Pitch Count

Never assume a high school coach knows everything regardless of his background. My son's high school coach was a D2 position starter. My son said he knew absolutely everything about infield play and hitting. What he knew about pitching would fill a thimble.

If you feel you need to communicate with the coach have evidence 125 pitches could be harmful (ASMI, etc.) Don't bring up the college commitment. That's putting your son above the team. It would be better if your son could communicate with the coach.

One size does not fit all here.  Different folks handle different work loads.  125 for a senior HS pitcher is not excessive if he is pitching only once per week, with proper arm care protocol after a start, and leading up to a start, and provided that this is not every start....typically if a coach needs a pitcher to log that amount of pitches in a game, he will limit the next outing to maybe 75-80....NOT another 100+ outing, and certainly not on 3-4 days rest.

Also, with HS games being 7 innings, I challenge my son with a pitch limit to be very efficient with his pitches (4 pitches either out or on base per batter).  125 pitches through 7 innings is more pitches per batter than you want / or should need.

A lot of varying opinions regarding this, and many threads going on related to pitch counts, and pitcher safety.  I truly believe that fatigue, especially the next outing after a high pitch count, puts a pitcher at a higher risk factor. 

~1% of MLB games last year saw the SP go 120+ pitches.  Exactly 2 involved 130+.

About 43% were 100+.  I think 100 is generally excessive for HS pitchers, but I understand why it happens. 120+ is definitely excessive, though situationally may sometimes be acceptable (senior who's not going to play in college in an important enough game).

How would everyone feel about 123 and then playing 1B the next two days (first appearance back off a shoulder injury, too)?  Or 119 on Wednesday and an inning of relief on Friday?  Saw both of those this year. There's not much incentive for a HS coach to protect his pitchers, which I think is a problem.

Early in the season I believe you have to have a standard pitch count maximum  as a rule.  It's not the most perfect but it is the easiest to enforce.  I think using ASMI pitch count and rest period for a pitcher is a great rule of thumb. 

If the coach is more concerned about winning than your kids arm health then come up with a plan for your son to pull himself out of the game.  Trying to be a hero and sucking it up is a plan for eventual arm failure. 

My son pitched 4 innings/100 pitches today.  I assumed he talked to the coach because a reliever came in the 5th.   One of our pitchers told me he is feeling pain around his elbow.  

MLB teams rarely allow their pitchers to exceed 105 pitches and they are professionals.  High school coaches don't see a problem with throwing a kid 100+ pitches and then putting them in the field the same game.  

Look out for your son because you have their best interest.

I think the only way this will be minimized is coaches get fired or have to forfeit a game.  

When my son was a high school soph he was asked to come from short to pitch with no warm up in twenty-something wind chill. My son told the coach if he pulls him from the game for one hitter to warm up he'll be ready. The coach gave the ball back to the starter and glared at my son. 

At at the next practice my son told his coach if he thinks he might put him in the next inning say something so he can warm up between innings. In this case the starter went from cruising to disaster in one inning. The coach should have brought a warm pitcher from the bench.

His coach was famous for letting starters go too long. He was also known for waiting until the starting pitcher had the barn on fire. My son rarely came in at the start of an inning. It was more likely to be from his position with a couple of runners in scoring position.

Watched an interesting situation unfold at my kids game earlier this week.  Kid was throwing a no hitter going into the 6th inning.  We were the home team.  After the top of the 5th inning he was sitting at 105 pitches.  I was standing along the outfield fence between the dugout and the bullpen.  I could hear the coaches having a pretty intense discussion in the dugout.  Trying to figure out game strategy.  Shortly after that they sent a kid to the bullpen to warm up as our team came up to bat in the bottom of the 5th.  We were up 7-0.  

One of the assistant coaches (who will regularly talk with the few of us standing in this area) came over to us before play started again.  Proceeded to tell us that that was one of the harder decisions they had to make in the last few years.  They decided to pull the starter even though he had the no-hitter going.  He mentioned that both he and the HC came to the conclusion that the kids arm health was more important that a no hitter. 

They were hoping we could get the 3 runs across the plate and end the game so they did not need to use the kid warming up.  Fortunately we did.  

After the game my wife was talking with the coaches.  My wife works in our school district and we are friends outside of baseball with the HC and have known the AC for a while.  I walked over to them and the AC looked at me and basically said, "Im glad we got to the slaughter instead of having to pull the kid".  I actually thanked him for putting the kids health in front of the game and told him not to worry about it as the kid is only a soph and will have plenty of more opportunities for a no hitter.  

After reading all the stuff on pitch count here on the boards Im glad we have the coaches we do.

Mike - what we do after a start looks something like this (variations apply)

Within 1-2 hours of outing (preferably as soon as possible):

• Body blade - gets range of motion which facilitates recovery
• Marc Pro - electrical device that conditions/ facilitates recovery in all the pitching muscles / ligaments, very different device than a TENS unit

Day 1 after outing:

Body blade, light throwing (if feels like it...optional), Marc Pro, rebounder, sprints

Day 2 after outing:

Decelerator muscles band work, Marc Pro, flat ground throwing to 120', 

Day 3 after outing:

Flat ground throwing to 120', Marc Pro, body blade, sprints

Day 4 after outing:

Body blade, bullpen from a mound, Marc Pro, rebounder

Day 5 (2 days before next start):

Decelerator muscles band work, sprints, catch or no-throw day (optional), Marc Pro

Day 6 (1 day before start):

Body blade, flat ground (60' working on location 15-20), rebounder, Marc Pro

BFS Jr., plays 1B (minimal throwing involved for him in practice), or he will DH.  Coach does NOT use starters in relief.

Mike:

This is for HS, and it works well.  We live in TX, and with the exception of early season tournaments, or having to make-up games due to rainouts, our normal schedule is 2 games per week (Tuesday & Friday).  But I can't imagine it would work any different regardless if the schedule was 3 games per week, or Double headers.

I know that depending on size of school, talent, etc., and just because you will simply find the best arm is also your best SS.....I don't like, or am a fan of a player pitching, and playing SS either the same game, or the next game of a DH. 

Also, keep in mind that since what I sent was a 7 day schedule, some of those are done on the weekend, but not difficult to do.  Also, even though he may not be pitching on a second game day, and playing 1B, part of his pregame, and post game is doing the things listed above.  It really is not hard to accomplish, and does not take up a lot of time.  Also, keep in mind, that in our case, baseball starts at 2PM, and game is not until 7pm for varsity, so a lot of time to accomplish.  Normal practice days on non-game day is 2:30 - 5:30, so again plenty of time.

The big arms are the ones most at risk. Always have been always will. They are going to be on the hill at least once a week. They are going to strike out a lot of guys hence they will have high pitch counts. They many times will be one of the better position players as well. So they are in the field making throws when they are not on the mound making throws. Their ability to get the proper rest and work in between starts is hampered by the fact they also are getting in reps in the cage, bp, at their other position, etc etc. They typically will get the toughest opponent of the week. The biggest game. They will be rode like a rented mule by some of these HS coaches. Many times if these kids are not toast by the time they are Sr in HS they are toast before the can establish themselves at the college level.

Parents should educate themselves. They should educate their kids. Too many times its the parents that have rode this "fame" to the hilt and then only speak out when Johnny starts to have problems. That No No he throwing in the 5th with a high pitch count is Ok because he is "cruising" and you can't take this "opportunity" away from him by pulling him. And then there is the other side of it. When he is getting shelled or doesn't have his best stuff they want him out of the game ASAP.

Let your son stand up for himself. Teach him to stand up for himself. This idea that kids are warriors and they are not going to come out is true if they have not been educated and taught what to do. Some coaches are simply going to do the right thing. Some are simply not because they either don't have a clue or don't care. When your son is in HS you are supposed to do it? So when does he transistion into a person who can? His freshman year in college? You going to call out his college coach? You going to email him? You think that you should have to be the one to do this?

If your son plays long enough he is going to have to learn this. And in life he is going to have to learn it period. Might as well start now while he lives at home and you can assist him with the learning.

Sometimes I wonder, and this is in general, why a HC will stick with a stud who is struggling when at a high pitch count and control and velocity going out the window. Does he really expect the starter will get a "second wind." Pretty sure that never happens. If the next available pitcher is fresh and even 75% of what the ailing starter can do when 100%, then why not put him in to avoid arm injury for the starter. I always ask myself "do you have NOBODY on the bench or what?"

Here is something that I think is not being given enough attention.  With HS games being 7 inning games, and if they are visitors and lose are only throwing 6 innings.  These high pitch count threads as of late have another significant indicator in addition to a potential HC's lack of responsibility -- if you are throwing 120+ pitches in 6-7 innings, you are not throwing enough strikes, or "pitching" very efficiently.  While I agree that strikeout pitchers log more pitches, that by itself would not account for 125 pitches in 6-7 innings.  I think when posters start threads regarding high pitch counts, it is VERY important to provide a pitch count per inning.  My guess is that you will have some decent innings / pitch count, but will have some very high 25+ pitch count innings mixed in, which is not good at all. 

Yes, we need coaches that do not extend pitchers like some have stated, but we also need pitchers who can get hitters out on average in 15 pitches per inning on average.  Being a "better pitcher" may save a HC from having to extend these guys. 

Exactly. Our varsity this year has outscored the opponents 206-22 in 16 games. I have been amazed at how often I see coaches leave guys in to give up 15+ runs in two innings - sometimes less. We played a game last week where I happen to know the other team hadn't played in four days and didn't have another game for another 4 days, yet left their "ace" in the game after he threw 57 pitches in the first. He actually lucked out and threw 5 innings and only ended up throwing 102 pitches total (thanks to - I kid you not - seven F8's in a row). However, how do you justify a second inning when down 11-0 after one inning and 57 pitches?

I am assuming that at most HS varsity baseball games errors happen, but for the most part an occassional error is not going to be the main cause for extremely high pitch counts.  102 through 4 is crazy....32 after one is even worse.  Umpires at HS levels can be a challenge, I do not see very discipline hitting in HS (if anything very undisciplined hitters)....again I'd say, pound the strike zone, work ahead (very important, this expands the zone).  Be curious if we asked in these cases, and received accurate feed back what the answers to the following would be:  % first pitch strikes, and strike / ball ratio....I think this would be most telling.  If those numbers were in-line, then we would have to be talking about A LOT of errors....which I guess could be the case, or that the pitcher is giving up quite a few hits.

Late last month, we played a game out of town. We threw three pitchers who are all going DI, including my son. They had 14, I believe, BB's. The other team had 7 and their starting pitcher is going DI. These are two teams in the top 15 in the State in the 2nd highest classification. I was not there but listening to announcers, and parents and boys upon their return said it was the worst job of calling balls and strikes that any of them had ever seen.

And then to cap it off, our pitcher in bottom of 7th with us leading 6-5 proceeded to walk the bases loaded with two outs. On an 1-0 count, the 3B runner tried to steal home. Pitcher was not pitching from the stretch. Batter didn't swing, Pitcher sped up his delivery. Tag out at home plate for final out of game. Everyone is convinced that had the runner just stayed at 3B, we would have walked in the tying and winning runs.

Wow! I can't even relate to that. Our pitchers as a staff have 161 K's and 30 BB's over 16 games (93.2 innings). I guess I should consider us lucky.

Not sure where they were out of but the game was in Corsicana.  I read an article about Corsicana's next game and the sport writer was still complaining about the non-balk call on a pitcher, pitching from the windup, because he sped up his delivery. LOL

Originally Posted by MikeVT:

Problem is defense behind the pitcher In our case. Errors have extended innings in a lot of games. Pitching efficiency is definitely part of It to though.

Back in the summer of ’08 I got into a very long and drawn out discussion about this very thing, and since then I’ve tracked “Errors Made Behind Pitcher” and “Unnecessary Pitches”. Both are really pretty simple.

The 1^st one counts all the errors, including defensive interference and passed balls made behind a pitcher. The 2^nd is a bit more difficult, but basically I compute the number of pitches that a pitcher wouldn’t have had to throw if there was error-free ball being played behind him. Most of the time it’s because of a fielding error, but occasionally a bad pick-off throw or something else will cause a problem too.

The bottom line is, seeing those things in black and white can often bring a lot of “truth” to a discussion.

2016 first V. start as a freshman coach let him stay long enough to throw 120 pitches in 5 1/3 inn. there were 9 errors committed and @ 1/2 doz. snowball fights.

My frustration has been more on the side of huge strike zones at the HS level. Three balls off the outside corner is a strike. Paint the black on the inside and its a ball. Umpires are so used to everyone working away they shift the zone. Yes pitch counts can get extended for many reasons. But that doesn't change the pitch count. Our strike to ball ratio was much in line with roothogs.I ran across a few umpires with a shoe box zone. But my experience in HS is big strike zones. Much bigger than college level.

Here in my area its the opposite.In fact its done enough that the umps actually have a name for it."Teacupping".An event needs to happen alot for the people involved to name it.

which really affects some hitters who have been taught to "hunt a pitch to drive." My son seems to get into so many 0-2 counts in HS baseball often because umps are giving very wide zones.   

You better believe it. One reason I teach an aggressive approach is if your not you will be in 0-2 1-2 counts all game long. Get up on the plate dare them to come inside. Turn that ball off the plate called a strike into a pitch you can drive. If you get a good pitch be ready to hammer it. The better hitters who have good ball strike recog are penalized at the he level. Your son will welcome the college zone. If others are seeing the opposite it shocks me. In our annual coaches umpire meetings it starts out with the head of umpires saying every year. We got 21 outs to get. Were going to get them as fast as we can. Tell your boys to swing the bat. 

I have to be honest and say I’ve seen some poor umpires at the HSV level, but in general, the umpires do a pretty darn good job. But then again, not every person who can put on the gear is allowed to umpire HSV games here. There are one heck of a lot of umpires certified to call Fr and JV games that aren’t certified to call V games. In fact, since they all come from the same assc, many of our HSV umpires also call college and pro games too.

So if y’all are seeing such rotten umpiring, all I can say is, that’s really too bad, but I do wonder how bad the umpiring really is. How often is asking a pitcher, catcher, or hitter where a pitch was is gonna get an answer that’s accurate? For that matter, how accurate is a coach or fan gonna be when he makes that judgment?

Someone has to tell me again why having technology calling pitches not swung would be such a bad thing. Could it be that it would be a lot harder to pile the blame on someone other than themselves?

Stats,

I don't think anyone that has posted here is talking about pitches within a few inches of the black...those are left called strikes or balls, and not much at the HS level can be expected different.  The calls in question in this thread however are "huge" strike zones, at least for most of the posters....those called strikes don't require "technology" or even good eyesight to determine whether the call was correct.  Maybe your area has incredible umpires, but like you, I have seen many, many HS games, and for the most part, you can come across an umpire crew that have a very accurate zone (1-2" either way), however the more common occurrence is PU that have very large strike zones, both in the horizontal, and vertical plane.  Being the parent of a pitcher, that works great, however I always remind BFS Jr. that at the next level the zone shrinks "big time". 

Let's not derail the OP thread here.  For the most part, I don't think the high pitch counts are due to tiny strike zones.

Originally Posted by Back foot slider:

I don't think anyone that has posted here is talking about pitches within a few inches of the black...those are left called strikes or balls, and not much at the HS level can be expected different.  The calls in question in this thread however are "huge" strike zones, at least for most of the posters....those called strikes don't require "technology" or even good eyesight to determine whether the call was correct.  Maybe your area has incredible umpires, but like you, I have seen many, many HS games, and for the most part, you can come across an umpire crew that have a very accurate zone (1-2" either way), however the more common occurrence is PU that have very large strike zones, both in the horizontal, and vertical plane.  Being the parent of a pitcher, that works great, however I always remind BFS Jr. that at the next level the zone shrinks "big time". 

I’m not saying there aren’t umpires who don’t call pitches very well, but I am saying I have very serious doubts as to how often and how bad that happens. What I’m guessing happens more often than not, is that an umpire will miss a call badly, or miss a close one in a “critical” situation, and that colors whomever is watching’s recollection, especially if it hurts their team or worse, their son.

So in the end an ump might only miss a couple “obvious” calls, but how that will be remembered will be in the perception of the beholder. If your son is pitching and he gives up a critical walk, and one of the balls was an obvious bad call, and they go on to lose the game, the ump will forever be a lousy one in your eyes. If your son is batting in a critical situation and gets rung up on an obvious bad call, again the ump will forever be a lousy one in your eyes.

There’s just nothing that can be done to make all umpires at all levels as good as ML umpires, who we all know aren’t perfect. In this area, if a coach believes an umpire has an attitude problem, all he has to do is let the umpire’s assn know and that ump won’t be scheduled to do games for that coach’s team. If he thinks the ump isn’t very good at calling pitches, again, all he has to do is drop a dime and let the assn know. When there are a few of the same complaints, the assn will start monitoring him, and if necessary drop him from doing V games.

I’m sorry if other official’s assn’s don’t do the same kinds of things, but that’s what makes a horserace. Ya takes the Secretariats and the swayback plugs ready for the glue factory and let the race begin. The only cure is to spend a lot more $$$$ to get better officials.

From an umpire's perspective, the three greatest sources of discontent with strike zones at high school games are:

1) Coaches can't see in vs. out. They have a great view of up vs. down, often better then the umpire has. But their only reference for in vs. out is how the catcher receives the ball, and this is often misleading because they can't see where his mitt started.

2) Coaches and fans don't know the strike zone. If you ask a sampling of coaches and fans to assume a batting stance and then point to the spot on their body that represents the top of their strike zone, nearly everyone will point to a spot below the actual top of the zone. 

One of my hobbies is drawing, so I have spent some time studying human proportion.  I have also measured the distance from the shoulders to the waistline on me and on family members and re-measured to find the midpoint in a normal batting stance.  It's a lot higher than most people think--generally right around the upper half of the solar plexus, often very near the bottom of the elbows, depending on how the arms are positioned.

3) Even though coaches have an excellent view of up vs. down, they don't always consider the depth of the strike zone. 

All balls are subject to gravity, so a potentially high pitch is closest to the strike zone as it passes the very back tip of the plate. If the bottom of the ball touches the top of the zone, which is higher than most people think it is, at the back of the plate, it is a strike. 

Similarly, when the top of the ball on a potentially low pitch nicks the bottom of the zone at the front of the plate, gravity will cause that ball to be well below the zone when the catcher receives it behind home plate.

For some reason, coaches whose teams are at bat tend to evaluate strikes high in the zone based on their elevation at the front of the zone and low strikes based on their elevation when received by the catcher.

So when I pretend not to hear a coach complain about a strike that was "practically at the letters," I silently rejoice at his affirmation of the accuracy of my call.

Here is a crazy idea, but one I have always wondered about.  I have not done much umpiring in my life which I consider a wise decision.  However I have spent countless hours behind the backstop watching pitchers.  

I really got the feeling I could see pitches better from behind the backstop than right behind the catcher.  I know I have seen balls and strikes that were called the opposite way. In fact I would bet on it.  The wider vision of things just makes it easier to see, especially when it comes to both sides of the plate.

Even if this were true, the other HP umpire responsibilities would make it impossible.  I'm sure good umpires would disagree with my theory.  But for me, seeing a larger picture makes it easier to see strikes and balls. At worse, I believe you can be at least as accurate as standing behind the catcher.  Once again, I understand I might be all wet and  that removing the HP umpire simply can't be done.

I emailed the Texas UIL baseball administrators concerning pitch count.  The response follows. 

Date: Friday, May 1, 2015 at 11:12 AM
To: Administrator <athletics@uiltexas.org>, Darryl Beasley <dbeasley@uiltexas.org>
Subject: Texas High school pitch count rules

Dear Sirs,

I am a parent of a Texas high school baseball pitcher. 

I am concerned with the current UIL rule in Texas that allows a pitcher to pitch one game per day.   

On page 24 of the 2014-2015 UIL Texas Baseball Manual it states

"A pitcher may pitch one game each day in an unlimited number of innings."

The NFHS has recognized that there is a need to set stricter guidelines for pitchers in the article "Focus on Health of Pitchers Continues in High School baseball" at

http://www.nfhs.org/articles/f...igh-school-baseball/.

I’ve also attached a study showing the risk factors of injuries to young pitchers.

Rarely do you see a MLB starting pitcher throw over 100 pitches in a game and there is usually a 4 to 5 day rest period between starts.  

I realize that coaches are busy managing the game but if the scorekeeper signals to the umpire that a pitcher has reached his maximum pitches the umpire can call a halt to the game for the pitcher to be replaced.

This pitch count needs to be strictly enforced to safeguard the health of high school pitchers.

I would recommend implementing a strict pitch count rule using recommendations from the American Sports Medicine Institute, one of the leading authorities on preventing pitching arm injuries caused by high pitch counts in baseball.   

Pitch Count maximum

Pitcher ages 13-14:   76 pitches/game max, 2 games/week max.

Pitcher ages 15-16:   91 pitches/game max, 2 games/week max.

Pitcher ages 17-18:   106 pitches/game max, 2 games/week max.

Rest and recovery times

Ages 13-14

30 pitches: 1 day rest

36 pitches: 2 days rest

56 pitches: 3 days rest

70 pitches: 4 days rest

Ages 15-16

25 pitches: 1 day rest

38 pitches: 2 days rest

62 pitches: 3 days rest

77 pitches: 4 days rest

Ages 17-18

27 pitches: 1 day rest

45 pitches: 2 days rest

62 pitches: 3 days rest

89 pitches: 4 days rest

Regards,

Thank you for your suggestion concerning UIL rules.

This is an issue that the UIL Medical Advisory Committee is actively studying.

The Legislative Council of UIL makes and votes on all UIL rules. The Legislative Council is a peer elected group of school superintendents. Any new activity or rule must be presented to the Council who will pass or reject the proposal.

Any person is eligible to appear before the Council to make a proposal. If you are interested in making a proposal to the Council please contact the UIL office (512-471-5883).

Information about the rule change process and an online rule change proposal submission form are available on the UIL website:

http://www.uiltexas.org/policy/amending-rules

If you have other questions or need additional information, please contact me.

Sincerely,

Mark Cousins, Ph.D.
Director of Athletics
University Interscholastic League
512-471-5883 (phone)
512-471-6589 (fax)
www.uiltexas.org

https://www.facebook.com/txuil

http://twitter.com/uiltexas

Originally Posted by Back foot slider:

Let's not derail the OP thread here.  For the most part, I don't think the high pitch counts are due to tiny strike zones.

I agree, and I’ll try to respond directly to the OP.

Originally Posted by MikeVT:

…Gave a fluff answer and assured us he would not put the kids in harms way to win games….

What you need to do is find out as nearly as possible what that coach’s idea of “in harm’s way” is, then you can do whatever’s necessary to gather up the data needed to monitor it, and respond accordingly.

The following goes into effect in Colorado next year. These regulations were voted in to start this year, but several of the smaller schools were able to pass an amendment putting it off until 2016:

Please Note: For 2016, Colorado pitching regulations will go from innings to a pitch count. The following will be the rule used for 2016 and there will be no innings rule.

Additionally, no pitcher may throw more than 60 pitches over two days. If they throw 60

pitches in two days, there will be one day of required rest. No sub-varsity pitcher can throw more than 40 pitches over two days. That limit will result in one day of mandated rest.

A pitcher will be allowed to finish a batter if they hit the limit (110 in varsity play; 85 in sub-varsity) during an at-bat, but must exit the game after the hitter.

It is strongly recommended that once a pitcher is removed, consideration be given to what

position he is assigned once he is done pitching. Consideration should be given to the

throwing requirement of the fielding position once the pitcher vacates the mound.

***It is recommended that schools, coaches, and players familiarize themselves with these rules, and when possible, implement these this season for the health and welfare of the pitcher.

Please see the pitch count document on the website for more information. This information will be available after March 1.