Perfect Game Youth

I know how you hate apologies, TRhit. I just remembered a thread in Pre-HS several months ago that got really ugly, and my choice of words yesterday sounded just like some of the things that other folks were saying to me and other newbies back then. Now that I have a little more experience, I understand better what they were saying - not that I necessarily agree. But I didn't want to come off as a know-it-all just a couple of years out of pre-HS. It doesn't add anything to the conversation.

I will try again and see if I can get us back on track.

I don't see any problem with PGY. In fact I think there is a huge market for it. Parents will enjoy watching their players play with and against other good players, and players will enjoy the competition. Some parents will go overboard in their assessment of their son's abilities - there's always that crowd. But I think most will be fine. If they have the money to spend, fine.

Not so long ago, I remember what a big deal it seemed to be to go to Cooperstown and watch the boys hit HRs on those tiny fields, and watch early-developing 6 foot pitchers blow normal 12-year-olds away with 70 mph fastballs from 45 feet (or whatever it was). At our school, because it is a small K-12, we get a lot of very young players on JV, and we get to hear all about how great they did at Cooperstown, how many Ks they had, how many HRs they hit, all with the expectation that other parents will understand that their players are on a straight track to MLB. And once they get on the HS field, where those HRs are pop flies and 70mph at 45 feet isn't quite the same at 60'6", most rational parents will say... "Oh." And a number of those boys who were stars on the little field will not be so on the big one, and many parents will have difficulty with that, at least at first, and some will blame the coach for not starting their "star" on varsity in the 8th grade. This has all been discussed a lot on this site.

Then I made a bad joke about just hearing more of that from parents of kids who are selected for this PGY top 200. Which we will. So there you go.

Excellent post, 2Bmom.

2BMOM

The fuzzy warmness of this site can make one sick at times---poeple stand up and speak for yourself

The Moderators do not like a post and they delete it with no warning to the poster and then ban posters for speaking their mind--- they, the moderators do not even realize they eradicated a poster who has a lot to offer to all reading the site ---I am talking about posters whom I have met and gotten to know and who have so much to offer--wow--is this the USA ???? or did I take a wrong turn at the fork in the road ????

Pretty soon there will be nothing but good feeling posts that are shallow and have no factual information--- in fact much of the current info is misleading and incorrect---do you realize you have people posting as men and they are women and vice versa? I do not think that even the moderators know this.

Thank you.

2Bmom,

That was a good post and yes we have all seen examples like the ones you posted.

Once again, I have no problem with people posting their opinions regarding anything. I just don't think going beyond the subject and giving an opinion about what someone's motives might be is neccessary. That would not be an opinion based on anything real. How could anyone possibly have a realistic opinion of what we are thinking. Do we do things to profit? Of course, if we didn't we couldn't do the things that don't produce profit. Do we do everything for profit? Absolutely not, we do many things for no other purpose than to stick to our mission of "Promote the game of baseball at all levels to the best of our ability".

Some might not agree with what we do or why we do it, but if someone were to investigate enough, they would find out that everything we do, be it at the local level or national level, revolves around promoting the game of baseball.

I think this thread has led to some misunderstandings. It seems the one thing that some are against is "ranking" young kids. I'm not sure without reading through each post again, but did I or the people running PGY ever mention the word ranking? Yes, we did mention "identfying" along with "educating", "instructing", etc.

I keep reading about the top 200 rankings and that must be based on these first two events. We (Perfect Game) do rank players. PGCrosschecker presently has national rankings for the 09, 10, 11 classes. At this time we have 1,400 players ranked in the senior or 09 class. Currently there are only 350 ranked nationally in the junior 2010 class. Most interesting is we only have 20 players ranked in the sophomore 2011 class.

Please think about the above when contemplating "ranking" for 11-12 year olds. To me, identifying players and ranking players are two different things.

TRHit,
I think you're just seeing things from a different perspective. I do agree that many posts are misleading and incorrect ---- shallow and have no factual information as are some posts in THIS thread. Matter of fact THIS post of mine has no factual information as far as baseball goes. As far as men posting as women and the other way around I'll be the first to admit that I have talked to posters for years and have no idea of their gender and see that as a moot point.

People can speak their minds OR not speak their minds ---- I don't see that as an issue here. But I can tell you the HSBBW has NO obligation to allow people to speak their minds. The purpose of the HSBBW (call it an obligation if you like) is to allow players and parents to get information (with differing opinions) to help them and their sons. Those opinions can vary drastically (some opinions may be right and some may even be wrong) but SOMEONE has to moderate that flow of information to avoid total chaos. Disagreements are not what gets peoples' posts deleted! Myself and other moderators determine what is outside the guidelines of the HSBBW and act accordingly. I understand that some people cannot and will not communicate within the guidelines of the HSBBW (see board manners) and that miniscule number of people are moderated and some are even banned in order to "protect" thousands. Call it un-American if you like --- I prefer to compare it to a dishonorable discharge that happens to OUR US servicemen that cannot stay within the guidelines.
Fungo
Sorry for getting off on a tangent --- end of comments from me.

TR I agree with you on this, but this is for another thread.

In the end who cares about 12 YO's "ranked" or "identified". PG's business is to rank and identify kids so it makes sense for them to try to expand their reach, but this is too early an age to really mean anything and in the end the only thing that matters is what a kid is doing in HS. The market will decide if this is a good idea or not, end of story.

The danger with this is that it has the potential to take away the importance of HS baseball and go the way of S o c c e r where club and national teams dominate the sport and the HS teams are essentially irrelevant. Most here believe this would be a disaster for baseball and I agree.

In the end I predict (and hope) it fails. Leave little Johnny alone, let him play multiple sports, be with his local friends enjoying his community, there will be plenty of time for national “rankings” and being “identified” in his future.

If identifing young players is not important then why does MLB have an international signing period for 16yo players. See BA November 3-16 2008 Prospect Pulse (page 10-11). These are eqivalent to HS sophmores. Think the scouts waited till these kids were 16 to determine which ones would get the six fiquire signing bonuses? PG I think the dierction you are going is proper. JMHO

quote:

Some might not agree with what we do or why we do it, but if someone were to investigate enough, they would find out that everything we do, be it at the local level or national level, revolves around promoting the game of baseball.

PG, just so you know, we thoroughly enjoyed the BCS tournaments last summer, and the WWBA 16U championships at East Cobb. Well worth the money! I'm saving up to do it again this summer.
Looking forward to the underclass showcase in December. Great events, and have served their purpose for us extremely well.

TR, your comments are actually kind of funny to me. You have that reaction so often. I agree with you on a lot of things. We just approach things in a different way, that's all.

I'm done here, too. Where's that letter jacket thread..."?

The moderators are not the bogey man. That is a straw man argument. Everyone is a moderator and has the power to influence a thread - good or bad. Everyone has the power to post (or not post) and modify or delete their own post if they see fit.

Some feel this place should be a no-holds barred cigar-smoking gentlemen's club. I disagree. Asking people to be nice (or at least respectful) is not asking that much. The people who are advocating they should be allowed to get in other people's faces (or simply be rude) will never fly with the norms of the site. That is called moderation by intimidation and there is no place for it here. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few and the group quickly catches on when there is a bully in the room.

quote:

The danger with this is that it has the potential to take away the importance of HS baseball and go the way of S o c c e r where club and national teams dominate the sport and the HS teams are essentially irrelevant. Most here believe this would be a disaster for baseball and I agree.

In the end I predict (and hope) it fails. Leave little Johnny alone, let him play multiple sports, be with his local friends enjoying his community, there will be plenty of time for national “rankings” and being “identified” in his future.

Sorry, guess I don't get it.

The danger? How could this have anything what-so-ever to do with taking anything away from high school baseball. Is high school s-cc-r irrelevant compared to where it was 20 years ago? Isn't s-cc-r a sport that has grown much faster than baseball. So if someone were to follow that model it would be a disaster? Why not find out what s-cc-r did to gain so much popularity so fast and use it in other areas. I'm not trying to be unreasonable, but I have not read one single post that has convinced me that this will ruin baseball or harm anyone associated with baseball. Least of all any 11 or 12 year old kid!

High school baseball is played everywhere. Not many go the club route during high school season. Yet this same stuff has gone on at the older levels for years without affecting high school baseball. There has been 11-12 year olds playing and traveling all over the place for many years. Has it hurt high school baseball?

Where in all of this does it give anyone the idea that Johnny can't play multiple sports? BTW, I'm in favor of that! Even more how will this keep Johnny from spending time with his friends and enjoying the community?

Just to give a different viewpoint... *Perhaps there should be a question mark after "who cares") Just because some don't care doesn't mean all don't care. Everyone understands that high school is more important. Or is it college? or is it pro? Why is nothing before high school important? Isn't getting to high school important?

Once more... Imagine there were a 12 year old boy who had brothers well over 6 foot tall and tall athletic looking parents. Imagine he was the best arm around at that age, but his mechanics were terrible. Imagine this kid playing for one of the many coaches who only care about winning. Imagine his parents not knowing how to help this kid and simply enjoying all the success he is having pitching all the time and winning games. Imagine those parents doing exactly what many here post might be bad... The rose colored glasses! In that reagrd... I hope they DON'T fail!

Would it benefit that kid AND his parents to learn what is best for the kids future and possibly his health? And to learn it from people with undeniable credentials. Could it benefit the kid and his parents if he found out that the kid is talented, but there are many equally or more talented. Regarding the events upcoming... would this kid and the parents likely to listen to people with experience like Garth Iorg, Tim Dulin, or how about the National League MVP?

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind with this stuff. I'm just trying to explain some other things that might be getting overlooked here. Everyone is free to have their opinion... Even me! I promise that as soon as we see this hurting baseball in any way... we will admit we are wrong and stop promoting it.

quote:

Everyone is free to have their opinion... Even me! I promise that as soon as we see this hurting baseball in any way... we will admit we are wrong and stop promoting it.

And I will be glad to "apologize" for having made that mistake.

Isn't it amazing that this thread is now working on it's fifth page about a topic that most of us do not even have kids involved. People are arguing, making accusations and getting banned from this website. Heck even PGStaff sounds annoyed and I think that is hard to do.

Some of the most emotional and pointed threads are on this Pre-High School section. (Hitting thread is a close second.) This only proves that the younger the kids the rawer the feelings. Most parents and " past parents" of 11-13 year atheletes seem to have their minds made up about youth sports and nothing is going to change the way they feel.

I don't know if one way is better than the other but I think the best analogy is the sprint vs. the long distance race. Don't rush things. Take it one season at a time. Work on getting better every winter. Don't let setbacks destroy your confidence but learn from them. Building on success with more hard work.

Atheletes aways talk about slowing the game down. When things seem like they are in fast motion with everything swriling around they have trouble succeeding. The success comes when things slow down to where a player can see and adjust on the fly.

Youth parents have to slow down the race to college scholarships and the MLB draft. When we slow this journey down we can see the path to, hopefully our children's goals, much clearer and make less emotional decisions and more adjustments.

I guess my feeling is that making determinations on 11-13 year olds is keeping the pedal to the metal.

This is somewhat dated but I believe still has relevance in this discussion.

http://www.fitness.gov/youthsports.pdf

My concern over the overpromotion of sports at a young age can be summarized below in bold.

If 6' Billy's parents want to get him pitching lessons then let them - but lets not continue to drag and over exploit our youth (too soon)

OTHER BARRERS TO PARTICIPATION

Restricted Sports Offerings

The suggestion that barriers to participation in youth sports constitute a national dilemma
may seem like a paradox to the casual observer of the national scene.Newspapers, journals,
radio, and television constantly remind us of America’s obsession with sports. However, closer
scrutiny reveals that sports in America represent a highly exclusionary process, with only theelite performers accorded a share of the spotlight. The headlines fail to account for the
millions of young people who seek to participate or who would continue in organized sports
were it not for the restrictions that are inherent in the adult version of highly organized
competitive sports for children. In fairness to the several million adults who annually
volunteer to coach youth sports, it is only through the efforts of these volunteers that youth
sports are able to record their annual record-breaking participation rates.

OVERZEALOUS PROMOTERS

The problems of overzealous coaches and parents are so prevalent in youth sports that dozensof books and countless articles have been written to counteract this undue influence. The listof books ranges from teaching coaches and parents how to assess talent (Arnot & Gaines,1986), to teaching pediatricians about youth sports injuries (Micheli, 1984), to information about the epidemiology of sports injuries (Caine, Caine, & Lindner, 1996). In addition, no fewer than 20 position statements (see Table 20.4) have been issued by professional
organizations, addressing precautions that should apply to the sports participation of children
and youth.

The rationale for the increased intensity of training and the extended duration of seasons
in youth sports stems from the assumption that optimal performance can only be achieved
after prolonged periods of practice. However, the data on burnout (Coakley, 1992; Rowland,
1986; Ward, 1982) and attrition (Burton, 1988; Gould, 1987) support the contention that for
almost all of the youthful aspirants, these periods of intensive training have no justifiable
physiological, psychological, or educational basis (International Federation of Sports
Medicine, 1991). Even those who survive these rigorous sessions and go on to Olympic fame
may have long-lasting physical and psychological consequences resulting from intensive
training (Coakley, 1992).

There is common agreement that sports programs for children and youth can enhance motoric, physical, and social growth. However, when training sessions become so intensive that they result in social isolation, disempowerment, and permanent injuries (Coakley, 1992)then one must question their motives and tactics. Ironically, there are child labor laws in many countries that forbid stereotype work movements and excessive loading (International

quote:

The danger with this is that it has the potential to take away the importance of HS baseball and go the way of S o c c e r where club and national teams dominate the sport and the HS teams are essentially irrelevant. Most here believe this would be a disaster for baseball and I agree.

In the end I predict (and hope) it fails. Leave little Johnny alone, let him play multiple sports, be with his local friends enjoying his community, there will be plenty of time for national “rankings” and being “identified” in his future.

quote:

Sorry, guess I don't get it.

The danger? How could this have anything what-so-ever to do with taking anything away from high school baseball. Is high school s-cc-r irrelevant compared to where it was 20 years ago?

Not that it will endanger HS baseball, but it has the potential. There are parents in my neck of the woods with kids in high level travel ball who have asked me or others, "Why should my son even bother playing HS baseball?" (One was a parent of a 14U USA Team member...nice guy, but asked the question seriously...I was there).

When the ratcheting goes up, things like this can creep in...and do. Local ranked HS girls s-o-c-c-e-r team voted, en masse, to skip their HS s****r season (leaving the school with none of its best players) so they could compete as a 'club' in a few national events.

Yes, these are just little events...but you asked how it had anything to do, whatsoever, with HS sports. It apparently has and does in my own little neighborhood. Hard to believe its the only place.

Lastly, while I have no intention of hurting anyone's feelings, I do feel that discussions like this one (however frank) are good for parents and for a company/group thinking about or already involved in this project. If it does nothing more than alert either entity to some of the traps and makes each more sensitive to and aware of the issues, then it was a very good thread IMO. I'm always trying to anticipate the good and the bad that may be around the corner for me/my family/my work. I feel I'll be better prepared for any of it. I feel the same could be said for young parents, PG-Youth or anyone else considering some aspect of youth baseball.

Frank/blunt discussion hurts my feelings too (like everyone else) sometimes, but I almost always learn something from it.

quote:

When the ratcheting goes up, things like this can creep in...and do. Local ranked HS girls s-o-c-c-e-r team voted, en masse, to skip their HS s****r season (leaving the school with none of its best players) so they could compete as a 'club' in a few national events.

Guess my point was... Has high school s-cc-r gained or lost popularity over the past decade or so? And has S-cc-r overall gained or lost popularity during that time?

At the same time... We know that over the past 20 years youth baseball has lost a lot of popularity in many parts of the country.

Guess I don't understand what a parent had in mind when asking "Why should my son even bother playing HS baseball"? I could count on one hand the number of high level players who didn't play high school baseball. Where else will they play and against who during the high school season? And even if they didn't play wouldn't that just open up more opportunity for others to play?

I've heard parents ask rediculous questions many times. It just proves that there is plenty of room for them to learn. If kids and parents are educated correctly, they wouldn't have to ask questions like, should we just skip high school baseball. In this case, the people in charge have all played high school baseball, had kids who had or will play high school baseball. I'm pretty sure they would highly recommend playing high school baseball. I'm pretty sure they would tell any talented young kid that they shouldn't think they have it made already.

I don't think it makes much difference if parents choose to do this thing or not get involved. I just can't see any harm either way and for sure I can not see any danger involved. There are many much more dangerous things that young kids can get involved in. If anyone feels there is danger involved, by all means they should not participate.

It is funny to see people giving advice, unsolicited, to one of the most sucessful baseball ventures available. If there is a market, who might be better qualified to help develop it ??? As to whether or not you would entertain having a child participate, that's an entirely different and more credible thread. I'm sure there are far more youth players who would benefit from these sort of events than be harmed by them.

Advice and opinions are what we give here Yankeelvr. There should be no offense taken.

I am a parent of 6 kids (ages 9-24)...my wife comes from a family of 15 kids. Many who know us would say we are "successful" as parents (although there are certainly times when I'd highly question that assertion! ).

Does that make us un-advisable as parents? Do we know everything already? Is it not possible for us to do better?

Silly questions, huh? Nearly all of the advice given on this thread was based on respect, nothing less. Mine certainly was. And of course, anyone can choose to do whatever they want with regards to this. There is no dispute about that.

quote:

At the same time... We know that over the past 20 years youth baseball has lost a lot of popularity in many parts of the country.

In my 10 years on the local Pony baseball league Board (ages 5-16) (1995-2004, 3 as vice-president, 3 as president) we increased league enrollment from around 400 kids to over 1,100 kids. Thats a trend almost no one can match. We balanced teams (no dynasties in our league!), adjusted rules to age abilities, granted free enrollment to anyone who just asked (no proof of need required) and introduced programs (training, etc...) that no other league offered.

My point is, there are other ways to get young kids interested and keep them happy. Over 25 kids from that era went on to play college and pro baseball.

Since then and with the introduction of so-called competitive travel ball at younger ages (9-12) in our area, that league's enrollment has fallen back by a couple hundred kids...not all to the travel teams. A lesson that has been learned is that often kids follow their friends into activities...if the activity is unattainable for the lesser talented kid to be in the same group with his/her more talented friend...our data shows they often give it up altogether.

THIS ALONE is no argument against PG-Youth...just a piece of data that suggests it is not a simple equation of Increased competitiveness=Increased participation.

Perhaps the thing I am most proud of from my time on the Board is that we listened to our parents and adjusted our program (yearly in some cases) to meet needs and lessons learned. I believe that, above all else, was our reason for success. One could argue in either direction about the adjustments evolving from concepts such as PGY. I don't know the answer...time will tell I suppose.

Personally, I think this is one of the most interesting, important and thought provoking topics on this site.
With regard to who is providing opinions, I believe most of these posts deserve serious consideration, since there has never been a concerted effort to generate a national market to "rank" talent for age groups 11-14.
When you combine that with marketing that begins with the number of players attending PG events who get drafted or commit to the very top baseball conferences on baseball "scholarships," more, not less transparency should absolutely be the goal of our discussions. When the marketing on the site concludes with PG Youth arrowed to PG, arrowed to "college/pro," the message is clear from where I am sitting but I sure don't think the message can be supported at the PG Youth level.
The marketing of college scholarships, the draft and the PG successes is enticing, but misleading and should not be done, in my view.
With articles from Dr Andrews and other describing the proliferation of baseball injuries and surgeries in the age groups from 12-18, there certainly seems, from where I sit, legitimate reason to question if this type of national ranking program is a benefit or, alternatively, an addition to the risk of injury. If this type of competition at this age were viewed by the best medical specialists to "add" to the risk, why would that risk be worthwhile?
To follow on a point made by justbb and also addressed by PG, with the increase in club s****r on a national basis, there certainly is a well known and often reported large increase in ACL injuries, amongst others, for women's s****r.
Finally, I don't understand the reference by PG to the decline in baseball interest. The reasons are likely multi-factorial. If there is a suggestion that national rankings and competition amongst 11-14 year olds will change that aspect, I am not understanding that one.
.

Just to be clear, I seldom get mad when someone disagres with what I think. I'd like to consider myself a good "listener". The only thing that upset me in this whole thread was the questioning rearding the motives. I'm sure no one here would like to be labeled as someone preying and taking advantage of kids and their parents.

Being involved in baseball for what now seems an entire lifetime, I've learned quite well that I'm not always right and don't always have the right answers. People can make mistakes, they just shouldn't make them on purpose!

Also because of what we do and a past spent evaluating and projecting players (guessing) I've become obsessed with information (Data).

The last post by justbaseball is very good information about what actually happened in his experience. I also am stubborn enough to believe the numbers wouldn't have dropped so much had he still been in charge. Somehow, it's the leadership that is most responsible for the results. We have seen this all over the country.

In our little corner of the world, we have been very proactive in promoting baseball by giving young kids many more options and creating more opportunities including first class instruction and evaluations that have helped many improve a lot over time. Youth baseball has become very popular here, to the point of where it was many many years ago.

I respect all the opinions. I used to believe the same way as some of the others posting here. But this is not something that we took lightly (putting our name on PGY). This was a long drawn out thing that had many good baseball people involved and offering opinions. At the beginning there was an equal for and against number of people. After more than a year of discussions, arguments, and deep thinking, we decided the good far outweighed the bad. At this time, we still feel that way, but have found some things to iron out.

I would appreciate any suggestions on how to make this the best it can be. After all, we are involved, at least our name is involved, and it is going to happen. I understand that some are voicing their opinion and saying this is bad, there's no need, even this is harmful. Well I respect the opinions, but we are already involved. I would much rather hear ideas that might make it more beneficial. Time will tell how this works out. I am hoping it creates a lot of interest, helps a lot of young kids and is very good for youth baseball.

I only know that at the first sign of anything we are involved with being bad for youth baseball, I'm going to hang it up.

quote:

With articles from Dr Andrews and other describing the proliferation of baseball injuries and surgeries in the age groups from 12-18, there certainly seems, from where I sit, legitimate reason to question if this type of national ranking program is a benefit or, alternatively, an addition to the risk of injury. If this type of competition at this age were viewed by the best medical specialists to "add" to the risk, why would that risk be worthwhile?

infielddad,

This is actually one of the main attributes we see in PGY. We feel, through years of experience, that if one was to try to explain the number one reason for so many arm injuries among very young kids it could be explained in one word... Ignorance! Educating people so they understand the "real" dangers out there. PGY will not add risk but help people understand how to lower that risk while still doing the things needed to keep improving.

I don't agree with some of the marketing involved and we are discussing that with the PGY group. However, bringing up the results of PG seems relevent because most parents of kids these ages have no idea who Perfect Game is. So there is a connection of some sort, at least from a credibility standpoint. I guess they wouldn't have wanted to use our name without "using" our name.

PG,
Thank you for that explanation. I applaud the inclusion and appreciation of the education.
My focus was probably not well posted.
My concern is more on the impact of the competition that I envision will exist in order to potentially get invited and to be ranked.
As I read the site and appreciate what will happen, the competition will be by invitation only. Necessarily, players will have to compete at the highest level to be considered for an invitation and then to be invited. In my view, that can be a two edged sword.
The PG reputation as a "pathway" for exposure and success in college/professional baseball is unquestioned.
Placed into the 11-14 group, that "pathway" gets pushed down to a level where parents, and necessarily their sons, see PG Youth as part of the "pathway."
With PGYouth introduced as part of the "pathway" to be part of the PG success, the level of effort, the level of intensity, the desire to get exposure, and the "need" to be invited is the "pathway" to PG, but to me is also the pathway I see as increasing the potential risk of injury.
Said more succinctly, it isn't the 3 days in the camp, it is the 362 days of competition to get an invite to the "pathway" that leads to my comments on the risks.

quote:

Originally posted by fillsfan:
Isn't it amazing that this thread is now working on it's fifth page about a topic that most of us do not even have kids involved. People are arguing, making accusations and getting banned from this website. Heck even PGStaff sounds annoyed and I think that is hard to do.

Good post, but I don't see where there is arguing, accusations or know of anyone getting banned from this discussion.

I agree this is a good topic and I agree that no one knows better than PG in this business. This place is for expressing opinions in a nice way (without malice) and that is what makes this place special.

What someone pointed out to me and I find interesing is that there is definetly a line drawn between parents that have gone down the road and those that are beginning or in travel mode. Perhaps it may be that when all is said and done, you look back and sift through what was necessary and what was not, and what was done just for fun or what was done with a purpose in mind.

If I wiped out my memory of the last 12-14 years of sons baseball, not sure what we would find would be important and what would not be to participate in. I suppose lots would depend on our finances. Which is an individual decision.

I think that educating parents and players is perhaps the single most important thing in youth baseball today, if that is a goal and purpose then that is a great thing, whether you are a coach, parent, player or an organization such as PG. We all have to be in this together so that all players have an equal chance to live their dream. We all don't have to agree, IMO, on which is the best way to achieve it.

The reason MLB teams head to foreign countries and draft 16 year olds is because our 17,18 choose to forgo the draft and head to college first.

Just cannot forego the opportunity to post on this very good discussion, so here goes.

Let’s call it a thumbnail history of one baseball player – and a little about his father – from age 4 to 18.

Age 4 – 10 Son played in local pony parks from t-ball through Mustang (age 10), along with a few local tournaments. All Star every year. The last year of Mustang, Dad was the coach. Boy what an opportunity – drafted 5 eventual all-star players, had the best team on paper. Went 10 – 15. But here is the most important statistic of that season – it was then that I vowed I would not step on a field to coach my son again. The reason had something to do with me wanting to be as hard (or harder as is the case) on my son as the other players. One case of chasing him around the car yelling at him in front of the whole team (all wide eyed) and another case of making him cry in the dugout.

11 – 12 AAU travel ball. Another incident with Dad, telling a 12 year old while he was crying that he had to play the next game of the double header even though his arm hurt. Stupid.

13 Christmas – travel to Australia and play in Goodwill games. Dad accompanies and really enjoys the experience.

13-14 Back to pony baseball and some combined summer tournaments. No pressure by Dad, enjoy the game.

Freshman to Junior Year – Fall and Spring Varsity Ball – Summer Legion. Dad just enjoys the game.

Sophomore Christmas Break – Perfect Game National Underclass.

Sophomore Summer – Colt World Series in Indiana. Good trip and great baseball, enjoying the game.

Junior Summer play for out of state travel team PG 18U WWBA and CABA World Series.

Week of July phone calls – 2 ACC, 3 Midlevel D1’s.

Senior September Verbals with local D2 and signs November.

The bottom line? Now when I go back to the local park to watch those 8 – 14 year olds, I make it a point to inflict my wisdom on the High Pressure Dads, you know, the ones yelling at Johnny to throw harder. The ones making Johnny cry. Because I can say I have been there and this is not worth it, not one darn bit. That you too one day will regret what you are doing. It makes me sad to remember those days and I wish I could have them back.

Now if all PGY did was start out their showcases with a lesson to the parents warning them of this it would be worth all the fuss you are talking about. If even one Dad got the message it would be worth it. And PGStaff states it will be about learning. Jerry, see if you can convince those guys at PGY to make it about that type of learning too. I’ll even volunteer to be “Exhibit A” and make a speech if you have events here in Tampa, if you don’t mind seeing an old Dad shed a tear.

Backstop,

Your post is really appreciated. I get tired of those who think they have always made the exact right moves. We all know better than that, I've made more than my fair share of mistakes raising my children and even coaching them. You are not alone, in fact you are part of the majority IMO.

You learned and made the adjustments. Many people don't learn and don't adjust. It sounds like your son turned out fine and you were a big reason why.

We don't run PGY, but I think your story would be very valuable. Your story would even be valuable at the events we do with older kids. But the sooner people learn those things the better for the kids.

I don't have to convince the guys at PGY, we have already talked about things like this. Problem is... will the parents who need to learn the most be the parents who show up?

Thanks again for that "great" post. All I can say about you is... What a good Dad!

quote:

I’ll even volunteer to be “Exhibit A” and make a speech if you have events here in Tampa, if you don’t mind seeing an old Dad shed a tear.

backstop,

Your post made me shed a tear. Thank you for that story.

Julie

Backstop-17, what a great story. Thanks for sharing that with us. The higher Bum, Jr. has gone the more I have noticed the overbearing fathers (and moms) have fallen by the wayside. I have witnessed an altercation at a T-ball game, watched a dad whose son (age 10) was substituted in the late innings standing at the 3B fence screaming the F-word at a coach for pulling him, watched a mom scream at a middle-school coach for being too tough on her kid (not really), have seen parents belittle their kids to tears for making simple fielding errors. I've seen it all. And I suppose all of you have, too.

Yes, PGY will do wonders if it conveys to these parents that making it to the top requires not only talent and hard work but mental toughness, patience, humility, and an ability to not fear failure. But above all, parents who are willing to let go!

My guess is that the #1 reason players do not make it to the higher levels is because of attitude. Whether the attitude is "I can't do this", or "I could of done this if not for so and so."

If PGY can bring in some guys who have made it to the higher levels, who can really drive this message home-- to back off for the sake of your kids--it would really be something special. Not just a rating service, or a baseball training organization, but a MENTOR service for kids who all too often these days lack suitable role models and have never heard a message of humility in this generation of "ME FIRST". My second suggestion would be to have some sort of outreach to innercity youth who have the talent but desperately need the opportunity and venue. Just a thought.

So PG Staff, since you asked for advise, mine would be to help set the stage for these kids/young men by teaching the mental aspect of the game first and foremost.

I would appreciate any suggestions on how to make this the best it can be. After all, we are involved, at least our name is involved, and it is going to happen.

----------------------------------------------------
pg
looking at the pg youth website again,it is billed as a showcase. i'm a dinosaur when it comes to showcases,our last one was 6 yrs ago. upon further reading it sounds more like a camp/clinic ?

only the top 200? maybe this is all that can be handled with the people involved and keep the quality of instruction ?

if the number one reason they are doing this is instruction,it maybe should be the headline? pg your reason of identifying is just a bonus.

if the instruction is the point of this,then i eventually see 4 or 5 of these around the country or more. but advertised as camps/clinics,which in my mind is more of what it is?

i still don't see (but i do understand) the need to identify the top 200 or 500. but i see a great big need for quality instruction for that age group.

maybe i'm just seeing/reading things like an old guy.

quote:

It makes me sad to remember those days and I wish I could have them back.

Nice post, Backstop-17.....................

These 6 pages really exemplify what the hsbbweb is about. Tons of advice from lots of different people with many different experiences that have shaped their lives( and their players lives).

And, boy , do the personalties come out. I am inspired by the posters with so much tact. They can say so much without being rude or too blunt. Some posters come across as crusty old men that while very knowledgable about baseball are not very likable (and they don't care to be likable anyway).But, one thing you can be sure of here, you'll always get an answer to your question!

Is this a great place or what?

quote:

Some posters come across as crusty old men that while very knowledgable about baseball are not very likable (and they don't care to be likable anyway).

Oops! Sorry if I resemble that remark (the 'crusty old guy' part)!

CaBB,
I know a few people that run and manage scout.com sites and have another who owns a blogging site.
Sometimes there isn't even anything such as a three strike rule, they don't like your post or intentions, it's gone, and you are too, regardless if you are a paying customer or there for the free stuff.
Someone once made a post on another site I read once in awhile and I guess someone thought that I responded negatively to them, the next thing I know is that I got an email from the owner reminding me that my comment was unacceptable. I went back to apologize to that person and we are now frequent emailers and good friends.

We are off the topic now, sorry.

justbaseball,

No, you do not "resemble that remark"!

I'm pretty sure CaBB did not have you in mind when she made the comment about posters who come across as "not very likable". There is a huge difference between respectfully explaining why you disagree with another poster (which is what I see you do occasionally) and the behavior CaBB described.


Julie

crust·y (krŭs'tē) Pronunciation Key
adj. crust·i·er, crust·i·est

Having, resembling, or being a crust.
Rough or surly in manner. See Synonyms at gruff.
crust'i·ly adv., crust'i·ness n.


The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2006 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
Cite This Source
crusty

adjective
1. having a hardened crust as a covering [syn: crusted]
2. brusque and surly and forbidding; "crusty remarks"; "a crusty old man"; "his curmudgeonly temper"; "gruff manner"; "a gruff reply"


WordNet® 3.0, © 2006 by Princeton University.
Cite This Source
Crusty

Crust"y\ (-[y^]), a. 1. Having the nature of crust; pertaining to a hard covering; as, a crusty coat; a crusty surface or substance.

2. [Possibly a corruption of cursty. Cf. Curst, Curstness.] Having a hard exterior, or a short, rough manner, though kind at heart; snappish; peevish; surly.

Naw, it wasn't you jb.

Really off topic now but some of my favorite people are crusty old men because they are softies on the inside.

Kinda like an oreo, huh?
Sometimes ya wanna dunk em' and sometimes ya don't.

PGSTAFF,
I noticed Rounding Third Blog kind of raked the PGY over the coals. My fear is that people are starting to associate PGY as being synonymous with PG and I don't think that is good publicity. It seems that the general concensus is that this type of event is not beneficial for these age kids, when comparing cost to other activities (private lessons, college camps, etc). Truth be told, PGY is more backed by Travel Ball Select but they are not suffering the publicity hit.

I can only assume they were trying to develop a process to quantify the "Players to Watch" and "All-America" lists they put out. I applaude anyone's efforts to quantify a process that is clearly entangled with subjectivity. However, the debate clearly comes with the benefit for a ranking, at all, for players at this age.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Also because of what we do and a past spent evaluating and projecting players (guessing) I've become obsessed with information (Data).

I know Jerry and I talked about this a few years ago...trying to collect data to help with projections. I understand the motivation behind it and think it is a good thing.

southpaws_dad,

I saw that blog and as always everyone is welcome to their opinion. We knew ahead of time that this was going to cause some controversy.

That said, our opinion is... This could become valuable to many young players and parents. I have stated many reasons in this thread as to why we believe that way.

Sometimes you just need to trust your judgement no matter what others might think. That is what we will do until we feel it isn't helping anyone.

I actually thought "Rounding Third" said some very nice things in that blog. I'm not sure they have asked us for our opinion or the details involved. In the interest of fair journalism, that does concern me a little, but not enough to make a big deal about it.

That said... We like what "Rounding Third" is doing. They are helping to promote amateur baseball. Which BTW is our major reason for lending our name to PGY.