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Perfect Game Youth

2Bmom2Bmom1,000+ posts
So, just to stir things up a bit. I can only speak for myself, but this is my reaction.

First of all -
quote:
How much does it cost for a Dominican kid to play baseball? Who is being better served in the sport right now?

How many more opportunities for a good standard of living do our boys have in this country than those Dominican kids? No contest. I don't envy the Dominicans their access to baseball at a young age. Our boys have access to education.

But the real issue in my mind is that "tired", with all due respect, writes a thesis after having admitted that he just logged on "on a whim" yesterday. He writes as if we are all being led by the nose, but almost everything he includes has been argued voraciously on one thread or another. I agree with many of the things he points out, but the assumption that these things aren't already being discussed is wrong.

quote:
I just think there needs to be lots of questioning and discussing the merits of all these things


Isn't that what we do here? Isn't that already going on in this very thread? Opposing opinions get attacked/discussed all the time.

quote:
The better kids services are in demand and the recruiting animal starts there. "Where is that kid going to go" has replaced discussions about the art of leading off a base.


Speaking as a parent of a young sophomore, solid player, average size and speed, the non "stud", who has already gotten noticed by at least one high academic D3 and two D1s because he knows how to play the game, "tired," is there a chance that you are buying into the hype? Sure, the 6.19 speed, the 6'6" lefty, or the monstrous power bat get first attention, but it seems that they are also looking for players who know the game and can help the team maybe without being a star. I do agree that my son had to be in the right place at the right time (thanks PG and USA Baseball), there is still much work to do, and he was on a team with some very good players, so maybe the scouts came over to watch and saw the 2B. A rising tide raises all boats, as JFK said. But it didn't take that much to get him there. I just got a call from a coach, said OK, and paid about as much as some women do for hair dressers. manicures, and handbags. Of course, you won't see me on the cover of Vogue, but you'll see me at the game. Smile

quote:
This board is way more than a support group to find the best hamburger when the masses truck to Jupiter for the next big "can't miss" tournament.

Have you ever been to Jupiter? Have you ever seen the level of play there? If not, please go. And take our HS coach with you. Smile

quote:
It is sort of a support group for people that are baseball lovers or think they are baseball lovers.


What? Think they are baseball lovers? Please explain.

quote:
Most coaches in the stands are probably thinking of where their dinner is going to be rather than watching the participants.


Wow. You have most certainly not met our summer coach, who, by the way, has a stellar track record of getting players to the next level. Our team has been having off-season workouts to get ready for PG underclass, at which former members of the team, pros and college players show up. This coach does it because he loves it. There is not a cent involved. And having young players work out with successful college and pro players is really fantastic.

quote:
The posters often support each other as a way of justifying their beliefs. Just hang out with people that think like you and that means you are thinking the right stuff.


This is what humans do. I challenge you to look around a bit, and you will see that there are myriad differing opinions on just as many different subjects. If anything, we are not sheep.

"tired," obviously you are known and well-respected by several members of the HSBBW, and I mean no disrespect at all. But if a true "newbie" had come on and posted these things, I think the reaction would be completely different.
Last edited by 2Bmom
justbaseballjustbaseball10,000+ posts
quote:
But if a true "newbie" had come on and posted these things, I think the reaction would be completely different.


No, the reaction would have been the same (initially). Just too bad that no one would have been there to set the record straight. We act a bit like a mob on here sometimes and if you don't see that now...hang around for a while and you will.

Ever heard the expression, 'That guy knows so much he's forgotten more about baseball than I will ever know?' This IS that guy.

You're picking on the wrong guy. You have no way to verify that, but I and others on here do know that and I hope you get the chance to find out someday. But I doubt that chance will come.
Last edited by justbaseball
infielddadinfielddad10,000+ posts
2Bmom,
While there are many divergent aspects to posting on the HSBBW with regard to the college recruiting process, I think there is one pretty consistent aspect.
That consistency is that those of us who are looking back on the recruiting process have some differing views as contrasted with those, like you, who are in the middle of it or looking up at it.
I have never met tired of this. However, I know of him and have talked with local high school coaches who have nothing but respect for him.
Where I think tired provides unique perspective that is unusual to this topic, on this board, is that he is one of the very best high school baseball coaches, anywhere.
Second, he does not run a travel team or showcase.
Third, he does not have a son at the level where these types of baseball influences are in play.
Four, he is well connected with college coaches.
Five, he lives and coaches in an area where parents can be highly competitive, highly successful, highly ambitious and live, too often, their dreams for their children through their children.
From where I sit, he has demonstrated expertise, at the highest level. He is able to be objective and neutral without either a parental or financial interest in the outcome.
When I read his post, I immediately expected vehement disagreement with it. Indeed, there may be parts with which to vehemently disagree.
The aspects with which, in my view, there can be no disagreement are his qualifications and objectivity to raise the questions that he has raised and the need to have the questions raised for discussion.
Last edited by infielddad
C CaBB1,000+ posts
Knowing who "tired of this" is and respecting him immensely, I can understand his frustration with the current state of high school baseball. He has been very involved in this sport for years and has seen tremendous change in how things are done.

I also wonder if living in an affluent area like he does, with many highly educated parents makes a difference in the way parents approach baseball???

In our area of CA (and probably many other areas of the US), we are at a somewhat frenzied level to get our kids into good high schools and good colleges.I'm not saying this is a good thing, it's just my perception of the way I see it. The competition is intense for both of the above. Then mix in trying to get recruited for a sport and I'm sure he's bombarded with anxious inquiries from all sorts of parents. Many of the sports teams at his private school have won state titles many times. I don't think the current baseball mentality is any different than the mentality for basketball or football or college admissions.

Like it or not, the frenzied competition for roster spots and college entrance is here to stay. Parents pay enormous amounts of money for private high schools, SAT tutoring, baseball lessons, music lessons, etc,etc. This 2009 class is the largest applying to colleges EVER. As the numbers start to decrease maybe the competition for roster spots and college admissions will naturally decrease.

But that said, some of the best times we had were attending the Perfect Game tournaments in East Cobb when my son was 15 and 16. I personally think PG is a great organization.

Parents can choose to spend their money any way they want. If they feel peer pressure to attend lots of events to help get their son recruited then it's their perogative. Ideally they should educate themselves about this process and make decisions based upon their family circumstances.

I am soooooo glad we're done and son is in college!
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
quote:
First a bit of a disclaimer. I have posted on this site on and off since 2003. I have used two names. 60'6" and tired of this. There is no sinister plot or analysis as to why this is. I am a novice regarding the sign up process and passwords and all that. I have the same two names on another board that simply exists because I originally used two computers and that is how it worked. Suffice to say, I used to check this board a lot. I was fascinated by it. As time has gone on, I simply do not have the time. So, I am as rusty as hell, and actually logged on yesterday on a whim and tried what I thought MIGHT be my password and user name...and here we are. So please dismiss with the analysis of where I have come from and what sinister agenda I must have.

I have loosely followed this thread since it was brought to my attention. I have not read everything, but it is easy to see it has been controversial.

I have many opinions about the state of baseball and education and these topics because I have been a coach and teacher for 28 years and they are my passions. I have found that keeping them to myself is sometimes the route I should go and using my experiences to educate is another route I can take. Probably should have just kept my mouth shut yesterday.

So what I am writing this morning is simply my opinion on some of these topics. I have no agenda other than to educate, and in my opinion there is a HUGE need for that for everyone that is diving into this pool with your kids. If this starts a discussion, great, if not, great too. I will say in advance that I am not going to be able to participate as much as I want. I tend to put other things aside when I get involved in these discussions, and after this post, I simply do not have the time to compose replies throughout the day. I would be happy to be contacted via this site as I believe those capabilities exist.

I understand the posters that bring a business background to this discussion. Yes, this is America and the consumer decides the success of the business and all that. I just think that when baseball crossed over into being a sport that can be referred to as a business at the youth level that our troubles began. Again, just my opinion. PG, Baseball Factory, other large and successful organizations, gigantic travel organizations, private lessons, recruiting companies, even this website. They are all business ventures that have certainly moved our game forward, but have also brought with them problems. The minute that "patient 0" decided that there was money that could be made off the marketing, teaching, or promoting of this game is the day everything changed in my opinion.
Coach, please understand that we should have gone bankrupt every day the first 6 years we were Perfect Game. The only thing that kept us going was we knew we were helping a lot of kids and this was baseball. It was never about making money and it still isn't about making money. However, without money we can not survive and keep helping young players.

It might be as simple as the evolution of any industry,the speed bumps that we are experiencing. I don't really know. As has been stated, people can do whatever they want with there money. And they do.

I just believe that many of these organizations that sell the game are not always honest and upstanding with their customers. I am not targeting PG, so put your poison darts down. It starts at the lower levels and families do what they think they need to do to help their kid. There is a, "You need to do this if you want to make it." mentality that is sold every day to unsuspecting families. My mailbox is filled with them every day. So is my email box. Baseball has become a cottage business and many non-coaches have been able to create a niche by which they can be part of the game. I get that. It is not going away, but the byproduct of this is some nuclear waste that I believe is hurting the game.
I can't speak for every individual within our organization, but I can speak for those at the top. Marketing is an absolute must, whether we like it or not, whether we are good at it or not. Honesty is my main attribute! I couldn't live with myself and we would not have grown this much if we lacked honesty. I have no poison darts. I have personally told many parents to save their money they don't need to do our event. There are people who post here who know that. I have never made a guarantee that some will get recruited/drafted, etc by attending our stuff. I have a history of donating time to the game, just like you do. I'm willing to bet my history id even longer than yours. Now that I know where you coach, I can see why you might think the way you do. I checked our database and you appear to have a lot of kids at your school who would get invitations from us. I've also noticed that very few from your school have attended our stuff. That is OK! I am not a NON Coach, I just don't coach these days. I've spent much of my life coaching and scouting. I sincerely believe there are many problems associated with the showcase world and I wish it wasn't that way.

There ARE people out there that are afraid to tangle with PG (for example) because they fear retribution against their kids somewhere down the line. There are coaches that do not agree with everything that happens with the larger organizations, but keep their mouths shut for fear of killing the goose that laid the golden egg. There are people in my program that will not state their issues to me for fear of retribution against the son. Bottom line, there is a lot of preaching to the choir that goes on on this board. The posters often support each other as a way of justifying their beliefs. Just hang out with people that think like you and that means you are thinking the right stuff. It is sort of a support group for people that are baseball lovers or think they are baseball lovers. I get that and am OK with that too. That is a good function of the board, but opposing opinions should not be attacked. They should be dissected and discussed. Maybe they have merit.
This board is way more than a support group to find the best hamburger when the masses truck to Jupiter for the next big "can't miss" tournament. It should be a vehicle for analyzing and possibly creating change where change is needed.
I would never allow retribution against any player for any reason. That would be against my beliefs and dishonest. That has NEVER been done! I really don't care who supports us, but it is always appreciated. Ever think it could be based on experience? I am not attacking apposing opinions, just as long as that is what they are (Opinions) When someone turns things into something more than an opinion. Jupiter and other events have changed things... Much for the better IMO. It is a great event, it is not a "Can't Miss" event! That actually soundws a bit sarcastic, but once again I have a tendency to be paranoid.

I think kids are playing too much baseball and not enough other sports and people are led to believe that that is essential to the success. I think travel ball and endless tournaments are OK if you are a shortstop, but hell on pitchers. And we need them to play games. I think that young people are being pressured, even if not intended, to specialize. I do not think this is creating better athletes. I am not even certain it is creating better baseball players.
I have always been supportive of playing other sports. Have mentioned that here many times. We have been around the block and understand the problems associated with being a pitcher. I would never tell anyone what they should do regarding playing not playing. The verdict is still out regarding specialization. If a young athlete enjoys playing 3 sports, then play 3 sports.

I think college baseball has less to do with coaching than ever and more to do with recruiting and this has trickled down to community colleges and now high schools. And it is a weekly ritual at the youth level. The better kids services are in demand and the recruiting animal starts there. "Where is that kid going to go" has replaced discussions about the art of leading off a base. Coaches used to be from the pool of educators, trained educators, and now the way to stay in coaching is to hopefully latch on as a volunteer assistant somewhere and work your way up. No training in how to deal with people or how people actually learn, no mentoring, just a continuation of..."we need better kids if we want to compete." High school coaching has declined because a guy can make triple the money coaching a travel team on the weekend for a guy with money to pay for him. As a result, good, but untrained people never get any mentoring or training other than to play the right kids and collect a check. Baseball has opened the door for non-teachers to climb the ladder and this can cause problems with the intricacies of coaching and teaching and dealing with youth. Baseball is not that easy. That is probably one of the reasons we all love it so much.
I think the best college coaches are good at recruiting and also good at coaching. It is the NCAA that sometimes limits the real good ones from sticking out even more. Coaches are like players... Some are much better than others. Baseball opened the doors for non teachers from the day the game was invented. To think teachers are the best coaches just because there teachers... I can't agree with! Many of the best I've ever seen with dealing with people were not teachers. While I greatly admire educators, I've seen some who lack badly when it comes to dealing with people. I bet you have too!

I think showcases make their money off the participants that have the least chance of playing at the next level. They coddle to the top players that do not need any assistance to give the appearance that the top player got where he is by the help of whatever organization is sponsoring whatever event it is and often times these players are not charged. Most coaches in the stands are probably thinking of where their dinner is going to be rather than watching the participants.
All anyone has to do is visit our website to get our view... Here is what is printed there... Perfect Game does not take any credit for the many outstanding players who get selected in the draft or the even larger number that go on to play college baseball. All we do is provide a place for talented players to be identified, watch them closely and evaluate them as they compete with and against the best competition possible. Then we let the entire baseball world know about those players. It is the draft and college recruiting that by far counts the most. We identify the players, give our opinions and then Major League scouts and college coaches form their opinions. It is their opinion that means everything. They have to place a value on the players they are most interested in. Of course, it does make us feel good that the majority of the time college recruiters and MLB scouts agree, for the most part, with our opinions about players. This does come after we talk about all the draft picks and such, but it explains things. I can't tell you what coaches in the stands are thinking, but I know the best coaches and best scouts are paying close attention.

It is all business 101 to many adults whose life is in the business world. Baseball is a smaller version of any other American business. It is my money and I can spend it the way I want. Buyer beware. Create the atmosphere where the consumer thinks he needs our product. All basic stuff. Basically sell a product. Decisions are clouded when money is involved. Are any of the big movers and shakers in the youth baseball world non-profit? Let's try that approach maybe.
I am all for Buyer Beware. I'd love to be non profit. We are talking to potential sponsors to make our individual events no cost. In the meantime, certain things are impossible, like meeting a gigantic payroll. Be assured that we are actively involved in many projects where we donate both money and time to help youth baseball and young players. If it weren't for the NCAA rules, we would help anyone who truly needed help. We have a long history of helping amateur baseball.

I strongly believe there needs to be a vehicle to educate young families about certain realities of our sport. And that education should be given by someone that does not want any money from you. We do need a forum to analyze the explosion that has taken place in youth baseball. What has been good? What has been bad?
Showcases: Good? and bad? Rankings, written reports, AFLAC games, invitations to select events, jumping from team to team, abuse of young arms, what skills are necessary to advance, do college coaches really care about my ranking in the latest top player list, What is good about all this stuff? And what is...not so good?
I try hard to help educate people right here on this site. Very seldom will you see any promotion of PG coming from me on this site. I actually want to help and if you ever have the time to check over the thousands of posts I've made here, you'll find the vast majority are not about PG but about trying to help people. I never even wanted an ad on this site. Showcases: Good? Bad? My answer is BOTH! Rankings? that is what we do and they have become very important to many colleges and people in scouting. They simply identify what we think are the top players. Those lists are not based on who attends our events. They're based on what we see and we spend a small fortune scouting all over the country with no one paying the bills but us. Absolutely no politics or business related decisions ever. written reports? Guess that just becomes natural. AFLAC games? The single greatest promotion of high school baseball in history! High school coaches coaching the best players in the country on National Television and all the procedes go to finding a cure for pediatric cancer! How in the world could that ever be considered anything except a great thing? Invitations to select events? What is wrong with that? We only want the very best at certain events we do. Other events are not quite as closed. Some events are open and sometimes we find some great talent that way. Jumping from team to team? I do not like that either. abuse of young arms? honestly (I'm sure this doesn't include you) but we see this as a major prroblem in high school season. We also see this being a problem at the summer tournaments and it makes us mad. We have never abused an arm in 16 years as Perfect Game. In fact, we try to be too safe rather than sorry. What skills are neccesary to advance? This depends on where the advancement is. Tools are important, makeup is important, academics is important. This site is full of good information about that. Do college coaches really care about my ranking in the latest top player list? It has been extremely important to many of the top colleges in America. The feedback we get is unbelievable. Do you think they are not interested in what we might think? We have a very good track record of identifying players. There are MLB Scouting Directors that study our lists. Why would a "good" college coacyh not look at our lists when our lists have proven to be very accurate. Are they not looking for the best players? If someone is a college coach this would be a no brainer. That said, it doesn't mean that they will agree with our assessment. However, the record shows that for the most part they actually do. how about my teams ranking in the nationwide rankings for 12 year olds? This is not very important, but very harmless IMO. I don't even think it is worth worrying about..

I think a lot of readers on this board are only getting one side of the story. Opposing view points are good. Sometimes we need a jolt to get off our butts and make a change.
Opposing viewpoints are good. I don't need a jolt to get off my butt and make a change. These are all changes and I think the old timers need to open up their minds. An open mind is a wonderful thing. It is how things get better. BTW, I'm pretty sure I'm older than you.

I could go on and on and I am probably making no sense. But money and baseball are a scary couple. I don't care what you tell me. All you business experts and do-gooders. Money matters and people need some information to help make good decisions about their money. We need a consumer protection component to baseball. That is what I believe. Buyer beware is not the way to go about this.
I would be all for a consumer protection rating. People do need "honest" information. People do need to understand marketing plays a part in all this. People need to understand that not everyone is going to get a scholarship or get drafted because they attend a certain event.

We need some certification for coaches. We need some consumer ratings for larger organizations. We need some forums to discuss safely the downs and the ups to all this stuff. That is all I am trying to say.

The internet makes it easy to promote an agenda with no regulation. If I had a 10 year old that was shaving and dunking a basketball and I knew nothing about what I should do with this lad and I went online, I can't tell the good advice from the bad. It all looks good if your website looks good and you get the right testimonials and spew a few stats. Who is helping these people? And all areas of the country are not the same. Where I live might have different issues than other areas. Some have got to be the same.

I just think there needs to be lots of questioning and discussing the merits of all these things and part of the discussion should be...do we really need this? Is this an improvement on what we used to have (like the cell phone) or is this setting us back (increase in rotator cuff injuries among youth.) We can certainly not stop the march of progress. But we can question it.
Coach I could give you thousands of examples proving that this is a BIG improvement over the old days. I understand that the good and the bad can be confused. The testimonials we could post would be in the 10s of thousands yet we only use a few on our site. Our history has been released by an indepensent author. His main objective was to compare all the various opportunities for young players and he ended up writing pretty much the whole book and about one thing after doing a great ammount of research. It is titled Perfect Game USA. Somehow, I doubt if you will be purchasing a copy, but if so, it might answer many questions. BTW, it is not our book, we don't make any money off it, in fact I even had to pay for a copy.

Sorry for rambling. Sorry if I offended anyone beyond the normal ruffling of feathers. I just feel strongly about baseball and I am not certain that every new thing is good.

I have no problem with the way you feel even though I might not agree with all. Coach, I really care, just like you do. I really do hope we can meet some day. And my offer is still on!
TRhitTRhit10,000+ posts
Some business logic here:

We have a travel team , as well as running two showcases and a 14 team tournament in Rhode Island

Our travel team attends two PG Qualifiers in the Northeast---our aim is to get our players as much exposure as we can--- on the qualifier dates we could be at other events with the same or similar entry fee---but for business it makes sense---the fee is the same--travel is mostly easier for all concerned--the facility they use has four turf fields so rainouts are minimal--and finally they have more pro and college scouts at their events. we do not have to attend both events--we simply do it because we think it is best for the players in terms of exposure---a number of our players get scholarships because of this

Our kids want to play competitive baseball every weekend from mid August to late October so why not put them where they get the best exposure


Just a simple business approach !!!
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
TR brings up good points, the qualifiers are very well attended, I forgot about that, though eveything relative as to son's time of years ago, there were many scouts at the PG qualifiers he attended.
I don't think that anyone here will argue the value of good tournaments that take place (not just PG) every season. As far as showcases vs. tournaments there is no substitute for playing!

I have no dog in this fight, I am also glad that I am over those days, though I do miss them, great times and glad that I am still able to attend PG tournie every year in Jupiter. BTW, as I posted once before, things have changed in that tournie and I do feel for the better. I like how the pools include weaker teams against stronger teams, so that all players get exposure, one of the reasons why players attend.

There have been some great points made here, I don't agree with everyone of them, but I enjoy the ability to be able to read opinions about the pros and cons of the direction that youth bb is headed. I do not agree, never have never will with the value of expensive year round travel teams, showcases for the 11-14 year old player. If this is something that you can afford to do with your players do it, but understand, that IMO, this is NOT going to mean that you will someday be a HS varsity player, obtain a college scholarship for baseball or play at the professional game. If your son is a pitcher, all the more reason NOT to do this on a year round basis.
The same may be true for HS and lot depends on where you reside. I may be an Old Timer, but do know that back in son's HS days there were elite travel teams that played each summer against the best in the country, Dulin Dodgers, Warhawks, Orlando Scorpions, FL renegades,Florida Pokers, Florida Bombers, all of the East Cobb teams, Dallas Tigers (did I get that right), just to name a few. Tempting, but only one summer did son play for an elite travel team where it counted, senior summer. Before that I saw no value in spending 3000 for 2 months of baseball.
I see two people here who care about our kids and care about baseball and wanting them to be noticed for their efforts, just with differnt philosophies, but obviously both care very much about what they are doing and deeply commited. There is no right or wrong way, even if met with criticism.

Why do I try to be involved? I care for the player whose family feels that they have to give up because of limited funds, who feel guilty because they are not doing enough for their sons to be more competitive. That's why we lose many. Just remember, all of the showcases, tournaments, lessons, college camps will never replace talent, ability, heart and willingness to work hard to improve yourself. Make a plan, make the plan based on your son's athletic ability and academic achievements, do what is right for HIM, not what worked for my son, or anyone elses. They are all unique players most likely going to go in all different directions. Follow the recruiting timeline, do your homework, work on conditioning and proper mechanics, work on whatever that position he plays needs to get better, spend only what you can afford, things will work out and fall into place and you will look back and someday understand what is important and what is not important and be able to draw your own conclusions. Smile

JMO.
Last edited by TPM
F FormerObserver1,000+ posts
quote:
Have you ever met the people involved in these "business ventures"? I think that if you could visit us for a day, you might change your mind about certain things. At least regarding what we do and why we do it. If you really care and want to find out, we will pay for your trip to Iowa. We will even pay you for your time. You might even enjoy the trip and for sure you will know much more about us. Then you can say whatever you think to whoever you think it will help and you will have a first hand account.


tired of this, I'd take the man up on his offer.............

Underneath all this logic is the recurring debates
of high school baseball versus select and the "if they are charging money, it must be bad."

There are bad showcase organizations that will take your money.

There are bad high school coaches.

Most of us know, though, that both high school and select are process that fill a role in the development of ballplayers.

I could write a post with a negative tone about high school baseball and high school coaches and it would sound like I'm tired of it too.

I found the transition in and out of select, high school, showcases, college, and now the minor leagues to be fascinating and all were necessary elements.

There is no place better to see that transition in effect than the Jupiter tournaments that are held in the late fall each year.

tired of this's soliloquy really does a good job of pointing out the frenzy that is present in the initial stages of the player development process.

But, the regulatory and certification processes proposed would probably work just about as well of any other govermental processes and regulations that you can think of.

Do you have any other suggestions for change, tired of this?

I'm not really surprised to see that perspective from a high school baseball coach.

What'd I'd really like to hear the coach's perspective after his visit with Perfect Game, and he has a son that has been through the transition.

Jerry Ford was not kidding.

Take him up on the offer.
Last edited by FormerObserver
fillsfanfillsfan1,000+ posts
Based on the testimonies of a couple of people with close ties, Tired of This seems to be an excellent HS coach and an advocate for his players. I wish my son played for him.
That being said his well written posts have an overtone of sour grapes to me. As travel teams and travel tournaments have grown over the past 5-10 years HS baseball has suffered. Scouts are going to less games, legion ball is losing players every year and at some schools, at least in our area, HS ball is a warm up for summer and fall travel. So the last thing a HS coach wants to hear about from his players are their travel teams.

I don't mean to trivialize what TOT says because I do agree with a lot of what he says. I do believe some programs are not doing the right thing for all of their kids. But I also feel that, like others have said, the market will shake out over the next few years and the "money grabbers" will not last as the word gets out.

I also think that Perfect Game (especially PGStaff) and Coach TOT have a lot more in common than it appears. IMO PG is doing on a national scale what Tired is doing on a local, one HS scale. They both love the game, are passionate about what they are doing, and they both have the players interests at the forefront of their "businesses".

I hope you two do get together, it could only help us lambs!! Big Grin
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
fillsfan some good points but here's the flip side the way I see it.

You can go to some travel team sites, showcase sites, etc. and there's a section where they list players that have played with them at some point, their college commitment or team they signed with.

Most likely this player may have played for them one weekend, one pitch or one at bat and the manager or owner made some money from that as well. You might get the impression that they played an important part in their success.

Looks good, looks impressive, I think my son should join that team.

So who really should get the credit for the player's success, the travel team manager or the HS coach who spent 4 seasons with that player? I don't blame some coaches for sour grapes. Not at all.

Just as we market our players, this is how business owners market their businesses.

I think that this may be what some of this is about.
There are some people who make money and take credit, there are many who take nothing but do all the work and get no credit, nor do they want it.

I recently saw on a team site a player listed as a drafted player, but drafted out of college, that player hadn't played with that team for THREE YEARS.

Now that's just not truth in advertising!

BTW, maybe true that less coaches are coming to HS games, but I never thought that college coaches went to games unless local anyway. How can they go watch when they are in their season. In spring, scouts are out in full force at HS games.
Last edited by TPM
N ncball100+ posts
TPM- We list our alumni on our site that move on to the D1 and pro level. We are very proud of them and hope we were a small part of their development. The caveat is that the player had to play a full season with us. It bothers me when teams list players who might have played a weekend for them. My thought is we couldn't possibly have helped in the development of that player and we certainly shouldn't take any credit for "borrowing" a player.

Who deserves the credit? The player deserves a good amount of it for his talent and hard work. The parents deserve most of the credit for giving the player the genetics as well as a ride to the ball park! I describe our role as a polisher of diamonds.
fillsfanfillsfan1,000+ posts
TPM, I agree that a team or organization should not take credit for a college signing if the kid only played one tournament for that team. I would consider them one of the money grabbers and hope they don't last long.

ncball's one year policy seems logical as long as the kid played during his recruiting year or years. If he hasn't played since he was 14 I don't think he should be listed.

The thing with most HS schools in this area is that I don't think they have much influence in the recruiting process so a player with talent needs the help of a legit travel program.
TO tired of this10+ posts
Lots of great posts and discussions. It is good that we all got our blood flowing for awhile. I plan to address a few of the comments in the thread when I get a block of time when I can effectively collect my thoughts. Sort of Christmas overload at my house right now and I have quite a long list of jobs to get done, so I hope that later today or tomorrow morning I can sneak a few minutes away to respond. Please don't take my tardiness as lack of respect for what you have written.
B BobbleheadDoll5,000+ posts
In our area HS don't play any part in recruiting or pro ball. All the exposure is from travel teams. In our case I didn't rely on the travel teams coaches for the recruiting process. We did get lots of interest from the exposure provided by them and some offers. The problem was we were after warm climate colleges so we took it upon ourselves to initiate the contact. We did use video of games to create the interest so I had no problem with them taking credit.
TPM the reason elite travel teams are important is because they allow you to face better competition amd to test yourself against non local teams. To me this helps you gain confidence that you can compete. Our teams even allowed you to face college and ex pro players so thst when you went to college you were confident that you could compete at the highest level.
FungoFungoHighly Regarded and Beloved Old Timer
quote:
In our area HS don't play any part in recruiting or pro ball.


That's what I thought until the first day of practice when my son was a senior in high school. Pro scouts came out of the woodwork. There were 12 pro scouts there the first day of high school PRACTICE and I had no idea they were going to be there.
ClevelandDadClevelandDadHSBBWeb Administrator
I think all the different forms of baseball are valuable for different reasons. I would never try and argue that chocolate is better than vanilla, for instance (well...maybe chocolate is a little better than vanilla Big Grin ).

Seriously, there is rec league, house league, all-stars, little league, minor leagues, mighty mites, ponies, senior leagues, babe ruth, connie mack, micky mantle, traveling teams, tournamnent teams, showcase teams, elite teams, select teams, wood bat teams, fall leagues, freshman teams, junior varsity teams, varsity teams. I am sure I have forgotten a few. Some cost more than others indeed. Some are harder to try out for and make the team than others. Some are created behind the scenes. Some are created in plain view. Some (if not all) have political elements arguing for one team configuration over another. All this and more contributes to producing a ball player.

Showcasing for the sake of showcasing is not really baseball imho. Baseball is trying to win a 9-inning game with the hand you are dealt. Making the most of it. On the other hand, I think players who have the ambition to play past high school need proper exposure to continue those dreams. It is bad advice to leave it up to chance. There is no reason there cannot be a proper balance between these needs.

One other thing to keep in mind, baseball circumstances vary greatly across the country. I am positive that at some high schools like "tired of this" coaches, getting exposure for the participants at high school games is common experience. If I was a scout, I would like to scout in California too. In April near Lake Erie, there are no scouts out watching. Sometimes they'll show up for a state championship game in June but unless you are one of those lucky teams forget it. If a kid desires to play where it is warm, it is a real challenge to pull that off. Somehow they need exposure in the locations they desire to play. Showcases provide that opportunity as well as local events such as the Stanford Camp.

Coach, being the curious type, I searched on your other alias 60'6" and noticed your other main contribution was commentary directed at the Stanford Camp. I have considered your criticisms about how money has influenced the game. I know of one story here on the high school baseball web about how a family living in Korea got their son recruited at a premier D3 college in Texas via exposure gained at the camp. I am curious if your opinions would differ at all if exposure at your program were much harder to come by.
C CaBB1,000+ posts
Fungo- agreed about high school ball- for our team the last few years we had scouts and college coaches at most games. 1st scrimmage of the year I wanted to take parent pictures in the stands to document our senior year. There were more scouts than parents so I didn't take the picture. I realize not all high schools are like this but I am so thankful son was at that school.

Scouts were there because we had a couple of high profile players on team. Our high school coaches were incredible and helped our kids alot to get recruited.

Also, we NEVER paid our summer team coaches as they were retired MLB with kids on the team. We traveled together for years and they always paid their way and never put their sons before the other players. I'm sure they lost money on all those summers but we sure had fun!

We were really fortunate to have incredible high school and travel ball coaches.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
Wait, I didn't say I had any issue with travel teams in HS other than how some take credit where credit may not be due.

As far as travel teams in HS, no doubt they play an integral part in the recruiting process. Those are the teams that take players to venues where they get exposure, many HS coaches cannot do. Many do not run travel teams for conflict of interest. Many of these travel teams are profit organizations. That is somewhat where the travel teams of today have replaced the travel teams when son played in HS.

The coaches that recruited son during that summer period relied on recommendations from the coaches that they saw the player with, that's a given, I understand that. Scouts rely on HS coaches during spring for recommendations and information. There are a lot of people who play an important role in the process, the biggest role to the player and his parents of course. My son's HS coach played an integral part of the process, the most important part, IMO, stressing academics above anything else, coming to class everyday and watching him mature as a player in 4 years and sometimes putting up with 18-20 boys at one time whose hormones are out of control. HS coaches play an important role in the maturing process, and as Fungo stated a big process in his draft year with speaking with scouts and notifying them all when son was pitching. Don't ever say HS coach pla no part at all.

Here in FL we have some programs where they regularly turn out top HS draft players. You rarely will see much in print about them except during HS season, I can't name them, but I can name the travel teams that they played for (as listed on their websites), and what top events they played at in the country (as listed on their websites). Coaches and scouts regularly visit these schools because of their reputation for what they produce, yet the travel coach making $$ has them listed on their site, nothing about where they played in HS.

I find that rather odd.
Last edited by TPM
F FormerObserver1,000+ posts
One of the transitional differences is that, for the first time, players generally have to earn their way onto a high school team.

That is one of the reasons why scouts attend high school games.

But, they don't need to attend a high school game searching for talent.

They usually read the local paper first.

Then, they go to the games where players that are listed in the "area leaders" section are playing.
B BobbleheadDoll5,000+ posts
The Greatlakes area is possibly the worst scouted area in North America. We played several Cleveland area teams and never saw a radar gun. This was especially true with the advent of high prophile events. Even the Connie Mack NY qualifier had very few scouts.
Our HS in our area never had a scout even though we had guys play college and pro ball. These players were followed in their elite teams. At one time we would get up to 50 scouts at an elite tournament. The NABF WS was held at our stadium a few years ago and they had a 10 year commitment to host it. There were scouts everywhere. Due to some political issues here locally the host lost his right to play at the stadium.
The most scouts I ever saw was at Long Island. They claimed approx 150 scouts and we got good response from the scouts.
Every area is different but the days of scouts attending local tournaments is long gone. My son had an offer to play for a HS in Georgia but would not be able to graduate with his friends even though he had all the credits he needed. I know the exposure would have been much better but he chose to graduate with his friends. Our HS rules were very tough on BB. 4 innings max no head 1st sliding and several other rules thyat made it less exciting to him. A typical game he would strike out a min of 10 batters over 4 innings and I never used those clips because I though they were less impressive even though some of those batters were very good.
It would be nice to live in Cal. We just had our 1st big dump of snow. My son actually is enjoying it because he knows he will be back at college on the 30th.
B BobbleheadDoll5,000+ posts
Most but not all our elite teams are non profit and the book are open for parents to view. Recently the elite teams are struggling to fill rosters but when my son played some teams had over 100 players trying out for 23 positions. HS also started to struggle to find great players. Typically there were bout 6 top players on a HS varsity team so the depth wasn't there. Some games were pathetic. Freshman year was the best year for HS. After that it got worse to the point he didn't play his last year. In elite ball he got to face solid competition including a LA State championship team. They played travel ball as an elite team and used to make a trip here once a year. 3 of their player played for LSU. We travelled all over the US and even to Charleston which was part of the reason he wanted to go there.
This is not to argue that US HS are not great for exposure but we had no exposure in HS. The coach was not involved at all and even the travel coaches were kept out of the loop. I would think some players might even have some concerns about what a coach might say.
Last edited by BobbleheadDoll
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
Scouts DO go to high school games. However, let’s examine how the system works. If anyone thinks things work differently than what I’n about to say, please let us know.

College coaches, are mostly wrapped up during their season which for most everyone also happens to be the same time as the high school season. Some high school coaches are respected much more than others when it comes to reliable information. Those select HS coaches can in fact recommend a player and have that turn out to cause serious interest in one of the HS coaches players. We get many recommendations from high school coaches, some turn out to be accurate others are so far off base it is simply a waste of time.

College coaches , more and more, are making their decisions regarding recruiting long before a player plays his senior year. At least when it comes to the major colleges. Are we to believe that these players found before their senior year were discovered during the college season during the players sophomore and junior high school seasons? Truth is that college coaches do most of their recruiting work and scouting during the summer and into the fall! Anyone who thinks differently, please explain!

Scouts, on the other hand, attend high school games based on their “Follow” list. They are looking at “seniors” who are on their follow list because of the upcoming draft. The upcoming draft each year in June is the majoe emphasis for all 30 MLB scouting departments. They also attend many college games to watch college players who are on their follow lists and who are eligible for that year’s draft. That said, while they are watching the players on their follow list they might see an underclassman (college or high school) who impresses them. Those players become part of the following year’s follow list. In other words they aren’t likely to attend another game to see that underclassman that year unless that underclassman is in another game with a draft eligible follow. Or unless that underclassman has a teammate who is on the follow list. If a player on the follow list is recognized as a potential earlier round pick, the club will send in a crosschecker. If the player is recognized as being a potential first/second round guy, the clubs Scouting Director will make a trip or sometimes several trips to see that player (college or high school player) If two high school teams are playing and neither has a “follow” it is highly unlikely there will be any scouts in attendance at that game. This does not matter if it is Maine, North Dakota, Florida, Texas or California. After all, all the scouts are busy working their “follow” list. They can’t be in two places at the same time.

Fungo mentioned 12 scouts at his son’s first high school practice during his senior year. The only reason that could happen is because there had to be someone on a lot of follow lists, in this case it was his son who was later drafted in an early round. My question is… How did Fungo’s son get on so many follow lists? Did this happen due to then spotting him at earlier high school games? Or did it happen more because of what took place during the summer?

This is really a very simple thing to figure out if one thinks clearly about it. Nearly all players that are placed on a follow list had to first be discovered somewhere. Most are discovered during the summer. However some are discovered because of who they played with or against. If you were a fulltime scout would you likely find more potential “follows” at an event where there could be a hundred potential follows… Or at a high school game where in all likelihood there will be one potential follow?

There is a process, it goes like this… First a player must be identified by someone who is reliable, honest and knowledgeable. After that the player needs to be seen by the scout or college recruiter. Then if that player creates serious interest he will be seen again and maybe again until the scout or college recruiter feels satisfied enough to place a value on that player. Then the process continues with crosschecker and maybe scouting director if warranted. Sometimes a college recruiter will trust another judgement so much that some steps are eliminated. Never will a MLB club draft a player without seeing that player at least a few times. If that player has first half of the draft projection, the MLB club will have seen him several times, done a home visit, done signability, etc., in addition to just watching him play and turn in a report.

Every once in awhile a player does pop up during his senior high school season, a player who was previously unknown. This almost always happens, when it does happen, with a pitcher who has all of a sudden lit up the radar gun.

People need to understand, MLB area scouts cover a very large number of players within his territory. They must have many contacts to get the job done. If they have 20-50 kids that they want to follow, that is where they will be spending most of their time. Typically there will be maybe 5-10 on their list that will take up a large portion of their time. That is how it works, if a player is not on the follow list it is still possible to create interest, but it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that the odds are slim. It is completely possible that a team could play its entire high school schedule without seeing a college recruiter or a scout. There have been many great high school players who received very little interest from Major Colleges and MLB Scouts. However, most of the top prospects were found during the summer time and even the fall long before their senior high school season. Even most of those identified as underclassmen during the high school season end up creating national attention during the summer!

And YES with capital letters… Scouts and college recruiters love to see those identified players compete against the best possible competition.

One more thing… Not to be redundant… The lists are a form of identification. Last year over 200 players were on the 8 college world series rosters who had attended a certain companies events and were listed in that companies rankings. How stupid would a college coach have to be to not pay attention to that list? Don’t they want to know who the best players are? Yes, there are always some kids who will be missed, but that doesn’t mean the list is not valuable. I can’t understand how anyone could think differently. BTW, the vast majority of those subscribed (paying for the information) are college coaches and professional scouts. What if you were a MLB fulltime scout and your scouting director sees that we have a player ranked among the top 50 in the country and he calls you up about that player and you don’t know who he is? There is no way we could possibly have a player ranked that high if he is not a good prospect. Maybe one of the best in that scouts territory. It is way too important, to take a chance on missing someone. We know what happens when we all of a sudden rank someone real high. Sometimes those players don’t even know they’re ranked that high, but those who do know understand when they start seeing immediate attention. I can say, with all certainty, these lists are followed very closely by many decision makers. That wouldn’t happen unless those lists had proven to be fairly accurate!

Local newspapers? Again some common sense… Most scouts are on the road continually during the spring, right up until the draft. Many scouts would have an area that could have well over 200 local newspapers. Need anything else be said? Not saying that some scouts don’t read newspapers, but even if they did it would be the paper where one of their “follows” is from. Newspaper stats don’t often create a lot of scouting interest. There have been many all conference, all district, etc. names that were never followed as college or professional prospects.

I'm sure I've forgotten to mention a few important things here or even explained things as clearly as possible, but that is all I got for now.
Last edited by PGStaff
RJMRJMHSBaseballWeb member since 2007
quote:
As travel teams and travel tournaments have grown over the past 5-10 years HS baseball has suffered. Scouts are going to less games, legion ball is losing players every year and at some schools, at least in our area, HS ball is a warm up for summer and fall travel. So the last thing a HS coach wants to hear about from his players are their travel teams.
I think my son's (and your son's) travel teams of fifteen year olds could beat most Legion teams in our area. When my son was 14U the local Junior Legion team wouldn't play us in a doubleheader. The challenge was made after the coach trashed our program's talent and called it a waste of time and money. The Junior Legion coach tries to tell parents his team is the avenue to the high school varsity. It's no longer true. The last three sophs to play varsity played travel.

There was a Legion meeting at the end of the summer regarding the parade of players leaving Junior Legion and Legion for travel. When I was scouting the Junior Legion (14/15's) league's playoffs for potential 16U pitching talent I only saw one kid who impressed me.

I feel very fortunate my son's high school coach isn't anti-travel. He'll tell anyone who will listen go play the best competition possible. He played college and pro ball.
SS SOUTHPAW SON10+ posts
reading some of these posts, I quess my son is lucky.

My sons HS coach actually comes to a few of his travel games to watch him pitch. He also will go to a few of my sons ( and other pitchers) pitching lessons so he can chat with the pitching coach and make sure they both are emphasising and working on the same areas. He has been doing this since son was a freshman and on JV (now a senior)
Last edited by SOUTHPAW SON
L lodi14100+ posts
sothpaws_dad, we just returned from the Perfect Game Youth program. Orlando was great to say the least75-85 every day. No rain either.
As far as the program, I would give it a B-. Keeping in mind that this was their 1st shot at this. The program rolled along very well.No big delays or anything like that. Program was mostly instuction. The staff was 1st rate. Only speaking for the 13yo group,there were many things that were covered that I had not seen at any camps. The staff treated the kids just like they were professionals. I had never seen infield taken with multiple balls before. Pretty neat. The kids took to it like they had been doing it there whole careers.All the kids in my sons age group were very talented. Many big travel programs were represented there.There were some gliches,no Albert,no awards,no skills challenge.Those things didnt really matter to my son at all he said.One thing that I really noticed right off the bat was that the kids from the warm weather states were much sharper right off the bat.But by the same token the kids from the cold weather states arms looked better.Games were very competitive also.Overall I would recommend this program.
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