PG Pitching Rules

We have had some forfeits due to ineligible player/pitcher based on PitchSmart rules.

We have since decided to simply remove the pitcher as the NFHS rules state.  Our objective is to eliminate abuse not to punish the entire team with a forfeit.

Perhaps you should explain what happened....the Pitch smart rules are pretty clear.

PitchSmart rules are clear. However there is no penalty listed.

We had two games where teams violated either single game pitch counts or recovery times.  Those games resulted in a forfeit. One of those games was forfeited when a pitcher went one pitch over the limit.  

We have since decided to use the federation rule, rather than forfeit games.  It seems that is the fairest way to deal with it while still protecting arms.  

PG,

  Who counts the pitches at PG tournaments as it pertains to the pitching limits?

Enforcement of rules like this is always a fine line. If you're too strict, you end up punishing honest mistakes severely and if too lax, you allow abuse. It seems if the penalty is strictly defined as simple correction, it incentivizes coaches to push it - worst that happens is they replace the pitcher and move on. It's a risk without penalty. Having said that, if a coach wants to cheat like this, he'll pay his price through reputation. You have to be able to trust the coaching community to some level or none of this works, so...

PG,

Perhaps this will give you some ideas. In anticipation of Ca going to pitch counts for HS as other states have, and using the PitchSmart guidelines, I created a way to inform our coaches who was and wasn’t eligible to pitch prior to filling out the lineup or putting a pitcher on the bump during a game.

I print this report for the coaches and can generate it at any time during a game. Please see the attachment.

It lists every player on the roster who has pitched, the # of IPs in their last outing, how many pitches they threw in that outing, the day and date of it, the rest required by the guidelines, and the next day and date they’re eligible to pitch again. If they can pitch the next legal outing is printed in green(go) and if they can’t it’s printed in red(stop).

Will that stop every possible infraction? Of course not. But it is information and if used will certainly stop a lot of infractions.

We keep pitch counts for every pitcher. We have just recently developed an automatically produced chart that has pitch counts and required off days. These charts will be made available for everyone to see.

Pitch count disputes are handled immediately following each game. We will be using a card that coaches need to sign off on after each game.  If there are no disputes those pitch counts for each pitcher are entered into the pitch charts.

PGStaff posted:

PitchSmart rules are clear. However there is no penalty listed.

We had two games where teams violated either single game pitch counts or recovery times.  Those games resulted in a forfeit. One of those games was forfeited when a pitcher went one pitch over the limit.  

We have since decided to use the federation rule, rather than forfeit games.  It seems that is the fairest way to deal with it while still protecting arms.  

 

Jerry, I commend you for voluntarily taking on this extra effort and headache. For years all we've heard is that pitch counts are too difficult, messy and expensive to administer in travel team tournaments. PG is leading the way and proving that it can be done if you have the will. Thank you.

MidAtlanticDad posted:

PGStaff posted:

PitchSmart rules are clear. However there is no penalty listed.

We had two games where teams violated either single game pitch counts or recovery times.  Those games resulted in a forfeit. One of those games was forfeited when a pitcher went one pitch over the limit.  

We have since decided to use the federation rule, rather than forfeit games.  It seems that is the fairest way to deal with it while still protecting arms.  

 

Jerry, I commend you for voluntarily taking on this extra effort and headache. For years all we've heard is that pitch counts are too difficult, messy and expensive to administer in travel team tournaments. PG is leading the way and proving that it can be done if you have the will. Thank you.

To be fair, though, PG can provide a lot of services that the vast majority of tournaments and leagues can not. Your local Babe Ruth league just doesn't have the staff that PG has, nor the infrastructure in place to do the kind of things PG can do.

roothog66 posted:

To be fair, though, PG can provide a lot of services that the vast majority of tournaments and leagues can not. Your local Babe Ruth league just doesn't have the staff that PG has, nor the infrastructure in place to do the kind of things PG can do.

That’s part of why I created that report. As you know I’ve paid very close attention to the stories where states like yours have gone to pitch counts, and that report seemed like a logical step to take. It makes absolutely no sense to me to have any kind of “issue” when it’s possible to iron things out before the 1^st pitch of the game. There’s no way I can control what other coaches do, but I can sure cover my coaches a$$ and keep him out of as much controversy as possible, and at the same time protect the kids too.

I’m kickin’ around factoring in stress and some other things as well to not just show what the last outing was in pure pitches. FI, a pitcher throwing 25, 20, and 45 for 90 total pitches worked a lot harder than one throwing 15 pitches an inning for 6 innings. Maybe that 1^st pitcher should be rested for 5 days instead of 4, just to be safe.

We only started doing tournaments for the younger age groups recently. The older groups are working out well.  The younger teams are where we see the biggest problems.  There is a real need for pitching rules at those ages.

Our events alone are not enough.  Many other organizations are getting involved.  But it isn't easy and to do it right it adds expense.  So, as ROOTHOG mentioned, many just can't do it right, even if they want to.

We are actually building a app to make everything much easier for us and the teams.

Younger ages are tough.  Rosters are much smaller, parent/coach drive to win the games are much higher and arm health isn't top of mind.

I want to see a test youth game played where 2 strikes is a strikeout and 3 balls is a walk to see how different the game actually is.  (If your a purist, it's ok to roll your eyes)

Go44dad posted:

Younger ages are tough.  Rosters are much smaller, parent/coach drive to win the games are much higher and arm health isn't top of mind.

I want to see a test youth game played where 2 strikes is a strikeout and 3 balls is a walk to see how different the game actually is.  (If your a purist, it's ok to roll your eyes)

All the time my son was in HS, every fall the team would play in a league down at a local JC and 2 strikes was a K and 3 walks a BB. They weren’t doing it for arm health although I’m sure that was a side effect. But for youth ball(12u), I strongly suspect using a ball that was smaller in circumference and lighter in weight would do a lot more for pitcher arm health.

PGStaff posted:

We only started doing tournaments for the younger age groups recently. The older groups are working out well.  The younger teams are where we see the biggest problems.  There is a real need for pitching rules at those ages.

Our events alone are not enough.  Many other organizations are getting involved.  But it isn't easy and to do it right it adds expense.  So, as ROOTHOG mentioned, many just can't do it right, even if they want to.

We are actually building a app to make everything much easier for us and the teams.

The roll out of the pitch smart guidelines in youth baseball was bumpy, but as the mom of a 13 and 7 year old, thank you for sticking with it.

Stats4Gnats posted:

Go44dad posted:

Younger ages are tough.  Rosters are much smaller, parent/coach drive to win the games are much higher and arm health isn't top of mind.

 

I want to see a test youth game played where 2 strikes is a strikeout and 3 balls is a walk to see how different the game actually is.  (If your a purist, it's ok to roll your eyes)

 

All the time my son was in HS, every fall the team would play in a league down at a local JC and 2 strikes was a K and 3 walks a BB. They weren’t doing it for arm health although I’m sure that was a side effect. But for youth ball(12u), I strongly suspect using a ball that was smaller in circumference and lighter in weight would do a lot more for pitcher arm health.

While it may be counterintuitive, the evidence suggests that a lighter ball increases stress on the arm because it allows for faster arm action.

In our local park league we adopted Little League pitch count rules instead of the Cal Ripken rules which allowed a certain amount of innings pitched. We asked coaches to train a parent on each team to use GC instead of a book and it went great. Very few discrepancies. Umpires got coaches to sign pitch count cards aftwr every game.We continue to use pitch count rules through Babe Ruth and also apply them ourselves to the travel tournaments we play in. We play in a USAAA World Series tournament that starts tomorrow. The pitching rules for the tournament are 16 innings total for the 4 day tournament. 3 seed games into double elimination play. Some teams will have to play 5 games on Sunday to win it. There is no cap on the amount of innings a pitcher can throw in 1 day as long as it's under 16 for the whole tournament. It's rediculous.

roothog66 posted:

While it may be counterintuitive, the evidence suggests that a lighter ball increases stress on the arm because it allows for faster arm action.

I’ve heard that too, but after discussing it with a couple of orthos and trainers, a lot depends on the weight, so a small reduction in weight and the benefits should more than make up for any additional stress.

Then there’s the argument of faster arm action creating more stress, which I wholeheartedly believe. If that’s true, why in Hell hasn’t there been some kind of action taken to reduce the work of the harder throwers? Because the number of coaches out there who fill out the lineup cards and worship at the altar of winning is so overwhelming.

Guaranteed games and the perception of its value is a big problem at the younger ages. A lot of coaches and parents enter in to these 4 or more guaranteed game tournaments . Well add another 3 or 4 games  on to that if you make it to the championship. The younger teams rosters can't handle that much baseball over a three day weekend. There are no PO's . You show me a 12u team with a roster big enough to handle that many games in a weekend I'll show you a team that's lucky to make it through the season before a parent mutiny over playing time. Gotta love Sunday ( championship day)  three or more games at the end of the weekend. It's kind of a blur but, I think my sons team played 5 games one Sunday at 10 or 11. It's like watching a reenactment of rocky 2 out there on the baseball diamond. I am of the opinion that anymore than 2 games in a day isn't real baseball. No one is fresh,kids are pushing their bodies to their limits its ceased being baseball and morphed into endurance baseball. Changing coaches and parents perception of value would be difficult but, I believe this  would prevent a lot of injuries especially in the younger age groups.

hueysdad posted:

Gotta love Sunday ( championship day)  three or more games at the end of the weekend. It's kind of a blur but, I think my sons team played 5 games one Sunday at 10 or 11.

Funny you mention that. I'm following a 12U team at Cooperstown today (championship day). The winner and runner-up will both play five 6 inning games today.

hueysdad,

I agree with what you said. But if you really feel that way, why do you let your boy play in those extra games?

Stats4Gnats posted:

roothog66 posted:

While it may be counterintuitive, the evidence suggests that a lighter ball increases stress on the arm because it allows for faster arm action.

 

I’ve heard that too, but after discussing it with a couple of orthos and trainers, a lot depends on the weight, so a small reduction in weight and the benefits should more than make up for any additional stress.

 

Then there’s the argument of faster arm action creating more stress, which I wholeheartedly believe. If that’s true, why in Hell hasn’t there been some kind of action taken to reduce the work of the harder throwers? Because the number of coaches out there who fill out the lineup cards and worship at the altar of winning is so overwhelming.

I'm no sure what benefits a smaller, lighter ball would have.

I'm also not sure I understand your second point. By "reduce the work of the harder throwers, what do you mean?"

roothog66 posted:

I'm no sure what benefits a smaller, lighter ball would have.

Less strain/wear & tear. It takes more effort to propel a sphere weighing 5.25 ounces 50’ than one weighing 4.5 oz..

I'm also not sure I understand your second point. By "reduce the work of the harder throwers, what do you mean?"

Rather than give more opportunities to harder throwers, spread it out among some pitchers who aren’t throwing strawberries through the side of a battleship.

Having been on the blue side of a U14 PG tourney last weekend the one "odd" thing I wish coaches would take their collective heads out of you know where about is - when you know your pitcher has only a few pitches left and you're entering a new inning - go with someone new.  Nothing like 2-5 pitches, then a pitching change to disrupt the "flow" of the game.  One team's pitcher had 2 pitches left - coach says throw strikes. Duh, really. Pitch 1 is a double, pitch 2 a single, and a run.  Now we have a pitching change *and* for one team perhaps a bit of a momentum swing.  Next pitcher comes in and it takes a few batters for the other team to figure him out. Luckily the 1 run didn't "cost" anyone, but it could have. Is there a "CoachSmart" app anywhere? 

That's pitch count baseball.  Welcome.  Expect teams to choose visitors if there is a coin flip, warm up two starting pitchers, turn in line up cards with no positions (if allowed), then choose their starting pitcher based on how many runs they scored in the first.

Also, expect even slower play, as coaches try and limit innings in a game to save pitching.  Expect more aggressive play when up 8-1 to get to the run rule.

That's all programmed into the "coachsmart" app.

If anyone could actually build this coachsmart app I know SEVERAL coaches who could use it.  Could it talk?  Can you load in game situations like down by 2, runners on 1st and second, should I bunt with two outs...maybe the app could reply in a cold computer voice "go-back-to-rec-ball" ? (actually saw this happen a couple weekends ago...it was SAD!)

Go44dad posted:

That's pitch count baseball.  Welcome.  Expect teams to choose visitors if there is a coin flip, warm up two starting pitchers, turn in line up cards with no positions (if allowed), then choose their starting pitcher based on how many runs they scored in the first.

Also, expect even slower play, as coaches try and limit innings in a game to save pitching.  Expect more aggressive play when up 8-1 to get to the run rule.

That's all programmed into the "coachsmart" app.

Yes, there will be adjustments as the game evolves, but it’s all for the better. The best change will come as coaches who have been riding their horses into the ground rather than training them get exposed and pushed out the door.

Actually there are some small advantages in being the visitor.  Maybe the biggest is in a loss when the home team doesn't hit in the last inning.  No doubt, winning by run rule will be even more important.  Then again, that has always been important for saving arms.

The biggest issue we are seeing is that games can sometimes get longer and playing havoc with schedules.  All in all, it is well worth the problems it creates.

PGStaff posted:

Actually there are some small advantages in being the visitor.  Maybe the biggest is in a loss when the home team doesn't hit in the last inning.  No doubt, winning by run rule will be even more important.  Then again, that has always been important for saving arms.

The biggest issue we are seeing is that games can sometimes get longer and playing havoc with schedules.  All in all, it is well worth the problems it creates.

I'm a big supporter of the Pitch Smart guidelines being implemented, as well as the State HS pitch counts going into effect.  Definitely worth it.