Overated v. Underated players

I don't think there's a kid out there who is ALWAYS productive in games or NEVER productive in games. Just as I don't believe there are kids who ALWAYS showcase well or NEVER showcase well. If a scout hear's about this high profile can't miss prospect and goes and sees him tank it in one game, I don't think he shuts the door on the kid. Same with showcases. If an unknown comes out of nowhere and has a huge showcase, the scout isn't going to throw a contract in front of him on the spot. In both cases they need to see a larger sample, or body of work before they commit one way or the other. Anyway, those are my thoughts.

You may may not think the player did well but coaches and scouts see things you do not---just relax

I had some great belly laughs watching the recruiting videos of some of the top prospects in the MLB draft.

Players listed as great hitters were shown swinging feebly and striking out in their video at-bats.

Strong and sharp fielders were shown making throws to first that either pulled the first baseman off the bag or were uncatchable. Other strong fielders were shown making errors on the warm up grounders hit for the video.

After attending a few minor league games, I came to see that the videos outdid the hype.

If the current crop in the Florida State League is the MLB player of the future, the game may become an oddity.

I find it really sad when the majority of MLB All Stars are playing for countries other than this one in the World Championship Series.

Do we lack talented ball players or do the scouts and recruiters have another agenda that they are promoting?

BOBO

There are very few "great" hitters and they are in the bigs

There are no great HS or college hitters---the good ones are solid hitting prospects--and who knows what will become of them as the move up the ladder

There are no great hitters in the bigs. A great hitter can hit in all facets of the game.

These kids should be hitting .400 or better to be considered a good hitting prospect for the bigs.

It really isn't about talent as I have learned. A kid like Shane Robinson should not have seen 165 players drafted before he was. The kid who hit 18 home runs in Pasco County got little to no mention.

It's all about the hype and the hypsters. I look at the current crop in Joplin looking to represent this nation in international play. Five and six errors a game does not imply in the least that these kids are the best ball players this nation has to offer.

If a talented kid does not pay the hypsters, he gets no notice. Scouts and recruiters have to get out and see the real world and not only the showcases.

How does a kid pitch two years in a row winning the highest level classification in the high school state championship not get noticed?

The system is broken and baseball is suffering for it.

I have always said that there is more hype in baseball than reality.
I don't think there is an agenda but scouts are human and it is hard to judge talent. You are often only as good as your last outing in most cases.
Most scouts look at the long ball and preach singles. I would rather face a long ball hitter than a contact hitter as a pitcher. Personally the emphasis on LB hitters is exciting but overlooks the contact guys.

The trend for scouts to go to showcases is going to hurt baseball. They no longer scoure the country to look for talent. This is a sign of the times. Usually the scouts go to look at a few players and then they leave.
If there are very few talented hitters well there are also very few talented scouts. I have been at tournaments where the good old boys retire to the beer tent and don't emmerge for hours. Some do take their job serious but they are the few.
I can't agree that the hitters should be all hitting 400+. They are facing great pitching and that will dampen the average.

The pitching they have been facing is either high school or college pitching which should pale compared to MLB pitching.

If they aren't hitting at least .400 and knocking the cover off the ball, how does one justify a million dollar signing bonus?

In those thrilling days of yesteryear, scouts would have contacts in many areas who would give a call or send a telegram if they saw a good prospect. It's a shame that high school coaches have lost either interest or credibility in the minds of the scouts. (Or they are not serving the right refreshments)

BOBO

Simple question for you--how many hitters in the "bigs" have hit over 400 in a season ?


And you want to use that as a parameter ???

Let's get real BOBO--it just doesnt happen

I would prefer .500.

Using the theory of diminishing returns, we seem to be assuminmg that the average of a hitter will drop the higher up the ladder they climb. This works out fairly well when the starting average is .300 and then drops with each successive promotion until the level of incompetence is reached.

BOBO

you are such a dreamer---get real

Who would you assess as the better hitter?

a high school senior hitting .350 or

a college senior hitting .350

Somehow the common sense of this is not shared by the powers that be.

BoBo if life were that simple.
I assume that most players improve otherwise don't bother running and working on your game.
I knew HS pitchers who would set down the best HS hitters. I also know hitters who hit poorly at the beginning of HS and were drafted in the 1st 4 rounds.
My son pitched bullpen to a guy who was drafted in the 1st round. There were 14 scouts watching and my son threw 60-70 pitches and he fouled off 3. No hits. The guy got 1st round and a bonus of 400+. He did have a great swing though. 2 years before that he was not even a blip on the radar screen. He was even cut from a rep team. I admire the work he put in to get better.
Another guy who my son faced 3 times in a game. Struckout, walked and grounded out. 4th rounder. They tell me he is a great hitter. Hit for the cycle against Duguesne U as a` 16 yo. I am not knocking this guy or the other one. I just think that there is a lot of hype. The scouts jump on the band wagon.
I once read a scouts comments on a pitcher and he said he had 12 Ks against ABC team. Anyone who knew the team would never put that in print.

WillieBobo,
You make good points if you buy into the thought that "they should find me" mentality. I could be the best car salesman on my lot, in my city, and maybe even in my State. But, unless I go to the National car shows, strut my stuff, and "hobknob" with the big fish I will not be noticed for the "bigtime". Baseball, car sales, reality, or any other occupation that is result driven with a mutitude of candidates requires that an individual has to have a level of self promotion.

quote:

A kid like Shane Robinson should not have seen 165 players drafted before he was. The kid who hit 18 home runs in Pasco County got little to no mention.

Did Shane go out and compete in events that compared him to others that were drafted ahead of him? If he did, maybe those professionals that who judge talent did not see what you profess he has. If he did not make that effort in self promotion, he should look in the mirror on who is to blame.

quote:

If a talented kid does not pay the hypsters, he gets no notice. Scouts and recruiters have to get out and see the real world and not only the showcases

It's a big real world out there and not enough scouts to look in all the corners. As a business you try to run efficiently and that is done by consolidating your products, finding the worthy ones, and follow them. In baseball that consolidation is done through events. There are those who fall through cracks but with 50 rounds on a draft, and if they have game, they will be picked. Where you get picked depends on how you promote yourself.

quote:

How does a kid pitch two years in a row winning the highest level classification in the high school state championship not get noticed?

Maybe it's a "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" issue or that player has not gone outside the box to prove himself.

quote:

The system is broken and baseball is suffering for it.

One small cog in the wheel says it's broke, the rest of the wheel thinks everything is fine and wheel still turns. Bottom line, if you want something bad enough you will work within the system and find a way to make it work for you.

Someday your issues may be addressed, but at this time the system is running smooth and the owners uses a "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mentality. Baseball is played at a higher level from corner to corner of this country and is expanding outside the borders daily while scouting numbers have remained relatively constant. A player that wants to be noticed has to make the make that world initially smaller and that is done through the showcases and events.

Shane Robinson was a star outfielder for Florida State. I'm sure he got plenty of exposure in that forum. Clearly I think his size, fairly or unfairly, made him slip in the draft. He's like 5'9", 165 lbs.

Yet Torrey Langley, a prep catcher listed at 5'8" 170 lbs. went in the third round. This kid has been hyped, probably rightfully, since Little League.

I misread WillieBobo post and thought there was a different Shane Robinson from Pasco County.
As far as why he slipped every team had a bunch of chances for him but they all had some type of an issue. In the end they are the ones who sign the checks.

I guess being named college player of the year last year by the NCAA followed by a senior year of batting .351 for FSU is not promotion enough for the one guy.

The other kid is a winner. Two years of winning the 6A state championship in Florida is a fine feather in ones' cap.

Woe unto those talented players who do not pay the hypsters.

As long as the fans continue to accept the inferior product that is being served, there will be no change. I agree with that.

The system is broken. Just look at the high priced talent on the Durham Bulls.

BoBo I have asked that question many times about a great college player going latter than a great HS player. It does make you wonder but you have all these teams who assess the talent and their needs. It is not mechanical.
Shane Roberts is a star and my son was impressed with him.

It is guys like you BOBO who make the system "broken"

What is your agenda anyway? Are you fired coach/scout who has an axe to grind?

I have to tell you the cross that you carry is heavy

quote:

Woe unto those talented players who do not pay the hypsters

If you have game you will get an opportunity to show your stuff and if you are worthy you will get paid that worth sooner or later. Your bottom line issues seem to evolve around the draft and signing money. If you get drafted in the 3rd round or the 33rd if you can play you will be given the opportunity.

quote:

As long as the fans continue to accept the inferior product that is being served, there will be no change

I don't understand the "inferior product" mentality.

quote:

The other kid is a winner. Two years of winning the 6A state championship in Florida is a fine feather in ones' cap.

Not according to those who rate players.

The showcases actually help the little guy. They help the kids that don't go to the big schools or play on travel teams. They at least can get seen. Yes, there is some cost involved. The alternative is worse.

I find it interesting that another thread is discussing the scouts rating systems. An attempt to quantify a players talent in terms of numbers.
The product is not inferior and it imperfections give it some character. I prefer tp whatch collge ball but ML is a great product. Itis a game of failure and getting bent out of shape because of its imperfections is a waste of energy.

Longtoss:

Excellent question and topic starter. To avoid it being hijacked further, let me add my 2 cents. First, my comments will be limited to middle infielders because that is what I played and know something about and that is what my son plays and so those are the players I tend to watch at showcases, etc. Compare and constrast as my High School English teacher said year ago. Second, realize that my conclusions are tenative and not yet constructed in stone because I have not seen the final outcome of my observations. However, here goes.

Overall I believe the trend to scouting at more showcases is a good thing. Not necessarily for MLB but definetly for college coaches. It has its negatives; the most egregious is that the finiancially straped families with the outstanding athelete are left out of the loop. But it provides any interested college coach an opportunity to see many players at many positions in one place at one time and competing against each other and that is a forum where the talent on display can be evaluated.

The question is what did the player's overall participation at the showcase tell that college coach. Regardless of his ability to "showcase" his skills on that day, the perceptive college coach observed the players attitude, his ability to deal with stress and, perhaps, adversity. He evaluated how the player mixed with the other players, how much of a team player he was, a potenial leader he was, etc.

It is true that many coaches are not watching for these traits. They come to the preliminaries, write down the "pop times" and the gun reading for the throws to first, some hitting and leave. Others come to the games and read the sheets on the information of the preliminary events. Then the game times come and those coaches that are still there may see a player at his best or at his worst and the evaluation is accordingly made. As PopTime has pointed out in his post, the perceptive college coach will know this fact and will want to "see a larger sample or body of work before they commit one way or the other" to the player. How many coaches go through all these hoops. I would say not many.

And, as a result, you have the situation WillieBobo describes. Players with great pop times and gun times to first that make an accurate throw one out of 4 times on their best day. That, by the way, is a fielding % of .750 which should be unacceptible to anybody. But, say the defenders, you can teach a 17 year old boy to throw more accurately: you can't teach him to throw harder. WRONG AGAIN BOZO BREATH. The perceptive college coach will understand from watching the player whether he can get his arm speed up with better mechanics, etc or whether it will be dificult to improve the accuracy for the 85 MPH guy who has no range and and can't consistently catch a ball backhanded in the hole.

Reader of this posting. Will your son be evaluated by such a coach at a baseball showcase near you? Doubtful but enough in the realm of possibility that it is worth the risk. Because the preceptive college coach is the one you want your son to play for.

I'm just an old baseball fan who knows how the game should be played.

What we are being served is not high level baseball.

Even ARod now understands why a good hitter will hit the other way with runners on first and second.

The scouts and GM's are not signing prospects for the most part. They are signing prayers.

Hundreds of players are drafted each year and hundreds are let go each year.

MLB clubs are expanding minor league operations outside of the USA. They seem to realize that they are better off paying less for these 'prospects' in poverty stricken nations.

If you want a real taste of the kids the hypsters are promoting as the nations best, just keep tabs on the Tournament of Stars in Joplin. In my day, an All Star team did not make five or six errors a game. Neither were they ever blown out by ten runs or more. But the hypsters rule the game, and the game is less for it.

There are free team camps and scouting bureau camps all over the US and Canada. I have seen guys who play a couple years of college ball with no pro interest get signed after a pro camp.

BOBO

What is your agenda?


Are you related to Ramrod ?

BoBo,

I think one of the "Organizational Tall Trees" that you refer to in your signature dropped a limb and bonked your noggin'. You've completely lost me. Later

quote:

Woe unto those talented players who do not pay the hypsters.

Is this a shot at showcases? If not, what exactly are you trying to say?

Not a shot at showcases at all.

A shot at the organizations who promote only those who attend their showcases.

When given a say in objectively selecting the elite players, any and all organizations who only promote those who fatten their pockets would be in essence cheating all who do not attend.

Lazy scouts who only attend showcases and do not go the extra mile in seeking out possible major league talent are cheating the game.

Scouts who do not run camps in areas with the suggested players from the area high schools are cheating the game.

There was a kid in Oklahoma who was not hyped but a teammate was. When the scout attended to see the teammate, he noticed this kid hitting the ball out of the park. If the scout would have just ignored this kid since he was not there to scout him, Mickey Mantle may have never played major league baseball.

BOBO\


Post your credenials to say what you say

The only credential I need is a ticket stub.

I still have one from a game that Righetti pitched a no hitter.

If BOBO sees ticket stub as a credential that even disturbs me more---the man shows no credentials and spews what he spews---what does he know---I was at the first game Willie Mays played in the Polo Grounds--that aint no credential


Daddio--I wont get into your post regarding PG but I know what we do-- size does not enter into the equation- academics and talent does

I've seen PG give pretty good ratings to undersized kids based on projectability. I'm not going to get into this dogfight again. I think showcases are a vital tool for scouts and recruiters. Has it made the process a little lazy on the part of the scouts? Maybe some. But listen to scouts and recruiters and they just don't have the budgets to get all the places they used to get. And scouting staffs are being cut to the bone by some teams. Unfortunately i think what happens is some kids who deserve a look will get missed. I think the days of finding that "diamond in the rough" are over unless prospects and parents know how to play the game. Yes, that means showcasing and marketing and not waiting around to be discovered. Heck, that's what we all hoped for when I was playing baseball back in the 70's. If you weren't blue chip, you prayed for a miracle. It doesn't have to be that way anymore.

Posted by Daddio

quote:

In todays day and age don't you think maybe it is getting somewhat justified? I mean if you're not 6' or above, or 180 lbs or above, PG wont even come close to giving you the rating or promotion you deserve. To them, size ia all that matters to them these days. Are they really **** justice to the many talented kids that are not of that size?

Are showcases these days promotion tools or are they money makers? Certainly a topic of discussion for a long time. With the addition of BBWebTv and Crosschecker, don't you think that issue for PG has gotten even more clouded?

Daddio,

Please do some research before making accusations. And are you saying things like Crosschecker and Baseballwebtv are somehow BAD for the young players today?

Two of our highest ranked 07 prospects are about 5'10" or 5'11". We ranked 6'0" Scott Kazmir #1 in his high school class over the BIGGER boys! Lastings Milledge, Andrew McCutchen, Jeremy Jeffress, John Drennen, Jeremy Hellickson, Kasey Kiker, Derrick Robinson, Torre Langley, etc., etc., etc. All less than 6 foot tall!

Oh yea!!! I forgot they all paid us! That's why we promoted them! Thanks for telling us because I thought it was because of their talent.

Listen, I get pissed when people just don't get it!!!! We do not play favorites! Talent is what counts!!! 952 of the 1502 players drafted this year attended PG events. 27 of the first 30 players picked. 38 who were selected in the first round and supplemental first round!

Over 3,000 players who have been drafted over the past 5 years have attended PG events. That includes about 140 first rounders. Every year the DI College World Series teams are loaded with kids who played in PG events. Do your research and then talk!

Are you suggesting that kids should not attend these events? If you are... that is flat out terrible advice you are giving to young players and parents of talented kids!

Please give examples if you want to make accusations! It's people like you that make me want to do something other than what we do. You have NO idea how much work it is or how much money it costs to do everything possible to help these kids. The divorce rate within our organization is extremely high. I'm really getting sick of the cheap shots!

quote:

Originally posted by Daddio:
I mean if you're not 6' or above, or 180 lbs or above, PG wont even come close to giving you the rating or promotion you deserve.

Look up Torre Langley's profile on the PG website. 5'9" (and I think that's a stretch) 175 lbs..PG Rating? Perfect 10. It's the talent s****d..Consider yourself debunked.

Sorry PG, as if you needed ME to stick up for you!

Actually BoBo has paid you a compliment as absurd as this sounds. He is really sayinf if you don't go to PG like events you don't have a prayer of getting drafted.
I just can't see why he is upset about that. PG does a great job and you can go where the scouts are or not. I have several friends who went to PG events and they all did better than they would have without going. I assume he has a reason for being bitter but he hasn't shared it.

PopTime,

We do need people like you who understand the truth. Thanks for understanding.

What bothers me is when there is a topic (there was one or two) that has people arguing that I am sticking up for the small players all the time. Then this thread about only recognizing big players... Which is it?... It isn't either!!!! It's all about talent!!!!

Bobblehead- I agree I think somehow Bobo complimented PG, but he wasn't targeting them. he was targeting "the system". Bobo, what's wrong with people trying to make it easier for people to get exposed? PG and College Select and all these organizations, their main goal is to provide the absolute best opportunity for the players they are involved with. Does it cost money? Yes. Is that unfortunate for someone who maybe can't afford it? Yes, of course. There's no denying that it costs a hefty sum to attend a PG National Showcase or go to a College Select Tournament event. But that's all part of the game. How many organizations 40 years ago could post the numbers that PG does? None, because there wasn't any. Scouts went around searching for players and who knows, maybe there wa s aplayer out there that they didn't see but should have. Now, with all the showcases, etc. those few people who play for the ******, small high school team and can't find a quality summer team within 3 hours of their house or can't afford the prices can go to a showcase. Because in the beginning at a showcase, everyone is equal. If you throw a 95 mph fastball, there's no difference between Miami, FL or Bumble**** Montana. The scouts will see.

So Bobo, if you don't like the "system", stop complaining and moaning about it and change it

I don't see how some have come to the conclusion that I am bashing organizations such as PG or Colege Select. The level of competition at both of their events is a great test of the ability of the competitors.

The problem of which I speak is the same problem that gave rise to the need for organizations such as these.

The first step in bringing about change is making known that there is a problem and a need for change.

Scouts and recruiters should have a system by which they maintain conatct with high school and local organizational teams. This is what they are being paid for.

Coaches should be doing all the same testing at their practices that PG and others do at their showcases. A record should be kept for each player and their abilities and progress while in the program. Sadly, they aren't for the most part. Worse still, some may hype a player beyond that players ability to perform.

The initial topic is about over-rated and under-rated players. When those who are the 'raters' become limited to the degree that they are today, many talented players will be made to suffer.

Willie,

There will always be overrated and underrated players - that is just the way it is.

In most cases - it also makes it fun to follow - and if you have the time - to follow closely.
I have gotten a kick out of it the last 6 years or so. Is there alot of BS - Sure - but there is also alot of excellent talent identification going on as well IMO.

Young kids today have much more opportunity to be seen by the right people (college or pro) than they did just 20 years ago or so.

The PG's and College Selects and the rest of the good ones provide that opportunity. Fact is - that just didnt exist years ago. As for the cost - as Beenthere loves to say - cut back on the beer and cigarettes for a week or two and send your kid somewhere. That is all it takes.

As for relying on high school coaches - let me just say this - when you hear about a kid that hit .450 in high school and made all county and all state etc...- then look closely and find out he played 25% of his games against "Our Lady of Perpetual Losing" and got 70% of his hits against that squad - you quickly realize the fallacy of that strategy. It just doesnt work anymore.

It is no different here than it was in NY IMO.

Personally - I think the kids with desire have a much better chance of getting opportunities than they did 20 years ago - and a large part of that has happened because of the PG's of the world.

Just my opinion.

Here I go showing my age again.

It has been my opinion that baseball has been in steady decline since the draft was instituted.

In the years previous, good local players were selected to represent various local organizations such as the Masonic Temple, Knights of Columbus, Shriners and others. These organizations were national and most scouts were affilliated with one or another. These groups were the usual conduit to the big leagues.

On a side note, these players were also judged by their character on and off the field as well as their ability to play the game.

Willie,

The only things that seriously hurt baseball in the last 25 years was - IMO - as follows:

1) AstroTurf - a total disaster.
2) The Aluminum bat.
3) Steroids.

And baseball has - and will continue to - overcome everything thrown at it.

None of this stuff can beat the game.

The first most glaring changes after the draft were outfielders with weak arms, batters who couldn't bunt and the re-invention of the minor leagues.

The aluminum bat was first introduced as a bat that wouldn't crack, warp, break or wear out. Once the mandate that youth players must use aluminum, manufacturers found ways to make the bats breakable and more expensive.

Willie: I see what you mean, but in a sense wouldn't the draft expose the players that are over/under rated? Even though it might mean a disaster for the team(s) that drafted these players, in the end it will show who really rose to the top. You look at guys like Pujols, drafted in the 13th round out of a small JC in Missouri in 1999. He probably got a few thousand dollars to sign. He's now the best hitter in the game. You look at a guy like Colt Griffin, drafted 8th overall in 2001, got something like 2.4 million dollars to sign. He's still in double A I believe. Under rated and over rated. The draft helps expose who is truly the best, it's just a matter of the success rate in that a team can figure that out.

The only thing that actually exposes who is the best or even able to compete is playing the game.

High money draft choices are usually kept around on a hope and a prayer that the fellow who claimed that he could turn that player into a whiz kid will.

The low and no money draft picks are dumped quickly if they do not compete well.

The draft only has merit for the smart player who can get as much money up front as possible.

There was a kid drafted in the 62nd round one year as a favor to a former major leaguer. Without that favor, Mike Piazza may have never played pro ball.

I've been wanting to vent about that very thing for a while now. That happens all the time in the lower rounds. A kid gets drafted because he's a friend of a friend or something. The RedSox a couple of years ago drafted Nick Francona in like, the last round i think. They knew Nick (Terry's kid, Tito's Grandkid) was going to UPenn or Villanova or something like that, and Theo Epstein came out and said we did it basically for fun. Pretty much admitted they wasted the pick to draft the coach's son, an unsignable player. You know what? Being drafted in the 45th-50th round may not mean a lot to management and players with college eligibility left. But it sure would have been nice to draft a player who really deserves it. Maybe a college senior's last chance to be drafted. If for nothing else than to give him something to tell his kids about someday. Nick Francona will most likely be drafted again, but many of those kids who were passed over (college seniors) lost out basically due to nepatism. There, I'm done venting.

quote:

...but many of those kids who were passed over (college seniors) lost out basically due to nepatism.

Good point PopTime but I think you have to look at the only thing lost in that type situation is a kids name cannot be searched on the internet by his kids years down the road. Keep in mind..

A number of teams pass on the draft after round 45. What's worse a team that shuts the book or one that selects a player who is basically unsignable?

If a player has tools he can still be an undrafted Free Agent. The kid taken in the late rounds is probably only getting a bus ticket and lunch as a signing bonus and both are at the bottom of the food chain.

My son was drafted out of High School but before the draft said he was going to go to school unless they met his bottom dollar offer 1 Bizillion dollars. His draft stock dropped like a lead balloon but he was selected. Their point was you never know what might change between draft day and the first day of school. On the surface the Francona point wreaks of nepatism, but, if the Red Sox filled their minor league needs why not take a longshot. It wasn't like they were selecting his daughter.

Actions like wasting draft picks shows one of two things, either there was not enough talent to merit serious consideration for every pick, or there was not enough effort extended by the scouting department to notice enough quality ball players.

The worst inference drawn is that there is not enough talent to merit at least one player from every college for minor league consideration.

High school players drafted, with the exception of pitchers, are usually drafted as not MLB material at their current positions.

I think that you are intentionally trying to ruin a good discussion. Your thoughts are those of a man who at one point felt slighted and you now carry a grudge. Don't you find it unusual that there is very little support for any of your thoughts? The game, players, and the draft have evolved, but you refuse to evolve with it. The professional product is good, you do not own a team, you do not understand todays economic dynamics, and you cannot dictate business rules. WillieBobo you contiue to talk of the old days, they are gone, enjoy the game as it evolves before it destroys you.

Later bobo.

The current game is as washed out as basketball has been for years.

Just as basketball became a game of lay-ups and disregard for the rules of play, baseball has been winding down that same path.

Basketball has woken up with the resurrgence of defense and outside shooting while baseball is still meandering aimlessly.

Major League Baseball is destroying itself. I lost interest in the game back when runners could jog home from third on a fly ball.

Now the game is merely a learning tool for children to see what not to do in most cases.

The saddest result of the poor quality of the game is that children too often emulate the poor play.

Willie,

Maybe you are just watching some lousy games.

The ones I have been watching in HS/College/and the minor league are as exciting as ever.

Yes - I hate the metal bat - but I think the game is doing just fine.

I find the better games at the HS and college levels. I still attend minor league games but am usually saddened at the weak play.

I have begun to follow the progress of some of the Florida players in the minors because I have seen them as quality ball players.

quote:

Originally posted by rz1:
If a player has tools he can still be an undrafted Free Agent. The kid taken in the late rounds is probably only getting a bus ticket and lunch as a signing bonus and both are at the bottom of the food chain.

I'm just going to ignore the Bobo comments because his road always leads back to the same place. rz1, my point was that if you're going to pick a kid in the late late rounds for sentimental reasons, why not pick a kid that it would really, truly mean something to. Nick Francona didn't need that kind of thrill. The kid grew up in major leagues clubhouses! I actually think he probably felt kind of awkward about it. I remember thinking that when someone asked Terry about it in an interview. He seemed almost uncomfortable with the whole thing. If I'm sounding like someone who knows a kid who went undrafted that year, who really really wanted a shot, you're right. And after the draft he had to listen to Theo tell the world that it was a throwaway pick because it was Francona's son. He eventually signed a free agent deal months and months later (and for some reason now is back in the Independant Leagues), and I'll bet you anything the thrill of signing that contract wouldn't hold a candle to sitting at the computer on MLB.com that first week in June and hearing your name called. Ok, I'm REALLY done venting now.

quote:

It wasn't like they were selecting his daughter.

Just a side note, back in the 1993 draft, Carey Schueler who was the daughter of then-Sox GM Ron Schueler was drafted in the 43rd round by the White Sox.

Also, a friend of my son who should have been drafted this year out of our local DII signed a free agent contract with the Red Sox a couple days after the draft.

quote:

Originally posted by FrankF:
Just a side note, back in the 1993 draft, Carey Schueler who was the daughter of then-Sox GM Ron Schueler was drafted in the 43rd round by the White Sox.

See? A wasted pick when there were 1,000 kids out there waiting for the call. And congratulations to the young man who signed with my beloved Sox. Still probably wasn't as thrilling as getting drafted though.

quote:

my point was that if you're going to pick a kid in the late late rounds for sentimental reasons, why not pick a kid that it would really, truly mean something to.

PopTime, Deep breaths . I definitly see your point and I think it comes down to what side of the fence are you sitting on.

If the Red Sox wanted a particular player they would have selected him over Francona. However, these teams spend a lot of pre-draft time figuring out the board, the numbers they need to fill, and what they want to financially support.

Sentimental reasons cost you nothing. Filling a bench spot is not a cheap venture if you make a pick just to pick. If a team does not feel you have value why should they support you. What they do with their picks is dar bidness.

MLB teams are like family and there are decisions within families that we cannot question. If Terry or Nick Francona wanted to nix the pick they could have. When all was said and done publicly they were uncomfortable, but as a Family they felt justified. There again not our bidness, this was a Red Sox family decision.

God forbid, if something ever happened near term to Nick that ended his career he could always say that he was drafted by his team, the Red Sox. Sometimes what you have experienced through others in the past is not the same as experiencing it yourself. Nick was a deserving pick who if he was a "Joe" would have gone earlier.

Ok rz, I'll calm down. Just struck a bit of a nerve. But I'm glad you see my point.

I also see your point. It's a very good point!

That said, I just want to say that Nick Francona is a very projectable LHP. He wasn't drafted for signing purposes and whoever they would have picked in that spot wouldn't have been drafted for signing purposes.

Once a player is drafted a contract must be offered. If a club does not need or want any more players, they quit drafting or pick players who are not going to sign.

One last comment regarding this topic. (Over Rated and Under Rated players)

It has been my experience that 99% (Maybe higher) of all parents feel their son is at least somewhat Under Rated!

In fact, I can’t think of a single person who has ever argued that their son is Over Rated!

PG

That is the truth !!!!

I am wonder what % of those people you make a living off ? I am thinking 99.9%. Do you turn away the useless ones ?
That is a cheap shot in my opinion from a guy I didn't expect it from. I guess you are stil pissed.

I think PG's quote is pretty accurate.

The more interesting question would be - how many of those parents are ultimately - correct?

LOL

My parents thought I was over rated and my MOM still thinks so

Allthough this does not concern recruiting, there are two types of baseball parents.

One type wants their kid to play ball no matter what their talent level.

The second type is level headed about their child's ability and will ask what rationale is being used to determine that the kid starting before their child is better.

Rational explanations are easy. One can point to hitting or fielding stats. One can point to the won-loss record when that child plays.

What irks me in this day and age is that many times players are determined to be better because they are closer to some illusory perfect player.

In my view now and forever, the only thing that matters is how good a player performs between the lines. All the potential in the world won't get you outs or runs scored.

Another pet peave of mine is the decnt hitter with no defense. I have seen more teams willing to have their shortsop lead their team in errors. Unless a team can score to make up for those errors, those errors will lead to losses.

Wherever I have played, a player had to bring a glove and a bat. If a guy couldn't play the field, we had little use for that player.

TRHit is definitely not Over Rated.

He can dance, he can sing - and he can cook - with the best of them.

I give him a 10.

I just got back from watching a few innings of what you call rec ball. Juniors with no prospects of going anywhere in the sport. Some of them I have know for years. Some were great at early stages, some still hit huge bombs. I actually enjoy it not for the caliber of ball but these guys play because they love the game. They laugh and have fun. No discipline or pretense just fun. People always ask me why I would watch what is really painful baseball and I like watching them have fun and seeing my son's old friends. I love being at the ball park with the lights and talking to the parents.
I can't explain why my son got so involved in baseball. Would I have seen him going far from home to play NCAA baseball and wanting to face the best teams in North America ? Not at all. I used to underrate him and now I am wondering how far he can go.
I think most parents get discouraged at times and your son will tell you when if ever he wants to hang up his cleats. I think it is very easy to label parents as overrating their kids when in fact they are being supportive. I truely loved watching my son develope over the years. Some of the best memories I could imagine. I don't blame any parent for being supportive and perhaps blinded by the glow. My rating is not the one that counts.
I can see where coaches get a sick feeling dealing with parents. I see over zealous parents at ball games who think their son is much better than he is in my opinion and I do understand how coaches feel.

Bobble,

It took me a long time to figure it out - but it finally clicked.

After all the BS - I just enjoy watching my kids have a good time - enjoying new experiences the game affords them - and trying their best.

When they do well - I feel good - and when they dont do well - I feel bad - and wish them luck for the next day.

At this point - I couldnt give a rats *** what anybody rates my kids - or what anybody says about their abilities or their play. Most havent a clue what the hell they are talking about anyway - or even worse - have other motives.

It is so simple - and I was staring at it for a long time and never seeing it.

Now - I see it - and I enjoy watching and/or listening to both boys more than ever. Good or bad. It is fun.

To follow up on some great insights from Its:
When our son got to college, we began watching a lot of college baseball. Some things I realized:
1. To play college baseball,and beyond, you need to be very good;
2. I was never good enough to play at that level or, more importantly, to recognize the mental and physical skills/discipline required to play at that level;
3. Good players at that level make the game look relatively easy, when it is anything but easy;
4. In little league, high school, and summer leagues, many of us, especially me, measure success by hits, homeruns and BA for hitters/strikeouts, ERA and wins for pitchers.
5. We carry the little league philosophy too long and similarly carry completely unrealistic expectations;
6. When I finally realized how hard it is to play the game of baseball, at levels I never had the ability, I recognized the joy is in the difficulty of the game and the skills/ability/persistence/effort/courage/mental effort your son puts in, day in and day out.
From that day forward, whenever it finally sunk in, I have loved watching the game of baseball. I am a much better parent of a player because, finally, I cherish watching him knowing hits and BA are very important to him, and ultimately, they need to be. For me, they are irrelevent. I watch in awe that he has earned the opportunity play a game that requires mental and physical skills so very few possess...... especially me.
7. I wish I knew this when he was in little league. I would have been a much better baseball parent and had a lot less anxiety when I watched him or "tried" to be his coach.

infielddad-
Outstanding post!
Well put.....

Agree with Bobble, Its, and Infield (if I may call you that ).

Hopefully this won't come off as bragging as that is not my intent. It's just to show how someone (and I'm sure there are hundreds of stories just like his) can attain a goal without "knowing the right people" or always being in the "right places at the right times". Of course he's had great men who have helped him along the way, but I'd like to think there was Someone watching over him .

Coming from Pueblo which isn't exactly a "hotbed" for baseball players, my son excelled LL all through HS. I had an idea that he could hold his own at Dartmouth. When he had his chance to play at the Cape was when I wondered how he would fare considering he had never played against that many quality players in one venue. I suppose you could say I was "under rating" him. I've never been known to have those "rose colored" glasses on. Now he's taken it to the next level and I still wonder how he is going to fare. Believe it or not, he has had to work every step of the way to get where he is. Nothing has been "handed" to him. How far he goes is still up in the air, but after it's all said and done, he will be able to sleep at nights knowing he gave it his all. And in the end, isn't that all we can ask of ourselves.

quote:

One last comment regarding this topic. (Over Rated and Under Rated players)

It has been my experience that 99% (Maybe higher) of all parents feel their son is at least somewhat Under Rated!

In fact, I can’t think of a single person who has ever argued that their son is Over Rated!

Post by Bobblehead

quote:

I am wonder what % of those people you make a living off ? I am thinking 99.9%. Do you turn away the useless ones ?
That is a cheap shot in my opinion from a guy I didn't expect it from. I guess you are stil pissed.

Unfortunately you didn't understand. I really hate to see the "make a living off of" comment. I could really care less about that. Once again, It's the kids not the money that keeps me motivated to put up with the hell we live in.

That said... I include myself in the comment made above. Let me know the next time you hear a parent who thinks their son is Over Rated! Isn't it human nature to think your son is under rated at least sometimes?

The highest rated player over the past several years was Justin Upton. They paid him 6.1 million. Not once did I hear his parents say he was Over Rated. However, even on this messageboard I saw where some think Justin was Over Rated.

My comments were not about right or wrong... Just an observation that I thought everyone could easily understand. There is absolutely nothing wrong about a parent Over Rating their children. Guess you could say Under Rating them could be a problem.

PG,

I think the only way you can avoid some of that stuff is to continue doing the great things you and your staff are doing - and simultaneously sell your house and move into a van down by the river.

LOL

This is great stuff. You are the lucky ones.
It is natural to try to rate your son because you are always competing to make a team or a starting position. I leave the coaching to the coach and rating to the guys like PG and scouts who rate players and sit back and enjoy every minute of the experience. At the end of the day the most important rating is how are sons rate us.

At the end of the day the only ratings/rankings that matter are the pro scouts who are talking to you in terms of the draft and the college coaches who are striving to get you to attend their program---other than that nobody matters--not what is in the media--not what shows up on the internet--- that is all "fluff"--- the bottom line is who is talking to you regularly

PG I believe you are one of the good guys. We all understand what you go through. I see parents at ball parks interfering because their son is not getting the treatment they think he deserves. You provide a great service and I believe from the players I know that they probably would not be where they are today with out PG.
What we are discussing is reality. You are going to have these types of parents. My point is that without parents who have hopes and dreams for their sons that we may consider overrating them, businesses like yours would have fewer players to rate. Elite teams who have less players and so on. We should not knock these parents but set up systems to keep them from interfering in their sons affairs.

Frank that isn't bragging that is being a proud dad.
I talked to a Tampa Bay scout a few months back who is in the NY area. He had given me his card at a Long Island tournament and I was updating him as he asked me to do. We talked for over an hour and laughed and just enjoyed the talk about baseball. His son went to UNC and he is like most parents and got put in his place by the coach for interferung. He told me to stay out of my sons business while at school and I assured him I learned my lesson years ago. My son put me in my place.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
We should not knock these parents but set up systems to keep them from interfering in their sons affairs.

Agree - I would recommend a combination of Straight-jackets and sturdy police barricades.

LOL

TR,

I agree with that. What the recruiter or scouting department thinks, is what's most important.

However... As a test... I wish people would take our current rankings of 07 and even 08 grads on pgcrosschecker and check to see what happens to those ranked players.

We will release our new list before the colleges can officially recruit the players. Granted we will miss some, but I talk to too many college coaches who follow those rankings closely to think they don't matter. Truth is, we've had college coaches ask us to not rank a player they're interested in too high. We've also had scouts ask the same thing. This is because the rankings tend to draw major interest.

There are area scouts who tell people they don't follow these lists, but does anyone really believe that??? What would happen if an area scout didn't turn in a report on a player who turned out to be the best one in their territory.

Let's face it... It all starts by being identified. If a player has talent and is identified by reputable people... Doors open quickly in most cases.

This does not mean the door is shut for those not yet identified by us. But somewhere... somehow... somebody... has to identify the player as having talent.

We just did our National Showcase. As always, we used our ranking lists to invite players. We have identified these players as being very good prospects and nearly all of them attended.

Pretty much every top college recruiter not playing in the College World Series showed up in Fayetteville Arkansas to see these players. Nearly all, if not every, MLB club was present as well. The Atlanta Braves had 11 scouts there including their Scouting Director.

Some 300 scouts, college coaches and agents over the weekend. On last Saturday we had lots of rain and the schedule was moved back 3 1/2 hours. We counted well over 100 recruiters and scouts still in the park at 2 o'clock in the morning. At 8 o'clock Sunday most of the 300+ were back again. Absolutely no scout or college coach left Arkansas disappointed.

It all started with a rankings list! As it turned out, a very important list.

I don't like doing these lists, but they have become a big part of scouting and recruiting. A few years back we moved a Kansas pitcher who was fairly unknown into the top 30 or so in the rankings. His very next start saw 8 MLB Scouting Directors and about a Dozen crosscheckers at the game in a small town in Kansas. He ended up being a 2nd round draft pick. It is our business to know who the top players are in amateur baseball.

PG, how much promotion do you give a quality antendee at one of the PG Tournaments as compared to an attendee at a PG Showcase?

I only ask because you make mention of the success of players who have attended either PG showcases and/or PG events.

having gone through the process once unless your throwing in the high 90's ,you probably won't get (found) by anyone.these showcases are a big part of todays recruiting,at some schools it's their only recruiting.as with metal bats and the dh,this is how the recruiting game has changed.from everything i've seen over the last 6 years it's worth every dime.and we never attended one of pg's events.i'm convinced it would have made the road a little easier.

as for wasted draft picks.two teams i talked with only needed to sign 20 players from the draft.they picked 50 signed 20.yet they still needed to fill two rosters.so the free agents show up from dr,australia etc.i have to think more than these two teams do this?that may explain why the second day of the draft they reel off names so fast it sounds like they are making them up.but i think the lesson again is the free agents are happy with three hots and a chance to play.no draft,no big money.just a chance.to some thats enough.
a big business disguised as a boy hood dream

Willie,

Regarding the rankings we've done for the past 13 years... It doesn't matter if a highest level prospect attends a PG Showcase, a PG Tournament or even if they don't attend a PG event. We rank players on our opinion of their ability, not by which events they attend. Example - We ranked Phil Hughes in our top 10 a couple years ago.

The important thing is that we see the player. Obviously the easiest way to grade a player is by seeing him in both Showcase format and playing in a tournament. In most cases that is what happens.

If we see a top prospect in another event or tournament, we try hard to get him to a PG Showcase. For example, we picked up a few players who attended our National Showcase last week in Arkansas by scouting the Sun Belt Tournament.

Thank you for the response.

It justs adds to my respect for your program and all that you do for youth baseball.

quote:

Originally posted by WillieBobo:
It justs adds to my respect for your program and all that you do for youth baseball.

Huh? Weren't just bashing PG a while back?

Nope.

I can disagree, but bashing PG and their tournaments is not me.