Overinvolvment

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
One thing about contracts--they not break proof---and if the player/parents breaks the contract what is your recourse?--to sue them?

The recourse would be dismissal from the team.

Like I stated, Coach Miller's "player/parent" agreement worked like a charm for our program.

He had a 1-on-1 meetings with both player and parents as he discussed the contract. I thought it was one of the best things that I have ever seen.

It eliminated any problems before the season even started.

For those who would like to see it and use it, follow this link:

Copy of Winchester Post 21's Player/Parent agreement contract

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
--I am not even sure of the legalities of such a contract--

Most of them really aren't contracts, because they usually don't outline a mutual agreement between two parties - they usually only outline a list of rules for the player/parents to follow. (Notice in the example above, the coaches don't even have a place to sign.)

But I don't think there's really anything wrong with them(whatever they really are), especially since they're really not useful for real litigation. For some young people, I think its a good exercise to more formally recognize that both a commitment and a standard of behavior is expected.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach Milburn:

The recourse would be dismissal from the team.

But the Coach has that recourse anyway.

I'd never sign one of those. It's not a real contract and it's one-sided.

zomby


How do you feel about handshakes?

Zombywoof,
It is a lot like the "contracts" that doctor's offices sometimes make people sign in order to get medical attention. They are signed under duress. The lawyers can comment on the validity of such a contract.

TR,
Handshakes are fine and in my mind binding "contracts", but there's a difference between a travel program and a HS program. If you aren't willing to abide by the rules of a summer program you can always go somewhere else. If you aren't willing to abide by some inappropriate rule at a HS program you usually don't have the option of going somewhere else without incurring significant hardship.

It is a bit like the charity ruling they just came down with in MLB. Owners can no longer force players to give to their charities but they can put it in a free agent's contract because the free agent usually has the option of going somewhere else.

CaDad

Let me ask you this--in HS if you don't what the english teacher gives you as an assignement do you not do it--do you transfer--c'mon now--kids have to learn to handle what they face--not run from it

And HS athletes has an alternative--NOT PLAY---

Here is an example I experienced with my last son--he stopped playing baseball as a 16 year old due to the pressure he was feeling from the coaches because of his brothers fame--he simply did not want to go thru being " the brother"--guess what !!!- he is fine--there were no consequences--he got his degree, is now a 5th grade teacher and also a member of a deep sea fishing team in Florida with his own boat and on the front page of their website---that is one heck of a consequence isn't it??

And by the way the rule is not inappropriate, at least in my book, if it is the coaches rule--the coach is the captain of the ship---perhaps that comes from having a Dad who was a Lt Col, in the Army and retired after 20 years-- the word is AUTHORITY and you don't need "contracts' or "oieces of paper" to enforce it

In cases where an English teacher assigns reading material which the parents find offensive the school administration will usually make some accomodation for the student.

I'm happy that your son has done well without baseball, but that isn't the case with everyone, at least not in the short term.

There's a thing called misuse of authority. There are kids who have died as a result. How many times did parents stand by in the past while football coaches killed kids by running them to death in the heat in the name of authority? There are baseball coaches who abuse their authority though hopefully to a lesser degree.

Mindless obedience to authority has led to some of the greatest abuses in history, including within the military.

My uncle and his family spent years in a concentration camp as a result of mindless obedience to authority. Then he went and served his country which had placed him in a concentration camp, in Korea on the front lines.

It's the coach's rule.

TR, I won't fuel this fire any but to say this.

It's a free country and we are all given the choice to do whatever we feel is necessary and/or in our best interest.

If you want to operate your business and/or teams on a handshake, more power to you bigboy.

If a coach on here wants to handle his team with a contract and/or agreement with his players that spell out his expectations of the players and parents as well as what they can expect from him, more power to them.

There's more than 1 way to skin this cat.

When I had a travel team from 11U to 16U we had contracts. The purpose was acknowledgement of expected player and parental behavior. It listed reasons and process for potential removal from the team. It stated if a player quit or was removed in midseason the uniform became property of the team. The only purpose was so a player or parent could never say "I didn't know that."

My son's high school team also has a contract I would consider more of "an understanding" of expected conduct. Three years ago the coach took over a program the previous players and parents ran roughshod over the prior coach. The contract is more of an understanding there's a new sheriff in town and the rules have changed.

Showcase ball is a different animal. The players are there with a real purpose. It's too late in the process to be playing games with the coaching staff.

RJM,
That's how I think of these "contracts". They are an acknowledgement that you've read and understand the rules. It can be useful for the coaches and school administration and for the parents and players.

Again I say this---this site is for discussion and expression of opinions---all of sudden I express an opinion and we have reference to relatives in concentration camps--what the h e l l is that !!!!

YGD--thanx for the "bigboy" note---the mentality of people on here at times really shows through--I never said the contracts were wrong--I simply said that I don't believe in them and I go by a handshake

Perhaps I am getting too old for this site---people don't know how to discuss or debate

quote:

If you aren't willing to abide by some inappropriate rule at a HS program you usually don't have the option of going somewhere else without incurring significant hardship.

'Inappropriate rule' is pretty wide open. We have had some parents who had some pretty strange ideas (IMO of course) of how the team should be run and what the rules should be.

They didn't get their way and their kids have all quit....

Problem solved!

quote:

If you aren't willing to abide by the rules of a summer program you can always go somewhere else. If you aren't willing to abide by some inappropriate rule at a HS program

True on the first, if you don't like it you need not "pay or play."

But for the second; what is an example of an inappropriate rule in a H.S. baseball program?

I know it's pretty liberal out your way but are you really saying the "inmates need more say in running the asylum?"

I see where tr is coming from and would have to agree that I'd much rather work off a handshake than a "contract". IMHO, an eye-2-eye handshake after the rules have been laid out and agreed upon is a tool kids should learn from. I seem to remember the handshake being a signature of "honor" and if you had to write down the rules, there was no trust between the parties. What happened to those agreements. That is the approach that I would go with parents and players. Lay it out in a public forum, hand out a copy of the rules, then in that meeting with all the players and parents present throw out your hand to each and all and ask....

"Do you agree with the rules, terms, and penalties we have discussed?"

It's funny how a public handshake can set a group straight and eliminate the grey areas of agreements and if the "shet hits the fan", the line in sand is evident to all.

A contract is cold and shallow, and a "team" should be should be built on faith and trust.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
zomby


How do you feel about handshakes?

I'm good with handshakes.

I've never claimed to be sane.



Mental is the nicest thing Ive been called today.

Thank you!

As for a HS coach making one of those pacts, it's ridiculous. The kids are playing under the coach, not the parents. I've always been consistent in my butting out of team business and when my kid played HS ball, my responsibility was to pay the pay-to play-fee and to make sure he got his annual physical and fill out any paperwork required by the school system and state. Any of these coaches guidelines can be spelled out in a preseason parents meeting when the teams are picked and the players will be around the coach plenty enough to know the rules and expectations.

Let's see, I've heard kids told to get big, and that they'll have to do something more than lift to get big. That seems inappropriate to me. If you want something really inappropriate read the link in my previous post.

quote:

Let's see, I've heard kids told to get big, and that they'll have to do something more than lift to get big. That seems inappropriate to me.

I agree. That's inappropriate but that's not a 'rule' in the usual sense.

inappropriate in terms of what?

Inappropriate in terms of PEDs.

quote:

inappropriate in terms of what?

Inappropriate to insinuate that the kids need to use drugs to get bigger...

Coaches (or anyone) can do all sorts of things that are inappropriate (jokes, language, etc.) but I thought we were discussing 'rules'...

And again, what's inappropriate is different for everyone...

One of my son's former coaches was 'fired' for telling his 14u team an 'inappropriate' joke. When I heard the story it occured to me that I had also heard him tell the joke. I thought it was a stupid, tasteless joke but not so inappropriate among a group of boys that he should be fired....To each his own....

quote:

Originally posted by CADad:
Let's see, I've heard kids told to get big, and that they'll have to do something more than lift to get big. That seems inappropriate to me. If you want something really inappropriate read the link in my previous post.

If a HS coach can't go into detail with his players in what more they have do outside of lifting, then it means he won't admit he wants them to juice up on peds and roids and should be dismissed from his coaching position immediately. While a HS coach isn't dealing with little kids, he's not quite dealing with grown professional men yet.

I wish people would go by the handshake rule these days but unfortunately there are enough people that think handshakes aren't worth anything.

Groundrules are important and if players and parents are fine knowing the rules and abiding by them without putting it down on a 'code of conduct' then that is fine. If it takes writing down the rules then that is fine too. But even in the military (and I am a 20 year retired Army Officer) the code of conduct is written down.

As for the coaches/steroids thing-Does it happen? I'm sure it has on rare occasions but we aren't talking about parents getting involved in cases when their children are put at risk. Absolutely parents should be involved if there is a physical risk to their children that falls outside the normal risk of playing the game.

But what we are talking about are parents that attent practices, interfere with coaching decisions and generally raise Cain because their kiddo either isn't getting the attention that mom or dad think he deserves more playing time or a certain position.

Should parents never watch their kids practice? I don't know. I don't know of parents going and watching their kid's band practices or HS play practices but I suppose some do. I can't imagine a play director or a band director tolerating parents interrupting a recital because Johnny didn't get first chair or the lead role yet for some reason there are parents who seem to think that it is perfectly fine to interrupt practices and games simply because they don't think their kid isn't being treated right.

Sports tend to bring parents out because they are fun to watch. I occasinally go because it is fun to watch but coaches need to coach and parents need to parent. Coaches shoudn't act like parents and parents shouldn't think they should coach.