Time will tell as to whether PGY is a good thing.
We just can't accept an "everything is fine the way it is" thought process. Everything can get better.
Many years ago when we started doing everything with wood bats, we got a lot of flack. Even from some close friends.
Many years ago when we started doing the Showcases, we got a lot of flack. Even some of our own people got mad about that one.
Many years ago when we started a Iowa wood bat scout league, we got a lot of flack. Now 15 years later every Iowa player whose ever been drafted in that time has come out of that league.
When we started doing "Underclass Events" we got a lot of flack. Even from the scouting and recruiting community. Now recruiting has started earlier than ever and scouting departments have a history on many of the top players.
What I'm saying is... We believe PGY can be valuable to lots of people. We don't think it will harm anyone. We are not going to allow a little flack to get in the way. Time will tell as to whether PGY is a good thing or not.
Fair enough. At least that shows the level of support you are willing to put behind it. Had you folded easily, it would have shown that you were really not that comfortable with the idea and support either.
I think if you were talking about a $150 showcase and deemphasized the "player ranking", I would agree that no one is harmed by it, but $595 and setting kids on a ranking pedestal does have it's adverse effects. Very few can justify affording it, so there will be some players on the list that are there not because they were the top 200 but because they were the top 200 that could afford to come.
Hence my reason for saying to de-emphasize the rankings and concentrate on the evaluations and skills to be learned. That is where the win comes in. Not with the rankings. Especially not at this age.
I think if you were talking about a $150 showcase and deemphasized the "player ranking", I would agree that no one is harmed by it, but $595 and setting kids on a ranking pedestal does have it's adverse effects. Very few can justify affording it, so there will be some players on the list that are there not because they were the top 200 but because they were the top 200 that could afford to come.
Hence my reason for saying to de-emphasize the rankings and concentrate on the evaluations and skills to be learned. That is where the win comes in. Not with the rankings. Especially not at this age.
Let me preface my statement with telling what a great resource PG was to me and my family. At the beginning of my first journey, I would call him on the phone and he would answer all my questions, regardless of how inane they were. We attended two PG events, and found them to be awesome. We were not regulars, but that never seemed to matter to PG. I am now entering that age class with a younger son and am much better informed and prepared largely due to PG. With that said I may be deemed to be one of the crusty ones, but oh well.
It is not PG getting involved in this venture that I worry about. But where PG goes others will follow. Others who do not have the integrity of PG. I have seen, as have others with older kids, the showcase market explode.
For a lot of the people who read this site, may I add that if PG is involved, you are dealing with a first rate organization. As for all of those that will follow behind and try to duplicate PG's efforts, Caveat emptor.
It is not PG getting involved in this venture that I worry about. But where PG goes others will follow. Others who do not have the integrity of PG. I have seen, as have others with older kids, the showcase market explode.
For a lot of the people who read this site, may I add that if PG is involved, you are dealing with a first rate organization. As for all of those that will follow behind and try to duplicate PG's efforts, Caveat emptor.
I'm sorry if this has already been brought up, but I didn't have time to look through all seven pages so far......IMHO, it would be FANTASTIC if PGY were to somehow integrate itself into the Baseball in the Inner Cities concept....or rural America....maybe offer scholarships to kids whose families hardly have the money to keep the lights on, but COULD be something special given the same opportunities. I really respect organizations that aren't afraid to wear their hearts on their sleeves and walk the talk by creating a special arm which is purely charitable.
.
Are those the crunchy green ones or the yellowish sweet ones?
quote:Originally posted by deldad:
Caveat emptor.
Are those the crunchy green ones or the yellowish sweet ones?
I am starting a National Database for the Nation's elite T-Ball players. In Florida we have kids already capable of hitting it out of the infield and running the 60 in under 31 seconds. Who wouldn't love to have their 5-7 YO in this database.
Again, another perfect demonstration of the value of this site! I have learned a great deal, just by reading through the previous 6+ pages.
That said, I do have an opinion. (As a HSBBW newbie, I'll strive to stick to the facts...as I know them.
) However, I may ramble.
First, I have never attended a PG event as a spectator; nor has 27 been invited to one. So, my information is second-hand. However, many of our area's HS coaches are former college, or pro players. Those that I have met have always been honest with me.(As far as I know, anyway.) I have yet to talk with one who doesn't have the highest respect for PG, their events, or their staff.
Second, I know very little about PGY, Dulin, or Garth Iorg. I have, however, met Garth's brother, Dane. And, I have watched how Dane works as a coach. If Garth is anything like his brother, PGY will have a solid foundation from which to grow.
Dane was the Freshman coach this past season at 27's HS, and will coach the JV squad this coming season. I realize that having a 2-time World Series Champion as a freshman coach may make him a little "over-qualified" for the job <grin>, but he is getting to coach his son. So, I believe he's quite enjoying the pay-off.
If you did not know Dane's past before you met him; you'd be hard-pressed to know it afterward. "Down-to-Earth", and "humble" are easily the adjectives I would use to describe him. In fact, many of the HS and college coaches I have met are the same: truly humble, regardless of how long, or how high, their baseball careers. (As an aside, 27 thinks Dane's son is a terrific baseball player, and a great person. The apple doesn't seem to fall far from the tree.)
I believe I can say the same about PGStaff. No, I've never met him. Yet, whenever I see his name starting a thread, or responding in one, his posts are a "must-read". He has earned that respect, from me, because of, literally, thousands of responses that are articulate, well-thought-out, and always encouraging. I say encouraging because the responses are honest. You know where he stands. And, invariably, PGStaff responds with humility concerning himself, and respect towards others. Every person I've spoken to concerning Perfect Game says something similar: the evaluations count because they're honest. Perfect Game provides a quality product, because they back it with integrity. And, they've been doing this, and quite well, for some time. So, you might expect him to be full of himself and sometimes condescending towards others. He isn't, and he doesn't. That, to me, speaks volumes as well.
Dane Iorg is the same way. So, again, if Garth is like his brother, PGY may prove to be as good for youth baseball as PG is for HS players. I don't know for sure...only time will tell.
How do I know Dane has integrity? This past fall season was 27's first at the HS level. He played mainly the Freshman/Sophmore level. But, there were times when Dane would ask the incoming Freshman coach for players for his team (JV/Varsity mix). 27's coach picked him and a couple of other players to play up. Dane's first question to the coach and to 27, seperately, was: how many innings, how many pitches, and how many days rest. All one long question. If 27 had pitched earlier in the week during Fresh/Soph, Dane would not pitch him. Even if the biggest reason Dane was asking for players was because he needed pitching. If 27 had had plenty of rest, Dane would pitch him sparingly. Now, to me, that's a coach who is looking out for each player's well-being. A person more interested in teaching than winning. (It was, after all, Fall Ball.) And, a coach who is looking toward the future.
It's a microcosm, to be sure, and one fall season doesn't a HS career make; but that is the consensus I've received from everyone: opposing coaches, umpires, dads and players. There is a similar consensus regarding Perfect Game in general, and PGStaff, in particular here at HSBBW. At some point, a person's word (when backed over and over by others you trust, and your own observations) goes from good to solid. Therefore, I'll give PGY the benefit of the doubt.
Now, I've said all of the above to say the following: If I could have had 27 evaluated, and myself educated, when he was 11, 12 or 13, he would have fewer innings on that arm. By a lot! He was the workhorse on his competitive teams, throwing close to MLB amounts of innings per year. I'm guilty where that's concerned. I admit my guilt and apologize upfront. By the time I became better educated, he was moving from comp to HS. His last comp year he threw fewer innings, and had much lower pitch-counts. However, I had moved him to a different team where there were more, and better, pitchers. He also played on a "hand-picked" team that went to Steamboat Springs for the World Series and they won. However, every player on that team could pitch, and so innings and pitch-counts were, again, low.
The level of his instruction has grown over the years. Yet it was more an "evolution" than a product of education. (His comp coach simply told me that 27 was beyond the coach's ability and we sought out professionals.) An earlier evaluation, by top-notch personnel, could have helped in that regard as well.
Does it mean that I think 27 would be on someone's radar if PGY had existed 3 years ago? No. However, the biggest "learner" on his journey thus far has been me. This may well be true of so many parents involved in their "first" trip down this road. I, for one, wish that I had taken the time to learn more, earlier. (I am glad for HSBBW; because learning here has made up for some of the lost time.)
If PGY can become an avenue whereby parents are the biggest winners, I'm all for it. More, better, and earlier education of the parents is, to me, the most important aspect. And, it's quite possible, that having a former MLB player and coach tell the parents the truth about their players, earlier, may keep both parents and players from making potentially harmful playing decisions.
That would be my main suggestion: Make it as much about educating the parents as instructing the players. Having PG refer it,and an Iorg working within it, are definitely pluses. Just my .02. Sorry for the rambling...but I did warn you...
That said, I do have an opinion. (As a HSBBW newbie, I'll strive to stick to the facts...as I know them.
) However, I may ramble.First, I have never attended a PG event as a spectator; nor has 27 been invited to one. So, my information is second-hand. However, many of our area's HS coaches are former college, or pro players. Those that I have met have always been honest with me.(As far as I know, anyway.) I have yet to talk with one who doesn't have the highest respect for PG, their events, or their staff.
Second, I know very little about PGY, Dulin, or Garth Iorg. I have, however, met Garth's brother, Dane. And, I have watched how Dane works as a coach. If Garth is anything like his brother, PGY will have a solid foundation from which to grow.
Dane was the Freshman coach this past season at 27's HS, and will coach the JV squad this coming season. I realize that having a 2-time World Series Champion as a freshman coach may make him a little "over-qualified" for the job <grin>, but he is getting to coach his son. So, I believe he's quite enjoying the pay-off.
If you did not know Dane's past before you met him; you'd be hard-pressed to know it afterward. "Down-to-Earth", and "humble" are easily the adjectives I would use to describe him. In fact, many of the HS and college coaches I have met are the same: truly humble, regardless of how long, or how high, their baseball careers. (As an aside, 27 thinks Dane's son is a terrific baseball player, and a great person. The apple doesn't seem to fall far from the tree.)
I believe I can say the same about PGStaff. No, I've never met him. Yet, whenever I see his name starting a thread, or responding in one, his posts are a "must-read". He has earned that respect, from me, because of, literally, thousands of responses that are articulate, well-thought-out, and always encouraging. I say encouraging because the responses are honest. You know where he stands. And, invariably, PGStaff responds with humility concerning himself, and respect towards others. Every person I've spoken to concerning Perfect Game says something similar: the evaluations count because they're honest. Perfect Game provides a quality product, because they back it with integrity. And, they've been doing this, and quite well, for some time. So, you might expect him to be full of himself and sometimes condescending towards others. He isn't, and he doesn't. That, to me, speaks volumes as well.
Dane Iorg is the same way. So, again, if Garth is like his brother, PGY may prove to be as good for youth baseball as PG is for HS players. I don't know for sure...only time will tell.
How do I know Dane has integrity? This past fall season was 27's first at the HS level. He played mainly the Freshman/Sophmore level. But, there were times when Dane would ask the incoming Freshman coach for players for his team (JV/Varsity mix). 27's coach picked him and a couple of other players to play up. Dane's first question to the coach and to 27, seperately, was: how many innings, how many pitches, and how many days rest. All one long question. If 27 had pitched earlier in the week during Fresh/Soph, Dane would not pitch him. Even if the biggest reason Dane was asking for players was because he needed pitching. If 27 had had plenty of rest, Dane would pitch him sparingly. Now, to me, that's a coach who is looking out for each player's well-being. A person more interested in teaching than winning. (It was, after all, Fall Ball.) And, a coach who is looking toward the future.
It's a microcosm, to be sure, and one fall season doesn't a HS career make; but that is the consensus I've received from everyone: opposing coaches, umpires, dads and players. There is a similar consensus regarding Perfect Game in general, and PGStaff, in particular here at HSBBW. At some point, a person's word (when backed over and over by others you trust, and your own observations) goes from good to solid. Therefore, I'll give PGY the benefit of the doubt.
Now, I've said all of the above to say the following: If I could have had 27 evaluated, and myself educated, when he was 11, 12 or 13, he would have fewer innings on that arm. By a lot! He was the workhorse on his competitive teams, throwing close to MLB amounts of innings per year. I'm guilty where that's concerned. I admit my guilt and apologize upfront. By the time I became better educated, he was moving from comp to HS. His last comp year he threw fewer innings, and had much lower pitch-counts. However, I had moved him to a different team where there were more, and better, pitchers. He also played on a "hand-picked" team that went to Steamboat Springs for the World Series and they won. However, every player on that team could pitch, and so innings and pitch-counts were, again, low.
The level of his instruction has grown over the years. Yet it was more an "evolution" than a product of education. (His comp coach simply told me that 27 was beyond the coach's ability and we sought out professionals.) An earlier evaluation, by top-notch personnel, could have helped in that regard as well.
Does it mean that I think 27 would be on someone's radar if PGY had existed 3 years ago? No. However, the biggest "learner" on his journey thus far has been me. This may well be true of so many parents involved in their "first" trip down this road. I, for one, wish that I had taken the time to learn more, earlier. (I am glad for HSBBW; because learning here has made up for some of the lost time.)
If PGY can become an avenue whereby parents are the biggest winners, I'm all for it. More, better, and earlier education of the parents is, to me, the most important aspect. And, it's quite possible, that having a former MLB player and coach tell the parents the truth about their players, earlier, may keep both parents and players from making potentially harmful playing decisions.
That would be my main suggestion: Make it as much about educating the parents as instructing the players. Having PG refer it,and an Iorg working within it, are definitely pluses. Just my .02. Sorry for the rambling...but I did warn you...
27”sDad,
Those are some of the nicest things anyone has ever said about us. Whether deserved or not… Thank you very much. Also thanks for reading what has been written in this thread. There are many ways to help young players and parents, but I think some might be caught up in the ranking thing and pass right on by the rest. If it were “only” about rankings, I don’t think it would serve any real valuable purpose, either.
I don’t know Dane, but I am good friends with Garth. I like him a lot for the same reasons you speak so highly about his brother. I truly hope he and the others can help a lot of young kids and help educate some parents. The people involved certainly have the credentials and ability to do just that. That’s the only way PGYouth will survive.
Thanks again
Those are some of the nicest things anyone has ever said about us. Whether deserved or not… Thank you very much. Also thanks for reading what has been written in this thread. There are many ways to help young players and parents, but I think some might be caught up in the ranking thing and pass right on by the rest. If it were “only” about rankings, I don’t think it would serve any real valuable purpose, either.
I don’t know Dane, but I am good friends with Garth. I like him a lot for the same reasons you speak so highly about his brother. I truly hope he and the others can help a lot of young kids and help educate some parents. The people involved certainly have the credentials and ability to do just that. That’s the only way PGYouth will survive.
Thanks again
PGStaff,
You are very welcome. And, it is well deserved.
Personally, I have used the "Prospects" videos to educate 27 as to the quality of talent that exists across the country. (I believe it was the Baseball TV site linked to PG?) He comes away from watching the videos with a deeper appreciation of that talent, and a stronger work-ethic. So, Perfect Game has already helped my son.
Since you know Garth, and he's like his brother, I'll watch for good things to come from PGYouth.
Thank you, again, for all that you have done for countless players, parents, and for the wonderful game of baseball; both here and at Perfect Game.
You are very welcome. And, it is well deserved.
Personally, I have used the "Prospects" videos to educate 27 as to the quality of talent that exists across the country. (I believe it was the Baseball TV site linked to PG?) He comes away from watching the videos with a deeper appreciation of that talent, and a stronger work-ethic. So, Perfect Game has already helped my son
.Since you know Garth, and he's like his brother, I'll watch for good things to come from PGYouth.
Thank you, again, for all that you have done for countless players, parents, and for the wonderful game of baseball; both here and at Perfect Game.
This is all getting out of control. Does anyone think that baseball as we know it would shrink and die if PG and all organizations like them went away?
Guess what? It would not even miss a beat. Coaches would have to work a little harder, but so what?
This is all a money grab, but in our world, what isn't? The business of America is business.
Baseball existed fine without all these groups that purport to identify and rank and place kids.
Because of our desire to help our kids, these groups thrive. It starts out innocently enough. Organizers can make a few bucks and families are gracious and kids advance and life is good.
But it gets crazy when these organizations promote that without them, nothing good could happen to kids. It grows beyond control. It becomes an industry...just like the performance drink industry...we all did just fine with water and gatorade was a nice diversion. But now you would think that exercise could not have existed before these drinks. How in the world did we ever get by without 25 different performance drinks?
This thread is exactly the same thing. Your kids want gatorade because they know nothing else. You parents may not know of any other way to do it, but because this organization is successful at selling their product, we think we need it.
I forgot if I was talking about some of these organizations that sell baseball to us all or if I was talking about gatorade. Same thing.
Strong arm tactics. Marketing. Advertising. Misuse of statistics and data. Successful businesses making money off a green and uninformed public.
Baseball needs a reality check and a cleansing. Things like this need to be monitored and kept in check.
Baseball for youth right now is like the wild west. No laws or rules or checks and balances. Just lots of people telling you that unless you do "A"...you have no chance to ever get "B" And that scares parents into a frenzy.
Our constitution was built on the concept that checks and balances would keep our country afloat, and we are living in a time where the constitution is doing just that.
Baseball for youth is a lawless jungle.
Just my opinion. I could be way off base. But we need to dialog on this stuff. We need conflicting opinions. We need the "other side of the story."
It is all changing very fast...needs to be regulated.
Guess what? It would not even miss a beat. Coaches would have to work a little harder, but so what?
This is all a money grab, but in our world, what isn't? The business of America is business.
Baseball existed fine without all these groups that purport to identify and rank and place kids.
Because of our desire to help our kids, these groups thrive. It starts out innocently enough. Organizers can make a few bucks and families are gracious and kids advance and life is good.
But it gets crazy when these organizations promote that without them, nothing good could happen to kids. It grows beyond control. It becomes an industry...just like the performance drink industry...we all did just fine with water and gatorade was a nice diversion. But now you would think that exercise could not have existed before these drinks. How in the world did we ever get by without 25 different performance drinks?
This thread is exactly the same thing. Your kids want gatorade because they know nothing else. You parents may not know of any other way to do it, but because this organization is successful at selling their product, we think we need it.
I forgot if I was talking about some of these organizations that sell baseball to us all or if I was talking about gatorade. Same thing.
Strong arm tactics. Marketing. Advertising. Misuse of statistics and data. Successful businesses making money off a green and uninformed public.
Baseball needs a reality check and a cleansing. Things like this need to be monitored and kept in check.
Baseball for youth right now is like the wild west. No laws or rules or checks and balances. Just lots of people telling you that unless you do "A"...you have no chance to ever get "B" And that scares parents into a frenzy.
Our constitution was built on the concept that checks and balances would keep our country afloat, and we are living in a time where the constitution is doing just that.
Baseball for youth is a lawless jungle.
Just my opinion. I could be way off base. But we need to dialog on this stuff. We need conflicting opinions. We need the "other side of the story."
It is all changing very fast...needs to be regulated.
tired of this,
Welcome, but somehow I doubt this was the first time you have posted. I can understand wanting to be anonymous though. You certainly are welcome to your opinion.
To be honest I'm getting kind of "tired of all this" myself!
Stick that business "money grab" **** right up your ***! How's that for dialog? That is exactly how much I care about BUSINESS! I care even less about GRABBING someones money with STRONG ARM TACTICS!!!
I'm not only "tired" of this, I'm sick of it! It really turns my gut! HOW DID WE EVER GET BY WITHOUT THESE COMPUTERS??? Sometimes, things just IMPROVE!!!
Welcome, but somehow I doubt this was the first time you have posted. I can understand wanting to be anonymous though. You certainly are welcome to your opinion.
To be honest I'm getting kind of "tired of all this" myself!
Stick that business "money grab" **** right up your ***! How's that for dialog? That is exactly how much I care about BUSINESS! I care even less about GRABBING someones money with STRONG ARM TACTICS!!!
I'm not only "tired" of this, I'm sick of it! It really turns my gut! HOW DID WE EVER GET BY WITHOUT THESE COMPUTERS??? Sometimes, things just IMPROVE!!!
tired of this,
It took more than 2 years after you registered at the site before you made your first post! But I see you worked up a head of steam. [Note to readers outside of Northern California: tired of this is a well respected member of the baseball community here. I assume that this is the same "tired of this", because the sentiment expressed seems reasonably characteristic.]
I understand much of what you've written. I will comment that we got along fine without cell phones and the Internet for a long time, so I suppose that we could revert. But I for one don't want to give up cell phones or this forum.
You lost me however, with the assertion that youth baseball needs regulation. Why? And what entity would have the wisdom to regulate it "correctly"? If we make the analogy to economic systems, capitalism may not an ideal system , but it seems to be the best available. Why not let the market for baseball services work?
It took more than 2 years after you registered at the site before you made your first post! But I see you worked up a head of steam. [Note to readers outside of Northern California: tired of this is a well respected member of the baseball community here. I assume that this is the same "tired of this", because the sentiment expressed seems reasonably characteristic.]
I understand much of what you've written. I will comment that we got along fine without cell phones and the Internet for a long time, so I suppose that we could revert. But I for one don't want to give up cell phones or this forum.
You lost me however, with the assertion that youth baseball needs regulation. Why? And what entity would have the wisdom to regulate it "correctly"? If we make the analogy to economic systems, capitalism may not an ideal system , but it seems to be the best available. Why not let the market for baseball services work?
3FingerdGlove,
I also have a couple ideas about who is posting under the name “tired of this”.
What gets my dander up is when someone is calling for dialog while he is ripping people apart. I’m all for dialog and willing to discuss and answer any question as honestly as possible. I don’t even care if it is bad business on my part because I never claimed to be a business person! And haven't been able to grab a whole lot of money either!
Having dialog is one thing… Making accusations like this, “Strong arm tactics. Marketing. Advertising. Misuse of statistics and data. Successful businesses making money off a green and uninformed public…. Is another thing. Actually I wouldn’t even care about those accusations except guess what the title of this thread is. Why couldn’t this have been posted in any of many other threads?
Of course, we all see the other messageboards out there and what’s being said at NorcalPrep and other sites. I choose to reply only here and allow the cheap shots out there. It really amazes me when these things come from people who attend our events and ask us for favors while they stab us in the back! Something WE would never do!
People have to understand... There is no one bigger than the game! We could all be gone and the game will still be here! That includes Mr. "tired of this". That doesn't mean things can't improve.
I also have a couple ideas about who is posting under the name “tired of this”.
What gets my dander up is when someone is calling for dialog while he is ripping people apart. I’m all for dialog and willing to discuss and answer any question as honestly as possible. I don’t even care if it is bad business on my part because I never claimed to be a business person! And haven't been able to grab a whole lot of money either!
Having dialog is one thing… Making accusations like this, “Strong arm tactics. Marketing. Advertising. Misuse of statistics and data. Successful businesses making money off a green and uninformed public…. Is another thing. Actually I wouldn’t even care about those accusations except guess what the title of this thread is. Why couldn’t this have been posted in any of many other threads?
Of course, we all see the other messageboards out there and what’s being said at NorcalPrep and other sites. I choose to reply only here and allow the cheap shots out there. It really amazes me when these things come from people who attend our events and ask us for favors while they stab us in the back! Something WE would never do!
People have to understand... There is no one bigger than the game! We could all be gone and the game will still be here! That includes Mr. "tired of this". That doesn't mean things can't improve.
Tired of this:
Your profile says that you are a baseball coach from northern California. That's my home town.
Do you mind telling us who you coach for?
I'm curious, because I wonder if you are willing to put a public name behind these public cheap shots & accusations towards " PG and all organizations like them "?
Having an opinion and wanting to talk about " the other side of the story " is all fine and dandy,... if done so respectfully, professionally, and....honestly.
When you intentionally stomp on someone's toes while wearing a mask, imho it doesnt help your cause/case much to come back later and say,
" I could be way off base " until the rest of us know your true agenda.
quote:I could be way off base.
Your profile says that you are a baseball coach from northern California. That's my home town.
Do you mind telling us who you coach for?
I'm curious, because I wonder if you are willing to put a public name behind these public cheap shots & accusations towards " PG and all organizations like them "?
Having an opinion and wanting to talk about " the other side of the story " is all fine and dandy,... if done so respectfully, professionally, and....honestly.
When you intentionally stomp on someone's toes while wearing a mask, imho it doesnt help your cause/case much to come back later and say,
" I could be way off base " until the rest of us know your true agenda.
First, I'll state I'm always suspicion when someone's first post goes on the attack. But I'm more on the anti PGY side than the pro side. However, as far as ...
"It is all changing very fast...needs to be regulated." ....
It's our responsibility as parents. I don't need the government telling me when and whether or not my son can attend a showcase. I can make that decision myself. I can advise someone who asks my opinion. But I don't need bureaucrats who may never have played a day of sports in his life making decisions about my son's future based on their gut feel. Given the current nature of government, showcases would be banned because someone's feelings might get hurt.
"It is all changing very fast...needs to be regulated." ....
It's our responsibility as parents. I don't need the government telling me when and whether or not my son can attend a showcase. I can make that decision myself. I can advise someone who asks my opinion. But I don't need bureaucrats who may never have played a day of sports in his life making decisions about my son's future based on their gut feel. Given the current nature of government, showcases would be banned because someone's feelings might get hurt.
When we get through the emotions, I think there is merit in the discussion started by tired of this.
In essence, I think he is asking whether youth baseball needs showcases and if they do, is there need for regulation?
While I have not seen it as much recently, I very much remember posts from a number of posters who paid for showcases in Texas and other states who not only did not get to showcase, it was cancelled and they never got the money refunded.
Since any one can start one, anyone can say what they want, and baseball consumers and their sons bear the brunt or buyer beware. Is regulation the right way?
On the large scale, we have seen the lack of regulation and impact these past few months on Wall Street and these past few days with Madoff.
Certainly, for youth baseball, we are not talking issues of that financial magnitude. But I think they are relevent.
Perhaps even more relevant is the thread on agents/advisors. In the course of those postings, the concept that these folks are totally unregulated was made, by PG I think, and the dangers it presents discussed. Why are those issues and questions relevant for agents and advisors but off limits for showcases and travel ball?
I also think tired brings more than showcasing into the discussion. I could be wrong, but I also think the issue of travel teams and travel baseball as part of that rapidly expanding paranoia of getting to DI at all costs and signing the NLI are incorporated into tired's post
Recently I was talking with a high school coach who had attended a showcase(not PG) with his son. He said there were upwards of 150 to 175players in attendance . There were about 30 or so coaches.
Since the high school coach knew some of the coaches, information filtered back that perhaps 25, maybe a few more, of the attendees could play college baseball, at any level. The vast majority who paid the entrance fee and travel costs likely had little to no chance.
Who knows whether that is true or not. It was my impression of his impression.
I have posted in the past on this site that, for me at least, one important issue with travel ball and showcasing isn't the publicity given to those who sign NLI's or play in college.
It is understanding the number of attendees desperately seeking the DI "dream" who have no shot and use their hard earned money to find out.
Just my view, but if the questions raised by tired are okay for agents and advisors who impact such a small portion of the baseball community, why are they not okay for showcases and travel ball, which is impacting an every increasing number of players and families, and soon to be impacting 11-14 year olds, it would appear?
In essence, I think he is asking whether youth baseball needs showcases and if they do, is there need for regulation?
While I have not seen it as much recently, I very much remember posts from a number of posters who paid for showcases in Texas and other states who not only did not get to showcase, it was cancelled and they never got the money refunded.
Since any one can start one, anyone can say what they want, and baseball consumers and their sons bear the brunt or buyer beware. Is regulation the right way?
On the large scale, we have seen the lack of regulation and impact these past few months on Wall Street and these past few days with Madoff.
Certainly, for youth baseball, we are not talking issues of that financial magnitude. But I think they are relevent.
Perhaps even more relevant is the thread on agents/advisors. In the course of those postings, the concept that these folks are totally unregulated was made, by PG I think, and the dangers it presents discussed. Why are those issues and questions relevant for agents and advisors but off limits for showcases and travel ball?
I also think tired brings more than showcasing into the discussion. I could be wrong, but I also think the issue of travel teams and travel baseball as part of that rapidly expanding paranoia of getting to DI at all costs and signing the NLI are incorporated into tired's post
Recently I was talking with a high school coach who had attended a showcase(not PG) with his son. He said there were upwards of 150 to 175players in attendance . There were about 30 or so coaches.
Since the high school coach knew some of the coaches, information filtered back that perhaps 25, maybe a few more, of the attendees could play college baseball, at any level. The vast majority who paid the entrance fee and travel costs likely had little to no chance.
Who knows whether that is true or not. It was my impression of his impression.
I have posted in the past on this site that, for me at least, one important issue with travel ball and showcasing isn't the publicity given to those who sign NLI's or play in college.
It is understanding the number of attendees desperately seeking the DI "dream" who have no shot and use their hard earned money to find out.
Just my view, but if the questions raised by tired are okay for agents and advisors who impact such a small portion of the baseball community, why are they not okay for showcases and travel ball, which is impacting an every increasing number of players and families, and soon to be impacting 11-14 year olds, it would appear?
I started to delete the post by "tired of this" but decided that it would be more effective to respond to the post while it remained "up on the boards". Some of the information about PG is correct but some is not. Using words like "strong arm tactics" shows lack of knowledge and reveals an obvious frustration in "tot"'s post. To say that PG is a business is true! ---- SO? PG has been very effective in providing a service to the baseball community. Those that chose to use that service are charged a fee. The fee is only high if one feels the service was not worth the charges --- by the same token the fee is fair or low if the participant feels the service equaled or exceeded the expected results. No problem so far? Having been a businessman most of my life (in providing a service) I know the CONSUMER determines whether or not the "product" is worthy of the cost, not the owner, not the competitor, not the media. The consumer has said LOUD and CLEAR that Perfect Games exceeds expectations. Saying PG is high priced, fair priced, or low priced can only be answered by each individual that paid for and used the services and not some one time poster expressing their obvious biased resentment of Perfect Game.
I did not use Perfect Game, nor did I pay Perfect Game any money during my son's recruitment simply because my son didn't need their services. In my son's case I felt as if it would have been a waste of money. Many people "waste" money on lots of things --- me included. As long as it's their money why should I care? Let's get real. It's hard to modify truth and reality with bias and resentment but "tired of this" tried.
Fungo
I did not use Perfect Game, nor did I pay Perfect Game any money during my son's recruitment simply because my son didn't need their services. In my son's case I felt as if it would have been a waste of money. Many people "waste" money on lots of things --- me included. As long as it's their money why should I care? Let's get real. It's hard to modify truth and reality with bias and resentment but "tired of this" tried.
Fungo
Hey guys...sorry to make so many people upset. I will try to regroup tonight and post a response tomorrow. I simply can not do that right now.
My intent is to stimulate discussion and thought. No agenda or axe to grind or people/organizations to belittle.
No conspiracy theories either. I have posted a long time on this board, and because of my own limited intellect have a few different names and passwords that I can sometimes remember and sometimes not. I do that with many of the password/username facets of my life.
Hold off organizing the posse and torching my house tonight.
When I get a few minutes, most likely tomorrow I will try to clarify my opinions.
I would be more than happy to talk to any and everyone offline about this.
My intent is to stimulate discussion and thought. No agenda or axe to grind or people/organizations to belittle.
No conspiracy theories either. I have posted a long time on this board, and because of my own limited intellect have a few different names and passwords that I can sometimes remember and sometimes not. I do that with many of the password/username facets of my life.
Hold off organizing the posse and torching my house tonight.
When I get a few minutes, most likely tomorrow I will try to clarify my opinions.
I would be more than happy to talk to any and everyone offline about this.
tired of this,
I promise not to torch your house. I would welcome a dialogue about showcasing and the impact it has had on youth baseball. I think you and I share many of the same views but we do disagree on some points too. Let's talk tomorrow.
PS: I thought it was strange that you had been a member since 2006 but you show up as a "new member" with this being your first post.
I promise not to torch your house.
I would welcome a dialogue about showcasing and the impact it has had on youth baseball. I think you and I share many of the same views but we do disagree on some points too. Let's talk tomorrow.PS: I thought it was strange that you had been a member since 2006 but you show up as a "new member" with this being your first post.
quote:Originally posted by tired of this:
Baseball for youth right now is like the wild west. No laws or rules or checks and balances. Just lots of people telling you that unless you do "A"...you have no chance to ever get "B" And that scares parents into a frenzy.
I am not sure about the laws and rules part but I agree with this. By youth I mean for me under HS age.
I am not sure why tired of this has to be identified, I am not sure that it was a sirect slam on anyone in general, just his opinion as he sees youth sports in general.
I am curious about the regulation part, how could this be regulated?
quote:I am not sure that it was a sirect slam on anyone in general
TPM, It may have meant to be generalized but I saw it as a direct slam at PG when "tired of this said":
This is all getting out of control. Does anyone think that baseball as we know it would shrink and die if PG and all organizations like them went away? The post went on to tell of very unethical practices with "PG and all organizations like them". While I agree with some of that statement in principal, I disagree with how it was said. I think cooler heads will prevail tomorrow and we can have an objective discussion about the positive and negative impact showcasing/travel/camps/$$$$ is having on the advancement from youth baseball to college/pro baseball.
Fungo,
I get your point, I understand. I agree it was how it was stated.
As far as the tactics, there was no direct mention of any organization, just assumptions.
I can see how this could create bad feelings.
I get your point, I understand. I agree it was how it was stated.
As far as the tactics, there was no direct mention of any organization, just assumptions.
I can see how this could create bad feelings.
Why is it nobody brings Williamsport Little League into these dscussions? Are they exempt ???
Our town dropped affiliation because of many of their rules and procedures---
Our town dropped affiliation because of many of their rules and procedures---
I took it as a direct slam against PG. "...if PG and all organizations like them went away?"
Perhaps if "tot" had used the general terms "showcases" and "travel ball", I wouldn't have taken it that way. But PG was lumped in with "all organizations", and I believe that was wrong.
If someone can point me to the archives, and show me posts by PGStaff that are blatant "strong-arm" advertisements for PG showcases. Or, posts where PGStaff has stated that his showcases are the only way players can get noticed...that "you can't get from A to B without us"...then Tired of this can include PG with "all organizations". If not (and that's where I'll put my money) then please separate PG from the other organizations. At least for this discussion.
If I'm not mistaken, PGStaff has led the way here with posts concerning the dishonest types of showcase and tournament personnel, and their tactics. He has clearly stated that there are many players who have gone on to college and pro careers without attending even 1 PG showcase. He has reinforced the "recruiting timeline" that is to be found right here on HSBBW. Parents have followed up with posts concerning how PGStaff, Perfect Game, and their showcases have helped their sons find the right "fit". Be that D1, D2, D3, JUCO, or NAIA. And, other parents have stated that their sons never attended a PG event, yet they are playing at the college level, or higher.
Again, my son has never attended a PG event. I have no dog in this hunt. Will he ever attend one? I don't know. He may never hit their radar (be that because of talent or finances, or just simply being "off the grid"), and it's not vital that he does. Am I worried that it may diminish his chances? Nope. He already has interest from a D1 baseball program. (In my opinion, that program may be the best fit for him.) However, he has yet to set foot on a HS field during the regular season...as a Freshman. There is no way to know how good he is, or may be, until that happens. Anything above HS is at least 2 years away. I'll worry about the rest when the right time hits in the "recruiting timeline", and we'll take it from there.(And, HS may be as far as he goes.)
Regardless, I will state again that the baseball people I know and respect, carry great respect for Perfect Game. And I know that PGStaff has earned my respect.I do not consider him, or Perfect Game, to be "money grubbing", nor have I ever seen any "strong-arm tactics". (Again, if there are those HSBBWebsters who have a different experience, with PG, please let me know.)
If Tired of this is looking for a general discussion regarding showcases and travel teams...then great! I'm all for it. However, let's be as specific as possible when touting negatives and positives. If there are bad showcases out there, then list them and tell us why. If there are travel teams or leagues with bad reps...let us know.
However, if this is a general "rant" against showcases and travel teams as an item of principle...then please leave specific organizations out of the generalizations. Especially an organization whose HSBBW member is someone who has proven his value to this site, and his organization to HS baseball players, over and over again.
OK...off the soapbox...
Perhaps if "tot" had used the general terms "showcases" and "travel ball", I wouldn't have taken it that way. But PG was lumped in with "all organizations", and I believe that was wrong.
If someone can point me to the archives, and show me posts by PGStaff that are blatant "strong-arm" advertisements for PG showcases. Or, posts where PGStaff has stated that his showcases are the only way players can get noticed...that "you can't get from A to B without us"...then Tired of this can include PG with "all organizations". If not (and that's where I'll put my money) then please separate PG from the other organizations. At least for this discussion.
If I'm not mistaken, PGStaff has led the way here with posts concerning the dishonest types of showcase and tournament personnel, and their tactics. He has clearly stated that there are many players who have gone on to college and pro careers without attending even 1 PG showcase. He has reinforced the "recruiting timeline" that is to be found right here on HSBBW. Parents have followed up with posts concerning how PGStaff, Perfect Game, and their showcases have helped their sons find the right "fit". Be that D1, D2, D3, JUCO, or NAIA. And, other parents have stated that their sons never attended a PG event, yet they are playing at the college level, or higher.
Again, my son has never attended a PG event. I have no dog in this hunt. Will he ever attend one? I don't know. He may never hit their radar (be that because of talent or finances, or just simply being "off the grid"), and it's not vital that he does. Am I worried that it may diminish his chances? Nope. He already has interest from a D1 baseball program. (In my opinion, that program may be the best fit for him.) However, he has yet to set foot on a HS field during the regular season...as a Freshman. There is no way to know how good he is, or may be, until that happens. Anything above HS is at least 2 years away. I'll worry about the rest when the right time hits in the "recruiting timeline", and we'll take it from there.(And, HS may be as far as he goes.)
Regardless, I will state again that the baseball people I know and respect, carry great respect for Perfect Game. And I know that PGStaff has earned my respect.I do not consider him, or Perfect Game, to be "money grubbing", nor have I ever seen any "strong-arm tactics". (Again, if there are those HSBBWebsters who have a different experience, with PG, please let me know.)
If Tired of this is looking for a general discussion regarding showcases and travel teams...then great! I'm all for it. However, let's be as specific as possible when touting negatives and positives. If there are bad showcases out there, then list them and tell us why. If there are travel teams or leagues with bad reps...let us know.
However, if this is a general "rant" against showcases and travel teams as an item of principle...then please leave specific organizations out of the generalizations. Especially an organization whose HSBBW member is someone who has proven his value to this site, and his organization to HS baseball players, over and over again.
OK...off the soapbox...
I won't name any names or affiliations, but,
Tired of This, who is getting a little bit of heat for his commentary, is one of the leading head HS baseball coaches in his area and works very hard for a lot of kids not affiliated with his school, to get them seen at no cost.
No, my son did not go to his school.
Sorry for the run-on sentence.
Tired of This, who is getting a little bit of heat for his commentary, is one of the leading head HS baseball coaches in his area and works very hard for a lot of kids not affiliated with his school, to get them seen at no cost.
No, my son did not go to his school.
Sorry for the run-on sentence.
This is a BIG question. So many things are tied up in how you perceive showcasing in general, the youth baseball "wild west", and all that comes with it.
Cultural Impact
Baseball teams, high schools, travel clubs & businesses do not exist in a vacuum. We are living in an age that is...um...different than when I grew up and may look unrecognizable to my parents' generation. Culturally, we are facing the fear that things aren't getting better in every sector. What does that mean to a parent who wants a better world for their child? What does that mean to a coach who wants to help his players grow up to be better people? It is not clear to me that anyone knows these answers.
On PG Youth
PGStaff, it is possible that your business has been unfairly singled out in this thread. I actually think it is a measure of the respect that PG has in the baseball community that so many people were so taken aback by PGYouth. Clearly, such programs already exist in some form run by other businesses (most without the pedigree or general history of PG). But I think many people (and I include myself among them) who may otherwise be supporters of your business see it as a foray into a branch of the market that we think is unhealthy for the sport or our society. It is entirely possible that PGYouth will be educational as you say and end up being a positive, but the initial presentation came off a little...I don't know...icky.
My useless thoughts
I tend to get bored with some of the questions brought up. Are showcases a good thing? Doesn't matter- they are NOT going away. There will be good people and bad people who run showcases. Parents will buy what they think they need to buy to get their kids an advantage in a world that seems to get tougher by the day. Some of the dollars will be well-spent, some will be wasted.
But here's the thing. Participation in our sport in America is declining. For those of us who love the game, this is a pretty big red flag. At the same time, the cost of playing our sport what the wise say is "the right way" is increasing: travel teams cost $$$, tournaments cost $$$, pitching and hitting lessons cost $$$, showcases cost $$$, college camps cost $$$; bats are $350; catcher's mitts are $200.Not casting stones at PG here. I run travel ball tournaments. I have run a travel ball program. Years ago I even did pitching lessons. I am a part of the "culture".
How much does it cost for a Dominican kid to play baseball? Who is being better served in the sport right now?
It may be that none of us can do anything about it- the cultural streams are too strong. But I am open to ideas...
Cultural Impact
Baseball teams, high schools, travel clubs & businesses do not exist in a vacuum. We are living in an age that is...um...different than when I grew up and may look unrecognizable to my parents' generation. Culturally, we are facing the fear that things aren't getting better in every sector. What does that mean to a parent who wants a better world for their child? What does that mean to a coach who wants to help his players grow up to be better people? It is not clear to me that anyone knows these answers.
On PG Youth
PGStaff, it is possible that your business has been unfairly singled out in this thread. I actually think it is a measure of the respect that PG has in the baseball community that so many people were so taken aback by PGYouth. Clearly, such programs already exist in some form run by other businesses (most without the pedigree or general history of PG). But I think many people (and I include myself among them) who may otherwise be supporters of your business see it as a foray into a branch of the market that we think is unhealthy for the sport or our society. It is entirely possible that PGYouth will be educational as you say and end up being a positive, but the initial presentation came off a little...I don't know...icky.
My useless thoughts
I tend to get bored with some of the questions brought up. Are showcases a good thing? Doesn't matter- they are NOT going away. There will be good people and bad people who run showcases. Parents will buy what they think they need to buy to get their kids an advantage in a world that seems to get tougher by the day. Some of the dollars will be well-spent, some will be wasted.
But here's the thing. Participation in our sport in America is declining. For those of us who love the game, this is a pretty big red flag. At the same time, the cost of playing our sport what the wise say is "the right way" is increasing: travel teams cost $$$, tournaments cost $$$, pitching and hitting lessons cost $$$, showcases cost $$$, college camps cost $$$; bats are $350; catcher's mitts are $200.Not casting stones at PG here. I run travel ball tournaments. I have run a travel ball program. Years ago I even did pitching lessons. I am a part of the "culture".
How much does it cost for a Dominican kid to play baseball? Who is being better served in the sport right now?
It may be that none of us can do anything about it- the cultural streams are too strong. But I am open to ideas...
Perhaps participation in baseball has declined because of the rising costs?
TPM,
I believe you and XtremeBB are both circling some of the issues.
Costs for "being serious" about any sport are continually climbing. (Have you seen gymnastics costs?!) The seasons are never "enough". Summer leagues, coach referred "travel" or tournament teams, and the tournaments themselves add up to high costs and little extra time. Players are often being asked to "specialize" at earlier (and to me unrealistic) ages. But that has become as XtremeBB put it: "the wise way". And many parents, and players, have bought into it.
That hit home for me last week. 27's basketball coach wants him to continue to try-out for both sports. During a meeting with the coach, he said that the only difficulty would be the need for open communication between the baseball and basketball coaches because of the overlap. I admit my naivete. I asked him, "What overlap?" He said not during the seasons, but the summer leagues and tournaments! The coaches would have to get together and decide which games and tournaments they would each have him!
My head was rolling from the $$$ that were running through my mind. (None of these leagues or tournaments are free.) Add to that the fact that 27 would probably not have a social life (or any spare time). What with both team's practices and workouts, etc. And this is the "Freshman" level? What will they expect by the time Varsity rolls around?
So from both the cost and the cultural aspects, I'm sitting here thinking, "Is this really what it takes?" And, "Is it worth it?"
Granted, I'm from another age, and I don't believe we can truly put that genie back in the bottle, but I played baseball, ran track, tried-out for football, and still had a somewhat normal life. (And that was just my Sophomore year.)
Man! Sometimes I long for a dirt field and some pick-up games...
I believe you and XtremeBB are both circling some of the issues.
Costs for "being serious" about any sport are continually climbing. (Have you seen gymnastics costs?!) The seasons are never "enough". Summer leagues, coach referred "travel" or tournament teams, and the tournaments themselves add up to high costs and little extra time. Players are often being asked to "specialize" at earlier (and to me unrealistic) ages. But that has become as XtremeBB put it: "the wise way". And many parents, and players, have bought into it.
That hit home for me last week. 27's basketball coach wants him to continue to try-out for both sports. During a meeting with the coach, he said that the only difficulty would be the need for open communication between the baseball and basketball coaches because of the overlap. I admit my naivete. I asked him, "What overlap?" He said not during the seasons, but the summer leagues and tournaments! The coaches would have to get together and decide which games and tournaments they would each have him!
My head was rolling from the $$$ that were running through my mind. (None of these leagues or tournaments are free.) Add to that the fact that 27 would probably not have a social life (or any spare time). What with both team's practices and workouts, etc. And this is the "Freshman" level? What will they expect by the time Varsity rolls around?
So from both the cost and the cultural aspects, I'm sitting here thinking, "Is this really what it takes?" And, "Is it worth it?"
Granted, I'm from another age, and I don't believe we can truly put that genie back in the bottle, but I played baseball, ran track, tried-out for football, and still had a somewhat normal life. (And that was just my Sophomore year.)
Man! Sometimes I long for a dirt field and some pick-up games...
tired,
I will gladly discuss most anything and answer questions as honestly as possible. Hopefully you can see by my initial response... I am NOT a businessman. Doubt any good business person would say my response was something that would impress people. I even know that and just don't care!
You did attach our name on a thread that had our name attached to it and used some language I thought was on fire! Money grabbing, strong arm tactics, misuse of stats and data, taking advantage of green unexperienced parents. There was no other entity named!
I am not allergic to money, but it has never motivated me enough to risk my reputation. I have given my life to this game just as much, if not more, than you. My biggest reward is seeing young kids be successful. You would be surprised if you think I am wealthy. My wealth is all wrapped up in great memories. I have never strong armed anyone. In fact, I've told many they should not attend a certain PG event and pay us.
I don't mind talking about this. I don't expect everyone to fall in line and agree with me. I respect the opinions of others if they are given in a respectful manner. And unfortunately I've discovered that the bigger we get, the bigger the bullseye on our back gets. Even among people who we have never met. No, especially the people we have never met.
I would never ever do anything to risk my reputation. That is all I have!
You have been listening to the wrong people.
The most important part of our mission statement is... to promote baseball at every level to the best of our ability. I believe we are doing that. Do we really know the numbers are down from 15 years ago? I do know the numbers are up where we live because baseball has become more important around here. Maybe more people should actually do something rather than just talk about it.
Last year we ran the two largest full field baseball tournaments in history. WWBA 17U was 192 teams, WWBA 18U was 186 teams. We actually turned away many other teams. Pardon me for having a problem seeing this loss of popularity. BTW, there were over a thousand scouts and college coaches attending between those two tournaments.
I know we all have opinions and not once have I ever asked for anything to be deleted or someone kicked off. All opinions are important so long as they are somewhat polite. I sure don't know it all and have tried to make that clear at times. There's nothing special about me. I'm getting old and can't always remember things like my phone number, address, or even my age. But I do have a little pride left!
Listen, I'm still a bit concerned about this whole youth thing. If done correctly I think it could be a very good thing. If not, I'll be the first to say we made a mistake by allowing our name to be attached. I've already decided that ranking 11 year olds is probably not a good thing. Some of what I've read here has helped convince me of that. Also the fact that we know how difficult it is to rank any age players.
That's about it! I hope you do stick around and add your experience and knowledge.
I will gladly discuss most anything and answer questions as honestly as possible. Hopefully you can see by my initial response... I am NOT a businessman. Doubt any good business person would say my response was something that would impress people. I even know that and just don't care!
You did attach our name on a thread that had our name attached to it and used some language I thought was on fire! Money grabbing, strong arm tactics, misuse of stats and data, taking advantage of green unexperienced parents. There was no other entity named!
I am not allergic to money, but it has never motivated me enough to risk my reputation. I have given my life to this game just as much, if not more, than you. My biggest reward is seeing young kids be successful. You would be surprised if you think I am wealthy. My wealth is all wrapped up in great memories. I have never strong armed anyone. In fact, I've told many they should not attend a certain PG event and pay us.
I don't mind talking about this. I don't expect everyone to fall in line and agree with me. I respect the opinions of others if they are given in a respectful manner. And unfortunately I've discovered that the bigger we get, the bigger the bullseye on our back gets. Even among people who we have never met. No, especially the people we have never met.
I would never ever do anything to risk my reputation. That is all I have!
You have been listening to the wrong people.
The most important part of our mission statement is... to promote baseball at every level to the best of our ability. I believe we are doing that. Do we really know the numbers are down from 15 years ago? I do know the numbers are up where we live because baseball has become more important around here. Maybe more people should actually do something rather than just talk about it.
Last year we ran the two largest full field baseball tournaments in history. WWBA 17U was 192 teams, WWBA 18U was 186 teams. We actually turned away many other teams. Pardon me for having a problem seeing this loss of popularity. BTW, there were over a thousand scouts and college coaches attending between those two tournaments.
I know we all have opinions and not once have I ever asked for anything to be deleted or someone kicked off. All opinions are important so long as they are somewhat polite. I sure don't know it all and have tried to make that clear at times. There's nothing special about me. I'm getting old and can't always remember things like my phone number, address, or even my age. But I do have a little pride left!
Listen, I'm still a bit concerned about this whole youth thing. If done correctly I think it could be a very good thing. If not, I'll be the first to say we made a mistake by allowing our name to be attached. I've already decided that ranking 11 year olds is probably not a good thing. Some of what I've read here has helped convince me of that. Also the fact that we know how difficult it is to rank any age players.
That's about it! I hope you do stick around and add your experience and knowledge.
I wasn't skirting I just asked a question. 
First a bit of a disclaimer. I have posted on this site on and off since 2003. I have used two names. 60'6" and tired of this. There is no sinister plot or analysis as to why this is. I am a novice regarding the sign up process and passwords and all that. I have the same two names on another board that simply exists because I originally used two computers and that is how it worked. Suffice to say, I used to check this board a lot. I was fascinated by it. As time has gone on, I simply do not have the time. So, I am as rusty as hell, and actually logged on yesterday on a whim and tried what I thought MIGHT be my password and user name...and here we are. So please dismiss with the analysis of where I have come from and what sinister agenda I must have.
I have loosely followed this thread since it was brought to my attention. I have not read everything, but it is easy to see it has been controversial.
I have many opinions about the state of baseball and education and these topics because I have been a coach and teacher for 28 years and they are my passions. I have found that keeping them to myself is sometimes the route I should go and using my experiences to educate is another route I can take. Probably should have just kept my mouth shut yesterday.
So what I am writing this morning is simply my opinion on some of these topics. I have no agenda other than to educate, and in my opinion there is a HUGE need for that for everyone that is diving into this pool with your kids. If this starts a discussion, great, if not, great too. I will say in advance that I am not going to be able to participate as much as I want. I tend to put other things aside when I get involved in these discussions, and after this post, I simply do not have the time to compose replies throughout the day. I would be happy to be contacted via this site as I believe those capabilities exist.
I understand the posters that bring a business background to this discussion. Yes, this is America and the consumer decides the success of the business and all that. I just think that when baseball crossed over into being a sport that can be referred to as a business at the youth level that our troubles began. Again, just my opinion. PG, Baseball Factory, other large and successful organizations, gigantic travel organizations, private lessons, recruiting companies, even this website. They are all business ventures that have certainly moved our game forward, but have also brought with them problems. The minute that "patient 0" decided that there was money that could be made off the marketing, teaching, or promoting of this game is the day everything changed in my opinion.
It might be as simple as the evolution of any industry,the speed bumps that we are experiencing. I don't really know. As has been stated, people can do whatever they want with there money. And they do.
I just believe that many of these organizations that sell the game are not always honest and upstanding with their customers. I am not targeting PG, so put your poison darts down. It starts at the lower levels and families do what they think they need to do to help their kid. There is a, "You need to do this if you want to make it." mentality that is sold every day to unsuspecting families. My mailbox is filled with them every day. So is my email box. Baseball has become a cottage business and many non-coaches have been able to create a niche by which they can be part of the game. I get that. It is not going away, but the byproduct of this is some nuclear waste that I believe is hurting the game.
There ARE people out there that are afraid to tangle with PG (for example) because they fear retribution against their kids somewhere down the line. There are coaches that do not agree with everything that happens with the larger organizations, but keep their mouths shut for fear of killing the goose that laid the golden egg. There are people in my program that will not state their issues to me for fear of retribution against the son. Bottom line, there is a lot of preaching to the choir that goes on on this board. The posters often support each other as a way of justifying their beliefs. Just hang out with people that think like you and that means you are thinking the right stuff. It is sort of a support group for people that are baseball lovers or think they are baseball lovers. I get that and am OK with that too. That is a good function of the board, but opposing opinions should not be attacked. They should be dissected and discussed. Maybe they have merit.
This board is way more than a support group to find the best hamburger when the masses truck to Jupiter for the next big "can't miss" tournament. It should be a vehicle for analyzing and possibly creating change where change is needed.
I think kids are playing too much baseball and not enough other sports and people are led to believe that that is essential to the success. I think travel ball and endless tournaments are OK if you are a shortstop, but hell on pitchers. And we need them to play games. I think that young people are being pressured, even if not intended, to specialize. I do not think this is creating better athletes. I am not even certain it is creating better baseball players.
I think college baseball has less to do with coaching than ever and more to do with recruiting and this has trickled down to community colleges and now high schools. And it is a weekly ritual at the youth level. The better kids services are in demand and the recruiting animal starts there. "Where is that kid going to go" has replaced discussions about the art of leading off a base. Coaches used to be from the pool of educators, trained educators, and now the way to stay in coaching is to hopefully latch on as a volunteer assistant somewhere and work your way up. No training in how to deal with people or how people actually learn, no mentoring, just a continuation of..."we need better kids if we want to compete." High school coaching has declined because a guy can make triple the money coaching a travel team on the weekend for a guy with money to pay for him. As a result, good, but untrained people never get any mentoring or training other than to play the right kids and collect a check. Baseball has opened the door for non-teachers to climb the ladder and this can cause problems with the intricacies of coaching and teaching and dealing with youth. Baseball is not that easy. That is probably one of the reasons we all love it so much.
I think showcases make their money off the participants that have the least chance of playing at the next level. They coddle to the top players that do not need any assistance to give the appearance that the top player got where he is by the help of whatever organization is sponsoring whatever event it is and often times these players are not charged. Most coaches in the stands are probably thinking of where their dinner is going to be rather than watching the participants.
It is all business 101 to many adults whose life is in the business world. Baseball is a smaller version of any other American business. It is my money and I can spend it the way I want. Buyer beware. Create the atmosphere where the consumer thinks he needs our product. All basic stuff. Basically sell a product. Decisions are clouded when money is involved. Are any of the big movers and shakers in the youth baseball world non-profit? Let's try that approach maybe.
I strongly believe there needs to be a vehicle to educate young families about certain realities of our sport. And that education should be given by someone that does not want any money from you. We do need a forum to analyze the explosion that has taken place in youth baseball. What has been good? What has been bad?
Showcases: Good? and bad? Rankings, written reports, AFLAC games, invitations to select events, jumping from team to team, abuse of young arms, what skills are necessary to advance, do college coaches really care about my ranking in the latest top player list, how about my teams ranking in the nationwide rankings for 12 year olds. What is good about all this stuff? And what is...not so good?
I think a lot of readers on this board are only getting one side of the story. Opposing view points are good. Sometimes we need a jolt to get off our butts and make a change.
I could go on and on and I am probably making no sense. But money and baseball are a scary couple. I don't care what you tell me. All you business experts and do-gooders. Money matters and people need some information to help make good decisions about their money. We need a consumer protection component to baseball. That is what I believe. Buyer beware is not the way to go about this.
We need some certification for coaches. We need some consumer ratings for larger organizations. We need some forums to discuss safely the downs and the ups to all this stuff. That is all I am trying to say.
The internet makes it easy to promote an agenda with no regulation. If I had a 10 year old that was shaving and dunking a basketball and I knew nothing about what I should do with this lad and I went online, I can't tell the good advice from the bad. It all looks good if your website looks good and you get the right testimonials and spew a few stats. Who is helping these people? And all areas of the country are not the same. Where I live might have different issues than other areas. Some have got to be the same.
I just think there needs to be lots of questioning and discussing the merits of all these things and part of the discussion should be...do we really need this? Is this an improvement on what we used to have (like the cell phone) or is this setting us back (increase in rotator cuff injuries among youth.) We can certainly not stop the march of progress. But we can question it.
Sorry for rambling. Sorry if I offended anyone beyond the normal ruffling of feathers. I just feel strongly about baseball and I am not certain that every new thing is good.
I have loosely followed this thread since it was brought to my attention. I have not read everything, but it is easy to see it has been controversial.
I have many opinions about the state of baseball and education and these topics because I have been a coach and teacher for 28 years and they are my passions. I have found that keeping them to myself is sometimes the route I should go and using my experiences to educate is another route I can take. Probably should have just kept my mouth shut yesterday.
So what I am writing this morning is simply my opinion on some of these topics. I have no agenda other than to educate, and in my opinion there is a HUGE need for that for everyone that is diving into this pool with your kids. If this starts a discussion, great, if not, great too. I will say in advance that I am not going to be able to participate as much as I want. I tend to put other things aside when I get involved in these discussions, and after this post, I simply do not have the time to compose replies throughout the day. I would be happy to be contacted via this site as I believe those capabilities exist.
I understand the posters that bring a business background to this discussion. Yes, this is America and the consumer decides the success of the business and all that. I just think that when baseball crossed over into being a sport that can be referred to as a business at the youth level that our troubles began. Again, just my opinion. PG, Baseball Factory, other large and successful organizations, gigantic travel organizations, private lessons, recruiting companies, even this website. They are all business ventures that have certainly moved our game forward, but have also brought with them problems. The minute that "patient 0" decided that there was money that could be made off the marketing, teaching, or promoting of this game is the day everything changed in my opinion.
It might be as simple as the evolution of any industry,the speed bumps that we are experiencing. I don't really know. As has been stated, people can do whatever they want with there money. And they do.
I just believe that many of these organizations that sell the game are not always honest and upstanding with their customers. I am not targeting PG, so put your poison darts down. It starts at the lower levels and families do what they think they need to do to help their kid. There is a, "You need to do this if you want to make it." mentality that is sold every day to unsuspecting families. My mailbox is filled with them every day. So is my email box. Baseball has become a cottage business and many non-coaches have been able to create a niche by which they can be part of the game. I get that. It is not going away, but the byproduct of this is some nuclear waste that I believe is hurting the game.
There ARE people out there that are afraid to tangle with PG (for example) because they fear retribution against their kids somewhere down the line. There are coaches that do not agree with everything that happens with the larger organizations, but keep their mouths shut for fear of killing the goose that laid the golden egg. There are people in my program that will not state their issues to me for fear of retribution against the son. Bottom line, there is a lot of preaching to the choir that goes on on this board. The posters often support each other as a way of justifying their beliefs. Just hang out with people that think like you and that means you are thinking the right stuff. It is sort of a support group for people that are baseball lovers or think they are baseball lovers. I get that and am OK with that too. That is a good function of the board, but opposing opinions should not be attacked. They should be dissected and discussed. Maybe they have merit.
This board is way more than a support group to find the best hamburger when the masses truck to Jupiter for the next big "can't miss" tournament. It should be a vehicle for analyzing and possibly creating change where change is needed.
I think kids are playing too much baseball and not enough other sports and people are led to believe that that is essential to the success. I think travel ball and endless tournaments are OK if you are a shortstop, but hell on pitchers. And we need them to play games. I think that young people are being pressured, even if not intended, to specialize. I do not think this is creating better athletes. I am not even certain it is creating better baseball players.
I think college baseball has less to do with coaching than ever and more to do with recruiting and this has trickled down to community colleges and now high schools. And it is a weekly ritual at the youth level. The better kids services are in demand and the recruiting animal starts there. "Where is that kid going to go" has replaced discussions about the art of leading off a base. Coaches used to be from the pool of educators, trained educators, and now the way to stay in coaching is to hopefully latch on as a volunteer assistant somewhere and work your way up. No training in how to deal with people or how people actually learn, no mentoring, just a continuation of..."we need better kids if we want to compete." High school coaching has declined because a guy can make triple the money coaching a travel team on the weekend for a guy with money to pay for him. As a result, good, but untrained people never get any mentoring or training other than to play the right kids and collect a check. Baseball has opened the door for non-teachers to climb the ladder and this can cause problems with the intricacies of coaching and teaching and dealing with youth. Baseball is not that easy. That is probably one of the reasons we all love it so much.
I think showcases make their money off the participants that have the least chance of playing at the next level. They coddle to the top players that do not need any assistance to give the appearance that the top player got where he is by the help of whatever organization is sponsoring whatever event it is and often times these players are not charged. Most coaches in the stands are probably thinking of where their dinner is going to be rather than watching the participants.
It is all business 101 to many adults whose life is in the business world. Baseball is a smaller version of any other American business. It is my money and I can spend it the way I want. Buyer beware. Create the atmosphere where the consumer thinks he needs our product. All basic stuff. Basically sell a product. Decisions are clouded when money is involved. Are any of the big movers and shakers in the youth baseball world non-profit? Let's try that approach maybe.
I strongly believe there needs to be a vehicle to educate young families about certain realities of our sport. And that education should be given by someone that does not want any money from you. We do need a forum to analyze the explosion that has taken place in youth baseball. What has been good? What has been bad?
Showcases: Good? and bad? Rankings, written reports, AFLAC games, invitations to select events, jumping from team to team, abuse of young arms, what skills are necessary to advance, do college coaches really care about my ranking in the latest top player list, how about my teams ranking in the nationwide rankings for 12 year olds. What is good about all this stuff? And what is...not so good?
I think a lot of readers on this board are only getting one side of the story. Opposing view points are good. Sometimes we need a jolt to get off our butts and make a change.
I could go on and on and I am probably making no sense. But money and baseball are a scary couple. I don't care what you tell me. All you business experts and do-gooders. Money matters and people need some information to help make good decisions about their money. We need a consumer protection component to baseball. That is what I believe. Buyer beware is not the way to go about this.
We need some certification for coaches. We need some consumer ratings for larger organizations. We need some forums to discuss safely the downs and the ups to all this stuff. That is all I am trying to say.
The internet makes it easy to promote an agenda with no regulation. If I had a 10 year old that was shaving and dunking a basketball and I knew nothing about what I should do with this lad and I went online, I can't tell the good advice from the bad. It all looks good if your website looks good and you get the right testimonials and spew a few stats. Who is helping these people? And all areas of the country are not the same. Where I live might have different issues than other areas. Some have got to be the same.
I just think there needs to be lots of questioning and discussing the merits of all these things and part of the discussion should be...do we really need this? Is this an improvement on what we used to have (like the cell phone) or is this setting us back (increase in rotator cuff injuries among youth.) We can certainly not stop the march of progress. But we can question it.
Sorry for rambling. Sorry if I offended anyone beyond the normal ruffling of feathers. I just feel strongly about baseball and I am not certain that every new thing is good.
What a difference a day makes! That was one of the most powerful and informative messages I have read on the HSBBW. Thanks for posting.
quote:I strongly believe there needs to be a vehicle to educate young families about certain realities of our sport. And that education should be given by someone that does not want any money from you. We do need a forum to analyze the explosion that has taken place in youth baseball. What has been good? What has been bad?
Showcases: Good? and bad? Rankings, written reports, AFLAC games, invitations to select events, jumping from team to team, abuse of young arms, what skills are necessary to advance, do college coaches really care about my ranking in the latest top player list, how about my teams ranking in the nationwide rankings for 12 year olds. What is good about all this stuff? And what is...not so good?
I think a lot of readers on this board are only getting one side of the story. Opposing view points are good. Sometimes we need a jolt to get off our butts and make a change.
This website does not charge so is probably the best forum for people to become educated. Lots of us know each other here but we are far from agreement on each topic. I feel all sides of the story are given here. The only thing we ask is that people are polite and respectful.
Some of the ideas being proposed about regulation and forums where free education is given without money involved sound like government intervention to me. Even government costs something in the form of taxes. I believe the free market can handle this. I believe it is a bad idea to try and regulate naivite' or gullibility.
These ventures for helping people get to the next level for profit exist in just about anything that is worthwhile achieving. Someone wants to get their kid into Harvard or Yale probably will hire a testing compnay like Princeton Review or Caplan's. Should we regulate those outfits since not all their attendees get into the IVY league schools? No matter what the venture (e.g, music, art, sports, education) there are commercial entitities that are there to assist in those pursuits. I like leaving it up to the people to decide. I don't see these issues limited to baseball imho.
In defense of the showcase circuit, Of which my son has never attended one up to this point. I listened to a regional crosschecker talk on tv last nite and he pretty much said that the days of scouts attending an individual players high school game are coming to an end. He said it is so much more cost effective to attend a showcase or the higher profile tournaments. So is the old saying"If he good enough they will find him"still valid? I sure it is for the top 100 high school players but what about the others ?
Tired I pretty much agree with most of what you said. I think this site allows diverse views and who cares if some don't agree with what I say. Hopefully it will get them to think about what they are doing even if they aren't convinced in the position a poster takes. Personal attacks on a website don't bother me nor should it bother anyone.
As far as protecting people I think this site helps educate which is all you can do. Regulation is not an option. Anyone who comes on here hears cautinary opinions and that BB is a business. It costs money to play BB today. Even teams that are "Not for Profit" have huge operating budgets and I would like to think that most people that coach and run BB organizations are there for the love opf the game. Our operating budgets of elite teams were well over $100,000 per year and that was 4-5 years ago. The coaches I have met over the years all did it for the fun and loved to do it. Some even reached in their pockets to cover short falls.
I am just not as cynical as you are about the state of BB.
I do think showcases have evolved for many reasons. If PG hadn't created Perfect Game , someone else would have. This growth of showcases has been going on for years and I started noticing the drop in scouts at tournaments when my son was 16 or so. 6-7 years ago. We used to get 50-100 scouts at some bigger tournaments and a few at less noted tournaments. There are some negatives about tournaments but overall they are the reality of the world today. It never bothered me and I knew they had some benefits in regards to colleges that you could get exposed to but we exposed ourselves to colleges we were interested in.
I do see some people who are targets to spend money they can't aford to spend but it is their resopsibility in the end.
As far as protecting people I think this site helps educate which is all you can do. Regulation is not an option. Anyone who comes on here hears cautinary opinions and that BB is a business. It costs money to play BB today. Even teams that are "Not for Profit" have huge operating budgets and I would like to think that most people that coach and run BB organizations are there for the love opf the game. Our operating budgets of elite teams were well over $100,000 per year and that was 4-5 years ago. The coaches I have met over the years all did it for the fun and loved to do it. Some even reached in their pockets to cover short falls.
I am just not as cynical as you are about the state of BB.
I do think showcases have evolved for many reasons. If PG hadn't created Perfect Game , someone else would have. This growth of showcases has been going on for years and I started noticing the drop in scouts at tournaments when my son was 16 or so. 6-7 years ago. We used to get 50-100 scouts at some bigger tournaments and a few at less noted tournaments. There are some negatives about tournaments but overall they are the reality of the world today. It never bothered me and I knew they had some benefits in regards to colleges that you could get exposed to but we exposed ourselves to colleges we were interested in.
I do see some people who are targets to spend money they can't aford to spend but it is their resopsibility in the end.
Let me begin with a full disclosure.
“tired-of-this” is my younger son’s HS coach. Based on some PMs I’ve received, I believe a fair number of the regulars on this board already know this.
Also…
Perfect Game is a business that our older son very likely benefitted from attending a few of their events (PG National, Jupiter for two).
And…
My older son (who played 4 years at a top D1 for those unfamiliar) did not play HS ball for “tired-of-this,” although if I could rewind 10 or so years, he probably would.
None of us are unbiased, but now you know at least a little about my biases. I know both of these men and feel both of them have helped my sons to excel in baseball.
Since tired-of-this and I do talk (via email mostly) about various baseball things, I suppose I might be included in that comment? It certainly would not be the first (and very likely not the last time) I would be called “wrong.” And yes, I am at least one of the people who pointed him to this thread and asked him what he thought. Like you, now I know.
But I also talk with PGStaff every once in a while (via PM)…so if he’s listening, he might now want to reconsider lest be accused of listening to the “wrong people” too!
IMO, “tired-of-this” has stated his view plainly (and perhaps courageously). I feel many of his opinions are worth thinking about. Certainly if I were an operator of a baseball business for Youth-through-HS aged kids, I would want to think hard about it. And as a parent of a younger, HS-aged kid who ?may? have a baseball future beyond HS (a VERY big “may” IMO), it is certainly something I am thinking about a lot.
But what else makes me want to think about tired-of-this’ words (other than he is my younger son’s HS coach)? Well, there are more than a few:
1. He’s been involved in HS sports and teaching for 25+ years. As you can see, he is passionate. We need passionate baseball people. That does not demand that we agree with all that they say, but passion should not be curtailed. PGStaff would certainly agree with that.
2. He’s regarded in our area as one of the very best HS coaches. Some of his rivals probably don’t like him (he wins a lot and locally he calls you on it if you goof up), but I believe they all respect him. His teams ALWAYS improve over the course of the year…so you know there’s some “coaching” going on there. His teams have also cracked the mythical national top-50 printed in various publications a number of times.
3. He’s had dozens of former players move on to all levels of college and pro baseball. He personally works his tail off to get deserving players placed into college ball. Some of his former players (and coaches) now coach in college programs, more than a few have been drafted, one has been an agent/advisor and at least one is a fairly high ranking scout in an MLB organization. He has been an evaluator for USA Baseball. Some of the national team coaches know him well (as they have told me so). There is more, but the point is, he is not oblivious to or disconnected from the world as we know it today.
4. College coaches that I have talked with about him (including my older son’s coaches) have nothing but the very best words about him.
5. He is the model of a HS coach. He loves his school. He teaches the advanced math classes at his school (therefore, academics are important to him). He annually brings in new, young coaches for his staff. He has open dialogue (invites it) with ALL of the parents in his program. Top-to-bottom, the kids in his program are friendly with each other as are the parents…it is a family and that is NO accident! It comes from the top of the program. He participates in local youth clinics for free (even though he is often offered money). He speaks at events for free. And I have seen a speech by the area’s commissioner of HS athletics in which she praised him as ‘one of the most honest and ethical coaches in any sport in our area.’
On top of all of that…he has never hesitated to tell me when he disagrees with me on something and he has often convinced me that I should look at something differently. When I don’t agree with him, he is one of those rare humans where there is NEVER retribution. He is a listener too…his program has changed over the years as travel ball has evolved and other forces have taken root. And he has also never hesitated to tell me when I am right and have changed his point of view too.
I couldn’t have ever said it more plainly or accurately. This IS “tired-of-this!”
So you can agree/disagree/get-angry at what he has said. But if I were a parent, coach or business operator…I would want to talk to this guy and pick his brain. He is wise beyond his years and I wouldn’t say anything differently whether my son makes his team or not.
“tired-of-this” is my younger son’s HS coach. Based on some PMs I’ve received, I believe a fair number of the regulars on this board already know this.
Also…
Perfect Game is a business that our older son very likely benefitted from attending a few of their events (PG National, Jupiter for two).
And…
My older son (who played 4 years at a top D1 for those unfamiliar) did not play HS ball for “tired-of-this,” although if I could rewind 10 or so years, he probably would.
None of us are unbiased, but now you know at least a little about my biases. I know both of these men and feel both of them have helped my sons to excel in baseball.
quote:Posted by PGStaff:
You have been listening to the wrong people.
Since tired-of-this and I do talk (via email mostly) about various baseball things, I suppose I might be included in that comment? It certainly would not be the first (and very likely not the last time) I would be called “wrong.” And yes, I am at least one of the people who pointed him to this thread and asked him what he thought. Like you, now I know.
But I also talk with PGStaff every once in a while (via PM)…so if he’s listening, he might now want to reconsider lest be accused of listening to the “wrong people” too!
IMO, “tired-of-this” has stated his view plainly (and perhaps courageously). I feel many of his opinions are worth thinking about. Certainly if I were an operator of a baseball business for Youth-through-HS aged kids, I would want to think hard about it. And as a parent of a younger, HS-aged kid who ?may? have a baseball future beyond HS (a VERY big “may” IMO), it is certainly something I am thinking about a lot.
But what else makes me want to think about tired-of-this’ words (other than he is my younger son’s HS coach)? Well, there are more than a few:
1. He’s been involved in HS sports and teaching for 25+ years. As you can see, he is passionate. We need passionate baseball people. That does not demand that we agree with all that they say, but passion should not be curtailed. PGStaff would certainly agree with that.
2. He’s regarded in our area as one of the very best HS coaches. Some of his rivals probably don’t like him (he wins a lot and locally he calls you on it if you goof up), but I believe they all respect him. His teams ALWAYS improve over the course of the year…so you know there’s some “coaching” going on there. His teams have also cracked the mythical national top-50 printed in various publications a number of times.
3. He’s had dozens of former players move on to all levels of college and pro baseball. He personally works his tail off to get deserving players placed into college ball. Some of his former players (and coaches) now coach in college programs, more than a few have been drafted, one has been an agent/advisor and at least one is a fairly high ranking scout in an MLB organization. He has been an evaluator for USA Baseball. Some of the national team coaches know him well (as they have told me so). There is more, but the point is, he is not oblivious to or disconnected from the world as we know it today.
4. College coaches that I have talked with about him (including my older son’s coaches) have nothing but the very best words about him.
5. He is the model of a HS coach. He loves his school. He teaches the advanced math classes at his school (therefore, academics are important to him). He annually brings in new, young coaches for his staff. He has open dialogue (invites it) with ALL of the parents in his program. Top-to-bottom, the kids in his program are friendly with each other as are the parents…it is a family and that is NO accident! It comes from the top of the program. He participates in local youth clinics for free (even though he is often offered money). He speaks at events for free. And I have seen a speech by the area’s commissioner of HS athletics in which she praised him as ‘one of the most honest and ethical coaches in any sport in our area.’
On top of all of that…he has never hesitated to tell me when he disagrees with me on something and he has often convinced me that I should look at something differently. When I don’t agree with him, he is one of those rare humans where there is NEVER retribution. He is a listener too…his program has changed over the years as travel ball has evolved and other forces have taken root. And he has also never hesitated to tell me when I am right and have changed his point of view too.
quote:Posted by Dooer:
Tired of This, who is getting a little bit of heat for his commentary, is one of the leading head HS baseball coaches in his area and works very hard for a lot of kids not affiliated with his school, to get them seen at no cost.
I couldn’t have ever said it more plainly or accurately. This IS “tired-of-this!”
So you can agree/disagree/get-angry at what he has said. But if I were a parent, coach or business operator…I would want to talk to this guy and pick his brain. He is wise beyond his years and I wouldn’t say anything differently whether my son makes his team or not.
tired of this,
Thanks for taking the time to write that. It is very obvious that you have a great passion for both education and baseball.
You have brought up many good points that I would agree with and some that I disagree with. I do believe the discussion is worthwhile. I just wish it were under a different title. I still feel you are "respectfully" targeting a bit here with most of your examples. Then again I've admitted many times that I am paranoid (not drug induced).
I plan to reply to your outstanding post, just in the interest of good discussion and accuracy.
Though you might be a very knowledgable coach, I think you would be very surprised (perhaps shocked) if you knew a bit more about certain things. Have you ever met the people involved in these "business ventures"? I think that if you could visit us for a day, you might change your mind about certain things. At least regarding what we do and why we do it. If you really care and want to find out, we will pay for your trip to Iowa. We will even pay you for your time. You might even enjoy the trip and for sure you will know much more about us. Then you can say whatever you think to whoever you think it will help and you will have a first hand account.
I will respectfully reply to your post later. Thanks again for posting.
Thanks for taking the time to write that. It is very obvious that you have a great passion for both education and baseball.
You have brought up many good points that I would agree with and some that I disagree with. I do believe the discussion is worthwhile. I just wish it were under a different title. I still feel you are "respectfully" targeting a bit here with most of your examples. Then again I've admitted many times that I am paranoid (not drug induced).
I plan to reply to your outstanding post, just in the interest of good discussion and accuracy.
Though you might be a very knowledgable coach, I think you would be very surprised (perhaps shocked) if you knew a bit more about certain things. Have you ever met the people involved in these "business ventures"? I think that if you could visit us for a day, you might change your mind about certain things. At least regarding what we do and why we do it. If you really care and want to find out, we will pay for your trip to Iowa. We will even pay you for your time. You might even enjoy the trip and for sure you will know much more about us. Then you can say whatever you think to whoever you think it will help and you will have a first hand account.
I will respectfully reply to your post later. Thanks again for posting.
justbaseball,
I certainly did not think you were one of the people that "tired of this" of this was listening to when he said these things… At least I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t have told him…
"This is all a money grab, these organizations promote that without them, nothing good could happen to kids, Strong arm tactics, Misuse of statistics and data. Successful businesses making money off a green and uninformed public, Just lots of people telling you that unless you do "A"...you have no chance to ever get "B" And that scares parents into a frenzy," etc.
Justbaseball, why in the world would I ever think “tired of this” would have gathered this information from you? Was this your experience?
So I have to think that “tired of this” is still listening to the wrong people or at least not getting all the accurate information. I don’t think for a second that any of the above comments were based on anyone listening to you. I apologize if that is the way you took it.
Thanks for telling me more about this man. I very much respect him based on listening to you. He is someone I'd like to know better. Maybe we would find a lot in common.
I certainly did not think you were one of the people that "tired of this" of this was listening to when he said these things… At least I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t have told him…
"This is all a money grab, these organizations promote that without them, nothing good could happen to kids, Strong arm tactics, Misuse of statistics and data. Successful businesses making money off a green and uninformed public, Just lots of people telling you that unless you do "A"...you have no chance to ever get "B" And that scares parents into a frenzy," etc.
Justbaseball, why in the world would I ever think “tired of this” would have gathered this information from you? Was this your experience?
So I have to think that “tired of this” is still listening to the wrong people or at least not getting all the accurate information. I don’t think for a second that any of the above comments were based on anyone listening to you. I apologize if that is the way you took it.
Thanks for telling me more about this man. I very much respect him based on listening to you. He is someone I'd like to know better. Maybe we would find a lot in common.
quote:Originally posted by lodi14:
In defense of the showcase circuit, Of which my son has never attended one up to this point. I listened to a regional crosschecker talk on tv last nite and he pretty much said that the days of scouts attending an individual players high school game are coming to an end. He said it is so much more cost effective to attend a showcase or the higher profile tournaments. So is the old saying"If he good enough they will find him"still valid? I sure it is for the top 100 high school players but what about the others ?
lodi14, your point and the information provided to you is very accurate.
I think the question to ask is even though it is accurate, is it right.
What has happened is that MLB, with the $6,000,000,000 it generates annually, and the major DI programs are able to cut their budget by placing it on the shoulders/checkbook of the parents of those playing youth sports.
I am not saying this is right or wrong. It is what college and professional scouting has become.
The old situation of they will find you if you are good only applies if you are really, really good.
If you are only "good," then you better have the money as they are not going to "find you." For those who are "good," they need to underwrite the finances for their son because showcases, to a large extent, take that financial burden from the colleges and MLB and place it squarely in your pocket book.
PGStaff - Those comments by me about being one of the "wrong people" were tongue-in-cheek (although my kids definitely think I am "wrong" quite often! 
). No apology needed.
I hope you are able to talk or meet with Coach someday soon. You will both benefit from that conversation.
). No apology needed.I hope you are able to talk or meet with Coach someday soon. You will both benefit from that conversation.