great command (say, averaging 4 walks per 9 innings). OTOH, the latter kid is often going to be more attractive to colleges."

 

I wonder if this is true.  I have watched many college teams in Northern CA and elsewhere and bases on balls get guys pulled, not more time on the mound. The worst I ever saw was Pat Murphy of ASU at Sunken Diamond. On the Sunday game of 3, he clearly was over the top with free bases given up the previous 2 game. 

The very first Stanford hitter was walked. Murphy pulled his starter.  He then proceeded to pull every pitcher who walked a batter for the next 4 innings, until he had no one left.

Giving up 4-5 bases on balls means a pitcher is also likely going deeper into counts with good HS and college hitters and having many, many more high stress innings.  Giving up 4-5 bases on balls can often mean a good HS team will turn those into 2-3 runs.

Some college coaching staffs use "free" bases as a way of measuring the success of their offense and the negatives for their pitching staff.

Being "attractive" to  colleges and "earning" innings once you get there are very different animals.  Making choices for a HS freshman pitcher based on  your current views on his being attractive to colleges 4-5 years out  seems very problematic.

 

 

 

Last edited by infielddad
bballmanbballman10,000+ posts
Originally Posted by PGStaff:

Wonder how much better Bob Gibson might have been if they just corrected all the flaws and cleaned up his mechanics.

 

It always bothers me when the natural ability is disregarded in the interest of improving mechanics. Nobody ever taught Bob Feller how to throw a baseball. He spent hours out behind the barn and threw the ball the way his body told him he could best throw it.

 

 

 

I'm always right with you on everything PG, but it sounds to me like you are shunning pitching instruction.  

 

I think if this player was 14 and throwing 85 or 86, leave him alone.  The fact is, he's 14, a decent physical size and only throwing 75-76 and his command is not all that great...  I would say there is room for improvement.  Not to mention analysis of mechanics has come a long way from the 1960's.  There are many things that could improve the chances of a healthy arm by improvement of mechanics.

 

I wouldn't do anything to improve Bob Gibson's mechanics...  However, this kid is not Bob Gibson (no disrespect 2019Dad).

 

I think before we say whether the changes the HS coaches are suggesting are good or bad, it would be good to see a little video of this player.

 

2019Dad, sometimes PCs like to slow things down a little to make sure mechanics are good.  It is easier to throw under control, with good mechanics when you are throwing 80% to 85% than it is while throwing 100%.  Once the mechanics are established, go ahead and throw all out.  There is a time and place for everthing.

TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
Originally Posted by PGStaff:

Wonder how much better Bob Gibson might have been if they just corrected all the flaws and cleaned up his mechanics.

 

It always bothers me when the natural ability is disregarded in the interest of improving mechanics. Nobody ever taught Bob Feller how to throw a baseball. He spent hours out behind the barn and threw the ball the way his body told him he could best throw it.

 

 

 

While I agree, they didn't pitch in an era where the exit speed off the bat was almost triple digits and the hitters have the strength like they have today. 

I don't think landing in a defensive position is a bad thing.  

D 2019Dad10,000+ posts
Thanks for all of the input. If I could summarize, it seems the majority would choose option (1) in the original post, and seems comfortable with the idea that developing command first, then velocity later, is the way to go (apparently, I'm in the minority on that topic). A minority thinks that it may be overcoaching, or, at least, it's hard to tell without seeing video. No one thinks he should avoid the potential conflict and just focus on being a position player.
Last edited by 2019Dad
bballmanbballman10,000+ posts

2019, there is a big difference between "changing mechanics" and "tweaking" mechanics.  Everyone needs a tweaking now and then.  I think most here are saying they don't see much wrong with some falling off.  

 

I don't believe that working on mechanics and doing the things to increase your chances of finishing in a fielding position will be detrimental to velocity.  It might even help improve velocity - as well as command.  When I think about "changing mechanics", I think of a change in arm slot.  I don't think that is a good thing.  

 

I would view what the HS coaches are trying to do as "tweaking" his mechanics.  Take what you think will work and disregard what you think won't.  Sounds like your son has a pitching coach.  Ask him about what the HS coaches are saying.  No reason to not pitch for the HS at all for sure...

 

There's no question your son needs to improve with both his velocity as well as his command.  Nothing wrong with hearing some new ideas on how to do that.

 

JMO.

D 2020dad
Originally Posted by TPM:

       
Originally Posted by PGStaff:

Wonder how much better Bob Gibson might have been if they just corrected all the flaws and cleaned up his mechanics.

 

It always bothers me when the natural ability is disregarded in the interest of improving mechanics. Nobody ever taught Bob Feller how to throw a baseball. He spent hours out behind the barn and threw the ball the way his body told him he could best throw it.

 

 

 

While I agree, they didn't pitch in an era where the exit speed off the bat was almost triple digits and the hitters have the strength like they have today. 

I don't think landing in a defensive position is a bad thing.  


       
Actually exit velocities were well over 100 even then.  While they were not measured we know this from the monsterous distance achieved by guys like mantle, howard and killebrew to name a few.  There are more today however I grant you that.  Not a big fan of the fielding position thing.
D 2020dad
Originally Posted by 2019Dad:

       
Thanks for all of the input. If I could summarize, it seems the majority would choose option (1) in the original post, and seems comfortable with the idea that developing command first, then velocity later, is the way to go (apparently, I'm in the minority on that topic). A minority thinks that it may be overcoaching, or, at least, it's hard to tell without seeing video. No one thinks he should avoid the potential conflict and just focus on being a position player.

       
Not so fast 2019!  I have extremely strong feelings on this and many many pitching experts do as well.  Always, always velocity first.  And as I believe somebody mentioned (maybe you) the control seems to improve at the same time.  Bottom line good mechanics are needed for velocity and control.  You don't need to sacrifIce one for the other.  If you slow down when will you speed up again?  Now you have to adjust your mechanics particularly your release point to accommodate a more aggressive appr I ach to velocity.  Bad idea.  Tell him to let it rip!
D 2020dad
P.S. while we would all like our 14yo to throw harder than 74 lets not be so fast to call that slow.  It may not have you on track for cooperstown but its not far off the pace for a kid who with a little improvement can make a run at a college career.  If my son falls short of his goals next year and is throwing 74 I certainly will not tell him its time to hang it up.  Nor will I tell him he needs to completely change what he is doing.  And as the dad of a big kid I have to remind you that they are still kids.  That size will benefit them more when they get their big boy muscles and coordination.
roothog66roothog6610,000+ posts

I hope it wasn't assumed that I was saying mid-70's is slow. For a high school freshman it's average-to-slightly-above-average. However, it certainly isn't the type of velocity that should make a coach think he needs to slow down to 69 or 70 to effectuate better control. I would also say that the OP cites an approximate 60% strike rate and stats that didn't indicate an abnormal number of walks.

PS Pitching student500+ posts

I dont know how your kid throws or the coach, so take this with a grain of salt. Command and velocity is not a one or the other choice. They can be developed at the same time. Long toss can certainly develope velocity by improving arm speed/strength, but it also gives player feedback for where his ball is going and helps improve proprioception. The idea that it is one or the other frustrates me. 

SM Scott Munroe1,000+ posts
Originally Posted by 2019Dad:

       
Originally Posted by Scott Munroe:
Does your boy fall off like Kershaw, Sale and Fulmer?
Yes! And Pedro, Gibson, and too many MLB pitchers to count. The HS pitching coach is looking for something like Maddux -- perfect fielding position after throwing. Not that there is anything wrong with that, either. I don't think there is one-size-fits-all.

       


I have a 2019 also....going through the same thing you are. I call it Old School vs. New School. Which way is better....I do not know. What I do know is my son was a Command and Control guy who landed in the fielding position until I took him to the ARMory in Brandon, Florida (Florida's version of the Texas Baseball Ranch).

They took him off the balance point and landing in the fielding position....after 4  months he went from 72-73 mph to 76-81 mph and has not thrown a four seam fast ball yet. Plus, he Now can reach his 80 pitch limit without feeling sore the next day.

My son is 5' 10" 185 LHP  Freshman. This change in pitching style has opened doors of opportunity that were just not available before.

Bottom line is both styles of Pitching worked for my son, but he wants to play baseball at a high level D1 eventually and from what I have read and heard there is a minimum velocity they are looking for.

Best of luck to you and your son!
Last edited by Scott Munroe
D 2020dad
Originally Posted by roothog66:

       

I hope it wasn't assumed that I was saying mid-70's is slow. For a high school freshman it's average-to-slightly-above-average. However, it certainly isn't the type of velocity that should make a coach think he needs to slow down to 69 or 70 to effectuate better control. I would also say that the OP cites an approximate 60% strike rate and stats that didn't indicate an abnormal number of walks.


       
But also remember a 2019 hasn't pitched his freshman season yet.  74 is from 14u ball.  Might be closer to 80 his freshman year.  Now we are directionally correct.
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