Overated v. Underated players

I don't think there's a kid out there who is ALWAYS productive in games or NEVER productive in games. Just as I don't believe there are kids who ALWAYS showcase well or NEVER showcase well. If a scout hear's about this high profile can't miss prospect and goes and sees him tank it in one game, I don't think he shuts the door on the kid. Same with showcases. If an unknown comes out of nowhere and has a huge showcase, the scout isn't going to throw a contract in front of him on the spot. In both cases they need to see a larger sample, or body of work before they commit one way or the other. Anyway, those are my thoughts.

You may may not think the player did well but coaches and scouts see things you do not---just relax

I had some great belly laughs watching the recruiting videos of some of the top prospects in the MLB draft.

Players listed as great hitters were shown swinging feebly and striking out in their video at-bats.

Strong and sharp fielders were shown making throws to first that either pulled the first baseman off the bag or were uncatchable. Other strong fielders were shown making errors on the warm up grounders hit for the video.

After attending a few minor league games, I came to see that the videos outdid the hype.

If the current crop in the Florida State League is the MLB player of the future, the game may become an oddity.

I find it really sad when the majority of MLB All Stars are playing for countries other than this one in the World Championship Series.

Do we lack talented ball players or do the scouts and recruiters have another agenda that they are promoting?

BOBO

There are very few "great" hitters and they are in the bigs

There are no great HS or college hitters---the good ones are solid hitting prospects--and who knows what will become of them as the move up the ladder

There are no great hitters in the bigs. A great hitter can hit in all facets of the game.

These kids should be hitting .400 or better to be considered a good hitting prospect for the bigs.

It really isn't about talent as I have learned. A kid like Shane Robinson should not have seen 165 players drafted before he was. The kid who hit 18 home runs in Pasco County got little to no mention.

It's all about the hype and the hypsters. I look at the current crop in Joplin looking to represent this nation in international play. Five and six errors a game does not imply in the least that these kids are the best ball players this nation has to offer.

If a talented kid does not pay the hypsters, he gets no notice. Scouts and recruiters have to get out and see the real world and not only the showcases.

How does a kid pitch two years in a row winning the highest level classification in the high school state championship not get noticed?

The system is broken and baseball is suffering for it.

I have always said that there is more hype in baseball than reality.
I don't think there is an agenda but scouts are human and it is hard to judge talent. You are often only as good as your last outing in most cases.
Most scouts look at the long ball and preach singles. I would rather face a long ball hitter than a contact hitter as a pitcher. Personally the emphasis on LB hitters is exciting but overlooks the contact guys.

The trend for scouts to go to showcases is going to hurt baseball. They no longer scoure the country to look for talent. This is a sign of the times. Usually the scouts go to look at a few players and then they leave.
If there are very few talented hitters well there are also very few talented scouts. I have been at tournaments where the good old boys retire to the beer tent and don't emmerge for hours. Some do take their job serious but they are the few.
I can't agree that the hitters should be all hitting 400+. They are facing great pitching and that will dampen the average.

The pitching they have been facing is either high school or college pitching which should pale compared to MLB pitching.

If they aren't hitting at least .400 and knocking the cover off the ball, how does one justify a million dollar signing bonus?

In those thrilling days of yesteryear, scouts would have contacts in many areas who would give a call or send a telegram if they saw a good prospect. It's a shame that high school coaches have lost either interest or credibility in the minds of the scouts. (Or they are not serving the right refreshments)

BOBO

Simple question for you--how many hitters in the "bigs" have hit over 400 in a season ?


And you want to use that as a parameter ???

Let's get real BOBO--it just doesnt happen

I would prefer .500.

Using the theory of diminishing returns, we seem to be assuminmg that the average of a hitter will drop the higher up the ladder they climb. This works out fairly well when the starting average is .300 and then drops with each successive promotion until the level of incompetence is reached.

BOBO

you are such a dreamer---get real

Who would you assess as the better hitter?

a high school senior hitting .350 or

a college senior hitting .350

Somehow the common sense of this is not shared by the powers that be.

BoBo if life were that simple.
I assume that most players improve otherwise don't bother running and working on your game.
I knew HS pitchers who would set down the best HS hitters. I also know hitters who hit poorly at the beginning of HS and were drafted in the 1st 4 rounds.
My son pitched bullpen to a guy who was drafted in the 1st round. There were 14 scouts watching and my son threw 60-70 pitches and he fouled off 3. No hits. The guy got 1st round and a bonus of 400+. He did have a great swing though. 2 years before that he was not even a blip on the radar screen. He was even cut from a rep team. I admire the work he put in to get better.
Another guy who my son faced 3 times in a game. Struckout, walked and grounded out. 4th rounder. They tell me he is a great hitter. Hit for the cycle against Duguesne U as a` 16 yo. I am not knocking this guy or the other one. I just think that there is a lot of hype. The scouts jump on the band wagon.
I once read a scouts comments on a pitcher and he said he had 12 Ks against ABC team. Anyone who knew the team would never put that in print.

WillieBobo,
You make good points if you buy into the thought that "they should find me" mentality. I could be the best car salesman on my lot, in my city, and maybe even in my State. But, unless I go to the National car shows, strut my stuff, and "hobknob" with the big fish I will not be noticed for the "bigtime". Baseball, car sales, reality, or any other occupation that is result driven with a mutitude of candidates requires that an individual has to have a level of self promotion.

quote:

A kid like Shane Robinson should not have seen 165 players drafted before he was. The kid who hit 18 home runs in Pasco County got little to no mention.

Did Shane go out and compete in events that compared him to others that were drafted ahead of him? If he did, maybe those professionals that who judge talent did not see what you profess he has. If he did not make that effort in self promotion, he should look in the mirror on who is to blame.

quote:

If a talented kid does not pay the hypsters, he gets no notice. Scouts and recruiters have to get out and see the real world and not only the showcases

It's a big real world out there and not enough scouts to look in all the corners. As a business you try to run efficiently and that is done by consolidating your products, finding the worthy ones, and follow them. In baseball that consolidation is done through events. There are those who fall through cracks but with 50 rounds on a draft, and if they have game, they will be picked. Where you get picked depends on how you promote yourself.

quote:

How does a kid pitch two years in a row winning the highest level classification in the high school state championship not get noticed?

Maybe it's a "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" issue or that player has not gone outside the box to prove himself.

quote:

The system is broken and baseball is suffering for it.

One small cog in the wheel says it's broke, the rest of the wheel thinks everything is fine and wheel still turns. Bottom line, if you want something bad enough you will work within the system and find a way to make it work for you.

Someday your issues may be addressed, but at this time the system is running smooth and the owners uses a "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mentality. Baseball is played at a higher level from corner to corner of this country and is expanding outside the borders daily while scouting numbers have remained relatively constant. A player that wants to be noticed has to make the make that world initially smaller and that is done through the showcases and events.

Shane Robinson was a star outfielder for Florida State. I'm sure he got plenty of exposure in that forum. Clearly I think his size, fairly or unfairly, made him slip in the draft. He's like 5'9", 165 lbs.

Yet Torrey Langley, a prep catcher listed at 5'8" 170 lbs. went in the third round. This kid has been hyped, probably rightfully, since Little League.

I misread WillieBobo post and thought there was a different Shane Robinson from Pasco County.
As far as why he slipped every team had a bunch of chances for him but they all had some type of an issue. In the end they are the ones who sign the checks.

I guess being named college player of the year last year by the NCAA followed by a senior year of batting .351 for FSU is not promotion enough for the one guy.

The other kid is a winner. Two years of winning the 6A state championship in Florida is a fine feather in ones' cap.

Woe unto those talented players who do not pay the hypsters.

As long as the fans continue to accept the inferior product that is being served, there will be no change. I agree with that.

The system is broken. Just look at the high priced talent on the Durham Bulls.

BoBo I have asked that question many times about a great college player going latter than a great HS player. It does make you wonder but you have all these teams who assess the talent and their needs. It is not mechanical.
Shane Roberts is a star and my son was impressed with him.

It is guys like you BOBO who make the system "broken"

What is your agenda anyway? Are you fired coach/scout who has an axe to grind?

I have to tell you the cross that you carry is heavy

quote:

Woe unto those talented players who do not pay the hypsters

If you have game you will get an opportunity to show your stuff and if you are worthy you will get paid that worth sooner or later. Your bottom line issues seem to evolve around the draft and signing money. If you get drafted in the 3rd round or the 33rd if you can play you will be given the opportunity.

quote:

As long as the fans continue to accept the inferior product that is being served, there will be no change

I don't understand the "inferior product" mentality.

quote:

The other kid is a winner. Two years of winning the 6A state championship in Florida is a fine feather in ones' cap.

Not according to those who rate players.

The showcases actually help the little guy. They help the kids that don't go to the big schools or play on travel teams. They at least can get seen. Yes, there is some cost involved. The alternative is worse.

I find it interesting that another thread is discussing the scouts rating systems. An attempt to quantify a players talent in terms of numbers.
The product is not inferior and it imperfections give it some character. I prefer tp whatch collge ball but ML is a great product. Itis a game of failure and getting bent out of shape because of its imperfections is a waste of energy.

Longtoss:

Excellent question and topic starter. To avoid it being hijacked further, let me add my 2 cents. First, my comments will be limited to middle infielders because that is what I played and know something about and that is what my son plays and so those are the players I tend to watch at showcases, etc. Compare and constrast as my High School English teacher said year ago. Second, realize that my conclusions are tenative and not yet constructed in stone because I have not seen the final outcome of my observations. However, here goes.

Overall I believe the trend to scouting at more showcases is a good thing. Not necessarily for MLB but definetly for college coaches. It has its negatives; the most egregious is that the finiancially straped families with the outstanding athelete are left out of the loop. But it provides any interested college coach an opportunity to see many players at many positions in one place at one time and competing against each other and that is a forum where the talent on display can be evaluated.

The question is what did the player's overall participation at the showcase tell that college coach. Regardless of his ability to "showcase" his skills on that day, the perceptive college coach observed the players attitude, his ability to deal with stress and, perhaps, adversity. He evaluated how the player mixed with the other players, how much of a team player he was, a potenial leader he was, etc.

It is true that many coaches are not watching for these traits. They come to the preliminaries, write down the "pop times" and the gun reading for the throws to first, some hitting and leave. Others come to the games and read the sheets on the information of the preliminary events. Then the game times come and those coaches that are still there may see a player at his best or at his worst and the evaluation is accordingly made. As PopTime has pointed out in his post, the perceptive college coach will know this fact and will want to "see a larger sample or body of work before they commit one way or the other" to the player. How many coaches go through all these hoops. I would say not many.

And, as a result, you have the situation WillieBobo describes. Players with great pop times and gun times to first that make an accurate throw one out of 4 times on their best day. That, by the way, is a fielding % of .750 which should be unacceptible to anybody. But, say the defenders, you can teach a 17 year old boy to throw more accurately: you can't teach him to throw harder. WRONG AGAIN BOZO BREATH. The perceptive college coach will understand from watching the player whether he can get his arm speed up with better mechanics, etc or whether it will be dificult to improve the accuracy for the 85 MPH guy who has no range and and can't consistently catch a ball backhanded in the hole.

Reader of this posting. Will your son be evaluated by such a coach at a baseball showcase near you? Doubtful but enough in the realm of possibility that it is worth the risk. Because the preceptive college coach is the one you want your son to play for.

I'm just an old baseball fan who knows how the game should be played.

What we are being served is not high level baseball.

Even ARod now understands why a good hitter will hit the other way with runners on first and second.

The scouts and GM's are not signing prospects for the most part. They are signing prayers.

Hundreds of players are drafted each year and hundreds are let go each year.

MLB clubs are expanding minor league operations outside of the USA. They seem to realize that they are better off paying less for these 'prospects' in poverty stricken nations.

If you want a real taste of the kids the hypsters are promoting as the nations best, just keep tabs on the Tournament of Stars in Joplin. In my day, an All Star team did not make five or six errors a game. Neither were they ever blown out by ten runs or more. But the hypsters rule the game, and the game is less for it.

There are free team camps and scouting bureau camps all over the US and Canada. I have seen guys who play a couple years of college ball with no pro interest get signed after a pro camp.

BOBO

What is your agenda?


Are you related to Ramrod ?

BoBo,

I think one of the "Organizational Tall Trees" that you refer to in your signature dropped a limb and bonked your noggin'. You've completely lost me. Later

quote:

Woe unto those talented players who do not pay the hypsters.

Is this a shot at showcases? If not, what exactly are you trying to say?

Not a shot at showcases at all.

A shot at the organizations who promote only those who attend their showcases.

When given a say in objectively selecting the elite players, any and all organizations who only promote those who fatten their pockets would be in essence cheating all who do not attend.

Lazy scouts who only attend showcases and do not go the extra mile in seeking out possible major league talent are cheating the game.

Scouts who do not run camps in areas with the suggested players from the area high schools are cheating the game.

There was a kid in Oklahoma who was not hyped but a teammate was. When the scout attended to see the teammate, he noticed this kid hitting the ball out of the park. If the scout would have just ignored this kid since he was not there to scout him, Mickey Mantle may have never played major league baseball.

BOBO\


Post your credenials to say what you say

The only credential I need is a ticket stub.

I still have one from a game that Righetti pitched a no hitter.

If BOBO sees ticket stub as a credential that even disturbs me more---the man shows no credentials and spews what he spews---what does he know---I was at the first game Willie Mays played in the Polo Grounds--that aint no credential


Daddio--I wont get into your post regarding PG but I know what we do-- size does not enter into the equation- academics and talent does

I've seen PG give pretty good ratings to undersized kids based on projectability. I'm not going to get into this dogfight again. I think showcases are a vital tool for scouts and recruiters. Has it made the process a little lazy on the part of the scouts? Maybe some. But listen to scouts and recruiters and they just don't have the budgets to get all the places they used to get. And scouting staffs are being cut to the bone by some teams. Unfortunately i think what happens is some kids who deserve a look will get missed. I think the days of finding that "diamond in the rough" are over unless prospects and parents know how to play the game. Yes, that means showcasing and marketing and not waiting around to be discovered. Heck, that's what we all hoped for when I was playing baseball back in the 70's. If you weren't blue chip, you prayed for a miracle. It doesn't have to be that way anymore.

Posted by Daddio

quote:

In todays day and age don't you think maybe it is getting somewhat justified? I mean if you're not 6' or above, or 180 lbs or above, PG wont even come close to giving you the rating or promotion you deserve. To them, size ia all that matters to them these days. Are they really **** justice to the many talented kids that are not of that size?

Are showcases these days promotion tools or are they money makers? Certainly a topic of discussion for a long time. With the addition of BBWebTv and Crosschecker, don't you think that issue for PG has gotten even more clouded?

Daddio,

Please do some research before making accusations. And are you saying things like Crosschecker and Baseballwebtv are somehow BAD for the young players today?

Two of our highest ranked 07 prospects are about 5'10" or 5'11". We ranked 6'0" Scott Kazmir #1 in his high school class over the BIGGER boys! Lastings Milledge, Andrew McCutchen, Jeremy Jeffress, John Drennen, Jeremy Hellickson, Kasey Kiker, Derrick Robinson, Torre Langley, etc., etc., etc. All less than 6 foot tall!

Oh yea!!! I forgot they all paid us! That's why we promoted them! Thanks for telling us because I thought it was because of their talent.

Listen, I get pissed when people just don't get it!!!! We do not play favorites! Talent is what counts!!! 952 of the 1502 players drafted this year attended PG events. 27 of the first 30 players picked. 38 who were selected in the first round and supplemental first round!

Over 3,000 players who have been drafted over the past 5 years have attended PG events. That includes about 140 first rounders. Every year the DI College World Series teams are loaded with kids who played in PG events. Do your research and then talk!

Are you suggesting that kids should not attend these events? If you are... that is flat out terrible advice you are giving to young players and parents of talented kids!

Please give examples if you want to make accusations! It's people like you that make me want to do something other than what we do. You have NO idea how much work it is or how much money it costs to do everything possible to help these kids. The divorce rate within our organization is extremely high. I'm really getting sick of the cheap shots!

quote:

Originally posted by Daddio:
I mean if you're not 6' or above, or 180 lbs or above, PG wont even come close to giving you the rating or promotion you deserve.

Look up Torre Langley's profile on the PG website. 5'9" (and I think that's a stretch) 175 lbs..PG Rating? Perfect 10. It's the talent s****d..Consider yourself debunked.

Sorry PG, as if you needed ME to stick up for you!

Actually BoBo has paid you a compliment as absurd as this sounds. He is really sayinf if you don't go to PG like events you don't have a prayer of getting drafted.
I just can't see why he is upset about that. PG does a great job and you can go where the scouts are or not. I have several friends who went to PG events and they all did better than they would have without going. I assume he has a reason for being bitter but he hasn't shared it.

PopTime,

We do need people like you who understand the truth. Thanks for understanding.

What bothers me is when there is a topic (there was one or two) that has people arguing that I am sticking up for the small players all the time. Then this thread about only recognizing big players... Which is it?... It isn't either!!!! It's all about talent!!!!