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He is a sophmore not a senior.
The memories of a league championship will fade quickly if a young mans arm is ruined.
With his numbers it sounds like he has a bright future if he works hard and stays healthy.
He won't stay healthy long if that is repeated.
I am not with the majority that says congratulate the coach.
Seadog
The memories of a league championship will fade quickly if a young mans arm is ruined.
With his numbers it sounds like he has a bright future if he works hard and stays healthy.
He won't stay healthy long if that is repeated.
I am not with the majority that says congratulate the coach.
Seadog
Gut reaction to the question - and I'm not proud of it
Do nothing. Once in a lifetime chance
I have some growing up to do!!!!!
Do nothing. Once in a lifetime chance
I have some growing up to do!!!!!
I hate high pitch counts! My pitching coach for our 17-18 team has never allowed a pitcher to go more than 110 pitches in 15 years of travel baseball. If I knew the kids playing for us grew up playing catch each day in the backyard, I probably wouldn't be as concerned.
However, baseball is a team sport. Coaches need to always consider a person's health no matter what the situation is, but a kid who regularly throws 100-110 pitches could be stretched to 140 in the "final game". Gavin Floyd, starting pitcher with the Phillies late this season once threw 174 pitches against us. He was 16 and it was during a Sunday DHer. Threw 27 pitches in the 7th of game 1, came back and threw 147 pitches in game 2. His coach wanted to beat us bad!
Again, this was perhaps a once in a lifetime opportunity for the kid and his school. But, if the kid threw 70-80 pitches all season, then I say this was definitely a no-no!!!
However, baseball is a team sport. Coaches need to always consider a person's health no matter what the situation is, but a kid who regularly throws 100-110 pitches could be stretched to 140 in the "final game". Gavin Floyd, starting pitcher with the Phillies late this season once threw 174 pitches against us. He was 16 and it was during a Sunday DHer. Threw 27 pitches in the 7th of game 1, came back and threw 147 pitches in game 2. His coach wanted to beat us bad!
Again, this was perhaps a once in a lifetime opportunity for the kid and his school. But, if the kid threw 70-80 pitches all season, then I say this was definitely a no-no!!!
That's a tough one. I certainly would not have wanted my son (04) throwing 140 pitches *regularly* in HS. But beginning freshman year, he took charge of his own conversations with coaches about whether he could pitch or keep pitching. Freshman year he could throw 90 to 100 comfortably, and on numerous occasions starting soph year he threw 100 to 110 pitch complete games, stretched it to 120 a couple of times, and felt fine because he had conditioned his arm and would admit if his arm was tired and he needed to come out - sometimes after as few as 70 pitches on a cold day or if he just wasn't throwing smoothly that day. The times he did go to high counts he felt fine later, but usually took an extra day or two of rest. If the pitcher in question had a similar history of throwing 100+ pitches without trouble, and his arm felt fine in this particular game, I guess I personally would understand the choice to go 120+, even 130, yes even 140, to win the final game of the season that meant so much to the team. That might be an unpopular opinion, but the team is important, and winning does matter at the HS varsity level. But if the pitcher was my son, I would talk to him afterward about very carefully resting and refreshing his arm in the following days and weeks, and we would have a talk about where he would have set the limit if he was asked to go more than 140, even in such an important game.
You mentioned he had a chance to play beyond HS so I voted other because he would have been dragged off the mound by his dad before he reached that count. 
We don''t believe in pitch counts after a certain point.
If it is a team effort, and the hitters didn't do their fair share, the burden of winning any HS game should not rest on the pitchers "shoulder".
This year my son pitched a win for his team to get into the regionals. Next day (or maybe it was day after),was district championship and his team stuggled,so he came in to try to close the came with a win, only because his pitch count was very, very low the previous game.
A competitive 15-16 year old does not realize the ramifications that could occur later on. JMO
We don''t believe in pitch counts after a certain point.If it is a team effort, and the hitters didn't do their fair share, the burden of winning any HS game should not rest on the pitchers "shoulder".
This year my son pitched a win for his team to get into the regionals. Next day (or maybe it was day after),was district championship and his team stuggled,so he came in to try to close the came with a win, only because his pitch count was very, very low the previous game.
A competitive 15-16 year old does not realize the ramifications that could occur later on. JMO
Is this a Fall high school league? If so I dont see that as such a huge accomplishment, it wouldnt be where my boys play anyway. Saying that, if your son has made the varsity as a Soph, and you agreed to let him play for the HS coach and put your son into his hands. I dont think its right to second guess his judgement on the field. Depending on your relationship with the coach there are subtle ways of letting him know you think the count was high without being the "pitch count parent". With that, if you think real harm is being done to your kid then pull him off the team or move schools.
The example is hypothetical for a Spring HS season. While it is hypothetical, I did have a particular boy in mind. It actually happened relatively early in the season, for a team that had been very weak the year before, but was steadily improving...and the kid was never really the same the rest of the season. He didn't win a game the rest of the HS season. He did recover and had a good summer.
here we go with the pitch count thing again
I would definately have to agree with Tiger Paw mom. I voted other and would have pulled my son. That coach should be ashamed of himself. Sounds like he cares more about winning than your son's arm or future in baseball.
I wouldn't worry at all, if the kid says he;s alright, then he's alright.
I watched my son throw 138 pitches to get his team to Johnstown,Pa. for the AAABA games.. and watched him throw 151 pitches in Eclid,Oh at the High school WSs. not counting warm ups, two different teams with 2 different coaches, one a college coach, the kid said he was ok and it was good enough for them and I.
Maybe young players should use their arms more for throwing and less for stuffing big macs in their mouths.
I watched my son throw 138 pitches to get his team to Johnstown,Pa. for the AAABA games.. and watched him throw 151 pitches in Eclid,Oh at the High school WSs. not counting warm ups, two different teams with 2 different coaches, one a college coach, the kid said he was ok and it was good enough for them and I.
Maybe young players should use their arms more for throwing and less for stuffing big macs in their mouths.
If you have not discussed the pitch count with the coach ahead of time, then do so. If you have not, then you haven't done your due diligence. Most coaches will respect a pre agreed upon situation. I personally don't agree with strcit pitch counts and prefer to go by mechanics and velocity. However, that depends on whether the hs coach is capable of doing that. No disrespect to hs coaches, but their job is to win and sometimes that clouds their judgement. Kind of like asking a kid "are you ok". The coach wants to win and he wants the KID to win. No malice intended. That is why I believe in pre agreed upon pitch counts. If the hs coach shows great competence, then we can forego the pre agreed upon situation.
Last year, my sons coach would ask me when the pitch count got close. Yea or Nay? and abide by the decision. He knew that I knew his motion and delivery better than anybody.
Last year, my sons coach would ask me when the pitch count got close. Yea or Nay? and abide by the decision. He knew that I knew his motion and delivery better than anybody.
Every parent of a pitcher needs to invest a few bucks in a pitch counter so they can monitor their son's pitching. HINT: Just punching the button sends a message.
Pitchers need to be limited!
There are people that hate (and ignore) speed limits. Should we eliminate speed limits because someone drove 100 mph and wasn't involved in an accident?
We have to rely on historical data to guide us on subjects such as this.
There are high school coaches and college programs that abuse pitchers. Their pitchers pay a very high price because of this. Here's a link to Boyd's World that gives PAP (pitcher abuse points) for colleges.
Pitcher abuse points
Fungo
Pitchers need to be limited!
There are people that hate (and ignore) speed limits. Should we eliminate speed limits because someone drove 100 mph and wasn't involved in an accident?
We have to rely on historical data to guide us on subjects such as this.
There are high school coaches and college programs that abuse pitchers. Their pitchers pay a very high price because of this. Here's a link to Boyd's World that gives PAP (pitcher abuse points) for colleges.
Pitcher abuse points
Fungo
I am firmly in the "Protect the arm" camp, but I have also witnessed a father attempting to yank his son off the mound in a big game when his pitch count got a bit high. A very unforgettable scene seared in the memory of everyone who observed it: a father screaming at his son to put the ball down and trying to get over the fence to the field. Lots of "language". Unreal.
In the middle of a game, there's little you can do, but IMHO, make an opportunity to politely speak to the coach, one on one, away from the press, the crowd and everyone else, and voice your concerns. Some on here believe you never speak to the coach but I think that when it's a health issue, as a parent you have the right, just use your brain in picking when, where, and how, and carry an attitude of respect into the meeting.
In the middle of a game, there's little you can do, but IMHO, make an opportunity to politely speak to the coach, one on one, away from the press, the crowd and everyone else, and voice your concerns. Some on here believe you never speak to the coach but I think that when it's a health issue, as a parent you have the right, just use your brain in picking when, where, and how, and carry an attitude of respect into the meeting.
With that amount of pitches, anyone could know he wasn't sharp. He struggle. Well anyone except the coach, huh...
Unfortuneatley I had this conversation after the first game last spring. Should have had it prior.
I am the proud owner of a pitch counter, barely used just 1 season. Office Depot has them for $10.
Pitch Counters
I am the proud owner of a pitch counter, barely used just 1 season. Office Depot has them for $10.
Pitch Counters
Not enough information.
Congratulate the coach and then explain in a non-threatening, but promising tone that you did not approve of the pitch count and that you have no problem moving him to a school that will take care of his arm. Explain that this is nothing personal and that you just want to get this out in the open early because the next 3 years of HS baseball could be special. If the coach understands the progression levels from HS to College, and understands what a LH stud is worth, he should understand your comments. If he does not, and is not in tune with your feelings, begin that school search asap.
Throwing 140 pitches in a game is not a problem providing the following circumstances exist.
1) First and foremost this cannot be a regular occurrence but once a year in a big game is not a problem assuming items below are met.
2) Pitcher is maintaining his normal delivery and is not showing other signs of excessive fatigue. At this high of a pitch count it is a given the pitcher would have to be in good physical condition and come into the game with plenty of rest in order for fatigue not to show up.
3) Pitcher has not experienced any previous arm problems in the last couple of years.
If there are other games coming up the coach needs to be told by your son how many days rest he will now need to recover and that his pitch count will have to be 70 or 80 for the next couple of games.
With that said I do have to agree with strikeu that it is hard to believe he was not strugling with 140 pitches thrown in what I assume was a 7 inning game. My son who happens to also be a HS sophmore averages 81 pitches for a complete 7 inning game and I don't think he has ever hit 100 pitches.
1) First and foremost this cannot be a regular occurrence but once a year in a big game is not a problem assuming items below are met.
2) Pitcher is maintaining his normal delivery and is not showing other signs of excessive fatigue. At this high of a pitch count it is a given the pitcher would have to be in good physical condition and come into the game with plenty of rest in order for fatigue not to show up.
3) Pitcher has not experienced any previous arm problems in the last couple of years.
If there are other games coming up the coach needs to be told by your son how many days rest he will now need to recover and that his pitch count will have to be 70 or 80 for the next couple of games.
With that said I do have to agree with strikeu that it is hard to believe he was not strugling with 140 pitches thrown in what I assume was a 7 inning game. My son who happens to also be a HS sophmore averages 81 pitches for a complete 7 inning game and I don't think he has ever hit 100 pitches.
bbforlife,
The kid is 15 years old. 140 pitches in a 7 inning game, (20/inning) is outragous. Error on the side of caution. If he is a competitor, he will not want come out. If you are a good coach, you will seee he has to. One big game versus 3 years of quality innings, easy choice.
The kid is 15 years old. 140 pitches in a 7 inning game, (20/inning) is outragous. Error on the side of caution. If he is a competitor, he will not want come out. If you are a good coach, you will seee he has to. One big game versus 3 years of quality innings, easy choice.
rz1,
After making my post I did think about it a little more and did add a final paragraph. While I still believe 140 pitches in and of its self is not a problem. I find it hard to believe the kid was not struggling if he had to throw 140 pitches in a 7-inning game. With that said I don't think he would have passed item #2 in my check list and should have been pulled from the game.
After making my post I did think about it a little more and did add a final paragraph. While I still believe 140 pitches in and of its self is not a problem. I find it hard to believe the kid was not struggling if he had to throw 140 pitches in a 7-inning game. With that said I don't think he would have passed item #2 in my check list and should have been pulled from the game.
hokieone,
I was only kidding about the yanking the kid from the mound!
It was a tough question to answer because we know our son would have never been in the situation to begin with. In the beginning of the season (I posted this), last year we saw our son go way over an acceptable pitch count and we set the expectations early in the year (good idea big). After that day I had a long discussion with the CU coach about protecting a players arm. CU now has to redshirt a pitcher this spring because he came to them abused from HS. They are just putting a pitcher back this spring (hopefully) after having TJ surgery last year due to the same issue. His biggest pet peeve, you never ask in the middle of a heated game if the pitcher is alright because you will never get a competitve pitcher off by asking that. The coach decides when enough is enough, whether in LL, HS or college. Of course he is going to say he is alright, with the adrenal pumping, you don't feel a thing except maybe being tired!!!!
Will,
You are right here we go again, but this is probably one of the most important issues for parents of young pitchers to deal with, regardless of their sons future in baseball.
I don't care if he has PERFECT mechanics or not.If parents want to know why their son's velocity doesn't rise or drops, why he suddenly can't hit spots, why he suddenly can't get through a game without looking uncomfortable, they need to go back and figure out how many times their son pitched more than he should have. It takes it toll after awhile, some earlier than others.
I am not an expert on the subject but anyone can tell you that high pitch counts usually translate into lots of innings and that is the first thing a college coach or scout will ask.
Regardless of the situation, big game or little game, beginning of season, end of season, a jerk of a coach or the greatest coach in the world it is the parents ultimate responsibility of protecting their sons HEALTH.
I was only kidding about the yanking the kid from the mound!
It was a tough question to answer because we know our son would have never been in the situation to begin with. In the beginning of the season (I posted this), last year we saw our son go way over an acceptable pitch count and we set the expectations early in the year (good idea big). After that day I had a long discussion with the CU coach about protecting a players arm. CU now has to redshirt a pitcher this spring because he came to them abused from HS. They are just putting a pitcher back this spring (hopefully) after having TJ surgery last year due to the same issue. His biggest pet peeve, you never ask in the middle of a heated game if the pitcher is alright because you will never get a competitve pitcher off by asking that. The coach decides when enough is enough, whether in LL, HS or college. Of course he is going to say he is alright, with the adrenal pumping, you don't feel a thing except maybe being tired!!!!
Will,
You are right here we go again, but this is probably one of the most important issues for parents of young pitchers to deal with, regardless of their sons future in baseball.
I don't care if he has PERFECT mechanics or not.If parents want to know why their son's velocity doesn't rise or drops, why he suddenly can't hit spots, why he suddenly can't get through a game without looking uncomfortable, they need to go back and figure out how many times their son pitched more than he should have. It takes it toll after awhile, some earlier than others.
I am not an expert on the subject but anyone can tell you that high pitch counts usually translate into lots of innings and that is the first thing a college coach or scout will ask.
Regardless of the situation, big game or little game, beginning of season, end of season, a jerk of a coach or the greatest coach in the world it is the parents ultimate responsibility of protecting their sons HEALTH.
bbforlife,
Seeing your profile I thought there would be a "post typing" reconsideration. At that age games are almost always 7 innings. If you have to throw 140 pitches you are not in control of the game and should have been gone 40 pitches earlier.
Seeing your profile I thought there would be a "post typing" reconsideration. At that age games are almost always 7 innings. If you have to throw 140 pitches you are not in control of the game and should have been gone 40 pitches earlier.
Even Pedro Martinez doesn't know when he's done. How's a 15yr old supposed to know??
In general, pitch counts are very useful. I don't let any of my 13U kids go more than 75 pitches, but I temper that (by maybe 10 pitches or so) based on mechanics and control, and history.
Each kid is different for sure, but 140 is just too much...
In general, pitch counts are very useful. I don't let any of my 13U kids go more than 75 pitches, but I temper that (by maybe 10 pitches or so) based on mechanics and control, and history.
Each kid is different for sure, but 140 is just too much...
I would allow it in a once in a lifetime situation, as long as he said his arm was fine and he mechanically looked like he was fine. Usually if there is overwhelming fatigue or pain, there will be a breakdown in mechanics or his control will start to suffer. If any of these things are occurring, I pull him. I would not allow him to continue if there are signs of potential problems. Heavy ice, ibuprofen, some after game sprints to burn off lactic acid build-up and let him enjoy his moment if he looks fine.
Big hit 15
The coach would ask you yay or nay? Interesting
The coach would ask you yay or nay? Interesting
140 pitches for a 15 year old is outrageous. The kids always say they are fine but in a couple of weeks or maybe a month "my arm is sore" and "where is the Advil". Our HS coach never uses a pitch counter and loves curve balls. One pitcher with TJ surgery, 2 with very sore arms (missed a month of summer ball) and my son who was benched because he said he couln't throw any more curve balls. I have just bought 2 pitch counters and will use one to count pitches and one to count curve balls this season. Some of these coaches absolutely do not care about their players so as parents we have to monitor this.
A lot of this depends on the expertise of the coach and the time of year we are talking about. I had my ace throw about 130 pitches in the districts last year, as we went 8 innings, but it was the only time all season he threw over 115.
Pitch counts are a bit relative to the individual...I don't think that 115 for some guys is that high, yet for some it is much higher than their arm can handle.
The key, again, is the coach and his knowledge of this young man.
Pitch counts are a bit relative to the individual...I don't think that 115 for some guys is that high, yet for some it is much higher than their arm can handle.
The key, again, is the coach and his knowledge of this young man.
Collegiate Baseball recently had a major front page article on the issue of the enormous increase in overuse/TJ surgeries in teenagers. Sports medicine and orthopoedic professionals including physcians at Yale and elsewhere concluded the main issue in these injuries is overuse beginning at age 8. The leading doctors in the US in the article recommend pitch counts beginning at age 8 and that the counts be calculated by the game, the week, the season and the year and they provide suggestions as to what the counts should be. Anyone who doesn't think this high school sophomore has been pitching every "big" game for every team and coach during his baseball career with pitch counts often ignored based on the pitcher saying he is fine is avoiding the obvious . I think I know the end of Just's story. I suggest that anyone who supports this pitch count do a lot more studying of recent developments in medicine and arm injuries in teenagers and think what it would mean if it were your son having TJ surgery.
Thanks Justbaseball for starting the topic and poll. This is a critical question for parents of pitchers "what do you do if...". Just like your child didn't come with instructions when they were born there are no secret instructions on how durable your son's pitching arm will be. All you can do is use your common sense, reinforce to your son how important it is for them to be truthful on how their arm is feeling, and watch for signs of fatigue and slipping mechanics. In my experience keeping your son's arm healthy can at times make you a very unpopular person with the coach 
and other parents who might not mind winning at your son's expense. We've learned to say no and have taken the brunt of the backlash. But, in return we have sadly watched others stop playing due to arm problems why son has been able to continue in the sport he loves, and hopefully staying healthy as long as he can.
No easy answer on this one, unfortunately.
there are no secret instructions on how durable your son's pitching arm will be. All you can do is use your common sense, reinforce to your son how important it is for them to be truthful on how their arm is feeling, and watch for signs of fatigue and slipping mechanics. In my experience keeping your son's arm healthy can at times make you a very unpopular person with the coach and other parents who might not mind winning at your son's expense. We've learned to say no and have taken the brunt of the backlash. But, in return we have sadly watched others stop playing due to arm problems why son has been able to continue in the sport he loves, and hopefully staying healthy as long as he can. No easy answer on this one, unfortunately.
Will,
I know you directed a question to Big but since we live in the same area (and share district) my take is that there is much talent here beyond the HS level and most coaches respect and recognize that talent. They also know as parents, we have taken active roles in making sure that our kids health is not at risk.
Our kids have faced each other in important games and he might tell you, despite winning or losing, when it's time to come out, you are out.
Now Big's son just got drafted and mine is in a top D1, if that should indicate to you anything about what goes on around these parts. Our county also produced a top draft pick (Anthony Swarzak), along with others drafted last year. Winning a HS game down here is just as important as it is anywhere else, however, if the team can't help the pitcher, no need to waste added pitch counts, even with district and regional titles at stake.
I know you directed a question to Big but since we live in the same area (and share district) my take is that there is much talent here beyond the HS level and most coaches respect and recognize that talent. They also know as parents, we have taken active roles in making sure that our kids health is not at risk.
Our kids have faced each other in important games and he might tell you, despite winning or losing, when it's time to come out, you are out.
Now Big's son just got drafted and mine is in a top D1, if that should indicate to you anything about what goes on around these parts. Our county also produced a top draft pick (Anthony Swarzak), along with others drafted last year. Winning a HS game down here is just as important as it is anywhere else, however, if the team can't help the pitcher, no need to waste added pitch counts, even with district and regional titles at stake.
quote:
While I still believe 140 pitches in and of its self is not a problem.
BBforlife
Did my kid play for you?
Dad04,
Please don't take what I said out of context. After poor mechanics the number one reason for arm injuries is not giving pitchers enough time off between starts. For example starting a pitcher in a tournament on Thursday letting him throw 70 pitches and then pitching him again on Sunday and letting him throw another 70 pitches can be more detrimental than throwing 140 pitches in one game, assuming all circumstances in my first post are met.
Also for the record in all my years of coaching I have never had a pitcher miss a start due to a sore arm and believe it or not all pitchers I have ever coached are still pitching and none have arm problems because they continue to throw (not pitch) between starts and get four or five days pitching rest between starts.
As far as the comments by some posters that a kid will never tell you he is tired that is a given and you would never rely on what a kid says but on what you observe.
Please don't take what I said out of context. After poor mechanics the number one reason for arm injuries is not giving pitchers enough time off between starts. For example starting a pitcher in a tournament on Thursday letting him throw 70 pitches and then pitching him again on Sunday and letting him throw another 70 pitches can be more detrimental than throwing 140 pitches in one game, assuming all circumstances in my first post are met.
Also for the record in all my years of coaching I have never had a pitcher miss a start due to a sore arm and believe it or not all pitchers I have ever coached are still pitching and none have arm problems because they continue to throw (not pitch) between starts and get four or five days pitching rest between starts.
As far as the comments by some posters that a kid will never tell you he is tired that is a given and you would never rely on what a kid says but on what you observe.
Coaches think about wins.
Sons dream of glory.
Parents protect their children.
Don't hesitate to confront the situation in an appropiate manner.
Sons dream of glory.
Parents protect their children.
Don't hesitate to confront the situation in an appropiate manner.
bbforlife,
What you say is true, problem is does anyone REALLY know the answer to how much is too much?
FYI, Dad04 claims he was the class clown once upon a time in his childhood, seems it has carried over into his adult life. I think we need more folks around here that have his sense of humor...unless he was serious of course!
What you say is true, problem is does anyone REALLY know the answer to how much is too much?
FYI, Dad04 claims he was the class clown once upon a time in his childhood, seems it has carried over into his adult life. I think we need more folks around here that have his sense of humor...unless he was serious of course!
You asked what we would do:
Slip a note to the coach when he was around 80 pitches saying he was close to max. Sometimes depending on the flow of the game the count gets away from you. He may not have realized the count was that high.
Some kids may be able to throw that much, but mine can't.
Slip a note to the coach when he was around 80 pitches saying he was close to max. Sometimes depending on the flow of the game the count gets away from you. He may not have realized the count was that high.
Some kids may be able to throw that much, but mine can't.
Sounds like another high school coach riding "the big horse"....and he's only a high school sophomore!
I would just talk with the coach about next year and say that his (son's) limit is 100 pitches per game.
Deal with it.
I would just talk with the coach about next year and say that his (son's) limit is 100 pitches per game.
Deal with it.
TPM
I wish I was kidding. That guy went somewhere after they fired him.
I wish I was kidding. That guy went somewhere after they fired him.
Just one question did he throw a double-header?
10 - 12 pitches per inning is a good pitcher...so you go figure what this kid was doing and who this coach was...whew!
Rule of thumb in high school for 7 inning CG =
75 pitches great outing.
85 pitches good outing.
95 pitches okay outing.
100+ pitches needs to go back to the bullpen!
However some kids have been training since they where 8 years old to throw pretty much all day long. So it depends on the kind of pitcher you have; some kids can do it...most can't.
10 - 12 pitches per inning is a good pitcher...so you go figure what this kid was doing and who this coach was...whew!
Rule of thumb in high school for 7 inning CG =
75 pitches great outing.
85 pitches good outing.
95 pitches okay outing.
100+ pitches needs to go back to the bullpen!
However some kids have been training since they where 8 years old to throw pretty much all day long. So it depends on the kind of pitcher you have; some kids can do it...most can't.
I certainly don't have the stats, but how many major leaguers pitched 140 pitches in a game this year? I would venture to so few to none.
But its okay for a 15 yr old?? Come on... I understand all of Pics points, and I would agree if we were talking 100-120 pitches, not 140.
Just my opinion...
But its okay for a 15 yr old?? Come on... I understand all of Pics points, and I would agree if we were talking 100-120 pitches, not 140.
Just my opinion...