Pastime 18U National Championship

My son's team was also at this tournament. I understand your frustration but if you read the tournament rules for all of the Pastime tournaments, you will find that the championship game is the only game that is not under a time limit.

I would agree that a two-hour limit makes it very hard to finish a game. We played in many tournament games this year that were not completed under this restriction. Most of the time, things did not go our way. I think the lesson here is that your team must start off strong and keep the lead. It sounds as if they had an opportunity to take the lead but did not capitalize on it. So hats off to your opponent and better luck next time.

Good eye,

You totally missed my point. I don't care about the outcome of the game. It is the product/service that everyone is willing to accept that frustrates me. We as parents contribute a significant amount of money into Pastime and other organizations. We should expect a comparable value for our money. Just because they have a clause in their contract doesn't make it right. It makes it legal, but not right. These organizations make a lot of money. They can play 4 complete games on 2 fields with a championship game on a separate field in a single day. It may force them to get out of bed earlier, it may force them to work 20 minutes longer, or it may force them to pay an additional fee somewhere. They just chose not too. Like I said, my son is moving onto college and I don't have to worry about this injustice anymore. But unless someone steps up and forces these BUSINESSES to be honest they will just keep collecting money from future parents and not provide the service to the kids they deserve.

I believe softball has time limits also don't they? S****r has time limits (what a cool sport with many ties and all those cute little designer balls)

But most don't read this site for softball or s****r do they!

Looked up the Pastime's website before I got on line. Wow, $850 for that 18u "NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP". That's 26% higher than any other tourney listed. But it should be cause it's a "NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP" not a regional championship or a state championship.

By that one could assume a higher level of importance; higher-grade officiating; better fields and accomodations, definitely not the norm!

While I understand a rules are rules as "Good Eye" pointed out, I guess my point is those really aren't baseball rules, they are Tom Davidson's rules (Rules page says high school rules????). And again, in a normal situation, I would stand right behind him, backing him to get all those games in, push the event for the masses!

But this was different!. This was a "NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP" game as listed on Pastime's web site.
And it was the semis!

Semifinals.....
website says 130 pm games.......
only four teams left......
two fields (Butler and UIndy).......
with a final game at Victory Field for the "NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP" on the line
at 6pm. And you call a game for time?

As an outsider, seems like this cheapened the event. Maybe those rules should be reviewed and adapted for special events such as this Tom! Getting 50+ teams for a 18u tourney was impressive. You could truly could have premiere event, so please don't blow it because of greed or laziness!

Gotta go, watching old tapes of a really good s****r match

I wish I could have passed this one up since this my first time on HSBBW for quite some time because of the summer.

Let me start with ulmdad as, again, I understand your frustration but I need to point a few FACTS out with regards to your comments.

1. The tournament director you are speaking of at Butler was ME! There was NEVER at any point in time where anyone associated with Pastime Tournaments made any statement anywhere near your false statement reading "However, the pastime management said that they were concerned with daylight and that we were upset because we were sore losers." This is an outright LIE and will be handled accordingly.

Both teams were made aware of the 2 hour time limit, NOT because of daylight, because what takes place at one field MUST take place at the other. If you would have looked at the schedule you would notice a semi-final and championship game for those teams in the consolation bracket taking place at the University of Indianapolis at 345 and 6pm. I understand that you could care less about those games and teams because they are in the consolation bracket BUT we do care and we want them to play on quality fields, which brings me to my next interesting read on your comment regarding fields:

The team you were with played on Butler University, Division 1, 4 of your 7 games with 2 of the other 3 games on one of the top high school varsity fields in the city! I'm sorry, what exactly are you complaining about, I'm confused. FYI - over 32 schools in attendance this past weekend, not included schools/scouts at fields I wasn't at!

So, in getting back to the time limit issue ... we can NOT give your game 2.5 hours to complete a game while the other field (University of Indianapolis) only received 2 hours because we wanted to make everyone's experience better by playing more games on college fields. They played under the same rules as you guys did and everyone else the entire summer. Again, I regret that a time limit affected your game but it had nothing to do with daylight and everything to do with fairness!

2. "This year the tournament director could not even get out of bed in his own home town and make it to the quarterfinal event before the game started."

Please enlighten me on this as my staff and I were up before you began sniffing the breakfast in your hotel. Please let me know when 5:30AM quarterfinals began this past weekend and where we started the other games before 5:30!?

3. "Pastime's revenue and profit reaches into the hundreds of thousands of dollars."

HAHAHA you are sadly mistaken my friend. Believe me, I wish this was as true and as easy as you make it sound. Several of us put in close to 80 hour weeks to prepare for and organize our events around the country to give the teams, parents, and players a better experience when they attend a tournament. We averaged close to 25 collegiate and/or professional scouts at each of our 17/18U tournaments across the country ... and you still make more, if not double, what we make in the entire year. I hate to burst the bubble but hosting tournaments is not as lucrative as you may think! Most of us love watching baseball, love watching players live out a dream, and love have a small chance of an opportunity to help players reach the next level of baseball by providing great competition and exposure at our events. Don't even think about trying to take away my passion and throwing me under a money bus that doesn't exist.

Further, "They can play 4 complete games on 2 fields with a championship game on a separate field in a single day. It may force them to get out of bed earlier, it may force them to work 20 minutes longer, or it may force them to pay an additional fee somewhere. They just chose not too." ...

-Out of bed at 5:30am Tuesday-Sunday my friend.
-There aren't enough minutes in the day for most of us to work another 20 minutes.
-You are right ... we chose to provide a free showcase to every player who could attend on Tuesday at Victory Field ... we chose to provide a free ticket to the Indianapolis Indians game on Thursday night to every player who could attend ... we chose to put our championship game on a AAA stadium that you clearly believe cost nothing to get ... we chose to have the some of the top officials in the region work out games, they are only college umpires with some guys that have nearly made it the major league baseball umpiring ... we chose to give out every single baseball needed to play in the event to every team participating ... we chose to do a lot of things that you may not care about but we chose to NOT cut any corners and we certainly chose to give all teams a fair and equal experience at this and every other tournament we host, PERIOD!

Lastly: "As an outsider, seems like this cheapened the event. Maybe those rules should be reviewed and adapted for special events such as this Tom! Getting 50+ teams for a 18u tourney was impressive. You could truly could have premiere event, so please don't blow it because of greed or laziness!"

Yes, greed and laziness and nothing to do with being fair to everyone involved and games yet to be played on the fields that remained. Next year we will take teams off of college fields and make them play those final games, that they've earned whether it be for the championship or consolation, on high school fields instead and have an experience on college fields pass by while the field sits empty. Again, it sucks that any game, not just this one, be called for a time limit but we attempted to please the masses and provide more games on college fields for all of our teams involved, had we not done that we would probably get some of the same treatment we are now but I will continue to stand by our rules for 2009 and look to improve them for 2010.

I am certainly 100% okay and willing to hear constructive criticism but I am NOT okay with some of the misleading, misinformed and flat out lies that were state in the above comments by a poster. You may be unhappy with what took place, we feel for your team and players more than you think, but you'll find that misrepresenting the truth is not always the best approach either. This will likely be my only post on this topic but I am assuming there was a team or two that enjoyed the event, win or lose.

My 17U team played in this tournament as well.

We only won one game, but I enjoyed the experience and once again, as this is our second Pastime Tournament, I felt the tournament was extremely well run. As far as the time limit goes, it is what it is. We all have to deal with it. I'll trust that they have legitimate reason to use it. I'm sure the tourney director doesn't prefer to have them but must. My team had to play on one of the aforementioned JV fields. The field was actually very nice, other than the small dimensions. They had not originally planned to use the field if not for early rainouts so I was surprised that the field wasn't an abomination. Even at this JV field, there were at least 5 scouts that I saw from the dugout and field at the games we played there.

Keep up the good work Pastime Tournaments.

Tom-

Can you see changing the rules to a 2:15 minute time limit? We played in one tourney this summer under these rules and always completed the games. The frustration with 2 hours is that it changes the game itself. If your team is behind, it puts you in a hurry-up mode to get the inning over with so you can go another inning. We had one case where we had runners on 2nd and 3rd with a minute left and two outs. The runner on third steals home and is called out. So we get to go to the next inning. We were down 6-2 at the time. So instead of having a chance to score a couple of runs, we have to take our chances in the next inning. This isn't the way baseball is meant to be played.

By the way, my son's team played at 3 Pastime Tournaments this summer and I found it to be very well run. Some of the fields were iffy (Concordia University in Michigan) and some of the umpires worked too many games in a day (same tourney) but we would recommend them.

quote:

Originally posted by ulmdad:
Good eye,

You totally missed my point. I don't care about the outcome of the game. It is the product/service that everyone is willing to accept that frustrates me. We as parents contribute a significant amount of money into Pastime and other organizations. We should expect a comparable value for our money. Just because they have a clause in their contract doesn't make it right. It makes it legal, but not right. These organizations make a lot of money. They can play 4 complete games on 2 fields with a championship game on a separate field in a single day. It may force them to get out of bed earlier, it may force them to work 20 minutes longer, or it may force them to pay an additional fee somewhere. They just chose not too. Like I said, my son is moving onto college and I don't have to worry about this injustice anymore. But unless someone steps up and forces these BUSINESSES to be honest they will just keep collecting money from future parents and not provide the service to the kids they deserve.

ulmdad-
Would you have taken the time to write your first post if your son's team had won? I think not.

Gosh this is neat responding to a response. I believe IT people refer to this as an endless loop. Anyway heres my last iteration...

Lastly referencing Tom's quote,"Again, it sucks that any game, not just this one, be called for a time limit but we attempted to please the masses and provide more games on college fields for all of our teams involved......".

It was the semis These were the last games on the college fields with plenty of time to get to Victory.

Regardless of what management or others think, the ones that matter are the kids and parents of these last few games. It doesn't affect the masses nor their time on the college fields.

From the responses, even ULMdad, the event went fairly well until the end. But unless your team was there on the last day of such a significant event, you truly can't understand.

It's hard to admit when you are wrong, especially when you dig in so deep Tom, but in this case you need to.

As for me, I am off to a pee-wee s.****r game this afternoon. I think we are wearing red today with black socks!

Good Eye - YES we may go back to starting games at 8:15 or 8:30am in order to give the 2 hour 15 minute time limit again. A LOT of teams and some parents are very iffy and unresponsive about playing before 9am but this would in fact alleviate some of those issues. Your field comments on the Michigan event are dead on and they will never be used again ... we were stuck with those when our host field that was used last year had to change dates to host an alumni tournament the entire weekend. That one hurt.

BaseballJustice - If you knew me you would certainly know that I will 100% admit to being wrong if I am in fact wrong. Unfortunately, in this case you just aren't seeing the big picture. YES, there was plenty of time to play the remaining portion of the semi-final games AT BUTLER and have them arrive to Victory Field in plenty of time. HOWEVER, the semi-final at U of Indianapolis has TWO more games to be played and therefore was on a two hour time limit. If you believe it is fair to have one field on a time limit but permit the other field to go for as long as they wish then WE WERE WRONG in upholding the rules that both teams agreed to before the game. Again, as an individual, a tournament host and a former coach ... there is nothing fair about having different fields with different rules. We have to keep both locations on the same page.

On a different note ... we typically start games at 9, 1115, 130, 345 and 6pm ... I do like the 2 hour 15 minute time limit, though the same issue will come up with this at some point (the game being described in this semi final game was at 2 hours 9 minutes when the top of the 6th was over so even the 2 hour 15 minute limit may not have helped). Games at 8:15, 10:45, 1:15, 3:45 and 6:15 would probably be feasible but what time would you guys now wake the boys up in order to get them to a field, say 20 minutes from your hotel, for an 8:15am start? We just don't want players getting hurt, being tired, or just not that in to the game because it is too early. Thoughts?

quote:

Originally posted by Pastime Tournaments:
I wish I could have passed this one up since this my first time on HSBBW for quite some time because of the summer.

Let me start with ulmdad as, again, I understand your frustration but I need to point a few FACTS out with regards to your comments.

1. The tournament director you are speaking of at Butler was ME! There was NEVER at any point in time where anyone associated with Pastime Tournaments made any statement anywhere near your false statement reading "However, the pastime management said that they were concerned with daylight and that we were upset because we were sore losers." This is an outright LIE and will be handled accordingly.

Both teams were made aware of the 2 hour time limit, NOT because of daylight, because what takes place at one field MUST take place at the other. If you would have looked at the schedule you would notice a semi-final and championship game for those teams in the consolation bracket taking place at the University of Indianapolis at 345 and 6pm. I understand that you could care less about those games and teams because they are in the consolation bracket BUT we do care and we want them to play on quality fields, which brings me to my next interesting read on your comment regarding fields:

The team you were with played on Butler University, Division 1, 4 of your 7 games with 2 of the other 3 games on one of the top high school varsity fields in the city! I'm sorry, what exactly are you complaining about, I'm confused. FYI - over 32 schools in attendance this past weekend, not included schools/scouts at fields I wasn't at!

So, in getting back to the time limit issue ... we can NOT give your game 2.5 hours to complete a game while the other field (University of Indianapolis) only received 2 hours because we wanted to make everyone's experience better by playing more games on college fields. They played under the same rules as you guys did and everyone else the entire summer. Again, I regret that a time limit affected your game but it had nothing to do with daylight and everything to do with fairness!

2. "This year the tournament director could not even get out of bed in his own home town and make it to the quarterfinal event before the game started."

Please enlighten me on this as my staff and I were up before you began sniffing the breakfast in your hotel. Please let me know when 5:30AM quarterfinals began this past weekend and where we started the other games before 5:30!?

3. "Pastime's revenue and profit reaches into the hundreds of thousands of dollars."

HAHAHA you are sadly mistaken my friend. Believe me, I wish this was as true and as easy as you make it sound. Several of us put in close to 80 hour weeks to prepare for and organize our events around the country to give the teams, parents, and players a better experience when they attend a tournament. We averaged close to 25 collegiate and/or professional scouts at each of our 17/18U tournaments across the country ... and you still make more, if not double, what we make in the entire year. I hate to burst the bubble but hosting tournaments is not as lucrative as you may think! Most of us love watching baseball, love watching players live out a dream, and love have a small chance of an opportunity to help players reach the next level of baseball by providing great competition and exposure at our events. Don't even think about trying to take away my passion and throwing me under a money bus that doesn't exist.

Further, "They can play 4 complete games on 2 fields with a championship game on a separate field in a single day. It may force them to get out of bed earlier, it may force them to work 20 minutes longer, or it may force them to pay an additional fee somewhere. They just chose not too." ...

-Out of bed at 5:30am Tuesday-Sunday my friend.
-There aren't enough minutes in the day for most of us to work another 20 minutes.
-You are right ... we chose to provide a free showcase to every player who could attend on Tuesday at Victory Field ... we chose to provide a free ticket to the Indianapolis Indians game on Thursday night to every player who could attend ... we chose to put our championship game on a AAA stadium that you clearly believe cost nothing to get ... we chose to have the some of the top officials in the region work out games, they are only college umpires with some guys that have nearly made it the major league baseball umpiring ... we chose to give out every single baseball needed to play in the event to every team participating ... we chose to do a lot of things that you may not care about but we chose to NOT cut any corners and we certainly chose to give all teams a fair and equal experience at this and every other tournament we host, PERIOD!

Lastly: "As an outsider, seems like this cheapened the event. Maybe those rules should be reviewed and adapted for special events such as this Tom! Getting 50+ teams for a 18u tourney was impressive. You could truly could have premiere event, so please don't blow it because of greed or laziness!"

Yes, greed and laziness and nothing to do with being fair to everyone involved and games yet to be played on the fields that remained. Next year we will take teams off of college fields and make them play those final games, that they've earned whether it be for the championship or consolation, on high school fields instead and have an experience on college fields pass by while the field sits empty. Again, it sucks that any game, not just this one, be called for a time limit but we attempted to please the masses and provide more games on college fields for all of our teams involved, had we not done that we would probably get some of the same treatment we are now but I will continue to stand by our rules for 2009 and look to improve them for 2010.

I am certainly 100% okay and willing to hear constructive criticism but I am NOT okay with some of the misleading, misinformed and flat out lies that were state in the above comments by a poster. You may be unhappy with what took place, we feel for your team and players more than you think, but you'll find that misrepresenting the truth is not always the best approach either. This will likely be my only post on this topic but I am assuming there was a team or two that enjoyed the event, win or lose.

quote:

Originally posted by BaeballJustice:
I believe softball has time limits also don't they? S****r has time limits (what a cool sport with many ties and all those cute little designer balls)

But most don't read this site for softball or s****r do they!

Looked up the Pastime's website before I got on line. Wow, $850 for that 18u "NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP". That's 26% higher than any other tourney listed. But it should be cause it's a "NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP" not a regional championship or a state championship.

By that one could assume a higher level of importance; higher-grade officiating; better fields and accomodations, definitely not the norm!

While I understand a rules are rules as "Good Eye" pointed out, I guess my point is those really aren't baseball rules, they are Tom Davidson's rules (Rules page says high school rules????). And again, in a normal situation, I would stand right behind him, backing him to get all those games in, push the event for the masses!

But this was different!. This was a "NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP" game as listed on Pastime's web site.
And it was the semis!

Semifinals.....
website says 130 pm games.......
only four teams left......
two fields (Butler and UIndy).......
with a final game at Victory Field for the "NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP" on the line
at 6pm. And you call a game for time?

As an outsider, seems like this cheapened the event. Maybe those rules should be reviewed and adapted for special events such as this Tom! Getting 50+ teams for a 18u tourney was impressive. You could truly could have premiere event, so please don't blow it because of greed or laziness!

Gotta go, watching old tapes of a really good s****r match

For National Championships, the softball organizations play 7 innings for Semifinal and final games. No time limit

quote:

Originally posted by Pastime Tournaments:


On a different note ... we typically start games at 9, 1115, 130, 345 and 6pm ... I do like the 2 hour 15 minute time limit, though the same issue will come up with this at some point (the game being described in this semi final game was at 2 hours 9 minutes when the top of the 6th was over so even the 2 hour 15 minute limit may not have helped). Games at 8:15, 10:45, 1:15, 3:45 and 6:15 would probably be feasible but what time would you guys now wake the boys up in order to get them to a field, say 20 minutes from your hotel, for an 8:15am start? We just don't want players getting hurt, being tired, or just not that in to the game because it is too early. Thoughts?

How about getting another field so that there is one less game per day per field? Or less teams per event with the same number of fields? I know I don't like getting up that early so I like 9 AM start times.

CB ... really? You can't compare a baseball game to a softball game. The game of softball goes by a ton quicker.

good eye - we are looking at that as well. We would need to stagger game times at each field though in order to give multiple teams time to get from a HS field to a college field though. 4 games/day always ends up being weird with the schedule. I like this though, just not very efficient for large tournaments.

Tom,

I think we have some common ground. Your format is based on an open entry and the pool play is used to screen the masses and develop a legitimate list of contenders much like USSSA, superseries and other open formatted organizations that host youth (masses) tournaments. I accept this principle for its good and bad qualities. One organization here in St Louis charges in excess of $3,500 per player for team fees alone and then excludes other quality teams in the area from their events as a mechanism for extracting money from the parents to participate on their team. My son wasn't developed enough as a freshmen to make the cut at their tryout, but he can compete with any of them today. The positive side to the path that life has taken us is that we don't have to fork over $3,500 per year to someone that uses his position in that manner and my son has had the opportunity to play with and be coach by some of the most professional people in baseball.

But back to my concerns. I understand the format that your business model is based on and the constraints you are working with to host these tournaments. Their is a natural divergence between quantity and quality. There is a saying in the construction business that you have time, budget, and quality. Pick any two. Based on the archieves from your web site, you started this business in 2007 with approximately 28 tournaments, with an average of 5 to 10 teams a tournament (up to 30 teams for some tournaments), which generated close to 300 total entry fees for the year. In 2008 you grew your business to approximately 38 tournaments with an average of 15 to 20 teams generating an estimated 700 total entry fees for the year. In 2009 you have approximately 68 tournaments scheduled with an average of 25 to 30 teams per tournament generating an estimated 2,100 total entry fees for this year. Contrary to what you believe, I appalled the hard work you have done. Your system is extremely organized. I believe what you have don is very IMPRESSIVE. That is what the American spirit is all about. I made the above analysis to make two points: 1) although you tried to down play it in your earlier post, your events generate a lot of JACK. You should be proud of that. But don't forget that it is the parents that finance this whole process. Our team probably spent close to $10,000 last week in Indianapolis 2) I believe you have some responsibility with that JACK you produce. I don't dispute you had 50 coaches/scouts at the event. However,those coaches won't keep coming if your priority is totally focused on quantity (masses). Furthermore, with the early round games spread out over town the most coaches I saw at one place was 3 to 4 and by the weekend when the quality gets consolidated down, most of those guys are gone. The fact that coaches primarily attend games during the week is not specific to Pastime events, but the format and the fields that pastime provides during this scouting opportunity are set up to efficiently handle the masses. Three of the four games our team would have been scouted on were played on high school fields and one was a JV field (I agree they were nice high school fields). But, hitting a 280 foot home run does not prepare an 18 year old for what he is going to see in the fall. His grandmother and sister get excited, but again no value for the college bound 18 year old. As you pointed out, we had three other games in bracket play that were played on college fields, which I think was appropriate. I don't think you should get kudos for that, I think that should be expected. The comment that I made about the college field not being impressive. That is my opinion. You host tournaments at several colleges (Oklahoma State, Arkansas St, Wichita St to mention a few that are impressive). I also don't think that St Louis University's field here in my home area is impressive either. Just my opinion. We may have different perspective of impressive based on our athletic experiences.

Back to my main point. It is my perspective that your business model is focused on developing efficient processes to please the masses and I have to tell you that you have done a pretty good job. You can't argue with the facts (2,100 entry fees in your third year is impressive). I just don't happen to believe dedicated people that devote their live to running baseball programs for 18 and 17 year old college bound players want to be processed with the masses all the time. I personally felt like having my son's semi final 18U national championship game called in the sixth inning because of time was an efficient process to handle the masses. And if I had a vote in the future, that is not how I would elect for my team to spent $10,000 dollars for the week.

Finally, we had a chance to discuss this at the field, and as you walked off. Either you are someone in your entourage did state that the justification was because of daylight and that I was just a sore loser. In hindsight, I don't believe you think that was a good comment.

One other thing, the consolation bracket did not have to be played on the college fields that you had the championship bracket playing on. That was a decision that was efficient for you. But, I don't think most 18U National tournaments would have even held a consolation bracket. I'm giving you credit for spending the extra time and money for those games. But again it is a cultural distinction (quality vs masses). The last time I remember my son being in a tournament that had a consolation bracket was before he was in high school. They also received individual trophies, even in the consolidation bracket.

ulmdad - Again, I understand some of your statements, several were far fetched and a quite off as well. Your numbers when we started in 2006 are pretty close to correct ... however, you are about 900 entry fees off for 2009. We saw just over 1200 teams in 2009, not quite anywhere near 2100 unfortunately. Don't get me wrong, we had a great year ... saw some amazing competition, had a ton of kids sign D1, get drafted, saw a few kids hit 95-97 on the mound this summer, and we had a perfect game thrown by a 16 year old in Dallas this past weekend!

We accommodate larger tournaments, or the masses as you call you, as that is what typically draws in the most scouts. Take a look at the teams that went to UNC/NC State, an amazing list of some of the top programs in the country (Indiana Bulls, Bayside Yankees, Kentucky Baseball Club, Palmetto Sand Gnats, Orlando Scorpions) ... these are programs that have been in National Championship tournaments and some have won them. There were 10 teams accepted in to the tournament and just 8-10 coaches in attendance if I understand correctly. We have hosted quite a few 10-15 team tournaments where we see 7-10 coaches and that is great BUT when we host 25-40+ teams we get triple and even quadruple the number of scouts in attendance. With that being said, we want the most scouts in attendance and we use these two field HS complexes because those coaches LOVE the setup! Scouts get to see twice as many kids without driving anywhere.

And, again and again, I'm trying to figure out how we take the "efficient" way out of things when we constantly put more games on college fields ... games that cost between $150-300+/game ... tournament hosts, not just us, probably spend more money on college and quality fields than you could imagine. Also, keep in mind that organizations like ours make it the norm to put players and teams on college fields, this wasn't the case even when we started. This trend hasn't been around for THAT long.

Again, what is efficient (I assumed you keep using this term to try and point out that we try to save as much money as possible) about putting on consolation brackets!? The consolation brackets cost thousands of dollars, just like the championship brackets, so that would not be efficient. Efficient is using the two field complexes which are among the best in the state. Efficient is not hosting more games, more umpires, more field costs, etc. We put the consolation bracket on because we have 54 teams and only 18 make it to the championship bracket. We want to put on as many games as possible for the players. We want them to play on good fields, college fields! And what 18 year old do you know of that wants or cares about a personal trophy? Yes you receive those when you are 12 and 13 years old, not 18. No the consolation semi and championships did not have to be played on college fields but we did, we paid several hundreds of dollars more to do so and we will continue to spend the extra money in order to put as many games on college fields as we can. That's just the way we do it and that's why so many of the teams that come to our events each year come back! However, I truly do feel for you playing 3 or 4 of your games on a college (D1) field since 40 of the other teams played one at most and some got zero because there game was rained out.

Lastly....

quote:

Finally, we had a chance to discuss this at the field, and as you walked off. Either you are someone in your entourage did state that the justification was because of daylight and that I was just a sore loser. In hindsight, I don't believe you think that was a good comment.

Again, I was walking out of the complex with ONE of our other directors and NEITHER of us said a word about the game or to anyone of the parents that were barking profanities at us and following us to our cars. You may have heard this from one of the parents on another team that called us stating how "embarrassing it was to hear parents cuss at the directors in front of kids" after the game was over. You did NOT hear any comment of that nature come from anyone from Pastime as you heard this from someone else, not in our two man entourage, or you are simply making this up which I already touched base with you on so you know where that is going.

Pastime..numbers don't bring coaches or scouts, quality brings them!

On a side note, I was one barking at you as you walked away and I can assure you no one from our organization was barking profanities or cursing.
But I can understand why you were embarrassed.

You're a young kid who made a mistake...just learn from it.

Just_Learning ... NO, I assure you that there were profanities used. I was not embarrassed by anything that took place from my people, only when the profanities came out. Was it unfortunate, yes. You may be referring to another director as a young kid, as I am not.

Thank you for your comments. You are correct in quality bringing coaches ... we just have quality in quantities at most of our events. Again, I understand why you were frustrated but this doesn't seem to be an issue that anyone will "win". We did exactly what the teams agreed on and what our rules stated would happen. Will they change for 2010, probably so.

Again, thank you for your comments and good luck to your son next year. Thanks.

Tom,

If the rule needs changing, why wait? Change it now.

Also,

I find it very suspecting that your story/tone about the incident at the park has changed in the last couple of days. I promise you that I did not use any profanities or cuss and I did not hear anyone else use any profanities or cuss during the episode. In fact, your email to our coach the night of the incident did not mention this type of behavior. I was emotional and I did raise my voice, but absolutely no profanities or cussing was used that I know about. Additionally, if I were in your shoes and profanity and cussing was used, I would have immediately informed the team representative that they were no longer welcomed in any of my events. There seems to be some inconsistency in either your story or tolerance of such behavior.

If you would have stayed around, we had several very cordial conversations with the opposing team's parents, so I seriously doubt they found anything embarrassing about the incident. By the way over a dozen of them directly told me that they were absolutely shocked that the game was called because of time.

You had a decisions to make and you made. I didn't like the situation but that is tough. It is probably the only decision you had at the time. You just have a very bad policy and you did not handle the situation correctly.

You don't like Just Learning reference to you as a kid. Don't take it personal. You will always be a kid to our generation and a good porting of the world until your kids are old enough to play in these tournaments. I'm still a kid to my old coaches.

More years of experience will teach you to face these types of situations directly. They don't get better with time. Old school guys face controversy in the face and solve the issues immediately. Leadership is about telling people life isn't fair and then making sure they no you care. That is best done face to face.

Why would we punish your players for parental language? That is not what we are here to do. We put on tournaments for the players and the parents are here for the same thing. Just because there are unruly parents doesn't mean we should punish the players.

There was never a "decision" made other than following our rules. Why is it so hard for you to be fair to the teams that were playing at the other field. What do you find fair about allowing your game to go well over the time limit when the other field had no option?

The bottom line is your team and coach agreed to the rules of the tournament ... they played 7 innings or two hours ... they were permitted to use a DH and/or an EH ... there were no pitching restrictions ... etc, etc ... if I suddenly put a 3 inning pitching restriction or suddenly did not allow a DH or an EH it would have been the same as us changing the two hour time limit to 2 hours and 45 minutes to complete the game. You can't change the rule in the middle of a tournament or in the middle of a game.

AGAIN, we had rules in place that all teams were okay with when they registered and when they were given to them at the plate meeting, all tournament and all summer long. We couldn't change them to help a team or a program we respect. We couldn't change them to give a team the opportunity to hit again. We couldn't change them in the middle of a tournament, the middle of a game, because the moment we do there will be someone in the stands connected to another team that had to abide by the tournament rules and they will then ask us why we permitted one game to break the rules and not another. Regardless of what your thoughts are on the issue and whether or not in results in a change in our tournament rules, IT WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN FAIR TO THE OTHER TWO TEAMS COMPETING AT THE UNIVERSITY OF INDIANAPOLIS, PERIOD! They both played by the same rules, the same time restrictions and both teams made decisions based on those given rules in order to try and win the game. We aren't here to hurt a player, make parents unruly, have foul language thrown our way, or cheat anyone ... we are here to allow you and your athletes to play baseball, get recruited, and enjoy a tournament - within the rules set prior to taking the field.

There was no need to "handle the situation" because there was no situation that needed handled as unfortunate the circumstances were. The situation was handled prior to the game starting when the rules were laid out. If the umpire stated that no player was to be on deck in a certain area or you were not allowed to catch a ball in the area by the hitting facility, that is a rule that each and every team and player are subject to. Those rules can not be changed for one team during one instance either. AGAIN, will we change the rule for 2010 ... probably so ... will that help your team right now ... no ... is this something that that was unfortunate but within the rules both teams agreed on ... yes ... is there anything more to discuss ... probably not.

I have watched the HSBW for about 6 years and have stayed off for the sake of my kids. Now that they have both graduated and will be playing ball in 2010 here in the Midwest I am comfortable with jumping on board and providing my own insight.

However, this thread is driving me crazy. Both of my kids were on a team that played in this tournament and we had a great time. My boys and I, despite our team not having a chance to play on Saturday or Sunday, stuck around and watched several of the games that were played during the championship and consolation brackets. The game in question happened to be one we caught as we stayed at Butler University for nearly every pitch of the day. I must express my opinions on what took place as I believe there to be some information that has been left out!

To start, this was a well played but very slow paced game. If I recall correctly, this semi-final game started 10 or 15 minutes early because the first two games were done rather quickly. I saw the time limit coming in to play when the first 5 innings took just under two hours ... we too had a shortened game but those are the rules and we followed them.

quote:

The bottom line is your team and coach agreed to the rules of the tournament ... they played 7 innings or two hours ... they were permitted to use a DH and/or an EH ... there were no pitching restrictions ... etc, etc ... if I suddenly put a 3 inning pitching restriction or suddenly did not allow a DH or an EH it would have been the same as us changing the two hour time limit to 2 hours and 45 minutes to complete the game. You can't change the rule in the middle of a tournament or in the middle of a game.

You are absolutely correct in your statement as I would have personally expressed my dissatisfaction if the rules would have changed for this game! Our coach, players and parents were all aware of these rules when we registered. We have team meetings prior to every tournament we attend and everyone is made aware of these rules with a print out for every tournament. Perhaps better management on the teams side of this would have resulted in better informed parents.

Having said that, I was appalled by the actions and reactions of the parents with the Missouri team. First, you have the right to come on any site and express your opinions but the two that seem to be posting from the same team are likely the two that were so far out of line that I told my boys to go to the car. One guy was ranting and raving at the bottom of the steps to the press box while another kept shouting profanities. Yes, this team did in fat use profanity and very nearly in a harassing nature towards the young men in the press box and the officials leaving the field. Personally, I would have reacted quite differently had I been in the shoes of the directors. They left the press box with a mob of Missouri parents at the bottom of the steps yelling in there faces about a rule that was in place before the game started. Not a rule that anybody in any circumstance likes but a rule none the less and a tournament rule that we experienced in EVERY tournament we competed in since we were 12 years old.

The only reason why I have stepped on to this site is to hopefully provide some insight to parents and teams participating in travel baseball. Travel baseball has been the best experience of my life with my boys and something I will cherish forever. However, the tournament in question was extremely well ran, the fields were immaculate, even the JV fields and we saw more scouts attend this tournament than any other this summer with the exception of the tournament hosted by this group at Wright State University a couple of weeks ago. If my math is correct they lost almost 30 games to rain and still managed to get everyone a reasonable number of games during the tournament. Everyone on our team received a free ticket to an Indians game, I believe all teams got this. This is one of the very few hosts that actually provides baseballs at the tournament. The communication from the directors and staff were second to none as we were probably too informed of what was going on at the fields through out the weekend. The competition was extremely good, probably why we did not advance out of pool play. The organization is first class and clearly made every attempt to give as many of us an opportunity as they could to play games on the college fields and in front of college coaches. A comment was made about playing on college fields is the norm and should be expected, shame on you! Playing on college fields is an experience, a privilege and something our players and my boys relish!

In my opinion, the tournament was ran very well, the personnel were fantastic, and the only thing that left a bitter taste in my mouth were the actions of those trying to compromise the reputation of a quality tournament, which there are few of these days. If I had another son playing travel baseball I would happily attend these tournaments again in 2010 but I will be sitting on the sidelines of two small collegiate facilities every day my boys play instead. However, I do not agree with the opinions made by these two parents and find much of the information provided by them as exaggerated or false. I personally watched the entire event take place and I applaud the director for the way he handled it. These parents were completely out of line!

A passage on ParentDish that we should all read:

quote:

Why do parents go crazy over kids' sports?

by Jonathon Morgan May 14th 2007 2:05PM

Categories: Kids 5-7, Kids 8-11, Teens & tweens, Fun & activities
Email More

On every baseball, basketball, football and s****r team I played on as a kid, we always had that one parent who couldn't keep things in perspective. Sometimes it was the coach, who thought he was coaching a bunch of 11-year-olds in the World Cup, and sometimes it was some mom or dad who felt like the referee was unfairly trying to penalize his or her child more than anyone else.

While you might think this would be more prevalent as kids get older -- and the competition becomes more intense -- parents are apparently at their worst when their kid are just starting out. According to one sports columnist, the reason moms and dads are "unruly" when their kids are 7 or 8, is "because there's so much hope."

Essentially, the idea is that because kids have such varied skill levels at that age, parents of good players think their kid is on track to professional stardom, while those whose children don't play as well assume it's because politics, officiating, etc.

And if you're a parent who's never been successful in athletics, you're more likely to cause problems.

As someone who played sports throughout my childhood, I believe that there's a number of positive things about being on a team, trying your best for a common goal -- even winning and losing. This is all besides the fact that it's important for kids to be outside and exercising. However, when parents lose perspective, I think it teaches kids an equally unhealthy lesson about obsessive competition -- winning at all costs, demonizing your opponent, etc.

Because let's be honest, chances are extremely high that you're not raising the next Barry Bonds, or Michael Jordan, or Peyton Manning. So just let them have fun, and keep your ego out of it.

....exaggerated or false???

SRoach please define the word "Mob" or your line "yelling in there faces". Are you two related? No one followed anyone to there car.

Anyway, rules are rules and the games are over. Other than the way our game ended Tom, the tournament was enjoyable, even in the rain. And if this thread in any way does affect the rules next year then this thread should be considered a success.

Tom,

My use of the words "fair" is not related to our opportunity to win the game. For whatever reason I can't communicate my point effectively. "Fair" is my expectation of the opportunity to play a complete game on our field and the other field. I conceded that you didn't have a decision to make. If you want me to apologize for raising my voice to you when I said "TOM THAT is WRONG, ABSOLUTELY WRONG". I officially apologize for raising my voice. I wasn't embarrassed or unruly. If that is the smoke screen you want to coordinate then go ahead.

You probably don't remember the first time we talked back in 2006 at the university of Illinois. You told me that you had a plan to host quality tournaments for high school level players. I referenced a national company that hosted a national recognized tournament in East Cobb. If I remember right, your exact words were, "why would anyone want to play in that event because they have over 100 teams spread out at high schools all over Atlanta". I have never personally attended that event, but I have been to East Cobb and that facility is EXCELLENT. I can't speak for the high school fields in Atlanta.

But my question to you is what is the difference between that event and your tournament with 52 teams last week in Indianapolis?

What has changed?

Why does quantity add so much value now?

You are right, I missed calculated the total number of entry fees that you will have for 2009. But the number is well over 1,000. Furthermore, The majority of those entry fees come from only 25% of your events. You haven't yet grown the others Those events are advertised, marketed, and sometimes titled with the feature field usually a college field. However, there are many times less than 50% of the games at your tournaments are played on the featured field and this particular tournament only 20% of the scheduled games plus bracket play were scheduled to be played on the featured fields.

This is where our disagreement begins. If the high school fields were so nice, why didn't you include the pictures of the North Central JV field, including the 280 right field fence. The reason is the feature fields are scarce commodities and you are trying to stretch that commodity as far as the market will allow you too. The time limit is just a mechanism for you to make the process more efficient. That is what is not fair.

I don't disagree that you provide a lot of extra items to dress up the event. But I believe that is an attempt to make up for over committing and under delivering on the feature item (the fields). Why else to you focus your web site around the fields.

We have attended an event for the past 2 years that has 24 teams played on three fields. None of the games were played on college fields, but all of them were college dimensions and quality. With a ratio of 8 teams to one field none of the games including pool play had time limits.


The problem is that your business plan is to maximize the draw based on the opportunity to play on college fields. Each entry fee above 8 per tournament crosses the line of quality and transfers into profit. The add-ons are intended to help people except your product. Apparently it has worked with SRoach2424 and several other costumers. People don't know what they don't know. I even believe that people are willing to pay extra if the quality is actually delivered. What is a couple of hundred bucks per team that is already spending $10,000 for the week.

The big three had a monopoly on the American car industry until the Japanese showed us the potential of quality.

Sorry for stretching this thread out the last couple of days and being distracted with the confrontation that took place on Sunday. Again, I apologize for raising my voice. My expectations wasn't met. If you can sell ice cream to Eskimos more power to you.

Eventually someone focused on quality and not on stretching the margin per featured field will enter the market place and provide competition. That is what is great about this country and why I choose to serve and defend it.

Again, I have no dog in this hunt because my son will be moving on to big and better things. I'm just fighting for the players, coaches, and parents that are coming behind me. As Just Learning said if that happens, the events on Sunday and this thread were well worth it.

My sons' team has been to East Cobb, with the exception of the ECB complex you aren't missing much. You played on better fields here and your travel was far less. In looking at the schedule that was posted for your team compared to my sons' I would say that you were treated better than most. You started off on a D1 field, played on a JV field at a great complex (the JV field may not be as great but the complex itself is very nice), you then played on a very nice varsity field that has a fantastic playing surface, and then you played your last two games on a D1 field again.

I do not know Tom from Adam but it sounds as though you were pretty well taken care of. In reading your ranting and raving about your experience I believe you would better serve your son by worrying about your actions. I remember exactly who the guy was that said "Tom That is Wrong, Absolutely Wrong" and he was doing more than just yelling. You made a fool of yourself and you were hostile to say the least.

On a side note, one would think that this is truly your first rodeo on a tournament tour. Pasttime guaranteed every team a game on a college field, every player a ticket to the Indians game, 5 games of play if weather permitted them to do so, and held up there end of the bargain with quality fields, great competition, and scouts. Feature fields are a scarce commodity at every tournaments. That's why there is typically just one feature field. Yes, U of Indianapolis was probably the best field at this tournament but there were NO fields that were bad. You don't get, nor do anyone of us deserve, to play every game on a top collegiate field during a tournament. Get over your it's all about you mentality and come back to reality. Reality is, your son is a high school baseball player and until he is done with summer baseball and in his college uniform he will and should continue to play most games on high school fields. You are so oblivious to the cost of these collegiate fields, and Victory Field I assure you was not cheap as it is several thousands of dollars just to rent the patio for a corporate outing, that you forget these guys also pay for umpires, baseballs, and everything else going on during an event. You also did more than raise your voice and those of us reading your badgering need to know that you caused more problems than the rule!

If you have no dog in this fight then go about your way and enjoy your sons playing time. You are making silly comments about "over committing and under delivering." Surely I am not the only one bored with your intellect and pompous statements. You wouldn't have a word to say if you were on the other end of this game. You would have gladly trounced your way to Victory Field and had your team won you probably would have raised your medals and trophies in the air and yelled at someone else about how good you did. You are taking the moment away from these players and you are embarrassing the rest of us as parents. Since you have done so well in getting a parent or two from your organization to back you on the site I feel the same needs to be done on our end to help protect a great tournament host that did exactly what they should have done during this tournament. I applaud them for standing by the rules set forth prior to the start of the game. I applaud them for handling themselves appropriately when most would have crumbled or retaliated at your shoutings. Yelling you did, screaming you did, embarrassing yourself you did. You did nothing productive or proactive other than embarrass yourself, your team and the rest of us watching your actions.

I doubt you have gone protesting with your antics to other companies that, heaven forbid, make a dollar! I wish companies and organizations that do well, just like this one, the best of luck and I hope they prosper and continue to grow. You spent more money on gas, food and hotels than you did attending any tournament across the country this summer. Go speak your mind to Exxon, Chevron or Shell before picking on someone getting a fraction of your dollar. Had you an inkling of sense you would realize that the money you spent at an event results in time with the people you love, the people you protect and the friends that have come from these tournaments. Perhaps not being so self centered and all about you would help you get through this difficult time. This whole conversation comes down to this rule. It is what it is. Get over it and get on with baseball. Your $10,000 in Indianapolis would have been $20,000+ in most other states when attending a national event. I do enjoy you throwing this misconceiving numbers around as you have so enjoyed doing.

If Pasttime won't defend themselves the rest of us will. You are but a needle in the haystack. I hope Mr Tom chooses to remain silent as he did his part, Pasttime upheld there end and hosted an amazing event. Our kids had a fantastic time and enjoyed the experience. The big kicker in your opinion is the time limit being a "mechanish for you to make the process more efficient." What planet do you live on!? Everything is about efficiency and if there was no time limit there would be no set schedule and you would cry even more. Think about for a second -------------- times up, if there are NO time limits then what prevents a game from going 27 innings or 6 hours. The only thing non-timed games does is screw the rest of the day up for everyone! Are you so shallow that you can't see this. I am all for fighting for your kids and players but can you really be so selfish and uneducated to not figure this out with out some guidance. THIS IS TRAVEL BASEBALL I MIND YOU. You need time limits, you have to have time limits and the rest of the teams paying the same money as you want the time limits so we have the opportunity to compete in that consolation bracket, yes the one you threw to the way side and made fun of which probably cost Pasttime's another thousand dollars that they didn't have to spend but probably did so for the betterment of the players, that had games at the University of Indianapolis when the opportunity presented itself on Sunday. Thank you for being such a class act, caring more about others than your self and continuing to stretch your truths. I applaud you as well.

SRoach2424,

You seemed to be very informed about Pastimes operations and also my analysis has struck a serious nerve with you. It appears you have more than a distant relationship with your knowledge. If I have stated anything incorrectly, I think I have admitted my error and officially apologized for raising my voice.

You said I was doing more than yelling. Exactly what does that mean? What is hostile? Raising your voice and saying "That was wrong, absolutely wrong." You said in your first post that their was a guy yelling up at the press box and another guy followed the director to his car swearing. Now you say I was doing more than yelling at the press box. Please make up your mind.

My actions did not bother the numerous parents from the other team that continued to talk with me and my wife after the game.

I believe it is a smoke screen to try and avoid the discussion about the definition of a quality tournament and paint me as a sore loser. I enjoyed my son' s season and his career and look forward to his collegiate baseball.

Look the most important thing in life to me is that I have 2 healthy children. I hope your children are all healthy also. Other than that everything else is small potatoes. There are a lot of kids that would love to be playing baseball on any fields, with any equipment, and have a single parent care enough to take the time to watch them. I by no means feel cheated in life. I just believe their is a method to the madness and your right my expectation were not met at that moment. I am just taken time to reflect on why the rule was established. Once you start an audit, it usually expands into the entire operation. Is there something wrong with me expecting quality? We may not agree on the definition of quality or what we think is important for a summer baseball tournament. I respect your values, I just happen to disagree. That is the great thing about America.

I have also said that pastime did several things well. I agree with you that they made a decisive decision on the last day to cancel the pool games and begin bracket play. This decision was also very effectively communicated to the teams. See, I'm not a total grouch. But that also saved them the cost of 30 games due to rain. What is the value of 30 games? You said that the consolation bracket probably cost pastime $1,000 that they did not have to spend. You are right, but what did they save on the 30 games that were eliminated by the weather. If 8 games equal a thousand dollars, 30 games equal $3,750. I don't think they eliminated the 30 games to save money. My only point is that they replaced a $3,750 expense with a $1,000 expense. Not a bad deal for pastime. Did they have to do that no, but that doesn't make them a saint either. Our other team got the benefit of playing in the consolation bracket. I don't have a problem with that.

Why is it so wrong to expect the majority of the games should be played on a collegiate level fields. All Players that families finance this industry should have the opportunity to play on the age appropriate fields every game. Believe me, I don't think this is just a problem with pastime.
A lot of tournament businesses do this. But all don't. If you have been persuaded that this acceptable great.

Pastime's model of lining up a collegiate fields and then using the internet to attract large sums of teams, more than the feature field has the capacity to support is more aggressive at this practice than others. Just my opinion. I've been kinds of tournaments.

I also understand how professional baseball programs open up their facilities for organizations to play on their field. You have to purchase a minimum number of tickets. Here in St Louis, a major league team, that number is 1,000 at $10.00 a piece. That equates to $10,000. So lets say the Indians wanted $10,000 minimum ticket purchases to allow a game on their field. At $5 per ticket, Pastime had to purchase 2,000 tickets. By giving each team 20 tickets per team for coach and players That cost is approximately $5,000. Now if pastime can get every family to go to the game with their player or coach they can sell an average of 3 tickets per family and those tickets sells could generate approximately $15,000. The game was not a sell out, so who knows what the actual cost of the tickets for a mid week minor league game was. Additionally, the team makes money on selling the concessions so they may discount the tickets because they just care about attracting people to the park. See, my wife likes to enjoy herself at these events, so everyone makes out. That money can be used to off set the tickets provided to the players and raise enough ticket sells for the Indians to allow for the use of their field. I think it is a great concept. I give pastime credit for the ingenuity and taken the risk. I am not against a person or a business making a profit. To the contrary, everyone has a mortgage to pay and should be rewarded for their hard work and risk taken. My point is that pastime is not the one financing this dance. The money for this operation comes out the pockets of the parents that support the summer baseball industry. Is it wrong for me to expect quality? I promise you I would feel the same way if my son was holding the championship trophy in Victory stadium. I believe that I and all the other families that attended the tournament deserve quality. My definition of seems very different than yours. Again, you have your opinion and I have mine. That is what is great about America.

You said:


You spent more money on gas, food and hotels than you did attending any tournament across the country this summer.

See, pastime also probably gets a cut from the hotel cost that most teams incur at their tournaments. Why else would they have the host hotel info on their web site. If they don't then their business plan is not very good.

It appears that I am attacking Pastime for being a profitable business. I hope they are profitable. Because if they are not profitable then they will go out of business and their tournaments will no longer exist. To the contrary, I am just building a case to establish how this industry is financed (by the parents) and justify my expectation for quality. See if I, and the parents that come behind me don't have anything in the anti, we shouldn't have any exceptions. I just believe the anti is large enough to focus on the right features. If you are happy with the models that you are used to from your sons youth tournaments that you have experienced, then more power to you. You don't know what you don't know. You know.

I believe you continue to stretch the truth and are feeding your mind with what YOU want to see and what YOU want to be present with regards to Pasttime's.

quote:

Pastime's model of lining up a collegiate fields and then using the internet to attract large sums of teams, more than the feature field has the capacity to support is more aggressive at this practice than others.

The information and advertising piece on the website lists the following details (below). Further explain how this information lead you to believe that there were more college fields advertised than what were being used. You wanted to know why they didn't post pictures of every field and this is another location where you are just taking your "freedom of speech" option a bit too far and trying to be a pompous pain in the >>>. I am sold that this is your first rodeo with travel baseball as the ONLY thing that we as parents come to EXPECT at large tournaments is that we are going to play on high school fields. Some of us get to play on college fields. This site clearly states that the first however many teams registered get a guaranteed game at a feature field. Once again you believe you are entitled to all of your games on college fields and none of us though your team came pretty darn close to getting that. Everyone knows that if there are more than 10 or 12 teams you will likely be playing games on high school fields as well. It does not appear that anything was listed differently on this site, your expectations are out of control.

Tournament: 18U National Championships
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Dates: 07/22/2009 - 07/26/2009
Cost: $850
Age Group: 18U 17U
Guaranteed Games: 5
Gate Fees: $125
Status: This Tournament Is Closed
Other Details: The city of Indianapolis, Butler University and the University of Indianapolis will play host to Pastime Tournaments' 18U National Championships. This event will be open to regional and national programs with 60+ teams expected to attend. Indianapolis is home to the NCAA, Indy 500, the Indianapolis Indians and the 2012 Super Bowl. The championship game will be held at Victory Field, home to the Indianapolis Indians for this event. Champion and Runner up teams will receive team and individual trophies & tshirts!

In pulling out the team schedule that was provided to our families, along with tournament rules, this consolation game system was already in place before the rain hit on Saturday so it doesn't appear that this was something that was added. Having been to enough of these tournaments to realize what rain does I am sure that tournament directors would much rather have no rain and spend the extra money than lose a bunch of games to the rain. That leads to incompetent parents like you and I running our mouths all day and calling the director in the middle of the night wondering if our team is suppose to play. Our team has a rule that parents are not permitted to call the tournament director but needless to say we still want the information. You seem to have more of a bone to pick with this group than the time limit. The rules were laid out before we all came and if your team was not okay with them you should have shut up and stayed at home instead of spending a great weekend in great weather, for the most part, in Indianapolis.

One bit - you asked what else you were doing besides yelling. If you are the parent I am envisioning you went off on a temper tantrum behind the bleachers on a quick job to the press box and then paced around the bottom jabbing your finger up at the press box in your disgust. And yes there was a guy following closely behind the two young men when they went to the parking lot, clearly speaking there mind. Enough said, we are 5 days apart from this event but you are very entertaining in that you can't seem to let it go.

I am interested in knowing why there is so much talk about who is making or saving money at this tournament. It's a business and ulm you keep praising the USA and how that is great and then you formulate and argument that makes you look like you are against this group making money. If you are all about the "American Way" be quiet and play ball. The more I read your posts the more irritated I get by your contradicting words. Our program played your team at this event and the players and coach seemed very classy. You are making Cherokee Baseball look bad right now. Your head coach should be ashamed of your actions and statements if you ask me.

I agree that you seem to have little to no knowledge on tournament style baseball. We compete at smaller tournaments with games only on college fields and there are rarely any scouts present, those events are all eye candy and we paid more to attend those for 3-4 games than we did to attend this one with 5 games. Having run tournaments for 23 years myself, there is nothing cheap about running a tournament. We have been to tournaments in California, Florida, Georgia, New York and every state in the Midwest. They don't compare to the organization and quality as you saw this past weekend. Your vision is skewed.

All of this over a time limit, something we have all dealt with since tournaments began being organized. The time limit is not something installed to hurt a team on purpose! It's only mission is to keep continuity, fairness, and organization through out the day. What would your team have done if the game before yours, on championship day or otherwise, played for 7 hours and there was no daylight or lights with fields to complete your game? You would have been ****ed, just like the rest of us. Time limits and other rules prevent this from happening. I get it, you are a trophy chaser and that's your prerogative and that is fine. The rest of us are here to get our kids seen by college coaches and advance them to the next chapter in life. I think the only thing that would have made you happy was to play at the minor league stadium every game. You are living in a dream world right now and I hope you come down from cloud 52 some time soon as you will be wasting your time writing on a thread instead of living your life.

Until you run these events yourself and have a better understanding of why these rules are in place just stick to watching the games. You don't know what you are talking about as you seem to be under informed on how these things work and that is probably why sroach believes this is your "first rodeo" with regards to tournaments. I haven't an inkling of a complaint on this tournament, far better and more organized than any other, other than reading your posts. I hope this group continues to host tournaments and the best tournaments, the ones that are the most fun for the boys, are the events that have 50+ teams. That's what we all look forward to. You wanted a National event and then you complain about this group getting a bunch of teams to attend. What National event do you want to attend with 10 or 15 teams. Get a grip.

We have also played the Cherokees Baseball teams over the past couple of years , and found them to be a class act! Players, Coaches and Parents were always well-behaved and fun to be around!

ULMDAD-You are totally off-base in your method of criticism of the Past Time group! Handle it man-to-man! As someone who proudly served our country in the military and was a former Air Force Academy football player, I would think that you would have a better sense of decorum? This "He-said,He-said" approach is ridiculous!

BTW, your Son is a good ball-player! I wish him the best up in Springfield!

PASTTIME TOURNAMENTS- Tom, you guys have done a nice job for the past few years. As a business owner myself, I certainly understand that you can't please all of the people all of the time!
However, I think your initial reply to Ulmdad was overly defensive and a bit cynical! A better approach, I feel, would have been to post that you would gladly entertain a conversation with Ulmdad to discuss the situation, and then hopefully add a post later that declared that the issue was resolved and that you will continue to address suggestions for improvement.

gitnby - agreed.

Based on several comments/replies I think I am extremely misunderstood. That is probably my fault. I should have taken more time to develop an overall thesis to my position before rushing to identifying specific points. It also didn't help my position that I started the discussion off after an emotional event. THE EMOTION WAS NOT OVER WINNING OR LOSING. IT WAS ABOUT THE END OF AN ERA, abruptly coming to a close. Not just a game, tournament, or a season, but a 10 year journey. Ten years of investment in both time and money that our family has made to the system called summer baseball. Not just with pastime, but the entire system. There have been a lot of great people along the way and some not so great. There is an ongoing battle between high school and summer baseball and they both have their points. For me personally, I have come down on the side of summer baseball, not because of the competition, fields, scouting, or nights at a AAA ballgame. Overwhelming, it has been because of the development. But that is our personal situation. I'm sure everyone will have their own opinion on that subject as well. The four hour car ride home started with a reflection of this journey, but continually returned to the episode earlier in the day and my association of that event to the commercialization of this industry. Others may not share that view, but it is mine.
I've apologize for raising my voice, adamantly denied any use of profanity or intimidation as stated in several inconsistent stories. I, agreed that Pastime performed extremely well with a lot of the things they do including making decisions and communicating them to the teams and utilizing creative ingenuity to coordinate a night at a AAA game for the use of an excellent field for a championship game. I even, admitted to misestimating Pastime’s quantity of entry fees for 2009, but stood behind my assertion of their quantity of large events. I have consistently defended statements against being a sore loser, trophy chaser, rookie cowboy a attempting my first rodeo. In fact I have taken my son to tournaments in Missouri, Illinois, Indiana, Tennessee, Alabama, Mississippi, Arkansas, Louisiana, Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, and Arizona. Five of those states included pastime events. I can throw states around too. I specifically said on numerous occasions that we had our chance to win and didn't. I would take our situation in the top of the 6th against anyone, unfortunately we failed to execute day. That is no ones fault just baseball and sports in general. The overwhelming majority of athletes don’t win their last game.
I’ve said that I didn’t think we would have won if the game was played to full regulation. After additionally thoughts I might back off that statement slightly. The bulls gave up a lot of runs in the championship game. So who knows what might have happened. Baseball is about pitching for those of you who that haven't been around the rodeo. That is why it is played by innings NOT TIME, especially in a self promoted national championship semi finals. I think Tom has stated that he will review that policy. I consider that a success for the teams that follow. I will get no personal benefit out of that accomplishment, but the knowledge I made a difference.
I understand that there is a trade off between quantity and quality. The internet has allowed communication to explode exponentially. Several of the post are right, the rules are published and everyone has the opportunity to be fully aware them before attending. That makes them available, but not right. Attending the tournament was our choice, my wife reminded me of that when we got home. She and others on this site are right, I should have known what to expect. There are all different types of summer events and these events are what they are. Also, everyone knew that only one game would be guaranteed on a featured field. I understand in large tournaments fields are a scarce commodity.
Indianapolis is a very nice city. I have only been there a few times. Several of you have stated that the main goal should be to have the players scouted by college coaches. I think the main goal is player development, but recognize the value of the scouting, especially for 17U players. I know there were several 17U teams/players in this event, but it was listed as an 18U event. At this point, there are not many 18 U players that are going to get picked up by a college for this year. With that said, we did have a player that is headed to a JUCO get some interest from a D1 School. He decided he wasn’t interested, I don't think very many kids would change their plans at this point (3 weeks before they are to report to school). But who knows? It was an honor for the kid to get the recognition that he deserves. For that situation, pastime deserves some credit.
If scouting and college exposure is a substantial goal (which I do believe it is very important). Why didn't Pastime maximize the use of all the college fields in the Indianapolis area? I have conceded the high school fields were nice, some newer and better maintained than the college ones, But not the JV fields for a tournament of this magnitude.
I am not familiar with the city, but I do know off the top of my head that there is at least one other D1 school that has a baseball facility in town (Valpo) and through very quickly checking, I found at least one other NAIA school (Marian) in the area. I would think that these schools would want to show off their campus/fields to 52 teams from across the nation (well at least the Midwest). That is the premise of the plan, right? This is pastimes home town and you would think they would be able to pull that off in their on backyard. They are capable of running tournaments from North Carolina to Arizona. I know there are several colleges of all size in St Louis that have baseball facilities. I would think a great city like Indianapolis would have similar numbers. From experience, the pastime tournament here in St Louis passed up at least six small colleges or JUCO fields to hold their overflow on a high school field. I concede at Arkansas State and some of the other small one college towns that there may be no other choice. It is my opinion, that the high school alternative has become the option of choice and I argue effectively that it is primarily a financial decision. I make that judgment by analyzing the patterns. The cost is probably greater in the north and upper Midwest due to established union contracts. Tom, I think that is what you pointed out a couple of years ago when the university of Illinois field was limited to one day
What that moment on Sunday night represented to me was the dilution of the sport as a result of the commercialization of the internet tournament process. Again, not exclusive to pastime. A lot of you have been trained by this phenomenon because it is readily available with little work on your part. This is very similar to how major retail, most notably Wal-Mart has trained the public to accept reductions in quality, local values, and relationships in the name of low prices. They have made a tremendous business and bring value to a lot of areas. But there are some towns that refuse to let them in their communities. How many of you have bought your kids $200 glove or the $400 bat at Wal-Mart. I would offer a wager, very few. Because that equipment is very important to you and you value the quality more than the convenience or low prices.
I happen to value the last 8 years of summer baseball more than you can ever imagine. Our family has skipped vacations and large family reunions for years to support our son and his quest to play college ball and used that time for development during the summer baseball season. I care about it not being watered down by the push for volume and efficiencies that are associated with its commercialization. The internet is a powerful tool. The technology allows for expansion of communication at an uncontrollable pace. At a time when several older forms of summer baseball are going away and a boom of start up teams with parents or young kids coaching that don't know what they don't know. This is a dangerous mixture. I don't want the Wal-Mart version of summer baseball to be the model for the future.
I think Pastime and other companies had a great idea, when they started. I think these companies do an excellent job in a lot of areas. They make it convenient, by coordinating fields & umpires, facilitating scouting services, and adding on some amenities. I think they should be compensated for their ingenuity, risk taking and most of all service (Something that I think is quickly evaporating in our technological society). I just see their attraction to growth and efficiencies as the wrong direction for the summer baseball system. This is not a unique complaint about pastime, but an observation of the industry as a whole. However, I believe pastime is one of the leading companies in this area pursuing this direction. When are enough entry fees enough? How many teams to you accept in a tournament? How do you minimize the process? I think, but am not for sure, there were teams being added to this tournament the last 48 hours. The schedule was changing I know. Our teams designation was changed at least once. Generally, that makes it chaotic and difficult to maximize quality. However, I would give Pastime an above average grade for organizing the chaos in this tournament that they migrate to in the chase for volume.
The incident on Sunday just push my button. The facts are the facts. Look at the archives on their web site. My request is to slow down and do it right. Everyone has a choice in this great nation.
Tom if you were there on Sunday morning at the first game, before I was out of bed (I think you said sniffing my coffee), then I assume you have already discussed with the host officials about the individual that dressed down the young pitcher from the opposing team that was throwing off the field mound before the game. See he raised his voice because the protocols of the game (his expectations were not met). Similar action has been defined on this thread as embarrassing and intimating. I bring this up not to tell on the individual in question, but to raise issue with some of the consistency or values of previous statements.
Gitney, I am not who you think I am. My son is not heading to college in Springfield. But that kid is a good player, an amazing young man and a great family.
Finally, the thing I regret the most about any of this issue, is in anyway tarnishing the reputation of the Cherokee baseball program. Like I said before, the players, coaches, and parents of that organization are of the highest of class and should be praised for the great accomplishments they have made in developing the young men in their program. I am an extremely passionate person and lay things on the line when I believe in them. Otherwise, I wouldn't waste my time on this thread. You can question my motives, judge my words and emotion, disagree with my opinion, correct my statements (I have conceded some points where appropriate), but my intent with of these comments the past few days is not intended to draw attention to myself or my selfish concerns, but to move the ball in the right direction for the future of summer baseball. For those of you that have taken it as a personal attack that shows my failure in communication and your ability to open your mind. Best of luck to everyone with your future endeavors.

Surely if you have been to so many of these events across the country you would understand that 99% of them of time limits. Yes, the game in its origination is designed to be played by innings but this is summer travel baseball. This is not major league baseball, this is not high school baseball, this is travel ball and we all know what to expect (or we/you should). It is not just for baseball, all tournaments have time limits, game limits, and many with other limitations on pitching, hitting, etc. If you were truly participating in these events with common sense you would know this stuff like the rest of us do.

I agree that this still, somehow - someway, your first rodeo. We all also know that 18U is an age limit, not the only age permitted to attend. 99% of 18U events have 17 and most have even 16 year old players attending. That is the great thing about "U", it means everyone can participate within reason.

I think you are misunderstanding what the "feature fields" are at these tournaments as well. The feature fields, as it appears, would be those listed (Butler University and University of Indianapolis) NOT Victory Field. I am shocked they played as many games on those college fields as they did, most schools would not permit that many games. What other college fields did you want?

Bottom line is you sound delusional and out of context. Your vision on this commercialization of tournaments is a riot. There are far bigger fish to fry if you want to delve in to that reality. Travel baseball is not one of them. WOW.

Does anyone have the webb site for Cherokee baseball program.
Thanks

Regretfully I have to chime in.

-Valpo is 2.5 hours away from Indianapolis!
-Marion was a dump a few years ago and understand it is about the same now and why the field isn't being used.
-You are living in a dream world if you think you have earned the right or can even believe that travel ball tournaments need to host all games on college facilities. If you think you have earned this or that it should be expected, go see a doctor!
-Your Wal-Mart comparison, are you serious?
-You keep saying how getting high school fields is something of efficiency as opposed to reality or a necessity. If I want to attend a National event I fully expect there to be some sort of park facility, high school fields, and hopefully a collegiate field or two being used. I don't see this as convenience or efficiency. This is common sense and required to put on large events. Show me city or a location with 12 quality college fields within 30 minutes of each other and you will have your point but until then you are speaking to the birds.
-You keep suggesting you want a national event but it sounds as though you don't want many teams to attend. Does this make much sense to anyone else. If I want a National event I want as many teams as the host can get. 50, 75, 150, 300, the more the better! That's what it is all about.
-Had you been around the block or in a rodeo like this before you, too, would know that teams drop out and withdraw from events like this on a daily basis now. Your schedule changing is the ordinary, not the exception. Same thing happens at Wal-Mart when the truck with Kraft Mac-n-Cheese doesn't arrive. The shelves get stacked differently and things change. Chaos, I don't it. You even stated the communication went well didn't you.

Basically what you are saying is you understand that travel baseball and tournament hosting has become a business but you want to be the government and control the process and limit how it is ran. You don't want there to be too many teams. You don't want there to be high school fields use. And you believe Wal-Mart shouldn't have their name on it. Basically you are an army guy that wants Communism in the USA! Hoooooraaaaaa!

Cherokee Baseball
http://www.hometeamsonline.com...UNCAN&s=baseball&t=c

The coach of the program is amazing and a great guy! He is a one of kind coach who is in it for the right reasons for sure. Very good program he is building with Cherokee Baseball


ulmdad - yes I saw the young pitcher Sunday morning before teams arrived go to the mound at Butler and take his foot and dig a hole on the mound for his planter foot, the size of a canal. A hazard was created on the mound and yes a Butler representative was at odds with himself on the reason behind it since he just took a 1/2 bag of clay the day before, and quite a bit of time, to rebuild the shelf on the mind in order to have it ready and perfect for Sunday's games. His work was destroyed before the first game and he clearly wasn't happy, nor was the rest of the people and I believe Coach Duncan was the first to point it out. The game was still over an hour away from starting so he had time to redo the work he did from the day before but one can only assume the frustration.

Just as my final three cents of peace on this issue: I think we can all agree to disagree on some of the statements above. I believe the commercialization comments and comparisons to stores to be rather fruitless and kind of weird to be honest. Yes, this is America so why the need to limit numbers and quality teams from entering an event that is suppose to have teams from across the region/country in attendance, that would defeat the purpose of the tournament. If teams wanted a 12 teams tournament they wouldn't have attended this event. I like to think we do everything efficient but being efficient in the manner in which you are accusing (being cheap) is not one that we are familiar with, fortunately. You may be shocked if you took the time to organize an event like this once you see the bottom line and the costs associated with fields, umpires, assigning umpires, baseballs, insurance, the website, website maintenance, the phone system used to keep all teams informed of changes, awards, workers, and the list goes on and on. I understand this means nothing though.

Believe me, you played on the best fields available. Victory was not the feature field, U of Indy and Butler were. However, I wish your son luck in 2010! Thanks and good night.

Lindenwood University NAIA
Maryville University D2
University of Missouri St Louis D2
Webster Univ GSC Park D3 & Independent league
St Louis University D1
Mosouri Babtist NAIA
St Charles Community College JUCO
Jeffersons Community College JUCO
Washingon University D3
Mermac Community College D3
Florence Valley Community College JUCO
McKendre University NAIA
Southwest Illinois Community College JUCO
Forest Park Community College JUCO
Harris Stowe University NAIA

Pick any 12, Like I said before. They are not all impressive, but definitely head and shoulders above the 3 high school JV fields last week.

I was wrong about VALPO, See I can admit when I make a mistake. That is a sign of maturity.

SROACH2424,

I am far from a communist. I am part owner and venture capitalist in several business ventures. Made some money and lost some money. That is capitalism. My Wal-Mart analysis was just stating that you lose some qualities with volume. It is apparent that is what you and Pastime are about. Peddle to the meddle.

Those ground pounders in the army that you make fun of are the real heroes of our nation. I don't claim to take credit for the things they do protect you. You should be more respectful.

Just wanted to correct my spelling, that is actually Peddle to the metal.

Also, Was the Marian staff one of those 50 coaches/scouts in attendance. Don't know why you would want to facilitate a player going to a school where he would have to play on a "dump" your words not mine. College is college.

Finally, for anyone that is interested. There are several tournaments around the nation that are controlled entry with limited number of teams. Most are in the South where the fields and level of baseball is much greater. When was the last time a northern tier team won the CWS in either D1 or D2. Not to say that there is not talent in the north. Just not collectively the same as in the South and West. Longer season to play. The quality of the teams, facilities, and sometimes quantity and level of coaches/scouts is much greater than at these open internet events. Often in the fall, the colleges themselves organize the events or they have a local individual not directly associated with the school put it on so that they do not violate any NCAA rules. It keeps the coaches from traveling. You are usually not shuffled off to a high school varsity or JV field. The problem is that it takes a long time to build the relationships to get an invitation. They are usually mostly 17U teams because players on 18U teams already have their college picked out and they don't want to travel and spent the money. The coaches are looking for next year's recruiting class. This year seems to be a exception to the past, maybe because of the 35 man limit at DI and the new transfer rule. Maybe the APR? It is not convenient for the dad that throws together a team during his son's high school years. SRoach2424, different rodeo circuit. A lot of the teams that play in these events also play in the open format internet tournaments but just as a filler or maybe as a final farewell to try and win a notional national tournament. Just Learning was right. Quality attracts coaches not quantity.

Pastime did figure out the college field connection. Keeps the coaches from traveling and markets very well on the internet. I think they even get some of their college fields free of charge. Probably the ones in the South. But they have the same entry fee for those as their others.


I've actually taken a lot of time to investigate this whole process. I have asked a lot of questions during my rodeo circuit the past few years. People usually want to tell you want they know. You know.

Lets see where were we...oh, right....


Just get rid of the time limits in the semis and finals (for bracket play if possible) for "National" events. It's suppoese to be a big deal, make it one.

Problem solved.

Roach - chill, your comments make it to obvious who you are working for.


Tom - you seem like a go getter, just keep striving to improve your events.

Tom,

I agree with balljustice. You are a go getter. It is very impressive what you have accomplished the last 3 years. My post were not meant to take that away from you.

I'm also just asking for improvement. I don't think it is just eliminating the time limit in the semi and finals of a national championship tournament but that is a good start.

What is the difference between a 52 team national championship tournament and a 40+ team tournament somewhere else in the schedule? Title? A night at the Indians game at Victory. Very impressive stadium and my family did enjoy it a lot.

There is no perfect tournament. Just trying to help you improve your business. You may want to go another way. That is your choice.