Notre Dame Football

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Originally posted by RJM:
1) The decision Kelly and Notre Dame made to strip Cincinnati of their coaching staff (Kelly took all his key assistants with him) before their biggest game in history is indecent. I don't want to hear about recruiting. Cincinnati's season isn't over.

I believe Kelly offered to coach Cincinnati's bowl game and it was Cincy that decided he wouldn't. Am I wrong?

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2) I doubt few not involved with Notre Dame would disagree with the ethics and morality of the decision. It's about recruiting. Usually it's Nore Dame fans who try to define morality.

I knew this was coming...the old "everybody agrees..." argument. This is usually made when one doesn't really know the stats and decides that he and those who think like him are the majority.

This is then followed by a crass generalization beginning with "usually" that is about as accurate as the first statement.

Even freshman debaters learn quickly not to rely on these types of arguments.

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3) It's not right. But it's disgusting when it interferes with the best season in Cincinnati's history. Miami and Alabama have never attempted to claim the high moral ground. I don't see a Touchdown Jesus on their campus.

Again, it's not right according to whom? You? The NCAA? Some religous tract?

"Immoral" and "unethical" are strong words with well defined meanings. I could agree that in one's opinion the action could be so considered, but to make a universal claim as a statement of fact is quite a leap.

This is similar to calling a coach a liar. I never do it. It's a strong word with harsh implications. Even when I suspect a coach may be lying to me, I choose to refer to him as being mistaken, incorrect or forgetful.

Oh, and ND is a Christian school. The image of Christ was not intended to be "Touchdown" Jesus. That reference started as a joke and remains so to those who understand its history. Those who don't understand the history of it choose to accept the joke as reality. It's a pity.

I never heard ND, in this entire affair, justify their actions by putting themselves above anyone. And you're correct, neither did Miami, Alabama nor any other college of which I am aware.

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The nice thing is chances are nothing will change with Notre Dame football on the field. Kelly is just the new false messiah.

Another another religious dig. Very nice.

First, take your religious card and stuff it where the sun doesn't shine. I'm Jewish. I've seen enough religious prejudice in my life. I just don't wear it like a chip on my shoulder 99% of the time like you're trying to do now. I don't find myself to be superior for being a descendant of King David. I know plenty of Notre Dame alumus and parents who think they're better than others due to their affiliation with the school. I meant messiah in terms of leading Notre Dame to the football holy land (national championship).

Blather on all you want. A lot of people don't like Notre Dame. It's not about being anti-winner. It's about the attitude Notre Dame, it's alumnus and their fans portray. None of you will ever get it. It's so obnoxious and you can't even see it because Notre Dame people genuinely believe their superiority.

So, now, Butch Jones is leaving Central Michigan (who plays Troy in the Jan 6 GMAC Bowl) to take the job at Cincinnati (who plays Florida Jan 1 in the Sugar Bowl) to replace Brian Kelly, whom he replaced at Central Michigan when Kelly went to UC.

I'm not really a Notre Dame fan, but sure did like that movie... "Rudy"!

I do have some friends who are die hard Irish fans. (doesn't everyone?) They kind of remind me of Packer fans. In fact, some of them are Packer fans!

The tradition at Notre Dame is something special. It's cool when the only goal or satisfaction is to win the National Championship. Not many programs that think that big.

Guess I thought Kelly could have handled things a bit differently. I'm sure he had his reasons. I'm just glad they didn't grab the Iowa coach.

Maybe Kelly was concerned how he might be regarded after that bowl game against Florida.

Notre Dame was terrible on defense... Very good on offense! That was why they got rid of thje coach.

I know Cincinnati won all there games, but they sure didn't do it by being a great defensive team.

The last 4 games Cincy gave up a 146 points.
The last 4 games Notre Dame gave up 111 points. ND was 0-4, Cincy was 4-0

Two teams played both Cincy and ND in those last 4 games. U Conn lost to Cincy 47-45. Pitt lost 45-44.
U Conn beat ND in 33-30 in 2 overtimes. Pitt beat ND 27-22. Pitt and U Conn scored 52 points in 2 games plus two overtimes wins against ND. Pitt and U Conn scored 89 points in two loses to Cincy.

In the other two games Cincy played Illinois while giving up 36 to arguably the worst team in the Big10. Illinois 0 points against Ohio State. Cincy beat West Virginia 24-21.

Notre Dame's other two games were against Stanford (45-38 loss) and Navy (23-21 loss)

Doesn't it seem like Florida will win the Sugar Bowl be the 40 point rule?

This all tells me that while there's no question that Cincinnati was by far the better team with by far the best record... They didn't really appear to be any better than Notre Dame on defense. It's too bad they didn't play each other, score might have been 100 to 94.

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Originally posted by PGStaff:
I'm not really a Notre Dame fan, but sure did like that movie... "Rudy"!

Surely, we can all agree on that!

Cleveland Dad...

Rudy gets a thumbs up from me!

Yeah, and we all hated Ara Pareseghian!

Change for the sake of change is what I see in this hire. Yes Kelly is the next new hot thing in the coaching ranks. But recruiting and winning at ND is a whole different animal than recruiting and winning at Cincy. ND's offense was top tier. Their defense was pathetic and was the reason they were out looking for a new coach. Their lack of speed and athletes on defense was obvious. If you look at UF , Florida , Texas , Alabama , just take a look at their defense and the depth on defense. Tremendous speed all over the field with outstanding athletes who all can run with great size.

Its just a total different era in college football. These top tier high school football players would rather play for the USC's LSU's Bama's Florida's Oregon's of the college world than ND. ND can not get the number's of these kids in school that these other top programs can get in to school. None of these 16 17 18 year old kids know who the Gipper is folks. Their past glory days were well before these young players of today were even born or even thought about. In other words the only people who believe or think of ND as a football power are forty and fifty years old are ND fans and or alumni.

ND was on top for many years. So was Army when they were winning National Championships and Heisman trophies. The fact is no coach can solve the problem of why they are no longer a national power. Unless ND is willing to allow "alot" of kids to get in school to play football that otherwise could not get in. Unless ND is willing to sell its reputation to the Devil in order to regain its glory days. Nothing has changed with this coaching hire.

What surprises me is the point that PG brought up. They hired an offensive guru. A guy that outscores his opponents. If you have some outstanding skill guys and you can really scheme well you can score. But if you dont have the studs on defense you can not win big in college football. And you better have alot of them.

The timing of the hire is not ND's fault imo. This happens all the time in college football. If they wanted to portray themselves as being above all of this then dont pursue him until after the bowl game and take your lumps what ever they may be for waiting. In other words take the high ground. What they proved is they are no different than anyother college program. The problem is they want everyone to believe they are.

The fact is ND its not the 50's or 60's or even 70's anymore. Everything has changed. Except you ND. So either be the Stanford Northwestern and hope to be good every once in awhile or continue to believe you are still elite in the college football world and change coaches every five years.

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Blather on all you want. A lot of people don't like Notre Dame. It's not about being anti-winner. It's about the attitude Notre Dame, it's alumnus and their fans portray. None of you will ever get it. It's so obnoxious and you can't even see it because Notre Dame people genuinely believe their superiority.

RJM, tough week at work or are you like this on purpose?
BTW, I checked in the thread about supporting the HSBBW. I didn't see you post in that one...and that may be the only one you didn't.
Seems like Julie deserves your support, at least in my opinion.
So, now to your points:
I know a number of Notre Dame grads.
Among them is a former QB, who walked on at #8 in the depth chart. Stuck with it and ended up starting some games his senior year. He is very proud of his alma mater. But he is also one of the nicest young men I know. He will now be graduating from the MBA program at Stanford and moving to NYC where he was one of the first hires by a multi-national powerhouse.
Still recognizes he puts his pants on one leg at a time. Our group of frieds loves to tease him about being a Golden Domer. My son the DIII kid and Pat, the ND QB have one great relationship. For Halloween, our son dressed up as a 1961 Columbia football player as a tribute to our good friend, and the President of their Board of Trustees. The ND kid dressed up as a baseball player..our son.
Another grad and good friend is Ted Robinson, the announcer. Great, great guy. Loves ND. Met his wife there. His children attended and one tried to walk on in baseball. Great family just like so many families.
I cannot imagine two better alums from ND and two nicer, more generous, bright, articulate and friendly people than these two, and they are just 2 examples.
I am not sure why you find it so appealing to lump "us" or a "lot of people" with your feelings about ND and its alums. Personally, I could say you have a lot of "arrogance" yourself thinking you "speak" for a "lot of people" but I won't and don't feel you do.
People are people whether they graduate from ND, Stanford or the University of Montana, or don't graduate from anywhere.
Some are arrogant, some are the best people you can find.
Maybe lumping and categorizing works for you.
But, to be honest, it isn't very appealing.
Just to make things accurate going forward, if you want to excoriate ND and its alums for reasons personal to you, excoriate all you want.
From where I sit, I would ask that you not try and speak for anyone other than yourself.

Coach May,

Actually ND has been close to the top in recent years.

2005 they were 9-2 and lost to Ohio State in the Fiesta Bowl. Ohio State played in three recent national championships and won it all in 2002.

Their two loses were in overtime to Michigan State and a 34-31 loss to USC. USC won two national championships and played in a couple of others in the 2000s.

In 2006 they were 10-1 (losing to Michigan) before losing to USC and then LSU in the Sugar Bowl. LSU was a national champs in the 2000s.

Those are two BCS bowls in back to back years and only a few years ago.

Also Notre Dame was 11-1 under Lou holtz in 1993 and 12-1 in 89. And they actually won the national championship in 88.

Notre Dame might be down, but I'd be surprised if they stay down forever. They sure lost a lot of close games the past two years.

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Originally posted by ClevelandDad:

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
I'm not really a Notre Dame fan, but sure did like that movie... "Rudy"!

Surely, we can all agree on that!

Wait, wait, wait wait. Obviously there was a "hanging chad" problem when my vote was recieved. That movie put me to sleep.

I have heard that the "real" Rudy was not that well liked at ND and was not at all what the movie depicted---just what I was told

And you have to go and ruin my whole theory by bringing up little things like facts!

Maybe it just seems like a long time? You know when you start getting old your memory just aint what it used to be.

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Originally posted by Coach_May:
And you have to go and ruin my whole theory by bringing up little things like facts!

Maybe it just seems like a long time? You know when you start getting old your memory just aint what it used to be.

Coach, you're safe. PG left out "The Rest of the Story." It can be summarized in two parts. First, as was typical until (finally!) this year, ND was grossly overrated those years. Second, they didn't just lose those BSC bowl games in which they did not belong in the first place, they were SLAUGHTERED!! I believe the streak of bowl losses got up to 9 before they travelled halfway around the world last year to beat up on a Hawaii team that should be playing 1-AA.

So I don't think you can really characterize them as "close to the top" even then.

I have some good friends who are ND alums. I can't lump all alums together as obnoxious. But I CAN lump all ND football fans together in that category--even my friends on Saturdays in the fall.

Now it's time to focus on Northwestern's impending upset of Auburn!

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Now it's time to focus on Northwestern's impending upset of Auburn!

When NW upset WI this year a reporter asked why it looked like NW knew what what play was coming and the UW player said matter-a-factly "They're a lot smarter than us"

I will pulling for NW. I became a fan a few years back when they had that great run. There are certain programs I have always pulled for when they are not playing my fav team. Stanford has always been one as well. I was a big Jim Plunkett fan growing up. And I know if your playing at Stanford you are also a student athlete and not a hired gun.

After watching that 30/30 episode on ESPN about the U and then the program done by ESPN on FSU and its scandal its becoming increasingly harder for me to pull for some of these programs. Maybe we need two divisions. Those that do it with true student athletes and those that dont.

Just when you think the fire is out a hidden ember flares up and the flames rage again.

I'm laying odds on which thread ends first, this one or the climate change one.

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Originally posted by Coach_May:
I will pulling for NW. I became a fan a few years back when they had that great run.

lol, Coach May, how about their not so great run? A fellow from my HS went to Northwestern in 1977. Poor guy wound up on ESPN's 'third worst college football team of all time'.

trivia- who was the coach of that Northwestern team?

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I checked in the thread about supporting the HSBBW. I didn't see you post in that one...and that may be the only one you didn't.

Aren't we smug this week! I didn't realize I had to lay claim to my donation. I just did it, like last time there was a need.

Thanks for making the donation.
Julie won't say it, but it means a lot.
Actually, it means a lot to everyone. Being a member of this site, I am one of them.
Nothing smug about it.
Just thought it would be a good place we might look to find some balance and agreement this week.

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Originally posted by RJM:

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By the way people hate ND for the same reasons they hate the Cowboys, Steelers, Yankees, and Lakers. Funny how nobody ever seems to hate someone like Duke Football.

Not true. Those other teams win. People don't like Notre Dame over their attitude of entitlement and thinking they're as successful as those other teams. Notre Dame's success is from a past era and their fans are still trying to live off it like it's happening now.

HAHA yeah but I doubt many of us (and yes that includes me) ND haters just started watching college football. Most new college football fans don't care one way or another about ND. Those of us that do have strong feeling about them, good or bad, developed those feelings years ago.

I do have to agree with PG though, IMO some of Coach Kelly's decision to leave may have had something to do with avoiding the 50 point spanking Cinncy is about to get.

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And you have to go and ruin my whole theory by bringing up little things like facts!

Maybe it just seems like a long time? You know when you start getting old your memory just aint what it used to be.

I can't remember if my memory was any better when I was younger.

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Coach, you're safe. PG left out "The Rest of the Story." It can be summarized in two parts. First, as was typical until (finally!) this year, ND was grossly overrated those years. Second, they didn't just lose those BSC bowl games in which they did not belong in the first place, they were SLAUGHTERED!!

And you have to go and ruin my whole theory by bringing up little things like facts!

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Coach Scotty quote:
I do have to agree with PG though, IMO some of Coach Kelly's decision to leave may have had something to do with avoiding the 50 point spanking Cinncy is about to get.

Wouldn't Cinncy be in a win/win situation by throwing Kelly off campus. If they win the game they can say he was expendable, if they lose they can blame it turmoil initiated in South Bend.

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Originally posted by fillsfan:
Just when you think the fire is out a hidden ember flares up and the flames rage again.

I'm laying odds on which thread ends first, this one or the climate change one.

S

There's a global warming thread? Where?? I want in on that one too!!!

Do not see any global warming here in the Northeast

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Originally posted by rz1:

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Coach Scotty quote:
I do have to agree with PG though, IMO some of Coach Kelly's decision to leave may have had something to do with avoiding the 50 point spanking Cinncy is about to get.

Wouldn't Cinncy be in a win/win situation by throwing Kelly off campus. If they win the game they can say he was expendable, if they lose they can blame it turmoil initiated in South Bend.

Yeah good point.