It even happens in the Ivy League. We often assume that this practice is limited to high power, high profile programs.
2006-2007 Roster
This school lost 5 players to graduation or draft. Team is limited to a 28 man roster.
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I am not really understanding why this is considered over recruiting. 
There is no limit to a roster, only a limit to travel and post season rosters, by NCAA guidelines.
TPM is right. This is an average sized roster to me.
Over recruiting is when 50 guys show up for 30-36 roster spots. A bunch are cut and redshirted to get down to the desired number on the roster. Keep in mind that several on the roster may not get off the bench.
Over recruiting is when 50 guys show up for 30-36 roster spots. A bunch are cut and redshirted to get down to the desired number on the roster. Keep in mind that several on the roster may not get off the bench.
I couldn't help but notice this is the 2006 Roster?
Nineteen players on roster have numerical jersey while the remaining fourteen do not.
So I suppose the fourteen freshman that do not have numerical jerseys, will all be wrestling for the final spots on the roster and be given every opportunity by Coach Whalen. If the freshman aren't ready, redshirt is always a viable option and allow a student/athlete an extra year to develop as player and/or complete academic requirements for academic program/major/degree. This is really far less than some colleges recruit in reference to over-recruiting though. Look at some of the other Ivy League schools besides Dartmouth.
peace
Nineteen players on roster have numerical jersey while the remaining fourteen do not.
So I suppose the fourteen freshman that do not have numerical jerseys, will all be wrestling for the final spots on the roster and be given every opportunity by Coach Whalen. If the freshman aren't ready, redshirt is always a viable option and allow a student/athlete an extra year to develop as player and/or complete academic requirements for academic program/major/degree. This is really far less than some colleges recruit in reference to over-recruiting though. Look at some of the other Ivy League schools besides Dartmouth.
peace
Dartmouth does limit their roster to 28 players.
The PROJECTED roster lists 33 players (both returning and incoming). Trust me when I say that because of injuries, cuts, upperclassmen realizing they will be seeing limited playing time, etc... they will have no problem being at 28 players.
Last year they had over 30 (including walk-ons) to start the season and ended up playing 27.
Because of admission requirements, I seriously doubt over recruiting will ever be a problem at Dartmouth.
JMO
The PROJECTED roster lists 33 players (both returning and incoming). Trust me when I say that because of injuries, cuts, upperclassmen realizing they will be seeing limited playing time, etc... they will have no problem being at 28 players.
Last year they had over 30 (including walk-ons) to start the season and ended up playing 27.
Because of admission requirements, I seriously doubt over recruiting will ever be a problem at Dartmouth.
JMO
quote:redshirt is always a viable option
Not sure that is an accurate statement for the Ivy League.
Dartmouth prides itself on having students obtain their degree in 4 years (not that it always happens, lol). Unless it's for medical reasons (and even then it hasn't happened in the last 4 years although a couple could have gotten it), I can't remember the last time anyone applied for or recieved a redshirt.
As a side note, you need to remember, and Coach Whalen will be the first to point it out, the main reason for going to Dartmouth isn't baseball.
Frank,
What happens to an injured player, is he cut?
I beleive you when you say the final roster sits around 28. And coach is right, you go to Dartmouth for a degree.
What happens to an injured player, is he cut?
I beleive you when you say the final roster sits around 28. And coach is right, you go to Dartmouth for a degree.
quote:What happens to an injured player, is he cut?
Only two major cases I remember happened in the off season so it wasn't an issue, they weren't on the roster at the beginning of the season. If they are injured during the season, they aren't cut.
Because of attrition, players quitting, etc... in the four years Josh was there the coach cut 5 kids and most of them were walk-ons. One walk-on started quite a few games last year.
Sorry, but Iscream is barking up the wrong tree in this case. DOH!! (In honor of your picture
)
Injured players can get a medical redshirt. I don't think the medical redshirt counts against the NCAA scholarship allowance.
quote:Injured players can get a medical redshirt.
True. I believe both were both offered one. One graduated in June and is utilizing his medical redshirt at another institution where he's going for his masters which wasn't offered at Dartmouth. The other one is a junior baseball wise but a senior as far as academics. Talking with him last year he said he wasn't going to utilize his redshirt but
At Yale, several players who were injured (or who were having academic troubles) took a year off and returned the following year - on the team and one or two - right back into the daily lineup without skipping a beat. For example, one might have gotten hurt at the end of the season his sophomore year - took off a year and returned after that for his junior year with two more years of eligibilty.
I happen to disagree with my esteemed friend, FrankF. My son is rostered on the Dartmouth baseball team; returning for his 3rd year. I have followed the Dartmouth recruiting classes for 4 years now. This is easily the largest group of freshman recruited in those 4 years. In 2006, 4 seniors graduated and 1 junior signed after the draft. 14 new players do not fit into 5 open roster spots very easily.
This incoming group represents 50% of the total allowed roster. There may be a returning pitcher in the upperclass. There will be much competition for a position on the 2007 roster.
I think the initial observation in the original post is valid. Research your target schools. Large recruiting classes can arrive in any school. Even at schools that emphasize academics over athletics.
This incoming group represents 50% of the total allowed roster. There may be a returning pitcher in the upperclass. There will be much competition for a position on the 2007 roster.
I think the initial observation in the original post is valid. Research your target schools. Large recruiting classes can arrive in any school. Even at schools that emphasize academics over athletics.
College baseball teams that aspire to compete consistently for their conference's title intentionally create competitive environments within their own rosters (and I wouldn't expect the Ivy League to be immune from this attribute). From the coaches' perspective, it's impossible to know which entering players will work out; so, it's inevitable that if they err, they err on the side of bringing in more players than their known level of openings requires.
I think the large majority of coaches try to restrict this practice to reasonable levels. However, because they're working with extremely imprecise estimates, they're going to fall prey occasionally to the charge that they've "over recruited" in a given year.
In the example here, Dartmouth's current class of 14 for 5 roster spots may seem excessive; but, the fact is that no one will really know for a couple of years. This season's roster could end up being somewhat heavy in underclass players; but, the combination of higher-than-normal losses of players and a smaller class next year could bring the mix back into alignment.
Because of this, I've found myself judging programs on a relative scale; hoping to see year-to-year adjustments made to keep proportions of players by class in some "normal" range and maintaining a willingness to give a coaching staff the benefit of the doubt when the roster becomes a little "freshman heavy." Programs that follow this pattern tend to have relatively few transfers out over time; something to follow by recruited players and their parents.
On the other end of the scale are those programs that consistently bring in large classes. Often, transfers make up between 1/4 and 1/2 of the entering class. In this environment, only elite freshmen play regularly. To make room for each year's large class, a steady stream of players transfer out; some at mid-year.
So, how does one know in advance where a program stands on the recruiting scale? Going back three-to-five years, I'd look at the following:
(1) Size of entering class. (Souce: News item on program's website)
(2) Percentage of transfers in each entering class. (Source: News item on program's website)
(3) Who played the most innings, transfers vs. freshmen/sophomores? (Source: Season statistics from program's website)
(4) How many transferred out? (Source: Archived rosters from program's website, if available. If not, you'll have to get a feel for this from discussions with current and past players and/or their parents.)
(5) What's it like to be a freshman there? (Source: Conversations with current and past players who arrived as freshmen and/or their parents.)
I think the large majority of coaches try to restrict this practice to reasonable levels. However, because they're working with extremely imprecise estimates, they're going to fall prey occasionally to the charge that they've "over recruited" in a given year.
In the example here, Dartmouth's current class of 14 for 5 roster spots may seem excessive; but, the fact is that no one will really know for a couple of years. This season's roster could end up being somewhat heavy in underclass players; but, the combination of higher-than-normal losses of players and a smaller class next year could bring the mix back into alignment.
Because of this, I've found myself judging programs on a relative scale; hoping to see year-to-year adjustments made to keep proportions of players by class in some "normal" range and maintaining a willingness to give a coaching staff the benefit of the doubt when the roster becomes a little "freshman heavy." Programs that follow this pattern tend to have relatively few transfers out over time; something to follow by recruited players and their parents.
On the other end of the scale are those programs that consistently bring in large classes. Often, transfers make up between 1/4 and 1/2 of the entering class. In this environment, only elite freshmen play regularly. To make room for each year's large class, a steady stream of players transfer out; some at mid-year.
So, how does one know in advance where a program stands on the recruiting scale? Going back three-to-five years, I'd look at the following:
(1) Size of entering class. (Souce: News item on program's website)
(2) Percentage of transfers in each entering class. (Source: News item on program's website)
(3) Who played the most innings, transfers vs. freshmen/sophomores? (Source: Season statistics from program's website)
(4) How many transferred out? (Source: Archived rosters from program's website, if available. If not, you'll have to get a feel for this from discussions with current and past players and/or their parents.)
(5) What's it like to be a freshman there? (Source: Conversations with current and past players who arrived as freshmen and/or their parents.)
I think Prepster has it right. I didn't really understand how things worked until seeing how they went last year for my son in his freshman year. At the college level, you can't just look at your current team either and decide whether or not you will play. For example, you can't just say well "If I beat these two kids out, I'll be the starter for the next four years." At many schools, there is a constant competition going on at every position and they will bring kids in from all over the nation to battle for those positions.
I noticed there was one roster when my son was recruited, another one in the fall of his freshman year, a different roster in the spring of freshman year, and still yet another roster of new faces this fall. At each juncture, kids left for other programs and kids were added. When my son was recruited, he was the only new infielder at the time. By the time spring practices started, they had recruited one more freshman infielder, a JUCO transfer infielder, and a D1 transfer infielder. They had a senior ss returning, a junior second baseman returning, and two other sophmore infielders who had played the year before. That is eight kids basically competing for three infield positions at second, short, and third. It is even worse for pitchers imo although there are more spots to fill.
No matter the level - D1, D2, D3, NAIA, JUCO, the more successful the program imho, the more competitive it will likely be to a) get onto the roster, and b) find playing time after making the team. Former Observer said it best. It is a Darwinian struggle to survive at the next level let alone thrive. One needs to be a supreme competitor in order to meet these challenges imho.
I noticed there was one roster when my son was recruited, another one in the fall of his freshman year, a different roster in the spring of freshman year, and still yet another roster of new faces this fall. At each juncture, kids left for other programs and kids were added. When my son was recruited, he was the only new infielder at the time. By the time spring practices started, they had recruited one more freshman infielder, a JUCO transfer infielder, and a D1 transfer infielder. They had a senior ss returning, a junior second baseman returning, and two other sophmore infielders who had played the year before. That is eight kids basically competing for three infield positions at second, short, and third. It is even worse for pitchers imo although there are more spots to fill.
No matter the level - D1, D2, D3, NAIA, JUCO, the more successful the program imho, the more competitive it will likely be to a) get onto the roster, and b) find playing time after making the team. Former Observer said it best. It is a Darwinian struggle to survive at the next level let alone thrive. One needs to be a supreme competitor in order to meet these challenges imho.
I think you can research this issue to death and end up no better off in the end. You have to pick the school based on your criteria and go for it. There is no way you can predetermine the playing time you will get because there are just too many factors to consider. It is up to the player to get out there and do the best he can on and off the field.
One thing I think that would help is that the players were made aware of the issues before they arrive at the weigh-in. Most HS kids are pumped by the fact that they got a scholarship and got accepted by a school and don't realize that they have to compete to make the team, the roster and the 25 man travel roster. My son was shocked at the number of guys who showed up. We didn't have a clue about these issues.
I can completely understand why a coaching staff would have to do this. At the end of the Freshman year the coach will have a talk with you and then the question my son asked was wether the coach sees him in their plans for next year. If their confidence level in you is low then you have a decsion to make.
One thing I think that would help is that the players were made aware of the issues before they arrive at the weigh-in. Most HS kids are pumped by the fact that they got a scholarship and got accepted by a school and don't realize that they have to compete to make the team, the roster and the 25 man travel roster. My son was shocked at the number of guys who showed up. We didn't have a clue about these issues.
I can completely understand why a coaching staff would have to do this. At the end of the Freshman year the coach will have a talk with you and then the question my son asked was wether the coach sees him in their plans for next year. If their confidence level in you is low then you have a decsion to make.
All good points made here to consider.
When looking at a program, try to determine if they rebuilt or reload each year there is a difference.
When looking at a program, try to determine if they rebuilt or reload each year there is a difference.
Along the same lines.............What happens if a scholarship player doesn't make the team in the fall workout? We know of an infielder that got some money for baseball(small D1). He is concerned because 78 kids are trying out for 34 roster spots. If he doesn't make the cut..what happens to his baseball scholarship money..(Fall and Spring Semester)?
quote:We know of an infielder that got some money for baseball(small D1). He is concerned because 78 kids are trying out for 34 roster spots. If he doesn't make the cut..what happens to his baseball scholarship money
I am guessing that about half of those 78 are walk-on players and probably have little chance of making the team. From what little I know, the letter of intent serves as a contract between the athlete and the school. Thus, for at least the first year, the school is bound to honor the contract regardless if he makes the team or not. I am sure someone will correct me here if I am wrong about that.
quote:At many schools, there is a constant competition going on at every position and they will bring kids in from all over the nation to battle for those positions.
CD, I think you are exactly right. On this site, we tend to see things from the perspective of the parent and player, since the vast majority of posters are one of the two.
Coaches likely have a much different perspective. The biggest difference is that coaches are being paid to coach and usually to win. If they don't win, they don't keep their job!!!!
I would also suggest that the coach may not be looking at the Dartmouth situation, for example, from the view that he "only" lost 4 to graduation, one to the draft and has 5 "open" roster spots. If I had to speculate, I think college coaches begin a season with the mindset that "all" the roster "spots" are open each year. For all the reasons Prepster described, I wouldn't equate a recruiting class of 14 to be overrecruiting.
Once our sons are out of high school, they enter a very different baseball world. In college, the coaches job/salary/livelihood depends on how successfully his team competes year in and year out. At the professional level, your salary and livelihood depends on how successfully you compete day in and day out.
After high school, whether you are playing college or professional, your baseball experience is one where you win a job and then you show up tomorrow and win the job again. If you are the player who didn't win the job yesterday, you show up motivated to change that situation today.
I realize that on this board we, rightfully, focus on getting that NLI/scholarship and announcing where our son is headed to play baseball after high school. While I think that is great, unfortunately, I believe that too many enter the next level of baseball thinking the NLI/scholarship/recruiting experience/past performance is the culmination of the process, when indeed it is only the beginning. Sometimes the players/parents realize this too late.
I think we as parents can really help our sons by emphasizing that nothing is "guaranteed" in the world of competitive baseball after high school. Our sons need to play, improve and adjust and produce better than the next player at every opportunity because that is what college coaches and professional organizations expect and demand. When they have played, improved, adjusted and produced better than the next player, the coach or organization will then bring in another recruit/draftee and the process starts again.
A few things here from this ol' warhorse
01--Unless a freshman player truly "screws" he won't lose his scholarship to a walk on---the scholarship is good for at least the first year.
02--- As for the so-called" over recruiting in the IVIES keep in mind there are no baseball scholarships in the IVIES---thus they are always looking for "diamonds in the rough"
03--I have mentioned it before but I will say it again---when my son signed he received a letter,which I requested,stipulating the following:
a) he was one of the 32 man squad--there was a uniform with his name and number on it
b) he has to earn the right to start
c) he had to earn the right to travle with the team---the entire squad did not travel
Always remember that there are no givens in this game
01--Unless a freshman player truly "screws" he won't lose his scholarship to a walk on---the scholarship is good for at least the first year.
02--- As for the so-called" over recruiting in the IVIES keep in mind there are no baseball scholarships in the IVIES---thus they are always looking for "diamonds in the rough"
03--I have mentioned it before but I will say it again---when my son signed he received a letter,which I requested,stipulating the following:
a) he was one of the 32 man squad--there was a uniform with his name and number on it
b) he has to earn the right to start
c) he had to earn the right to travle with the team---the entire squad did not travel
Always remember that there are no givens in this game
infielddad,
There should be no RHIP or tenure in baseball. Strap it on and may the best man win.
As a side note, JMO and with apologies to my good friend dbg, but, unless something drastic has changed at Dartmouth, I doubt the coach got the administration to give him 14 true recruits. I would bet some are recruited walk-ons which is another topic altogether. I do agree 14 is the most I've seen at Dartmouth since I've been following them. Even at that, if no one quits, gets hurt, etc... you are only talking about 5 cuts.
There should be no RHIP or tenure in baseball. Strap it on and may the best man win.
As a side note, JMO and with apologies to my good friend dbg, but, unless something drastic has changed at Dartmouth, I doubt the coach got the administration to give him 14 true recruits. I would bet some are recruited walk-ons which is another topic altogether. I do agree 14 is the most I've seen at Dartmouth since I've been following them. Even at that, if no one quits, gets hurt, etc... you are only talking about 5 cuts.
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
a) he was one of the 32 man squad--there was a uniform with his name and number on it
b) he has to earn the right to start
c) he had to earn the right to travle with the team---the entire squad did not travel
Always remember that there are no givens in this game
I have to agree with the above. We all have to remember that in the end, we end up paying a lot of money for our kids to go to school, one way or the other, scholarship or no scholarship. If mine is going to go play somewhere based on baseball (which IS a large part of the fit) I want mine in a uniform, regardless of start, sub or redshirt, I want him to be a part of the team. TR is right about the travel roster, it changes all of the time. In the end the 25 man post season is what is important and a player has all season to earn that right to be named to that roster.
I know it's not done this way at many schools, but then he has a choice not to attend, if baseball is a prime consideration of where you attend.
NCAA D1 schools are required to hold open tryouts. They have no control over who shows up. Invited walkons, large recruiting class is another issue. Many schools publish fall/spring rosters, but I would certainly feel uneasy if they were not in line with each other. 48 fall roster, 35 spring doesn't make me feel that coach has done his job, but that is JMO.
Recruiting is a business, some are very good at it and others are not.
I have to agree with Frank - the admissions office cannot in their right mind give the baseball team fourteen recruiting spots - even eight or nine is an enormous number - especially for a school that only has a population of perhaps 4000 or less. And Dartmouth is well-known for having its admissions office work extremely independently from its sports offices - too many times we have heard of a Dartmouth coach assuring a student (and a good student) a place on the team, and then watching that student get rejected.
Don'T want to bE the eXtrA to mention any collegeS,
yet over recruiting vs releasing players (after they are enrolled/fall semester), is so far over the bordeline wrong/unethical!
yet over recruiting vs releasing players (after they are enrolled/fall semester), is so far over the bordeline wrong/unethical!
.
Good thread...
Now while I know that serious over-recruiting does occur...
From a coaches viewpoint...roster size is not a science, but an art.
Even with the best most honorable intentions roster sizes beteen the time players are NLI'd and the time the finally show up for fall workouts 9 months later can shift in some pretty dramatic ways.
Personal issues, transfers in, transfers out, academic issues, the draft, signings, cannot always be anticipated to the perfect number 9 months later.
While it may be hard to understand for incoming players and their parents that is the reality of the thing. As was said by previous posters this is no longer "Feel Good" baseball. You do as much homework as you can prior to your NLI (I really like prepster formula) but at some point you have to bust your tail in preparation, jump in with both feet, compete and rise to the challenge.
As the parent of a second year DI it is interesting to listen to the parents of new verballed players talk about promised starting spots. Many have no idea how tough baseball life gets beyond high school...
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Good thread...
Now while I know that serious over-recruiting does occur...
From a coaches viewpoint...roster size is not a science, but an art.
Even with the best most honorable intentions roster sizes beteen the time players are NLI'd and the time the finally show up for fall workouts 9 months later can shift in some pretty dramatic ways.
Personal issues, transfers in, transfers out, academic issues, the draft, signings, cannot always be anticipated to the perfect number 9 months later.
While it may be hard to understand for incoming players and their parents that is the reality of the thing. As was said by previous posters this is no longer "Feel Good" baseball. You do as much homework as you can prior to your NLI (I really like prepster formula) but at some point you have to bust your tail in preparation, jump in with both feet, compete and rise to the challenge.
As the parent of a second year DI it is interesting to listen to the parents of new verballed players talk about promised starting spots. Many have no idea how tough baseball life gets beyond high school...
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