Were it not for Family demands, he would have remained on his HS team also.
I think they go hand in hand.
Question.
Could the higher incidences of TJ surgery be from the fact that many kids play other positions when not pitching? They will actually come off the mound and go to another position immediately. I see a lot of kids catch when not pitching or play ss or third, positions where ther is a lot of throwing. In 10th and 11th my son only pitched, but as a senior he played at 1B, but NOT in the same game.
Any HS coach, especially one who is employed by the board of education wouldn't dare throw a kid off the team, without having to answer to the AD or principal.
because his parents said enough was enough.
Could the higher incidences of TJ surgery be from the fact that many kids play other positions when not pitching? They will actually come off the mound and go to another position immediately. I see a lot of kids catch when not pitching or play ss or third, positions where ther is a lot of throwing. In 10th and 11th my son only pitched, but as a senior he played at 1B, but NOT in the same game.
Any HS coach, especially one who is employed by the board of education wouldn't dare throw a kid off the team, without having to answer to the AD or principal.
because his parents said enough was enough.
quote:
Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:
Any HS coach, especially one who is employed by the board of education wouldn't dare throw a kid off the team, without having to answer to the AD or principal.
because his parents said enough was enough.
I don't want to argue this. However, the instant that parent walked into that dugout and grabbed his son and removed him, I believe many school boards would support the coach in removing that player. Otherwise, every parent in that district that disagreed with anything that the coach did would be justified in walking on the field to do as they wish. JMHO!
My son recently pulled a lower back muscle and was seeing a physical therapist. He said he attends baseball conferences and is told kids need 8 weeks where they don't pick up a ball, they can lift, run or anything else that will improve their onfield performance, just no baseball. He also said they asked MLB players at what age would they let their own kid start throwing curve balls and the average age was 17. My 10 year old has recently played against a pitcher who threw over 50 curve balls in a game and practiced with a team whose 10 year old pitchers were throwing curve balls. Dad didn't let our 15 year old pitch in a game until 12/13 and even then not very often. Freshman year coach wants to pitch him back to back games, 3 days rest but other pitchers available. Son tells coach the day before he doesn't want to pitch and coach says OK. Coach pitches him 4 innings and pulls him because he sees dad unhappy. Coach wanted to win and son was his best pitcher. At that age, winning shouldn't matter since developing only one pitcher won't yield a winning team. Everyones opinion will be different because it's based on their life experiences, what they've read, what their coaches and mentors have taught them and even what they have read on this forum. My husband believes in the wait until older approach and it's worked for our 15 year old, it may not for our 12 or 10 year old and we'll have to adjust. There is no perfect answer for every kid, unfortunately.
quote:
Were it not for Family demands, he would have remained on his HS team also.
I think they go hand in hand.
It may seem that way from your point of view.
I know the kid and his father. My son played that summer with the boy. The hs incident had no effect on the draft. Signability was the issue.
Now asking if they regeret it now? That is a different question.
The kid is at a top juco now and I would think has a chance to be drafted pretty high in next June's draft...if not, he is supposedly going to go to another Big12 school next year whose head coach is a former high profile pitching coach who had recruited him out of high school. Either way he goes, things should work out very well for him. 
Heres my take on all this over throwing stuff and pitch count discussions. Back in the day so to speak kids that played baseball would throw all the time. There arms were conditioned to throw. When I was a kid we all played all the time. In the yard we would throw football baseball anything we could get our hands on. Then we would go to practice and throw. When a kid took the hill as long as he was getting kids out he stayed on the hill. I can't remember at anytime seeing a kid pulled for a pitch count. He got pulled because he was getting shelled or he couldnt throw strikes. I hardly ever recall anyone on my teams complaining of a sore arm. But them again we were not sitting on our butts all day playing playstation or watching tv. We worked in the tobacco fields and then we played untill it got dark. MOMS USED TO HAVE TO MAKE THERE KIDS COME INSIDE NOW THEY HAVE TO MAKE THEM GO OUTSIDE. The kids that I have coached that work around the house and throw all the time never complain of a sore arm. The ones that are physically inactive that decide to pick it up whenever they feel like it constantly complain of sore arms. Im not advocating that a kid throw 140 pitches at all. But what I am saying is you do what you are conditioned to do. Alot of kids today are conditioned mentally and physically to hit a certain point and then quit. Then they go out there one day and for whatever reason are pushed past that point and the body cant handle it and of course their mind cant because they have been told that they can only throw a certain amount of pitches and they are done.
b25, and coach may,
good post
#1 i agree that if a parent pulled a kid out of the dugout and him not showing up the next day at practice would probably be supported by the school board. granted 137 pitches for an EARLY game (maybe not at the end of the season)is high.
coach may you are right. i was a catcher that caught for 2-3 different teams each year, and i never had arm trouble
good post
#1 i agree that if a parent pulled a kid out of the dugout and him not showing up the next day at practice would probably be supported by the school board. granted 137 pitches for an EARLY game (maybe not at the end of the season)is high.
coach may you are right. i was a catcher that caught for 2-3 different teams each year, and i never had arm trouble
Sore arms just suddenly appear
KIDS DONT PLAY CATCH ENOUGH!!!!!
KIDS DONT PLAY CATCH ENOUGH!!!!!
I admit that dragging the kid off the mound would be a little extreme and in my first post I was kidding. My point is that if for some reason there seems to be an access of high pitch counts and a parent or player has concerns, they should not be afraid that if they talk to the coach their son will be pulled from the team. Any coach who does that needs to have a real good reason in doing so. Because a parent is a pain in the a$$ because they are concerned doesn't "cut" it.
In the beginning of the season my son's first start was 50 pitches, then second it was 90 and we had concerns and brought them to the coach and AD together. We had every right as parents to let them know how we felt, and the AD backed us up as it was a health issue to her. We compromised and it was a very good year. My son was already committed and getting ready for the draft, there was no way ANYONE was going to over use him. Also he was playing first and in no way would he go to first after the mound (as some do) and it happened once and the coach apologized and said it wouldn ever happen again.
We've had this discussion before on the website.
My son will be hitting his 19th birthday in a few weeks. He has been pitching since he was 7. In all of those years he had a little problem ONCE. I do not contribute it to the fact that he worked out (he was downright lazy in the work out area) or was in peak physical condition. He was blessed with a great pitchers body, lanky, long arms, long legs and huge calves and sound mechanics. There was no need to change that while growing leaps and bounds (and possibly creating damage) until the right time (which is now). He very very rarely threw a curve ball. It was frustrating when in a game the 14-15 year old pitchers were throwing them and getting them out, but he realizes now it was a waste for them to do that.
We have watched over him since he was little and seen lots of his friends who were very good pitchers never reach HS pitching because everyone thought they were so good, they kept them in longer than necessary, encouraged them to throw hard to get others out. Some even caught the next day after a game, or played third or ss. If they wanted my son to do that, then there was no pitching and one year he gave up the mound to catch, did not do both.
My son remained a top pitcher in the area where the ones they thought would be HS stars struggled in the end. We picked coaches carefully, whether it was the best team in the area or not. Over the past 2 years I would say he has averaged 12-15 pitches per inning, 9-10 this summer per inning and his comfort zone ends at 90 pitches, low 70's in IPs the last two HS years and the low 50's the first two. He was always the best pitcher on the team, but we didn't let anyone take advantage of that to win a game. He could have gone 140 in a game, but IT WAS NOT WORTH IT. Would we have done things differently if we felt he didn't have a furure after HS or college, probably not because as a young man we felt that no matter what he did later on, it was not worth surgery at any young age (we had seen too mauch of that).
NOT all coaches are created equally, therefore I stand by my original thought, no matter who is coaching, for parents to speak up, wake up if they have concerns. Don't be afraid of any coach. It is YOUR job to protect your son, no one else.
In the beginning of the season my son's first start was 50 pitches, then second it was 90 and we had concerns and brought them to the coach and AD together. We had every right as parents to let them know how we felt, and the AD backed us up as it was a health issue to her. We compromised and it was a very good year. My son was already committed and getting ready for the draft, there was no way ANYONE was going to over use him. Also he was playing first and in no way would he go to first after the mound (as some do) and it happened once and the coach apologized and said it wouldn ever happen again.
We've had this discussion before on the website.
My son will be hitting his 19th birthday in a few weeks. He has been pitching since he was 7. In all of those years he had a little problem ONCE. I do not contribute it to the fact that he worked out (he was downright lazy in the work out area) or was in peak physical condition. He was blessed with a great pitchers body, lanky, long arms, long legs and huge calves and sound mechanics. There was no need to change that while growing leaps and bounds (and possibly creating damage) until the right time (which is now). He very very rarely threw a curve ball. It was frustrating when in a game the 14-15 year old pitchers were throwing them and getting them out, but he realizes now it was a waste for them to do that.
We have watched over him since he was little and seen lots of his friends who were very good pitchers never reach HS pitching because everyone thought they were so good, they kept them in longer than necessary, encouraged them to throw hard to get others out. Some even caught the next day after a game, or played third or ss. If they wanted my son to do that, then there was no pitching and one year he gave up the mound to catch, did not do both.
My son remained a top pitcher in the area where the ones they thought would be HS stars struggled in the end. We picked coaches carefully, whether it was the best team in the area or not. Over the past 2 years I would say he has averaged 12-15 pitches per inning, 9-10 this summer per inning and his comfort zone ends at 90 pitches, low 70's in IPs the last two HS years and the low 50's the first two. He was always the best pitcher on the team, but we didn't let anyone take advantage of that to win a game. He could have gone 140 in a game, but IT WAS NOT WORTH IT. Would we have done things differently if we felt he didn't have a furure after HS or college, probably not because as a young man we felt that no matter what he did later on, it was not worth surgery at any young age (we had seen too mauch of that).
NOT all coaches are created equally, therefore I stand by my original thought, no matter who is coaching, for parents to speak up, wake up if they have concerns. Don't be afraid of any coach. It is YOUR job to protect your son, no one else.
If I were a parent and my son was a pitcher, I would make sure that I established a line of communication with the coach before my son ever threw that first pitch. I would also make my concerns known to the coach. Naturally, you have to be careful about how you do it. My child pitches and she was throwing in 107 heat index. We watched her and I became upset. Our coach did the right thing just after my blood pressure went up. However, I have a plan from now on. In our program, we have parent's meeting. We outline everything we can think of. We speak to parents and address how their child is to be used. Personally, I have never and will never throw a kid for that many pitches.
On a side note on this issue and the Dad coming into the dugout. I've been there in another sport. A parent came into the locker room during halftime of a basketball game. It turned into one of the worse experiences in my coaching career. I would say that a parent should avoid that at all cost.
On a side note on this issue and the Dad coming into the dugout. I've been there in another sport. A parent came into the locker room during halftime of a basketball game. It turned into one of the worse experiences in my coaching career. I would say that a parent should avoid that at all cost.
Speaking of a Dad going into the dugout......true story......What would you do?
Playing in a weekend tournament over Memorial Day. It's Sunday around 3:00p. Forecast for heavy rain, thunderstorms, possible tornado.
Game in the 4th inning. Clouds gather. Rain starts. Winds blow. Extreme lightening. Tornado sirens go off.
Umpires call the game.
Everyone leaves.......except our coach and he keeps the players in the duguout, a place they stay for about 45 minutes.....while it rains, blows, lightenings, and while tornados touch down in the greater metropolitan area.
Your son is in that dugout. Do you go get him?
Playing in a weekend tournament over Memorial Day. It's Sunday around 3:00p. Forecast for heavy rain, thunderstorms, possible tornado.
Game in the 4th inning. Clouds gather. Rain starts. Winds blow. Extreme lightening. Tornado sirens go off.
Umpires call the game.
Everyone leaves.......except our coach and he keeps the players in the duguout, a place they stay for about 45 minutes.....while it rains, blows, lightenings, and while tornados touch down in the greater metropolitan area.
Your son is in that dugout. Do you go get him?
Teacherman - You better believe it! But only after I try to calmly convince the coach as to why its a bad idea.
Teacherman, do you know if there is a reason he stayed in that dugout? What was the construction of the dugout? What was the weather like on the way back to the school? Do you know what the state law is in regards to this? Do you know the school's liablity clause and the requirements of the coaching staff to be in compliance with that?
Having said all of this, a parent is a parent and they have the final say. We ask that parents send Johnny to school with a letter anytime that they need to ride home with a parent from a game. The school's liablilty requires us to limit players from riding home with parents unless we have documentation. We present this is a parent's meeting. Naturally, you are bringing up a disaster and so...
Having said all of this, a parent is a parent and they have the final say. We ask that parents send Johnny to school with a letter anytime that they need to ride home with a parent from a game. The school's liablilty requires us to limit players from riding home with parents unless we have documentation. We present this is a parent's meeting. Naturally, you are bringing up a disaster and so...
parents going into the dugout to get their kid during a game. I guess what they say stick around long enough and you will see everything. years ago you never would have even thought any such a thing would happen. what has happened over the years where this is not a surprise anymore? Then you wonder why coaches leave.
Dad comes to get the kid and both are asked not to return EVER
The dugout is off limits no matter what !!!!
The dugout is off limits no matter what !!!!
Now the rest of the story.......
Wind blew the roof off the dugout and a flying piece of wood was implanted in a players thigh.
TR
How do you feel about keeping the kids in the dugout now? And not allowing a parent to come and get the kid?
Coach25
The reason he stayed in the dugout was to "bond" as a team. This was the first weekend of the summer season.
Wind blew the roof off the dugout and a flying piece of wood was implanted in a players thigh.
TR
How do you feel about keeping the kids in the dugout now? And not allowing a parent to come and get the kid?
Coach25
The reason he stayed in the dugout was to "bond" as a team. This was the first weekend of the summer season.
Following up on the teacherman/rshard etc...question:
What if a 60 foot tidal wave engulfs the field and the coach keeps the players in the dugout?
Or how about a team of hostile commandos storming the field and lobbing heavy artillery onto the field?
Or an invasion of really large carniverous ants?
Teacherman/rshard/etc... - what in god's name are you talking about?
What if a 60 foot tidal wave engulfs the field and the coach keeps the players in the dugout?
Or how about a team of hostile commandos storming the field and lobbing heavy artillery onto the field?
Or an invasion of really large carniverous ants?
Teacherman/rshard/etc... - what in god's name are you talking about?
quote:
Wind blew the roof off the dugout and a flying piece of wood was implanted in a players thigh.
OUCH! MOMMY!!
quote:
Originally posted by itsinthegame:
Following up on the teacherman/rshard etc...question:
What if a 60 foot tidal wave engulfs the field and the coach keeps the players in the dugout?
Or how about a team of hostile commandos storming the field and lobbing heavy artillery onto the field?
Or an invasion of really large carniverous ants?
Teacherman/rshard/etc... - what in god's name are you talking about?
Great one. As a parent, what I'm really concerned about is the cheerleaders practicing next to the field during the game and what the players are REALLY focusing on. 
Teacherman,
I would ask - politely of course - that the coach not tie my son to the flag pole.
BTW - How do you edit your posts so quickly.? LOL
I would ask - politely of course - that the coach not tie my son to the flag pole.
BTW - How do you edit your posts so quickly.? LOL
Teach - you sure that didnt happen in one of the Nintendo cyber baseball games?
I just checked back on this thread looking to see if there was any more ideas on pitch counts, and I see tornados and commandos. What has everyone been smoking?
What has everyone been smoking?
Teacherwhatever
I said parents are not allowed in the dugout EVER !!! YES !!!!
I did not even talk about taking them out of the dugout if a storm is nearing
You,as you and your cyberbrothers always do,--NEVER ANSWER A FREAKING QUESTION--just turn it all your way--is your work done yet ?????bluedoggies apparently isnt done yet--he came back to learn more from us old dawgs-- you should not close your eyes and ears to us older guys-- I think we read and understand better than you young guys who think you have all the answers but never coached beyond those kids still waiting for their first pimple !!!!
I said parents are not allowed in the dugout EVER !!! YES !!!!
I did not even talk about taking them out of the dugout if a storm is nearing
You,as you and your cyberbrothers always do,--NEVER ANSWER A FREAKING QUESTION--just turn it all your way--is your work done yet ?????bluedoggies apparently isnt done yet--he came back to learn more from us old dawgs-- you should not close your eyes and ears to us older guys-- I think we read and understand better than you young guys who think you have all the answers but never coached beyond those kids still waiting for their first pimple !!!!
bbscout - you must have missed the flying pieces of wood hurtling into players thighs.
Its all too much to keep up with. LOL
Its all too much to keep up with. LOL
[QUOTE]Originally posted by TRhit:
...I did not even talk about taking them out of the dugout if a storm is nearing...QUOTE]
Ok, so talk about it now.
...I did not even talk about taking them out of the dugout if a storm is nearing...QUOTE]
Ok, so talk about it now.
quote:
Originally posted by Teacherman:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by TRhit:
...I did not even talk about taking them out of the dugout if a storm is nearing...QUOTE]
Ok, so talk about it now.
I've got a better idea .... NO
quote:
Originally posted by Teacherman:
Now the rest of the story.......
Coach25
The reason he stayed in the dugout was to "bond" as a team. This was the first weekend of the summer season.
No excuse if that was his only reason. We have been to numerous safety training sessions and they say that the dugout is THE PLACE TO BE IN A STORM! Sure sometimes tragedies occur. That is why they are tragedies! I have been there and done that many times as far as getting caught in a storm I sure don't want them on a bus.
As far as my incident, the Dad came in and blindsided me. Hit me about 8 times before I could get ahold of him. I just couldn't hit him in front of his son. Besides, it didn't hurt much. IN NO CIRCUMSTANCE SHOULD A PARENT COME INTO THAT DUGOUT! I won't ever be caught off guard again. Will, you asked me in another post why I had so many rules. Now you know!
Scout
California Okra.
quote:
What has everyone been smoking?
California Okra.
quote:
Peruvian Banana Leaves...
I do not smoke
Teacherwhatever
Another question not an answer--- simple as that
BBSCOUT we are all fine-- light a candle for teacherwhater and his cyber clones---they need the help
Teacherwhatever
Another question not an answer--- simple as that
BBSCOUT we are all fine-- light a candle for teacherwhater and his cyber clones---they need the help
Teacherman/rshard/etc...
OK - another one - What if Godzilla was breathing fire on the outer layers of the dugout?
No fire and smoke inside the dugout - just a massive monster charring of the outside of the dugout?
Tough decision - I know.
OK - another one - What if Godzilla was breathing fire on the outer layers of the dugout?
No fire and smoke inside the dugout - just a massive monster charring of the outside of the dugout?
Tough decision - I know.
Now that we have finished - I think - with some fun and the Teacherman/rshard/etc... insanity - here's the original question:
posted October 04, 2004 09:59 PM
Poll Question:
Your son has made the varsity at the local HS as a sophomore. He's a 6 ft. 2 in. left-handed pitcher who already "sits" in the mid-80's. People tell you he has a real shot at playing college ball, maybe even pro ball.
Your HS has not won its league in 10 or more years. Your son is on the mound for the game that will decide it. Your son pitches a complete game victory, winning 5-4. But, he's thrown 140 pitches. He says he's fine. The coach is happy. Are you concerned? What do you do? Why? Why not?
Choices:
Do nothing. Once in a lifetime chance.
Congratulate the coach, express concern.
Tell the coach that this will not happen again.
Move your son to a different school.
Other. What?
posted October 04, 2004 09:59 PM
Poll Question:
Your son has made the varsity at the local HS as a sophomore. He's a 6 ft. 2 in. left-handed pitcher who already "sits" in the mid-80's. People tell you he has a real shot at playing college ball, maybe even pro ball.
Your HS has not won its league in 10 or more years. Your son is on the mound for the game that will decide it. Your son pitches a complete game victory, winning 5-4. But, he's thrown 140 pitches. He says he's fine. The coach is happy. Are you concerned? What do you do? Why? Why not?
Choices:
Do nothing. Once in a lifetime chance.
Congratulate the coach, express concern.
Tell the coach that this will not happen again.
Move your son to a different school.
Other. What?
Just do not know what the big deal is with this pitch count parent concern etc etc etc. I am probably going to get flak for this but sometimes parents should just stay out of the way. Let the coach do his job. i just can not believe some of the posts about parents talking to the coach about this and that and going into the dugout etc. etc. etc. i coached for a long time and never had anything closely resembling that. Had some pretty good pitchers who went on to play and be successful and one is presently playing professionally. Pitch count was never an issue. Was I just lucky.
Will - I don't know if you were lucky or not.
There's been a lot of press lately about the number of TJ surgeries. I've followed it a little, but not closely. Does anyone know of a study where the doctors tried to see if there was any kind of correlation between use/overuse and needing some type of arm surgery? Would be interesting to see if so.
Earlier in this thread I mentioned a 16-year old "field rat" (similar to the basketball phrase "gym rat") who was as close as I know to an old-time player...played the game all the time, threw all the time, great shape etc... He had TJ surgery yesterday...it went fine. I thought it was interesting, however, that the doctor said that the tendons were thicker than normal due to scarring from previous trauma...suggesting that he had some buildup of injury, not a single event. I've known this boy since he was about 9 years old. To my knowledge, he NEVER had any arm difficulties...so he most likely didn't know what was building.
Is there a clue in this?
There's been a lot of press lately about the number of TJ surgeries. I've followed it a little, but not closely. Does anyone know of a study where the doctors tried to see if there was any kind of correlation between use/overuse and needing some type of arm surgery? Would be interesting to see if so.
Earlier in this thread I mentioned a 16-year old "field rat" (similar to the basketball phrase "gym rat") who was as close as I know to an old-time player...played the game all the time, threw all the time, great shape etc... He had TJ surgery yesterday...it went fine. I thought it was interesting, however, that the doctor said that the tendons were thicker than normal due to scarring from previous trauma...suggesting that he had some buildup of injury, not a single event. I've known this boy since he was about 9 years old. To my knowledge, he NEVER had any arm difficulties...so he most likely didn't know what was building.
Is there a clue in this?
quote:
Let the coach do his job.
No problem provided he knows his job.
Pitch counts are a real issue. Whether you understand it or not.
Why does everybody have to make it so complicated? It is not just pitch count. It is velocity, mechanics, etc. I have pulled guys after 40 pitches because these things break down. A pitch count is a guide. Nothing more. It is not an absolute. However, setting a limit is prudent for young arms. Just don't get carried away with it.
BIG
You going to drop by Ft Myers this year?
You going to drop by Ft Myers this year?
Lilhit and I are going to come over for a day or 2. From where I live it is 1 1/2 hrs to Jupiter and 2 hrs to Fort Myers. I think we can make it.
I want to see some old friends if I can.
I want to see some old friends if I can.
BigHit,
Nice, simple and good advice.
Nice, simple and good advice.
BIG
Look forward to seeing you again--as soon as I have our schedule I will have it on our website
see you there
Look forward to seeing you again--as soon as I have our schedule I will have it on our website
see you there