PG, you beat me to it. I read that phrase and thought it sounded like it was your company. Better check it out. I am not a lawyer, but that phrase rang all kinds of bells and whistles to me. If I hadn't read your posts about your affiliation with the company, I would assume you guys were the ones running it. Better protect yourself.
Although I respect and appreciate PG and especially PGStaff, after reading all of these posts I still don't see a good reason to rate and identify players as young as 11 yo. For every Bryce Harper and BJ Upton who is discovered at 11-12 and remains at the top thru puberty there will be 10K kids who are IDed early and fizzle. For whatever reason. What kid wants to br tagged as the best BB player in the country at 11 who never played in HS.
I think that rating kids this young plays to the egos of parents and that is where it can do the most harm. If daddy has "proof" that Johnny is in the top 50 11 yos in the country how do you think he will react if/when the kid doesn't maintain that lofty status. Would you want to be the HS coach who sits him on the bench or cuts him, and then have take his calls and shoving his 3 year old rating sheet in your face.
And playing on people's egos is the easiest way to their wallets.
I am not judging the organization or the people I am just adding my 2 cents.
I think that rating kids this young plays to the egos of parents and that is where it can do the most harm. If daddy has "proof" that Johnny is in the top 50 11 yos in the country how do you think he will react if/when the kid doesn't maintain that lofty status. Would you want to be the HS coach who sits him on the bench or cuts him, and then have take his calls and shoving his 3 year old rating sheet in your face.
And playing on people's egos is the easiest way to their wallets.
I am not judging the organization or the people I am just adding my 2 cents.
PG - I doubt you'll be surprised to learn that I don't like this idea. Yes, I respect PG (regular) tremendously and you in particular. But I don't like this concept.
If the major purpose is to develop young players, how is this any better than the local college camps? Or the local academy camps? Or the local HS camps? In those cases I can pick and choose from the ones I believe are best staffed.
If the major purpose is to collect data/information, why do parents/players have to pay to provide the data/information? Shouldn't it be free if my child is donating his data to this organization? Maybe he should get a free hot dog and soda too?
I'm not being sarcastic, I just don't get the need for this at all.
Respectfully,
justbaseball
If the major purpose is to develop young players, how is this any better than the local college camps? Or the local academy camps? Or the local HS camps? In those cases I can pick and choose from the ones I believe are best staffed.
If the major purpose is to collect data/information, why do parents/players have to pay to provide the data/information? Shouldn't it be free if my child is donating his data to this organization? Maybe he should get a free hot dog and soda too?
I'm not being sarcastic, I just don't get the need for this at all.
Respectfully,
justbaseball
quote:If the major purpose is to develop young players, how is this any better than the local college camps? Or the local academy camps? Or the local HS camps? In those cases I can pick and choose from the ones I believe are best staffed.
justbaseball,
Of course, I'm not surprised. In fact, when we lent our name to this project I knew there would be people who would not be in favor. I knew you would be one based on past discussions.
I'm not sure that this is a lot different than attending the college camp of your choice. Are they free these days?
A large component of this will involve instruction and education. Anyone can see who the people are that are involved and decide if they are qualified to instruct and educate young players. If people feel the college camp is a better route, then so be it. But these are people with a great amount of experience. Take Garth Iorg for example. He played, coached, instructed at the Major League Level. In fact, he was the 3B coach for the Brewers in the playoffs last month. He had his own travel ball organization and instructional business (Knoxville Yard). He has had two sons sign professional contracts and one son was a first round pick. Both his sons played in college at SEC schools (Tennessee and Alabama) He grew up in a baseball family and had a brother who also played in the Major Leagues. IMO not a bad guy to be working with young baseball players.
Guess I look at identifying players and gathering information differently than others might. However, we all know there are many people out there coaching young kids and the major interest is winning the next game or tournament. Heck, we even see it on national television at the Little League World Series sometimes. Whether it happens at a college camp, a local instructor, a PG youth event, or elsewhere. There is a gigantic need for kids and parents to gain good information.
One last thing... I've mentioned several times and everyone here has added... There are lots of kids who are among the best at 12 and not anywhere near the best at 18, even no longer playing baseball.
While that is true, I'm willing to bet, that percentages would show that if you came up with a list of the best 12 year olds you know of... A higher percentage of those would be top players at 18 than the percentage involving all the other millions of 12 year olds.
I must admit, I would like to know who those top kids are. Maybe a lot like a 12 year old travel team that is trying to compete at a very high level. Or even a youth National team. Except my reasons for knowing would be different.
Anyway, I actually do see a need for all this. I'll admit that I could be all wet. I just want to find out. Rather than seeing no need for this, why not see if there is any harm in this. The supposed best experts in the world make mistakes every year in the draft. Why... because it's hard to tell for sure how good a 17-18 year old will be when he is 23-24 years old. There are many who don't maintain that "lofty" status. Has anyone ever been hurt on account of that?
Anyway, I think I'm done with this subject for awhile. I've got many other things to worry about. Everyone is entirely welcome to their own opinion.
Thanks for your response PG. Trust me when I say that I think very hard about anything you write on here.
I am reluctant to respond further since you say you're finished with this topic for a while. But I'll touch on a couple of points.
* Of course we all pay for college/HS/academy camps when our kids attend. My point was, how is this project enhancing the experience from the kids' point of view? Why entice kids to travel for hours by plane, train or automobile to this? I'm sure this group will hire reputable instructors with lots of experience. But I can get the same 15 minutes away at Stanford, Santa Clara U. or a number of HS's in my area. One of the very best (maybe best?) instructors I've ever seen is a guy who never played beyond college and he is only 10 minutes away.
* I don't claim that this will hurt any kids other than turning up the dial (as you know their parents will) at still a younger age. Where does it stop? Two years ago we discussed this same topic for 13-year olds. Now its 11's. Will it be 9's in two more years? What is the point? To gather data? Who needs the data? Why don't they pay for it? Do we want to become like the Chinese Gymnastics Federation? (Maybe we do? I know some parents would).
I certainly know that as a parent, I have every right to spend my money as I please. So I am not trying to judge anyone. I just question the need for this and to be totally frank, I question some of the language in the invitation (for 11/12-year olds) invoking signings in the SEC/Pac-10/etc... Seems to me to be playing on a parent's emotions to not miss the train before it heads down the track.
I recognize more and more that I may be some sort of a dinosaur on things such as this. I watched my daughter get dragged further and further into the gymnastics world...training 2, then 3, then 4, then more days a week at age 8/9/10. Then the stress over the next meet began. And she was completely missing out on other sports although she was probably the most well-rounded and athletic of our children. We, as parents were getting sucked further and further in too. More money, more travel, more commitment. We finally pulled her out at age 11...too much stress, too much specialization and too much commitment for a child that age. I made the mistake (by my judgement) as a parent to let it go as far as it did. I wouldn't make it again.
Thankfully today, she is a very good and athletic volleyball, softball and s-o-c-c-e-r player who is still catching up on the detailed skills in those sports.
These are just thoughts based on experience with six kids and how I feel looking back, nothing more. I'm not on a mission, just offering an opinion. Thanks for the dialogue.
I am reluctant to respond further since you say you're finished with this topic for a while. But I'll touch on a couple of points.
* Of course we all pay for college/HS/academy camps when our kids attend. My point was, how is this project enhancing the experience from the kids' point of view? Why entice kids to travel for hours by plane, train or automobile to this? I'm sure this group will hire reputable instructors with lots of experience. But I can get the same 15 minutes away at Stanford, Santa Clara U. or a number of HS's in my area. One of the very best (maybe best?) instructors I've ever seen is a guy who never played beyond college and he is only 10 minutes away.
* I don't claim that this will hurt any kids other than turning up the dial (as you know their parents will) at still a younger age. Where does it stop? Two years ago we discussed this same topic for 13-year olds. Now its 11's. Will it be 9's in two more years? What is the point? To gather data? Who needs the data? Why don't they pay for it? Do we want to become like the Chinese Gymnastics Federation? (Maybe we do? I know some parents would).
I certainly know that as a parent, I have every right to spend my money as I please. So I am not trying to judge anyone. I just question the need for this and to be totally frank, I question some of the language in the invitation (for 11/12-year olds) invoking signings in the SEC/Pac-10/etc... Seems to me to be playing on a parent's emotions to not miss the train before it heads down the track.
I recognize more and more that I may be some sort of a dinosaur on things such as this. I watched my daughter get dragged further and further into the gymnastics world...training 2, then 3, then 4, then more days a week at age 8/9/10. Then the stress over the next meet began. And she was completely missing out on other sports although she was probably the most well-rounded and athletic of our children. We, as parents were getting sucked further and further in too. More money, more travel, more commitment. We finally pulled her out at age 11...too much stress, too much specialization and too much commitment for a child that age. I made the mistake (by my judgement) as a parent to let it go as far as it did. I wouldn't make it again.
Thankfully today, she is a very good and athletic volleyball, softball and s-o-c-c-e-r player who is still catching up on the detailed skills in those sports.
These are just thoughts based on experience with six kids and how I feel looking back, nothing more. I'm not on a mission, just offering an opinion. Thanks for the dialogue.
justbaseball,
I think I'm done with this subject, but you bring up some very good points.
Truthfully, I would probably go that 10 minutes down the road, too.
You must admit though... not that I'm going to do it, but educating a few parents could be a good thing.
Don't know much about the Chinese Gymnastic Federation. I do know the girl from Iowa that won an Olympic Gold Medal in the balance beam.
I think I'm done with this subject, but you bring up some very good points.
Truthfully, I would probably go that 10 minutes down the road, too.
You must admit though... not that I'm going to do it, but educating a few parents could be a good thing.
Don't know much about the Chinese Gymnastic Federation. I do know the girl from Iowa that won an Olympic Gold Medal in the balance beam.
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
You must admit though... not that I'm going to do it, but educating a few parents could be a good thing.
Absolutely!
quote:Don't know much about the Chinese Gymnastic Federation. I do know the girl from Iowa that won an Olympic Gold Medal in the balance beam.
And she was/is absolutely terrific!
But does it make it right? My son was regionally ranked by a basketball magazine as a ten year old. I was amused. I reminded my son he was likely to grow up to be a 6'1", 6'2" white kid (PC'ers give it a rest). An NBA scout/friend is appalled kids are ranked this young. My son fell out of the rankings two years later when he chose not to join the summer AAU circuit due to USSSA baseball. He emotionally recovered.quote:Originally posted by CaBB:
Agree or disagree with this trend I think it is following the example set by basketball. It seems to me I've read about 6-8th grade basketball players being tracked at this young age also.
I have been following this thread and just have a few thoughts.
First, I am not all that sure about the importance of identyfying young talent at 11-14. What will be happening is identyfying those that can afford to be identified. The same players that can afford to go to Standford camps, cooperstown, steamboat springs, play expensive travel ball, USA youth tournies, expensive lessons,etc. will attend, the same players that will be attending PG showcases, tournies as they enter HS.
I am not sure where the data comes in either, other than to provide a larger data base as the players enter HS for the one allowing the use of their business name. But that is ok, because that is smart business, IMO. I really think that most of us are pretty smart and realize a purpose of this is also to make money, not for PG but for others. I am ok with that too, as long as parents who can't afford it don't eat their hearts out because they now think that their son needs to be identified early at 11 or 12.
I might be a dinosaur too about these things. My heart goes out to those who are experiencing really hard times and unable to do all they want for their kids. I just want parents to understand that this is NOT something their 11-14 year olds need to do to find their way onto a college field. In HS perhaps, not at that age. Yes, it's done in other sports, but that doesn't get you a college scholarship.
I have one concern, I can just see parents preparing their young players when they should be shutting down this time of year. More baseball. I have a friend of a very talented player who told me in december they took their player to every camp they could afford (alot) and by HS their son's arm and body was toast. His performance in college has been not too spectacular. Please make sure that this is an issue presented to those parents of players you identify early....take it slow.
What I find interesting is that each year, PG finds a HS player or two in Jupiter or in Atlanta tournies that is relatively unknown and becomes an instant sensation at 17. Now that's way awesome. Most likely those players were just having a bit of fun at 11-14 and NOT thinking about their future in baseball as yet. Now that is, to many of us, what 11-14 year old baseball should be about.
JMO.
Wouldn't we be best to serve our youth for trying to identify those that truely do have it but not as fortunate to pursue it? I thought about that when I saw the cost.
First, I am not all that sure about the importance of identyfying young talent at 11-14. What will be happening is identyfying those that can afford to be identified. The same players that can afford to go to Standford camps, cooperstown, steamboat springs, play expensive travel ball, USA youth tournies, expensive lessons,etc. will attend, the same players that will be attending PG showcases, tournies as they enter HS.
I am not sure where the data comes in either, other than to provide a larger data base as the players enter HS for the one allowing the use of their business name. But that is ok, because that is smart business, IMO. I really think that most of us are pretty smart and realize a purpose of this is also to make money, not for PG but for others. I am ok with that too, as long as parents who can't afford it don't eat their hearts out because they now think that their son needs to be identified early at 11 or 12.
I might be a dinosaur too about these things. My heart goes out to those who are experiencing really hard times and unable to do all they want for their kids. I just want parents to understand that this is NOT something their 11-14 year olds need to do to find their way onto a college field. In HS perhaps, not at that age. Yes, it's done in other sports, but that doesn't get you a college scholarship.
I have one concern, I can just see parents preparing their young players when they should be shutting down this time of year. More baseball. I have a friend of a very talented player who told me in december they took their player to every camp they could afford (alot) and by HS their son's arm and body was toast. His performance in college has been not too spectacular. Please make sure that this is an issue presented to those parents of players you identify early....take it slow.
What I find interesting is that each year, PG finds a HS player or two in Jupiter or in Atlanta tournies that is relatively unknown and becomes an instant sensation at 17. Now that's way awesome. Most likely those players were just having a bit of fun at 11-14 and NOT thinking about their future in baseball as yet. Now that is, to many of us, what 11-14 year old baseball should be about.
JMO.
Wouldn't we be best to serve our youth for trying to identify those that truely do have it but not as fortunate to pursue it? I thought about that when I saw the cost.
Isn't this another version of "Dream Insurance"?
Fungo's quote regarding recruiting services:
"Parents are so emotionally involved and afraid that their son isn't going to have an opportunity to achieve his goal that they are going to spend whatever they can to ensure he has that opportunity. Parents want to buy "Dream Insurance". Seizing the moment the astute businessman (or businesswoman) realizes the parents frame of mind and begins selling their promises of a "college scholarship".
...Or,in this case, "Professional instruction..., for all the right reasons"...
Harsh reality, baseball is big business.
I am really reluctant to post, but am just flabbergasted that baseball may be headed in this direction. I think kids under HS should be having fun! I think parents need to let kids have fun!
I agree with justbaseball & others who see NO need for this.
Marketing= Creating the illusion of consumer need, benefit.
Fungo's quote regarding recruiting services:
"Parents are so emotionally involved and afraid that their son isn't going to have an opportunity to achieve his goal that they are going to spend whatever they can to ensure he has that opportunity. Parents want to buy "Dream Insurance". Seizing the moment the astute businessman (or businesswoman) realizes the parents frame of mind and begins selling their promises of a "college scholarship".
...Or,in this case, "Professional instruction..., for all the right reasons"...
Harsh reality, baseball is big business.
I am really reluctant to post, but am just flabbergasted that baseball may be headed in this direction. I think kids under HS should be having fun! I think parents need to let kids have fun!
I agree with justbaseball & others who see NO need for this.
Marketing= Creating the illusion of consumer need, benefit.
I may get slammed (either publicly or privately) for posting my thoughts about this thread. But I have to say that I feel uncomfortable with some of what's been said.
I have no problem with people posting their opinions about whether organized events are necessary or a good idea for the younger group, age 11-14.
Where I have the problem is when people start to imply that it is unethical or greedy for any baseball organization to offer opportunities like this on the market, and charge money to those parents who choose to send their kids. Maybe I'm a little oversensitive on that point, because I've been criticized for accepting advertising or sponsorships to support this site. I know it would be a great show of "integrity" on my part to just pay the $7,000 to $10,000 per year in direct costs for our site out of my own pocket. Sorry if that sounds off topic, but it is related. Honestly, I feel very sad when people who know Perfect Game and know that they have been the primary sponsor and voluntary supporter of this site, use this forum to not just criticize them, but to imply bad motives.
I guess I'll stop there. Sorry if I've offended anyone, but I have the right to post my opinion too.
Julie
P.S. I do see that someone deleted the post above mine, which is part of what I was responding to. I don't know who deleted that, but I don't object.
I have no problem with people posting their opinions about whether organized events are necessary or a good idea for the younger group, age 11-14.
Where I have the problem is when people start to imply that it is unethical or greedy for any baseball organization to offer opportunities like this on the market, and charge money to those parents who choose to send their kids. Maybe I'm a little oversensitive on that point, because I've been criticized for accepting advertising or sponsorships to support this site. I know it would be a great show of "integrity" on my part to just pay the $7,000 to $10,000 per year in direct costs for our site out of my own pocket. Sorry if that sounds off topic, but it is related. Honestly, I feel very sad when people who know Perfect Game and know that they have been the primary sponsor and voluntary supporter of this site, use this forum to not just criticize them, but to imply bad motives.
I guess I'll stop there. Sorry if I've offended anyone, but I have the right to post my opinion too.
Julie
P.S. I do see that someone deleted the post above mine, which is part of what I was responding to. I don't know who deleted that, but I don't object.
I believe everyone who disagrees with the idea of PGY has done so with respect for the Perfect Game program. I also believe the decision to have a PGY is more of a philosophical debate regarding the age group than anything else. PG has done of good job of stating Perfect Game's position. Others have stated their opinion on the positive side. There isn't an attempt to attack Perfect Game. I just disagree along with some others.quote:.... use this forum to not just criticize them, but to imply bad motives.
As for your operation of this site, it would be ridiculous for you to run it at your own expense.
Julie,
This is unbelievable, but I just wrote a response and was ready to make a reply to this thread when I read your post.
On a sad note, reading some of these comments, as well intentioned as some might be, really hurts. I don't have a problem with disagreement, but some of the comments seem to question our honesty and integrity. People who know me the best, know that these things are the very most important to me. Much more important than business and money, in fact! It's all about reputation! It hurts even more when your "friends" go public with things that newcomers might use to form their initial opinions. I know which comments are simply based on personal opinion and meant to be helpful to everyone. I know some of the people here who really do want to help others. It's just that this is read by many and it is a "public forum.
I think if anyone were to take the time to read every post here very closely and at the same time put yourself in my shoes, it would be easy to see the words that might bother me. Perhaps we could call them "trigger" words!
On a lighter note, I'm thinking about changing my username to something a bit more appropriate. Any ideas???? How about "SCAM ARTIST" or maybe "GIMME YOUR $$$". No I think I'll just go with "SATIN"! Wait how about "CHILD ABUSER"? Maybe we can put a nice little slogan at the top of all our PG websites, something like... "We cheat the other guy and pass the savings on to you."
On a serious note...
There already is an identification process going on to some degree even if it is just locally or regionally. I chuckle when I hear people talking about their son making the “ALL-STAR” team. Isn’t that a form of identifying or ranking a young player? Don’t we all know that at least some of that “all-star ranking” is based on politics or relationships rather than ability? This goes on all over the country. USA Baseball now competes internationally at the 14U level. How could they possibly know who the top players are who should represent the USA? Do they try to find them after they’ve turned age 14? Should they simply pick up a few good players and go compete. Is either way really fair? Will those not recognized lose interest in baseball and quit? Will those who do play benefit? After all, not many things could be a bigger recognition, more identification, than being named to represent your country in International competition.
It might be true that the best 12-13 year old will not be the best 18 year old, but there is a very good chance that the best 12-13 year old could easily become one of the top 14 year olds.
There are many other “good” things that we saw in this before signing off on it. We have seen the unrealistic parents who thought there sons were among the best in the world. That is because they actually were among the best in “their” world. Once those parents actually see the rest of the world, often their attitude changes from, “We have a future Major Leaguer” to “We have a long way to go”. I personally feel this is a good thing… you could call this part of the education.
I’m not selling anything here. We are not involved in order to profit. We see that others have already started the ball rolling in this arena. PG Youth is not the first. If it is going to happen, we would like to see it done the best possible way.
Nearly every day, I look in here I see people posting or talking about things that we (I) know for a fact are a complete waste of time and money. Yet, we (I) never post anything negative about things. Sometimes these things get bragged up by brand new posters. Then there are some things we do (ie. National Underclass Showcase) which have helped so many outstanding players it even amazes us… get unflattering remarks or suggestions for people to save their money… often by brand new posters. Think about this… How often do people “go public” telling others who they have never even met, how or what to spend their money on unless they have been cheated.
This is a great site and I’m all for the truth. But there are also people who post here just once or a couple times to either brag up something or tear something down. Am I the only one that sees these agendas? I really like this site and enjoy the people. There are many people who have been to PG events who post here. We don’t run around telling people at our events to join HSBBW and post nice things about us. Ask around here and see if that is true! This site is all about enjoyment for us, actually just for me, and I’m not involved in marketing or sales. I don’t come on here looking for business. Not to sound over confident, but we don’t need to be here to get kids and teams to come to PG events. Has anyone ever seen us start a post advertising any PG event? Yet, I’m sure that some have come to PG events because of what others have posted here. I could easily go on here as some fictitious person and say great things about PG, but that would be dishonest IMO.
There is so much going on where people are being taken advantage of. I sure don’t want our name to be associated with those things. We have stayed away from areas that could have been much more profitable with a fraction of the effort and expense. College Recruiting Service, surely people would understand why that might be extremely profitable for PG. We once thought we could easily become one of the top Sports Agencies in baseball if we wanted to. After all, we often see and get to know the top players before any agent/advisor out there. Often people call us asking for advice as to which advisor they should choose. We didn’t do want to do that even though it appeared that it would be VERY profitable, because it would have been a conflict of interest with our scouting report service. How much credibility would our information have to a scouting director if he knew we also were a players advisor and stood to profit? BTW, for those who might not know we do have a valuable relationship with most all of the 30 MLB Scouting Directors and you would be very surprised to know just how much we are involved.
So lending our name to something we think might benefit youth baseball at the highest levels, was done with good intentions. I’m fairly certain that we have spent much more time studying this than most people. We had many of the same concerns as others that have been brought up here. We still do, but we think there are more good things than bad things involved.
Sorry for this novel. I still love this site and the people who really care about what this site is all about. Julie, you're the greatest!
This is unbelievable, but I just wrote a response and was ready to make a reply to this thread when I read your post.
On a sad note, reading some of these comments, as well intentioned as some might be, really hurts. I don't have a problem with disagreement, but some of the comments seem to question our honesty and integrity. People who know me the best, know that these things are the very most important to me. Much more important than business and money, in fact! It's all about reputation! It hurts even more when your "friends" go public with things that newcomers might use to form their initial opinions. I know which comments are simply based on personal opinion and meant to be helpful to everyone. I know some of the people here who really do want to help others. It's just that this is read by many and it is a "public forum.
I think if anyone were to take the time to read every post here very closely and at the same time put yourself in my shoes, it would be easy to see the words that might bother me. Perhaps we could call them "trigger" words!
On a lighter note, I'm thinking about changing my username to something a bit more appropriate. Any ideas???? How about "SCAM ARTIST" or maybe "GIMME YOUR $$$". No I think I'll just go with "SATIN"! Wait how about "CHILD ABUSER"? Maybe we can put a nice little slogan at the top of all our PG websites, something like... "We cheat the other guy and pass the savings on to you."
On a serious note...
There already is an identification process going on to some degree even if it is just locally or regionally. I chuckle when I hear people talking about their son making the “ALL-STAR” team. Isn’t that a form of identifying or ranking a young player? Don’t we all know that at least some of that “all-star ranking” is based on politics or relationships rather than ability? This goes on all over the country. USA Baseball now competes internationally at the 14U level. How could they possibly know who the top players are who should represent the USA? Do they try to find them after they’ve turned age 14? Should they simply pick up a few good players and go compete. Is either way really fair? Will those not recognized lose interest in baseball and quit? Will those who do play benefit? After all, not many things could be a bigger recognition, more identification, than being named to represent your country in International competition.
It might be true that the best 12-13 year old will not be the best 18 year old, but there is a very good chance that the best 12-13 year old could easily become one of the top 14 year olds.
There are many other “good” things that we saw in this before signing off on it. We have seen the unrealistic parents who thought there sons were among the best in the world. That is because they actually were among the best in “their” world. Once those parents actually see the rest of the world, often their attitude changes from, “We have a future Major Leaguer” to “We have a long way to go”. I personally feel this is a good thing… you could call this part of the education.
I’m not selling anything here. We are not involved in order to profit. We see that others have already started the ball rolling in this arena. PG Youth is not the first. If it is going to happen, we would like to see it done the best possible way.
Nearly every day, I look in here I see people posting or talking about things that we (I) know for a fact are a complete waste of time and money. Yet, we (I) never post anything negative about things. Sometimes these things get bragged up by brand new posters. Then there are some things we do (ie. National Underclass Showcase) which have helped so many outstanding players it even amazes us… get unflattering remarks or suggestions for people to save their money… often by brand new posters. Think about this… How often do people “go public” telling others who they have never even met, how or what to spend their money on unless they have been cheated.
This is a great site and I’m all for the truth. But there are also people who post here just once or a couple times to either brag up something or tear something down. Am I the only one that sees these agendas? I really like this site and enjoy the people. There are many people who have been to PG events who post here. We don’t run around telling people at our events to join HSBBW and post nice things about us. Ask around here and see if that is true! This site is all about enjoyment for us, actually just for me, and I’m not involved in marketing or sales. I don’t come on here looking for business. Not to sound over confident, but we don’t need to be here to get kids and teams to come to PG events. Has anyone ever seen us start a post advertising any PG event? Yet, I’m sure that some have come to PG events because of what others have posted here. I could easily go on here as some fictitious person and say great things about PG, but that would be dishonest IMO.
There is so much going on where people are being taken advantage of. I sure don’t want our name to be associated with those things. We have stayed away from areas that could have been much more profitable with a fraction of the effort and expense. College Recruiting Service, surely people would understand why that might be extremely profitable for PG. We once thought we could easily become one of the top Sports Agencies in baseball if we wanted to. After all, we often see and get to know the top players before any agent/advisor out there. Often people call us asking for advice as to which advisor they should choose. We didn’t do want to do that even though it appeared that it would be VERY profitable, because it would have been a conflict of interest with our scouting report service. How much credibility would our information have to a scouting director if he knew we also were a players advisor and stood to profit? BTW, for those who might not know we do have a valuable relationship with most all of the 30 MLB Scouting Directors and you would be very surprised to know just how much we are involved.
So lending our name to something we think might benefit youth baseball at the highest levels, was done with good intentions. I’m fairly certain that we have spent much more time studying this than most people. We had many of the same concerns as others that have been brought up here. We still do, but we think there are more good things than bad things involved.
Sorry for this novel. I still love this site and the people who really care about what this site is all about. Julie, you're the greatest!
If it makes you feel any better I disagree with this too. I know where it leads. It leads to a 12U national team. Then we'll need to ID nine and ten year olds. But, it's my opinion not a condemnation.quote:USA Baseball now competes internationally at the 14U level.
I have nothing but good things to say about the Perfect Game high school showcases based on talks with those who have been involved, conversations on this site and my personal research.
RJM,
I have no problem with disagreements or opinions.
We (WWBA) hold a 14U Championship with many of the top teams and players in the country. There are many talented kids involved as I'm sure you realize.
These talented kids were not all first identified after they turned 14 IMO. Some of them will become top 17-18 year old players. The longer we know them, the more we know about them.
Your opinion could end up being correct. It is possible that we are making a mistake. If so, we will try to correct that. At least regarding our name being involved.
Thanks for the nice words.
I have no problem with disagreements or opinions.
We (WWBA) hold a 14U Championship with many of the top teams and players in the country. There are many talented kids involved as I'm sure you realize.
These talented kids were not all first identified after they turned 14 IMO. Some of them will become top 17-18 year old players. The longer we know them, the more we know about them.
Your opinion could end up being correct. It is possible that we are making a mistake. If so, we will try to correct that. At least regarding our name being involved.
Thanks for the nice words.
I guess the reason I get a little frustrated and sometimes a lot sad about this topic is because of what I know "behind the scenes".
Sure, people see Perfect Game's success and assume they must be making a lot of money. I think some would be surprised if they realized the huge expenses of running a fulltime, year 'round professional scouting organization like that. But I have seen over and over again, behind the scenes, that money is far from their primary goal.
Sorry if this long story bores anyone, but I'll tell it anyway.
My family first met PGStaff (Jerry) when my husband and son went to a small regional PG showcase almost 6 years ago. They were impressed by how down-to-earth he was, and how genuine and friendly all of the staff was at the PG facility.
Fast forward to 3-1/2 years ago when I became the new owner of this site. I was determined to always keep it free for members, but there was significant expense involved in running it - at that time a couple hundred $ per month in hosting cost, which has since risen as high as $888 the most expensive month.
When I took over the site I heard from a number of "baseball organizations" who seemed to want something from me or the site. But I also heard from Jerry/PGStaff, wanting my address so he could send a check to help pay the expenses. I knew he had donated in the recent past under the previous owner, and asked him to hold off and not send anything for now, while I settled in and paid things out of my pocket for a while.
As the next calendar year rolled around, Jerry learned my address and sent a check anyway, a large donation that (along with a few member donations), made it possible for me to keep paying the expenses without worrying. I thanked him and told him I would like to put up a Perfect Game sponsor banner to acknowledge their support, but he refused. All these other baseball organizations were contacting me wanting to advertise and sell something, but PG just wanted to send money but not let anyone know about their financial support.
Finally, as the expenses continued to grow and I accepted a few more advertisers/sponsors to keep breaking even, I insisted to Jerry that he let me put up a sponsor banner. He still refused, saying that he thought this site was beneficial to baseball players and their families, and just wanted to support that, but didn't need any "thanks". I "nagged" him for several months. My argument was that it wasn't fair for other new sponsors to get recognition for their support, when Perfect Game was the main contributor keeping these forums free for members. As you can see, he finally consented, and we now have a Perfect Game banner in the General forum and the showcase forum.
Sorry if this has rambled on - I did warn you that it would be a long story! But over the years I have seen from my little corner of the world, how Perfect Game does good things for baseball players and their families, with very generous and unselfish motives. I've received reports from many parents about how PG or Jerry personally has helped their son, outside of anything to do with a paid showcase participation. So yes, it does bother me, and even hurt a bit, when I see comments from people that seem to imply a bad motive. That implication would be very far from the truth.
Julie
Sure, people see Perfect Game's success and assume they must be making a lot of money. I think some would be surprised if they realized the huge expenses of running a fulltime, year 'round professional scouting organization like that. But I have seen over and over again, behind the scenes, that money is far from their primary goal.
Sorry if this long story bores anyone, but I'll tell it anyway.
My family first met PGStaff (Jerry) when my husband and son went to a small regional PG showcase almost 6 years ago. They were impressed by how down-to-earth he was, and how genuine and friendly all of the staff was at the PG facility.
Fast forward to 3-1/2 years ago when I became the new owner of this site. I was determined to always keep it free for members, but there was significant expense involved in running it - at that time a couple hundred $ per month in hosting cost, which has since risen as high as $888 the most expensive month.
When I took over the site I heard from a number of "baseball organizations" who seemed to want something from me or the site. But I also heard from Jerry/PGStaff, wanting my address so he could send a check to help pay the expenses. I knew he had donated in the recent past under the previous owner, and asked him to hold off and not send anything for now, while I settled in and paid things out of my pocket for a while.
As the next calendar year rolled around, Jerry learned my address and sent a check anyway, a large donation that (along with a few member donations), made it possible for me to keep paying the expenses without worrying. I thanked him and told him I would like to put up a Perfect Game sponsor banner to acknowledge their support, but he refused. All these other baseball organizations were contacting me wanting to advertise and sell something, but PG just wanted to send money but not let anyone know about their financial support.
Finally, as the expenses continued to grow and I accepted a few more advertisers/sponsors to keep breaking even, I insisted to Jerry that he let me put up a sponsor banner. He still refused, saying that he thought this site was beneficial to baseball players and their families, and just wanted to support that, but didn't need any "thanks". I "nagged" him for several months. My argument was that it wasn't fair for other new sponsors to get recognition for their support, when Perfect Game was the main contributor keeping these forums free for members. As you can see, he finally consented, and we now have a Perfect Game banner in the General forum and the showcase forum.
Sorry if this has rambled on - I did warn you that it would be a long story! But over the years I have seen from my little corner of the world, how Perfect Game does good things for baseball players and their families, with very generous and unselfish motives. I've received reports from many parents about how PG or Jerry personally has helped their son, outside of anything to do with a paid showcase participation. So yes, it does bother me, and even hurt a bit, when I see comments from people that seem to imply a bad motive. That implication would be very far from the truth.
Julie
First, we all know that PG runs the best tournaments and showcases for HS players. He has tremendous respect from everyone here. I myself can tell you that I have received many pm's asking about which events to attend, and PG has always been my suggestion. I see firsthand how they operate and it's all first class. They make mistakes they work to correct them. This last PG event is so much different than the first attended.I have even directed parents who have not felt happy about their experience to PG himself. I even asked if he needed help at the events and they gave son a job. PG knows that I don't always agree with him as well. I know that for PGJerry it's not about the money. I understand that.
Funny I was going to tell someone today who runs another site that he posts too much info on prospects from BA. He told me he lives right outside of Cedar Rapids and I was going to tell him he should talk and interview the people at PG, not at BA. Now that's good for PG!
Why would someone do that if they didn't beleive that you all recognize the best high school draft prospects?
I think that it's understood that all things being equal are open for discussion and people have a right to express how they feel about youth sports in general, whether it be PG or any other organization. I feel the same about as RJM does about USA and how some feel about looking for talent at 11-14. Even you yourself stated that you had concerns. I will tell you I dislike ALL these type of events for that age and have said so for years. I hate advisory services and those that pray on parents to take their money and give nothing in return. Personally, not sure if the info should have been brought to our attention to begin with, but I don't think that was not done with ill intentions. There has been no intent to harm here and PG doesn't need our opinions on how to do business or who to do business with. I see it as friends discussing what another friend is doing. I see your side and hope that you see the other as well. If my post was seen as an attack it was not the intention, just the way I saw the new PGY.
It's kind of confusing, you are not doing it but it is Perfect Game Youth. Is that confusing?
I learn alot from PG's posts and I am sure he has learned from some of us as well.
So how about this, now that I may have most likely totally ticked off both Julie and Jerry, why not look for the positive in this discussion. I understand what PGY may be trying to accomplish, but maybe perhaps the original intention is not getting through, and we are folks who heard it straight from PG but still confused. Why not take what you read here as criticism and try to make adjustments? Call it positive feedback.
Well, I have been here for many years and always known for letting my opinions heard, so I didn't think that I should stop now.
I guess I was one included in PG and Julie's post. And at this point have said more than I should. I still go by my original thoughts, why not help in identifying the talent that doesn't have these opportunities, that would be a GREAT thing for baseball. That would be the best thing for youth basball.
Funny I was going to tell someone today who runs another site that he posts too much info on prospects from BA. He told me he lives right outside of Cedar Rapids and I was going to tell him he should talk and interview the people at PG, not at BA. Now that's good for PG!
Why would someone do that if they didn't beleive that you all recognize the best high school draft prospects?
I think that it's understood that all things being equal are open for discussion and people have a right to express how they feel about youth sports in general, whether it be PG or any other organization. I feel the same about as RJM does about USA and how some feel about looking for talent at 11-14. Even you yourself stated that you had concerns. I will tell you I dislike ALL these type of events for that age and have said so for years. I hate advisory services and those that pray on parents to take their money and give nothing in return. Personally, not sure if the info should have been brought to our attention to begin with, but I don't think that was not done with ill intentions. There has been no intent to harm here and PG doesn't need our opinions on how to do business or who to do business with. I see it as friends discussing what another friend is doing. I see your side and hope that you see the other as well. If my post was seen as an attack it was not the intention, just the way I saw the new PGY.
It's kind of confusing, you are not doing it but it is Perfect Game Youth. Is that confusing?
I learn alot from PG's posts and I am sure he has learned from some of us as well.
So how about this, now that I may have most likely totally ticked off both Julie and Jerry, why not look for the positive in this discussion. I understand what PGY may be trying to accomplish, but maybe perhaps the original intention is not getting through, and we are folks who heard it straight from PG but still confused. Why not take what you read here as criticism and try to make adjustments? Call it positive feedback.
Well, I have been here for many years and always known for letting my opinions heard, so I didn't think that I should stop now.
I guess I was one included in PG and Julie's post. And at this point have said more than I should. I still go by my original thoughts, why not help in identifying the talent that doesn't have these opportunities, that would be a GREAT thing for baseball. That would be the best thing for youth basball.quote:I still go by my original thoughts, why not help in identifying the talent that doesn't have these opportunities, that would be a GREAT thing for baseball. That would be the best thing for youth basball.
That WOULD be a great thing! If we are talking about Perfect Game... I can't even count how many times we have recognized/ranked/recognized players who had never attended our events over the years. However, I would be all ears if someone could tell us how to identify even more talented players. Because I can't think of any realistic way to see every player in the country without it costing many millions of dollars.
Right or wrong, there may be a market for this type of service. The question is if the market can support the service, who would you rather be supporting it (even from afar), a quality group like PerfectGame who does it right or some other organization who truly is in it for other reasons.
There were other organizations that provided showcase services, one of which provided a good product and charged in various ways for their services, and then they were acquired by another organization. Turned out the business model changed and all of the sudden the player information, ratings, and rankings stopped getting updated and ultimately were dropped and access to their information removed/restricted after 100’s of players paid for the services, some just before a couple of groups’ recruiting cycles. Hopefully the group delivers what they promise.
The youth groups of 11-14 has huge numbers since most have not yet been weeded out at the high school level.
When we got into travel ball, there were already “studs” identified that travel teams would go out and recruit for their teams, some of which would pay for their fees or travel cost as an incentive to play for their team, so there already was an “unofficial” market of who are the best at a young age. Like TBS does now at the younger age groups, there were other travel team ranking groups several years back at the young youth level, the only problem was it was controlled by the input of those “paid member” teams who can vote for who are the top teams and update game information. We had beaten what was supposed to be the top 13U team in the country late in the season as rated by this group, we were not part of the voting group, the other team was, so they recorded a different score than the 10 run rule game we put on them, we just laughed.
One last thing about these young age groups is that the parents are very involved and emotional about their player, many have not learned to let it go and remove them selves from the process and let their player demonstrate their skills on the field, so it could be pretty rough on the rating and ranking groups. It should also be interesting if they are going to rate on actual skills or projected skills. Some of the parents are not going to like what they hear and may discourage some kids from progressing even though they may not have matured enough to meet anywhere near their potential even if they are supposed to be the top 100 in their age group.
There were other organizations that provided showcase services, one of which provided a good product and charged in various ways for their services, and then they were acquired by another organization. Turned out the business model changed and all of the sudden the player information, ratings, and rankings stopped getting updated and ultimately were dropped and access to their information removed/restricted after 100’s of players paid for the services, some just before a couple of groups’ recruiting cycles. Hopefully the group delivers what they promise.
The youth groups of 11-14 has huge numbers since most have not yet been weeded out at the high school level.
When we got into travel ball, there were already “studs” identified that travel teams would go out and recruit for their teams, some of which would pay for their fees or travel cost as an incentive to play for their team, so there already was an “unofficial” market of who are the best at a young age. Like TBS does now at the younger age groups, there were other travel team ranking groups several years back at the young youth level, the only problem was it was controlled by the input of those “paid member” teams who can vote for who are the top teams and update game information. We had beaten what was supposed to be the top 13U team in the country late in the season as rated by this group, we were not part of the voting group, the other team was, so they recorded a different score than the 10 run rule game we put on them, we just laughed.
One last thing about these young age groups is that the parents are very involved and emotional about their player, many have not learned to let it go and remove them selves from the process and let their player demonstrate their skills on the field, so it could be pretty rough on the rating and ranking groups. It should also be interesting if they are going to rate on actual skills or projected skills. Some of the parents are not going to like what they hear and may discourage some kids from progressing even though they may not have matured enough to meet anywhere near their potential even if they are supposed to be the top 100 in their age group.
homerun04, that was a really good post. You really hit a nerve there when you were talking about how some travel teams would give incentives to certain "stud" players. I remember when Bum, Jr. was 13 I had a pretty good year, business-wise, and paid for a Canada tournament for his team. Being the nice guy. The next week by pure chance I drove by the local field and saw the coach, his son, and several other players from that team playing in another local tournament.. Bum, Jr. was not invited. That really ticked me off.
(Not to worry, none of those other players are playing college baseball.)
It happens. Youth baseball is crazy-political. The one thing I am certain of is, at least PG will take the politics out of this thing, and the kids will play based on talent, desire, hustle and heart. Baseball as it should be.
(Not to worry, none of those other players are playing college baseball.)
It happens. Youth baseball is crazy-political. The one thing I am certain of is, at least PG will take the politics out of this thing, and the kids will play based on talent, desire, hustle and heart. Baseball as it should be.
Many of us that post here have been here awhile, have older players, and have learned alot along the way from this site and just from going through the process. With this hard earned knowledge we have made decisions for our sons, some turned out right, and others maybe were a waste of time and money.
But, if there is no market for PGY then it will founder with time. Who are we, as experienced parents to say that it is wrong to rank this age group? We can give our advice to posters that ask but ultimately they get to make their own decision to spend or not spend the money for their younger players.
Time will tell if this is a viable business and it may take care of itself anyway.
The smart parents will read hsbbweb with all it's free and hard earned advice. All they have to do is ask us, between all of us we probably know most of the answers.
But, if there is no market for PGY then it will founder with time. Who are we, as experienced parents to say that it is wrong to rank this age group? We can give our advice to posters that ask but ultimately they get to make their own decision to spend or not spend the money for their younger players.
Time will tell if this is a viable business and it may take care of itself anyway.
The smart parents will read hsbbweb with all it's free and hard earned advice. All they have to do is ask us, between all of us we probably know most of the answers.
PGStaff and MN-Mom,
In the year and a half I have been visiting this site I have come to the conclusion that both of you personally, and the businesses you represent, are beyond reproach as far as your ethics and intentions are concerned. IMO you both have the best interests of our players as your top priority in all discussions. The fact that this site is run at no profit, with the impact that is has, and that PG is not making a dime on PGY, is a testament to how I feel.
My opinion, that I see no real value to the rating of 11-13 yos. does not reflect on Perfect Game whatsoever. My opinion is based on the high level of emotion that 99% of parents have when our kids are at this age. Walk by any little field and you can hear that emotion. IMO when emotions are high, usually irrational behavior is not far behind. Tell a father that you think his kid is highly talented and then give him a flier about a new rating system for 11 year olds, and the chances are he will go for it. If I could afford it I probably would have.
Personally I have only learned how little it mattered how good my son played at 10 or 11 now that he is 16. It all seemed so important at those tournament games 5 or 6 years ago. The only thing that really mattered was that he liked playing baseball, had fun doing it and got better each winter if he choose to do so. Really what would it have mattered if someone rated him one of the best players in New Jersey or the Mid Atlantic region back then. I think nothing. Now if someone wants to tell me that, at 16, he fits those descriptions I'm all ears!
Like others have said, time and the market will tell if PGY is successful regardless of how any of us feel.
In the year and a half I have been visiting this site I have come to the conclusion that both of you personally, and the businesses you represent, are beyond reproach as far as your ethics and intentions are concerned. IMO you both have the best interests of our players as your top priority in all discussions. The fact that this site is run at no profit, with the impact that is has, and that PG is not making a dime on PGY, is a testament to how I feel.
My opinion, that I see no real value to the rating of 11-13 yos. does not reflect on Perfect Game whatsoever. My opinion is based on the high level of emotion that 99% of parents have when our kids are at this age. Walk by any little field and you can hear that emotion. IMO when emotions are high, usually irrational behavior is not far behind. Tell a father that you think his kid is highly talented and then give him a flier about a new rating system for 11 year olds, and the chances are he will go for it. If I could afford it I probably would have.
Personally I have only learned how little it mattered how good my son played at 10 or 11 now that he is 16. It all seemed so important at those tournament games 5 or 6 years ago. The only thing that really mattered was that he liked playing baseball, had fun doing it and got better each winter if he choose to do so. Really what would it have mattered if someone rated him one of the best players in New Jersey or the Mid Atlantic region back then. I think nothing. Now if someone wants to tell me that, at 16, he fits those descriptions I'm all ears!
Like others have said, time and the market will tell if PGY is successful regardless of how any of us feel.
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:quote:I still go by my original thoughts, why not help in identifying the talent that doesn't have these opportunities, that would be a GREAT thing for baseball. That would be the best thing for youth basball.
That WOULD be a great thing! If we are talking about Perfect Game... I can't even count how many times we have recognized/ranked/recognized players who had never attended our events over the years. However, I would be all ears if someone could tell us how to identify even more talented players. Because I can't think of any realistic way to see every player in the country without it costing many millions of dollars.
I have a great idea, similar to MLB inner city programs on a really small scale. Available to only those who cannot afford fees (not just PG) for showcases, travel to tourneys.
But I am not sharing anymore on how to do it on a public message board.
quote:The fact that this site is run at no profit, with the impact that is has, and that PG is not making a dime on PGY, is a testament
quote:the businesses you represent, are beyond reproach as far as your ethics and intentions are concerned.
Why is is that a business must operate at "no profit", or "not make a dime", to be considered ethical, or "beyond reproach"?
In other threads here on this website, a business' ethics and intentions are being questioned, that is quite likely operating at "no profit", or "not making a dime".
Which one would you rather do business with?
Are you beyond reproach or ethically challenged because you accept pay for your work as an employee?
Perfect Game is a business. The business of Perfect Game is to evaluate and report on athletic talent. Their services are priced according to what the market will accept. They have demonstrated time and again, here on this website, in the market place, and, in person to many, their motives and that their ethics are "beyond reproach". They are very good at what they do, and deserve to be reward financially, according to that performance.
Can all afford their services?
No.
I can't afford every automobile I might want to purchase either.
Should ALL players be evaluated by Perfect Game?
No.
If your son has demonstrated a performance level on the baseball field that you believe might allow him to participate beyond high school, then an evaluation might be appropriate. The information that they learn about you son can be an important marketing tool.
My observation has been, and I think PGStaff has also indicated, that the MOST talented probably do not require their services, but do benefit by being more effectively marketed. The middle of the talent pack probably benefits the most from them by gaining exposure to broader markets. If your son is not talented enough to play at the next level, paying Perfect Game money will not benefit your son.
The ulimate evaluator of your son's talent will be a college recruiter, or MLB scout. They don't charge a dime, and, if your son is good enough, they will find you. That requires faith from those looking ahead and willingness to listen to those that have been there.
This site is not "free". It has no cost to the end user, but MN-Mom has contributed her time, talents, and funds to the operation of this site.
Perfect Game has contributed part of their "loot" towards the operation of this site.
How would they do that if they did not operate profitably?
Some of you have proposed grand plans to have Perfect Game, MLB, or such organizations to find those with talent that cannot afford to pay for exposure and provide them the service for free, or on a cost basis. Always someone else with the deep pockets to pay.
So, those of you with the grandiose plans for everything to be free and be taken care of by someone else, would you be willing to send hsbaseballweb $10 to benefit that same group?
Donate?
FO - good points.
Feelings run deep, nobody is immune from having their feelings hurt and nobody is immune from hurting someone elses feelings...
Some humor...
I thought ob44 was the funniest awhile back when he commented that the logical extension of this is when we start ranking test tubes. Perhaps we could even rank a bunch of sperm test tubes and a bunch of egg test tubes and then argue which ones would make the best combinations. Would make some pretty good hot stove discussions imho
Some thoughts...
PG made a point I had not considered before. Local all-star selections are a form of ranking. Since that is the case, I am willing to let the market determine whether or not ranking on a larger scale is a good idea.
The harm...
The same as it has always been before we even had showcases. Anyone ever heard of Jimmy Piersol? Apparently his dad was overzealous and caused him mental problems later in life. Someone once accused me of being a Jimmy Piersol parent here on the hsbbweb when I advocated that it is almost impossible to make the high school team without being a travel ball player. That comment hurt my feelings. I was probably wrong in my assessment and I think they went too far in their assessment.
I see parents everyday taking the information garnered from these events too far. The information is useful to reach a goal such as to facilitate playing in college or getting drafted. It does not make someone smarter than the next guy because his kid is rated 100 times higher than some other kid. Many people let it (a good ranking) go to their heads and no one will ever convince me that is a good thing. I continue to follow many kids whose parents post here on the hsbbweb. I have observed a pretty good correlation between the better the player, the more humble the parent. Obviously, that is not always the case but is noted in my non-scientific obervations nonetheless.
For those that like to interact here, be mindful of how your words might play in public. If they have the potential to hurt, perhaps they do not need to be spoken. Last year, a top 40 college ranking was posted and my son's school was left off. I really did not mind that since I believe things are settled on the field. When explanations were then given why they were left off, I started to take it personally and my feelings started to get hurt. One poster even used them as an example of what a dream school is not. Another thread on my son's school, a parent posted that all it took to get in there was a heart beat. I didn't appreciate the implication that my son was somehow not smart nor a good student. Some argued those opinions were fair game but then, they did not have a personal stake. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but words can hurt as shown in this thread.
Feelings run deep, nobody is immune from having their feelings hurt and nobody is immune from hurting someone elses feelings...
Some humor...
I thought ob44 was the funniest awhile back when he commented that the logical extension of this is when we start ranking test tubes. Perhaps we could even rank a bunch of sperm test tubes and a bunch of egg test tubes and then argue which ones would make the best combinations. Would make some pretty good hot stove discussions imho
Some thoughts...
PG made a point I had not considered before. Local all-star selections are a form of ranking. Since that is the case, I am willing to let the market determine whether or not ranking on a larger scale is a good idea.
The harm...
The same as it has always been before we even had showcases. Anyone ever heard of Jimmy Piersol? Apparently his dad was overzealous and caused him mental problems later in life. Someone once accused me of being a Jimmy Piersol parent here on the hsbbweb when I advocated that it is almost impossible to make the high school team without being a travel ball player. That comment hurt my feelings. I was probably wrong in my assessment and I think they went too far in their assessment.
I see parents everyday taking the information garnered from these events too far. The information is useful to reach a goal such as to facilitate playing in college or getting drafted. It does not make someone smarter than the next guy because his kid is rated 100 times higher than some other kid. Many people let it (a good ranking) go to their heads and no one will ever convince me that is a good thing. I continue to follow many kids whose parents post here on the hsbbweb. I have observed a pretty good correlation between the better the player, the more humble the parent. Obviously, that is not always the case but is noted in my non-scientific obervations nonetheless.
For those that like to interact here, be mindful of how your words might play in public. If they have the potential to hurt, perhaps they do not need to be spoken. Last year, a top 40 college ranking was posted and my son's school was left off. I really did not mind that since I believe things are settled on the field. When explanations were then given why they were left off, I started to take it personally and my feelings started to get hurt. One poster even used them as an example of what a dream school is not. Another thread on my son's school, a parent posted that all it took to get in there was a heart beat. I didn't appreciate the implication that my son was somehow not smart nor a good student. Some argued those opinions were fair game but then, they did not have a personal stake. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but words can hurt as shown in this thread.
The fact that this site is run at no profit, with the impact that is has, and that PG is not making a dime on PGY, is a testament.
FormerObserver,
If you are going to quote me, or anyone, make sure you quote the whole sentence. You left out "to how I feel" after testament. I have my opinion and it is based on a few observations, profit or lack of it, is only one of them.
Quote FO:
"Why is is that a business must operate at "no profit", or "not make a dime", to be considered ethical, or "beyond reproach"?"
Sometimes when people do things without an obvious financial benefit it does, IMO, make their actions purer. And, I don't think there was anything in my post that said for profit was bad. A former employer of mine made tons of money and he was also beyond reproach. I also formed my opinion from observations. FO, don't assume a persons intent from reading a couple of condensed sentences or paragraphs.
In one of his books Stephen Covey talks about doing the right thing for the right reason. I think that can be accomplished whether someone is making money or not. In the examples I gave, MN-Mom and PG, I believe they both are doing just that regardless of their profit margins.
FormerObserver,
If you are going to quote me, or anyone, make sure you quote the whole sentence. You left out "to how I feel" after testament. I have my opinion and it is based on a few observations, profit or lack of it, is only one of them.
Quote FO:
"Why is is that a business must operate at "no profit", or "not make a dime", to be considered ethical, or "beyond reproach"?"
Sometimes when people do things without an obvious financial benefit it does, IMO, make their actions purer. And, I don't think there was anything in my post that said for profit was bad. A former employer of mine made tons of money and he was also beyond reproach. I also formed my opinion from observations. FO, don't assume a persons intent from reading a couple of condensed sentences or paragraphs.
In one of his books Stephen Covey talks about doing the right thing for the right reason. I think that can be accomplished whether someone is making money or not. In the examples I gave, MN-Mom and PG, I believe they both are doing just that regardless of their profit margins.
fillsfan,
I did use some of your words, but I did not intend to quote you. I intentionally left out some of the words because I did not want to refer to you specifically, although I did realize that it would be indirectly attributed back to you.
My comments were directed entirely at the determination of a business' ethical qualifications based solely on whether it is operated for profit, or not.
The concept that showcases operate for profit and, therefore, must not have the participants best interest is often presented here.
It struck me as ironic that we have discussions of the results of what a bad showcase can be at the same time as this discussion.
Whether the Top Gun showcase is ethical or beyond reproach will not matter much if they continue to cancel showcases. Their business reputation will soon begin to suffer if that continues.
IF they are intentionally taking money and not performing, there business will suffer as well, reputation wise, and likely, legally.
A company that offers its services, provides them as indicated, and repeats the process for profit is a successful company that will continue to grow, as Perfect Game has done, ethically, and beyond reproach.
I did use some of your words, but I did not intend to quote you. I intentionally left out some of the words because I did not want to refer to you specifically, although I did realize that it would be indirectly attributed back to you.
My comments were directed entirely at the determination of a business' ethical qualifications based solely on whether it is operated for profit, or not.
The concept that showcases operate for profit and, therefore, must not have the participants best interest is often presented here.
It struck me as ironic that we have discussions of the results of what a bad showcase can be at the same time as this discussion.
Whether the Top Gun showcase is ethical or beyond reproach will not matter much if they continue to cancel showcases. Their business reputation will soon begin to suffer if that continues.
IF they are intentionally taking money and not performing, there business will suffer as well, reputation wise, and likely, legally.
A company that offers its services, provides them as indicated, and repeats the process for profit is a successful company that will continue to grow, as Perfect Game has done, ethically, and beyond reproach.
I think many are missing the point on this. The subject keeps coming around of "Ranking players" but in talking with these guys, that is not the focus. Only a byproduct of the assessments. The ability to get assessments on your kid, while they can still do something about it, is a huge benefit. Not to mention being able to go through a showcase to understand how they need to focus and show their skills in a short amount of time. That has benefits as early as them trying out for a HS team. Maybe this is not the right option for most of the players at this age, but I caution in trying to say that it is not beneficial for "Any" players at this age. I do have some reservations about the 11 and 12 year old groups though.
I believe the intentions are right in what they are trying to offer in this showcase. The problem is the cost which is why, even though my son has been invited, we most likely will not be attending. I do realize, however, that the cost to put one of these events on is the same whether the ages are 11-14 or 15-18. Everyone is understanding with the cost for the older groups but are crying "trying to make money" for the younger group, which I just don't believe is the case.
I do think the market will dictate the cost. If they want 100 players for each age group, at each showcase, and they only get 50, next year it may be $495. That or they will have to come up with a stronger reason to attend. Maybe they team up with USA baseball to do the initial evaluations for the 14U USA Baseball Team. Who knows.
I believe the intentions are right in what they are trying to offer in this showcase. The problem is the cost which is why, even though my son has been invited, we most likely will not be attending. I do realize, however, that the cost to put one of these events on is the same whether the ages are 11-14 or 15-18. Everyone is understanding with the cost for the older groups but are crying "trying to make money" for the younger group, which I just don't believe is the case.
I do think the market will dictate the cost. If they want 100 players for each age group, at each showcase, and they only get 50, next year it may be $495. That or they will have to come up with a stronger reason to attend. Maybe they team up with USA baseball to do the initial evaluations for the 14U USA Baseball Team. Who knows.
For the record, I wouldn't pay, or accept free of charge, to have my 12 year old son evaluated, or ranked with Perfect Game, or, any other profit making, non-profit, or money losing company.
And that is very much your right, FormerObserver. Everyone has to decide what is important for their kid, and what will help them progress, whether that is in their local league, travel team, HS, College, or Pros.
I just deleted my message because I think it might be taken the wrong way by some. No offense intended at all. I'll repost when I figure out how to get a valid point across.
Why is everyone so afraid to SAY ANYTHING THAT might OFFEND?---with that thinking the SOPRANOS would never have become a success
Wake up folks---say what you think--never say I am Sorry if you are sincere in your posts
It is a SAD SAD world that we are becoming when we cannnot say what we think
Wake up folks---say what you think--never say I am Sorry if you are sincere in your posts
It is a SAD SAD world that we are becoming when we cannnot say what we think
"I just deleted my message because I thought it might be taken wrong by some"
Are you kidding me !!!!---speak your mind without retribution---this is a "virtual world"--- if they do not like what you say they can ignore it---
This is what is wrong with our internet country today--freedom of speech has been limited by the
"internet gods" who think they can judge and rule
Are you kidding me !!!!---speak your mind without retribution---this is a "virtual world"--- if they do not like what you say they can ignore it---
This is what is wrong with our internet country today--freedom of speech has been limited by the
"internet gods" who think they can judge and rule
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
Why is everyone so afraid to SAY ANYTHING THAT might OFFEND?---with that thinking the SOPRANOS would never have become a success
Wake up folks---say what you think--never say I am Sorry if you are sincere in your posts
It is a SAD SAD world that we are becoming when we cannnot say what we think
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
"I just deleted my message because I thought it might be taken wrong by some"
Are you kidding me !!!!---speak your mind without retribution---this is a "virtual world"--- if they do not like what you say they can ignore it---
This is what is wrong with our internet country today--freedom of speech has been limited by the
"internet gods" who think they can judge and rule
Did someone get up on the wrong side of the bed
I guess some folks try to be civil when they post!
There you go, I spoke my mind I feel much better now
That's alright, homerun04. Sooner or later we all get the TR lecture. We can either laugh it off, realize he's always right, or both. As for me, I think I'll have another beer.
TRhit is right. People won't lay it on the line. My question is why?
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
Why is everyone so afraid to SAY ANYTHING THAT might OFFEND?---with that thinking the SOPRANOS would never have become a success
Wake up folks---say what you think--never say I am Sorry if you are sincere in your posts
It is a SAD SAD world that we are becoming when we cannnot say what we think
No, beisbol, he is not. 2bmom simply stated she regretted what she posted and removed it. She didn't need to be humiliated publically by a judgmental bully.
I trust that you are sincere, Bum.
My mama taught me to keep my mouth shut and let others think I am a fool, rather than open my mouth and remove all doubt.
I sincerely believe that, but am not always able to comply.
My mama taught me to keep my mouth shut and let others think I am a fool, rather than open my mouth and remove all doubt.
I sincerely believe that, but am not always able to comply.
BUM
That is the problem right there---why is everyone today worried about having their feelings hurt ??
Humiliated ???----you don't know what humiliated is pal !!!
Funny how you can all jump on me but it is wrong if I do it
I am not insulted or feelings hurt--not at all--
That is the problem right there---why is everyone today worried about having their feelings hurt ??
Humiliated ???----you don't know what humiliated is pal !!!
Funny how you can all jump on me but it is wrong if I do it
I am not insulted or feelings hurt--not at all--
I think we all need to understand that internet dialogue will never be easy. We all have to give the benefit of the doubt to the previous posters. I can be as argumentative as the next person but many times it's difficult to tell if that person is actually arguing with me or not .
This type of internet conversation leaves so much to be desired (emoticons do help) that we tend to over dramatize with our choice of words ------ it just escalates from there.
For instance what I really want to say is: --- "Could y'all please stop"!! but I have to remember this is the internet and somebody would probably take it wrong.
Fungo
.This type of internet conversation leaves so much to be desired (emoticons do help) that we tend to over dramatize with our choice of words ------ it just escalates from there.
For instance what I really want to say is: --- "Could y'all please stop"!! but I have to remember this is the internet and somebody would probably take it wrong.
Fungo